I'm only looking at it from the perspective of having grown up with respect for my fellow man
Maybe ugly characatures are a pasttime in their country. Maybe they have each race done for different holidays. It could have nothing to do with respect at all. Perhaps not making an ugly characurized fictional holiday character out of a race is a sign of disrespect there. You have no idea.
I'm playing the devil's advocate a bit here, but my point is that mistakes are frequently made, particularly dealing with cultural differences, by jumping to conclusions.
I'm only looking at it from the perspective of having grown up with respect for my fellow man
Maybe ugly characatures are a pasttime in their country. Maybe they have each race done for different holidays. It could have nothing to do with respect at all. Perhaps not making an ugly characurized fictional holiday character out of a race is a sign of disrespect there. You have no idea.
I'm playing the devil's advocate a bit here, but my point is that mistakes are frequently made, particularly dealing with cultural differences, by jumping to conclusions.
Fair enough, but my man tiger_blurp is Aruban/Dutch and has lived in both the States and in Holland. He did nothing but come into this thread and confirm the suspicions that many of us had: that shit ain't sweet for people of color in Holland due to attitudes being displayed by several white DutchStrutters here.
Fair enough, but my man tiger_blurp is Aruban/Dutch and has lived in both the States and in Holland. He did nothing but come into this thread and confirm the suspicions that many of us had: that shit ain't sweet for people of color in Holland due to attitudes being displayed by several white DutchStrutters here.
I agree. I think that the general conclusions are highly likely to be close to accurate and I wasn't disputing t_b at all. I was just directing it to some of the more heated people that sometimes it's best to just calm down, take a step back, and dig a little deeper before condemning a whole country (or any group, for that matter).
I was just directing it to some of the more heated people that sometimes it's best to just calm down, take a step back, and dig a little deeper before condemning a whole country (or any group, for that matter).
I'm not condemning a whole country, I'm reacting with disgust to the person who tried to explain Dutch involvement in slavery as "not racist" because it was motivated by greed, even going so far as to point out the innovation of stacking slaves lengthwise to double capacity, at the same time doubling fatalities but increasing profits, as if this point could be anything less than universally NAUSEATING - my reaction to cavalier and dismissive attitudes towards slavery has nothing to do with the American perspective. I grew up surrounded by racists - it was my own beliefs and experiences that ensured I did not fall in line with the "traditional" or common bigoted culture, so I don't see that as any sort of excuse. It's not the topic or even so much the tradition itself that has me fired up, it's the personal statements made by people in this thread that I am talking about, and no claim of cultural heritage is going to alter the sickening reaction I had to those comments.
Hot damn this thread is fucked. A couple of the Dutch heads have put forth some of the most offensive and disturbing statements I have ever seen around here. Telling people to "lighten up" over this shit? You are completely bigoted and blissfully ignorant of it. Pathetic.
what the fuck. ugh.
saying though. Aren't Afrikaaners of Dutch descent?
This Grafwritah chap made the first smart remarks here.
One of these days I'm coming over to sue this show, I could be missing the point but I find it honestly degrading and offensive towards black people. But if you'll excuse me now, I have to receive my daily spanking for being part of the white race. Tada.
Ummm...no, it's not. Why do so many Europeans seem to be in such a serious state of denial? I don't think being shocked and/or disgusted at the continued use of blackface as family entertainment in the 21st century, and hearing it justified by saying "ooh but none of the negroes protest!" is getting "PC" - I think it's common sense. At least white Americans tend to acknowledge the racism in our society, both past & present...seems like many of the Dutch want to practice denial to the point of being absolutely ludicrious. "He's black from the chimney!" uh, ok, that explains it. "slavery was just a way to make a quick buck!" oh, thanks, glad to know race had nothing to do with it. Pathetic.
while soulstrut does get waaaaay too PC on race issues sometimes this is one that I think is fairly hardcore and pretty blatant.
I mean were talking about blackface, denial of racism in the slavetrade and the acceptance of such stereotypes like black people being stupid shiftless and oversexed.
I'm all for the death of PC shit but this ain't just some politically correct run of the mill stuff
I'm black and I live in Amsterdam and hate that shit!!
The problem is that most of the people start believing that it is a holiday for children. Perpetuating the role that black people are put on this earth for your mere entertainment. I've had endless discussion about this zwarte piet stuff. I don't want a ban on Sinterklaas. I just want zwarte piet to be gone. The unbelievable part is that they don't want to change that because it's part of the Dutch tradition.
I'm not on a crusade or in a protest march but anyone who asks me what I think of this Zwarte piet stuff will know that I just don't like that shite/ But let's kill the noise man it's almost 2006. Let the guru talk some records so I can lurk in peace
PS: Any Amsterdam Strutters going to the Duivel tonight? I'm gonna weather the cold and sip on a Duvel.
Cot Damn! 75 replies so far... well i just got back from my swarte pietless xmas with the Dutch inlaws and was surprised to see this thread still going strong, its good to know that im not alone in my disgust with this bullshit,
I'm black and I live in Amsterdam and hate that shit!!
The problem is that most of the people start believing that it is a holiday for children. Perpetuating the role that black people are put on this earth for your mere entertainment. I've had endless discussion about this zwarte piet stuff. I don't want a ban on Sinterklaas. I just want zwarte piet to be gone. The unbelievable part is that they don't want to change that because it's part of the Dutch tradition.
I'm not on a crusade or in a protest march but anyone who asks me what I think of this Zwarte piet stuff will know that I just don't like that shite/ But let's kill the noise man it's almost 2006. Let the guru talk some records so I can lurk in peace
PS: Any Amsterdam Strutters going to the Duivel tonight? I'm gonna weather the cold and sip on a Duvel.
I'm white and I live in Amsterdam and hate that shit!!
I just want zwarte piet to be gone.
Nope, Im not in the Duivel tonight. Let do a Duivel-Amsterdam-Soulstrut-evening!
Once again, somewhat playing the Devil's Advocate here.
People bring up blackface like it's genocide or something. While in an American context I agree it's in poor taste given the history of it, this isn't in American context. They don't have that history so it doesn't make sense to persecute them for it.
For instance, people often play roles in movies or tv of something they actually are not. We'll say gay, for instance. Nobody would ever do blackface (in a play, most likely) in the US because it's taboo. But think about it - if you were doing something low budget in maybe a play, and it was a few decades ago before all the high tech stuff, if you strip away the American context of it it's entirely feasible to have someone do blackface to make it more "realistic," like a part of wardrobe. It could have ended up being a tradition just from that.
The negative aspect of blackface evolved in the US because of the accentuation of negative stereotypes using this method. Perhaps nobody in Holland ever used it in that fashion.
Once again, it is highly likely that it is what it looks like on the face, but you never know. Just keep in mind that you're talking about a completely different country with a different history.
denial of racism in the slavetrade and the acceptance of such stereotypes like black people being stupid shiftless and oversexed.
Ugh, I wanted to stay away from this thread. Dutch racism on blast!
Since SoulonIce states that so many of the European heads are in denial about this while white americans tend to be aware of racism, I have to put my weight on the "lose the Zwarte Piet" side. For the record: Zwarte Piet is like farting in public - it's rude, in bad taste and offensive and I hope it'll disappear soon. A watching eye from abroad may help Holland to realize we have to enter the 21st century and get rid of this kind of relic from a shady past and realise we can't play innocent about it. On Soulstrut most of the Dutch and Belgian dudes have stated they are "against it" though.
So far:
1000FM - against NZshadow (partly Dutch?) - against On the red clay - against (but possibly harmless) Macksteez - against Frankie Nipplez - against Tiger Blurp - against Strikeski - against Tabasko - against Plus: generique - against
VS
Lamont - in favor The prolific Miekol with 5 posts - very confused/denial/inappropriate "historical goodies" Pokester - in favor (or doesn't care?)
Lamont, cosign on "Raymann is laat". That show has been killing it for years now. Isn't the DJ for that show member of Soulstrut?
And yeah, I would like to buy Amsterdam soulstrutters a beer in De Duivel. When?
I'm not in favor it's a problem that the dutch and flemish people must solve them self. There are much bigger problems...to be solved in Holland and Belgium regarding rasicm.
Comments
Maybe ugly characatures are a pasttime in their country. Maybe they have each race done for different holidays. It could have nothing to do with respect at all. Perhaps not making an ugly characurized fictional holiday character out of a race is a sign of disrespect there. You have no idea.
I'm playing the devil's advocate a bit here, but my point is that mistakes are frequently made, particularly dealing with cultural differences, by jumping to conclusions.
Fair enough, but my man tiger_blurp is Aruban/Dutch and has lived in both the States and in Holland. He did nothing but come into this thread and confirm the suspicions that many of us had: that shit ain't sweet for people of color in Holland due to attitudes being displayed by several white DutchStrutters here.
I agree. I think that the general conclusions are highly likely to be close to accurate and I wasn't disputing t_b at all. I was just directing it to some of the more heated people that sometimes it's best to just calm down, take a step back, and dig a little deeper before condemning a whole country (or any group, for that matter).
I'm not condemning a whole country, I'm reacting with disgust to the person who tried to explain Dutch involvement in slavery as "not racist" because it was motivated by greed, even going so far as to point out the innovation of stacking slaves lengthwise to double capacity, at the same time doubling fatalities but increasing profits, as if this point could be anything less than universally NAUSEATING - my reaction to cavalier and dismissive attitudes towards slavery has nothing to do with the American perspective. I grew up surrounded by racists - it was my own beliefs and experiences that ensured I did not fall in line with the "traditional" or common bigoted culture, so I don't see that as any sort of excuse. It's not the topic or even so much the tradition itself that has me fired up, it's the personal statements made by people in this thread that I am talking about, and no claim of cultural heritage is going to alter the sickening reaction I had to those comments.
saying though. Aren't Afrikaaners of Dutch descent?
Yes they are.
So is the word Apartheid.
One of these days I'm coming over to sue this show, I could be missing the point but I find it honestly degrading and offensive towards black people. But if you'll excuse me now, I have to receive my daily spanking for being part of the white race. Tada.
ok now we will talk about halloween vs. christians.... columbus day vs native americans....
Ummm...no, it's not. Why do so many Europeans seem to be in such a serious state of denial? I don't think being shocked and/or disgusted at the continued use of blackface as family entertainment in the 21st century, and hearing it justified by saying "ooh but none of the negroes protest!" is getting "PC" - I think it's common sense. At least white Americans tend to acknowledge the racism in our society, both past & present...seems like many of the Dutch want to practice denial to the point of being absolutely ludicrious.
"He's black from the chimney!" uh, ok, that explains it.
"slavery was just a way to make a quick buck!" oh, thanks, glad to know race had nothing to do with it.
Pathetic.
while soulstrut does get waaaaay too PC on race issues sometimes this is one that I think is fairly hardcore and pretty blatant.
I mean were talking about blackface, denial of racism in the slavetrade and the acceptance of such stereotypes like black people being stupid shiftless and oversexed.
I'm all for the death of PC shit but this ain't just some politically correct run of the mill stuff
The problem is that most of the people start believing that it is a holiday for children. Perpetuating the role that black people are put on this earth for your mere entertainment.
I've had endless discussion about this zwarte piet stuff.
I don't want a ban on Sinterklaas. I just want zwarte piet to be gone.
The unbelievable part is that they don't want to change that because it's part of the Dutch tradition.
I'm not on a crusade or in a protest march but anyone who asks me what I think of this Zwarte piet stuff will know that I just don't like that shite/
But let's kill the noise man it's almost 2006. Let the guru talk some records so I can lurk in peace
PS: Any Amsterdam Strutters going to the Duivel tonight?
I'm gonna weather the cold and sip on a Duvel.
75 replies so far... well i just got back from my swarte pietless xmas with the Dutch inlaws and was surprised to see this thread still going strong, its good to know that im not alone in my disgust with this bullshit,
happy new year guys.
I'm white and I live in Amsterdam and hate that shit!!
I just want zwarte piet to be gone.
Nope, Im not in the Duivel tonight.
Let do a Duivel-Amsterdam-Soulstrut-evening!
who's down?
Once again, somewhat playing the Devil's Advocate here.
People bring up blackface like it's genocide or something. While in an American context I agree it's in poor taste given the history of it, this isn't in American context. They don't have that history so it doesn't make sense to persecute them for it.
For instance, people often play roles in movies or tv of something they actually are not. We'll say gay, for instance.
Nobody would ever do blackface (in a play, most likely) in the US because it's taboo. But think about it - if you were doing something low budget in maybe a play, and it was a few decades ago before all the high tech stuff, if you strip away the American context of it it's entirely feasible to have someone do blackface to make it more "realistic," like a part of wardrobe. It could have ended up being a tradition just from that.
The negative aspect of blackface evolved in the US because of the accentuation of negative stereotypes using this method. Perhaps nobody in Holland ever used it in that fashion.
Once again, it is highly likely that it is what it looks like on the face, but you never know. Just keep in mind that you're talking about a completely different country with a different history.
Can't really mistake those, though.
Since SoulonIce states that so many of the European heads are in denial about this while white americans tend to be aware of racism, I have to put my weight on the "lose the Zwarte Piet" side. For the record: Zwarte Piet is like farting in public - it's rude, in bad taste and offensive and I hope it'll disappear soon. A watching eye from abroad may help Holland to realize we have to enter the 21st century and get rid of this kind of relic from a shady past and realise we can't play innocent about it. On Soulstrut most of the Dutch and Belgian dudes have stated they are "against it" though.
So far:
1000FM - against
NZshadow (partly Dutch?) - against
On the red clay - against (but possibly harmless)
Macksteez - against
Frankie Nipplez - against
Tiger Blurp - against
Strikeski - against
Tabasko - against
Plus: generique - against
VS
Lamont - in favor
The prolific Miekol with 5 posts - very confused/denial/inappropriate "historical goodies"
Pokester - in favor (or doesn't care?)
Lamont, cosign on "Raymann is laat". That show has been killing it for years now. Isn't the DJ for that show member of Soulstrut?
And yeah, I would like to buy Amsterdam soulstrutters a beer in De Duivel. When?
I've got a feeling that I might know some of you.
I don't recall Git Hyper being a SS member ? I could be wrong and damn I missed the 50% discount at Demonfuzz this month...
There are much bigger problems...to be solved in Holland and Belgium regarding rasicm.
Let's ban halloween
This is a good idea..maybe we could pick a date to have the turntables open for Dutch Strutters..and spin raers all night. sign me up!!