Serious Question About U.S. Immigration(NRR)

RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
edited March 2006 in Strut Central
For the last two days here in Dallas there have been peaceful protests by Mexicans and Mexican-Americans against the bill that will make being an Illegal Alien a felony. These follow the protests in L.A. this past weekend.Personally I'm VERY MUCH against this bill.But I do have one very serious question that I just can't seem to figure out a good answer to so I'll pose it to the wide spectrum of opinions here on SS.At what point can you no longer allow new citizens into a country and how do you decide when that time is?? I have to believe that at some point the economy will suffer, the level of education and health care, that while not perfect now, will get even worse if 10, 20, 100 million more people are entered into the mix.So how does a Government of any country decide when immigration has reached the limits and how do you prevent it from happening, especially if it's being done illegally??Disclaimer: This is a hypothetical question....there is no need to bring race and/or ethnicity into the discussion. The answer to the question would be the same even if we were talking about reptillian humanoids from Mars.
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  • crossingscrossings 946 Posts
    i have a strange feeling that the answer to this question lies in jessica alba's bum...

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts
    There is no right answer to that question.

    But with the rise in education and health care costs. It's something that needs to be looked at.

    This will be a hugeeee issue in the future. It's only just beginning now. I'm just glad it's not me trying to make everyone happy.

  • GuzzoGuzzo 8,611 Posts
    8 pager

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    i have a strange feeling that the answer to this question lies in jessica alba's bum...

    If they all look like Jessica Alba there will be no problems...they can all live at my house and I'll personally support them.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts
    i have a strange feeling that the answer to this question lies in jessica alba's bum...

    HAHA, It probably could solve all our worldly problems if used for good and not evil...

  • meatyogremeatyogre 2,080 Posts
    there can not be a good answer to this question.

    The situation in Mexico is fucked. Mexico has been run by such corrupt government for so long, its just too damn hard to try and get by down there. Vincente Fox says he's trying to make a change, but it would be like trying to overturn democracy in this country, cuz the roots of the problems are just too damn deep. Until "illegal" immagrants can find work and a comfortable positions to raise their children and make their own lives better in their home countries, people are going to flock to this country and other "better off" places forever. Whether they have to come "illegally" or not.

  • Imperial_MaoImperial_Mao 1,119 Posts
    The answer to the question would be the same even if we were talking about reptillian humanoids from Mars.

    Except they are all ready here....

  • grandpa_shiggrandpa_shig 5,799 Posts
    dude. this is the internet. no serious questions allowed.

  • DJ_EnkiDJ_Enki 6,473 Posts
    At what point can you no longer allow new citizens into a country and how do you decide when that time is?? I have to believe that at some point the economy will suffer, the level of education and health care, that while not perfect now, will get even worse if 10, 20, 100 million more people are entered into the mix.

    I'm sure there's a calculus for deciding the tipping point, and I'm quite sure I don't know what it is. I agree, though: There's some point at which a country becomes overpopulated, which leads to all sorts of problems.

    As for how to handle immigration, fuck if I know. It's such a complex issue that I don't think any sort of pat answer is possible. It's also worth pointing out that pragmatically speaking, there's no way to seal off the borders of a country as large as the US. Crack down all you want, people are still going to enter the country whether you like it or not, so I do think any immigration policy is going to have to address this fact and not simply be some empty proclamation of America's "closed borders" or anything to that effect.

  • hammertimehammertime 2,389 Posts
    this thread is waaay too civil. Y'all feeling alright today?

  • thropethrope 750 Posts
    i hate mexicans and blacks. and whites too!! oh yeah, and especially jews!!!!
    that better?



    edit: i forgot the key for a soulstrut fight.

  • crossingscrossings 946 Posts

    So how does a Government of any country decide when immigration has reached the limits and how do you prevent it from happening, especially if it's being done illegally??


    there is no logical explanation to a wrongful act... this whole decision is both illogical and just plain wrong. just another attempt by the USA's falling empire to establish itself as the 'most desired country in the world'... after another decade or so, our country will be on the other side of the coin... sturuggling and ignored by bigger more powerful nations.. god knows we deserve it.

  • grandpa_shiggrandpa_shig 5,799 Posts
    this question is ridiculous. this country is so far from reaching its limit on over-population in our lifetime and it is one of the key talking points folks will use to scare you into tightening the borders.

    put it into perspective. japan, a country a fraction the size of texas has 6 times the people living on it.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    this question is ridiculous. this country is so far from reaching its limit on over-population in our lifetime and it is one of the key talking points folks will use to scare you into tightening the borders.

    put it into perspective. japan, a country a fraction the size of texas has 6 times the people living on it.

    I don't think having enough room, land-wise, is an issue, we can certainly "fit" a few billion people in the U.S.

  • i believe it is possible to be against illegal immigration and not be racist. if it were millions of canadians streamy across the border i would feel the same way. BUT the current law is misguided as are far too many of our laws, especially with the current admin. under the new law doctors couldn't treat illegals at all etc.

  • bassiebassie 11,710 Posts
    it is possible to be against illegal immigration and not be racist. if it were millions of canadians streamy across the border i would feel the same way.


    ????
    what race are we?

  • GuzzoGuzzo 8,611 Posts
    it is possible to be against illegal immigration and not be racist. if it were millions of canadians streamy across the border i would feel the same way.


    ????
    what race are we?

    reptilian

  • grandpa_shiggrandpa_shig 5,799 Posts
    if space isnt the issue what is?

    excuse me for using the same example, but japan functions with such efficiency in spite of their space problems. and they are products of us occupation.

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts

    Personally I'm VERY MUCH against this bill.


    me too....but I also think Bush's plan is total bunk.

    However, my issue with illegal immigration stems from the fact that the biggest proponent of allowing 'guest workers' and undocumented workers period are the same folks who spent years successfully breaking the back of Union Labor in the US. 'guest Worker' in my eyes in shorthand for 'disposable labor', and it undermines the notion of fair wages for work delivered for existing citizens and those immigrating through proper channels. The notion that there are 'jobs that Americans won't do' is ridiculous. Pay a fairer wage, a livable wage on shitty jobs, people will do them. Allow the corporate interests to make the decisions on this, and our borders will remain porous and insecure and they will be able to exploit undocumented and ilegal residents to their hearts content, which just ratchets up the tension between existing communities as well.

    And say you grant those here illegally immunity. What message does that send to the governments in Mexico and Central America? keep screwing over your poorest folks and We'll cover all the costs? And all this with an administration who thinks we can just keep sinking money into shit without raising taxes? And how do people here illegally contribute taxes? Why do we even have immigration laws if the policy is basically not to enforce them?

    This issue gets misconstrued by Progressives and Conservatives alike, and is oversimplified by the politicians in the House and Senate. There will be a lot of talk, and virtually no reform let alone resolution.

  • SwayzeSwayze 14,705 Posts
    The ansewr is obvious.



    Invade Mexico!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • JazoistJazoist 78 Posts
    Could it be merely a political decision ? Just a matter of keeping the conservaties in and the socialists out.
    In my country 80% of immigrants vote for the socialist parties. Maybe because they're working class. Economically, there's a need for these people, I guess. Put simply.


  • Personally I'm VERY MUCH against this bill.


    me too....but I also think Bush's plan is total bunk.

    However, my issue with illegal immigration stems from the fact that the biggest proponent of allowing 'guest workers' and undocumented workers period are the same folks who spent years successfully breaking the back of Union Labor in the US. 'guest Worker' in my eyes in shorthand for 'disposable labor', and it undermines the notion of fair wages for work delivered for existing citizens and those immigrating through proper channels. The notion that there are 'jobs that Americans won't do' is ridiculous. Pay a fairer wage, a livable wage on shitty jobs, people will do them. Allow the corporate interests to make the decisions on this, and our borders will remain porous and insecure and they will be able to exploit undocumented and ilegal residents to their hearts content, which just ratchets up the tension between existing communities as well.

    And say you grant those here illegally immunity. What message does that send to the governments in Mexico and Central America? keep screwing over your poorest folks and We'll cover all the costs? And all this with an administration who thinks we can just keep sinking money into shit without raising taxes? And how do people here illegally contribute taxes? Why do we even have immigration laws if the policy is basically not to enforce them?

    This issue gets misconstrued by Progressives and Conservatives alike, and is oversimplified by the politicians in the House and Senate. There will be a lot of talk, and virtually no reform let alone resolution.


    Cosign. There was a story on the CBS network news last night that quoted figures that something like 25% of the workers that install insulation in new houses are undocumented, as are 29% of the sheetrockers in the same industry. Some big companies are making a mint on undocumented day labor...

  • CosmoCosmo 9,768 Posts
    The ansewr is obvious.



    Invade Mexico!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Didn't we already do that in 1846?

  • GuzzoGuzzo 8,611 Posts
    Some big companies are making a mint on undocumented day labor...

    very true, the illegal workforce is a blessing to big business and a great scapegoat for everyone else.

    About a year or so ago I remember a story where the INS went into Wal-marts nationwide and arrsted the undocumented workers after finishing their shifts.

    Wal-mart claimed to have no knowledge of these hiring practices

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts
    if space isnt the issue what is?

    excuse me for using the same example, but japan functions with such efficiency in spite of their space problems. and they are products of us occupation.

    Of course it's not space. You can fit the worlds population into Texas and it would be like living in NYC.

    It most likely stems from people scurred about jobs & unemployment.

    Whatever... This is going to be the hot topic in the next election. Wait for both sides to suck up big time...

  • grandpa_shiggrandpa_shig 5,799 Posts
    then it should be less of a question about immigration and more of a question about our faith in capitalism.

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts
    i believe it is possible to be against illegal immigration and not be racist. if it were millions of canadians streamy across the border i would feel the same way. BUT the current law is misguided as are far too many of our laws, especially with the current admin. under the new law doctors couldn't treat illegals at all etc.

    That's the big problem, for many people this IS a race issue. Race, assimilation, class, labor, political affiliation, national security....all these things are playing into people's fears and misconceptions, and resulting in a huge growing national mess.

  • JazoistJazoist 78 Posts

    Personally I'm VERY MUCH against this bill.


    me too....but I also think Bush's plan is total bunk.

    However, my issue with illegal immigration stems from the fact that the biggest proponent of allowing 'guest workers' and undocumented workers period are the same folks who spent years successfully breaking the back of Union Labor in the US. 'guest Worker' in my eyes in shorthand for 'disposable labor', and it undermines the notion of fair wages for work delivered for existing citizens and those immigrating through proper channels. The notion that there are 'jobs that Americans won't do' is ridiculous. Pay a fairer wage, a livable wage on shitty jobs, people will do them. Allow the corporate interests to make the decisions on this, and our borders will remain porous and insecure and they will be able to exploit undocumented and ilegal residents to their hearts content, which just ratchets up the tension between existing communities as well.

    And say you grant those here illegally immunity. What message does that send to the governments in Mexico and Central America? keep screwing over your poorest folks and We'll cover all the costs? And all this with an administration who thinks we can just keep sinking money into shit without raising taxes? And how do people here illegally contribute taxes? Why do we even have immigration laws if the policy is basically not to enforce them?

    This issue gets misconstrued by Progressives and Conservatives alike, and is oversimplified by the politicians in the House and Senate. There will be a lot of talk, and virtually no reform let alone resolution.


    Cosign. There was a story on the CBS network news last night that quoted figures that something like 25% of the workers that install insulation in new houses are undocumented, as are 29% of the sheetrockers in the same industry. Some big companies are making a mint on undocumented day labor...

    Undocumented labour is a blessing, cause it's cheap. In fact it's hypocrite to suggest the opposite or to keep poor folks out. If someone can't work for cheap they will dissapear by theirselves. Probably the only way to compete with China. I don't really care, but in fact it's likely for something to happen in USA in order to save that country. If I would live there, I would be worried I guess. Sorry to be negative about it.


  • Personally I'm VERY MUCH against this bill.


    me too....but I also think Bush's plan is total bunk.

    However, my issue with illegal immigration stems from the fact that the biggest proponent of allowing 'guest workers' and undocumented workers period are the same folks who spent years successfully breaking the back of Union Labor in the US. 'guest Worker' in my eyes in shorthand for 'disposable labor', and it undermines the notion of fair wages for work delivered for existing citizens and those immigrating through proper channels. The notion that there are 'jobs that Americans won't do' is ridiculous. Pay a fairer wage, a livable wage on shitty jobs, people will do them. Allow the corporate interests to make the decisions on this, and our borders will remain porous and insecure and they will be able to exploit undocumented and ilegal residents to their hearts content, which just ratchets up the tension between existing communities as well.

    And say you grant those here illegally immunity. What message does that send to the governments in Mexico and Central America? keep screwing over your poorest folks and We'll cover all the costs? And all this with an administration who thinks we can just keep sinking money into shit without raising taxes? And how do people here illegally contribute taxes? Why do we even have immigration laws if the policy is basically not to enforce them?

    This issue gets misconstrued by Progressives and Conservatives alike, and is oversimplified by the politicians in the House and Senate. There will be a lot of talk, and virtually no reform let alone resolution.


    Cosign. There was a story on the CBS network news last night that quoted figures that something like 25% of the workers that install insulation in new houses are undocumented, as are 29% of the sheetrockers in the same industry. Some big companies are making a mint on undocumented day labor...

    Undocumented labour is a blessing, cause it's cheap. In fact it's hypocrite to suggest the opposite or to keep poor folks out. If someone can't work for cheap they will dissapear by theirselves. Probably the only way to compete with China. I don't really care, but in fact it's likely for something to happen in USA in order to save that country. If I would live there, I would be worried I guess. Sorry to be negative about it.


    Cheap labor is only a blessing for the people doing the hiring/profiting.

  • grandpa_shiggrandpa_shig 5,799 Posts

    Personally I'm VERY MUCH against this bill.


    me too....but I also think Bush's plan is total bunk.

    However, my issue with illegal immigration stems from the fact that the biggest proponent of allowing 'guest workers' and undocumented workers period are the same folks who spent years successfully breaking the back of Union Labor in the US. 'guest Worker' in my eyes in shorthand for 'disposable labor', and it undermines the notion of fair wages for work delivered for existing citizens and those immigrating through proper channels. The notion that there are 'jobs that Americans won't do' is ridiculous. Pay a fairer wage, a livable wage on shitty jobs, people will do them. Allow the corporate interests to make the decisions on this, and our borders will remain porous and insecure and they will be able to exploit undocumented and ilegal residents to their hearts content, which just ratchets up the tension between existing communities as well.

    And say you grant those here illegally immunity. What message does that send to the governments in Mexico and Central America? keep screwing over your poorest folks and We'll cover all the costs? And all this with an administration who thinks we can just keep sinking money into shit without raising taxes? And how do people here illegally contribute taxes? Why do we even have immigration laws if the policy is basically not to enforce them?

    This issue gets misconstrued by Progressives and Conservatives alike, and is oversimplified by the politicians in the House and Senate. There will be a lot of talk, and virtually no reform let alone resolution.


    Cosign. There was a story on the CBS network news last night that quoted figures that something like 25% of the workers that install insulation in new houses are undocumented, as are 29% of the sheetrockers in the same industry. Some big companies are making a mint on undocumented day labor...

    Undocumented labour is a blessing, cause it's cheap. In fact it's hypocrite to suggest the opposite or to keep poor folks out. If someone can't work for cheap they will dissapear by theirselves. Probably the only way to compete with China. I don't really care, but in fact it's likely for something to happen in USA in order to save that country. If I would live there, I would be worried I guess. Sorry to be negative about it.


    Cheap labor is only a blessing for the people doing the hiring/profiting.

    dont forget about the consumer
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