Jeff Chang's "Can't Stop, Won't Stop"

d_word

This is book is great. I'm 100 pages deep so far and it is well written and interesting. Big-up Hawaiians! aka Chang!Maybe there was a thread about this when it first came out, but I didn't see mention of it any time recently.Anyone read it?!

batmon

I'm reading it right now. I'm at the Jamacian Chapter now. Gang stories were

jazzercism

I really enjoyed it up to and including the Ice Cube chapter but after that it really fell apart, in my opinion. But you're right about the gang chapters, I feel like that's best research and writing in the whole book.

Phill_Most

For anybody who doesn't really know anything about the history of hip hop it's a good book. For those of us who already know most of it, I don't think it really covers much that hasn't been previously written about in other books and / or magazines. From what I remember it is well written, though, and the facts seem to be on point (although I believe I did have a problem with the accuracy of something in there... ahhh, who cares. ).

Imperial_Mao

Reading this right now as well, it's interesting and seems well researched and written so far.

mannybolone

For those of us who already know most of it, I don't think it really covers much that hasn't been previously written about in other books and / or magazines.

Who's covered the Bronx and Jamaican gang stuff as thoroughly? Or the LA chapter? I've heard people say what you're saying here Phill but if those other books/magazine articles exist, I don't know if I've seen them before and without sounding defensive in asking this: what publications are they?

I don't think EVERYTHING Jeff covers in the book is 100% original; that'd be rather impossible at this point in the game. But I do think he goes after a lot of stories that have never been told. Or maybe I'm just not that well read (which is entirely possible).

d_word

But I do think he goes after a lot of stories that have never been told.

I'll co-sign this, that's why I made this post in the first place.



I think Chang did great work bringing in knowledge and perspective that people with a background in hip-hop would find refreshing. At the same time - people entering it for the first time wouldn't be lost.



BTW - This is why I really like Kelefa Sanneh's writing too.





Oliver - your book is next on my list!

Swayze

For those of us who already know most of it, I don't think it really covers much that hasn't been previously written about in other books and / or magazines.

Who's covered the Bronx and Jamaican gang stuff as thoroughly? Or the LA chapter? I've heard people say what you're saying here Phill but if those other books/magazine articles exist, I don't know if I've seen them before and without sounding defensive in asking this: what publications are they?

I don't think EVERYTHING Jeff covers in the book is 100% original; that'd be rather impossible at this point in the game. But I do think he goes after a lot of stories that have never been told. Or maybe I'm just not that well read (which is entirely possible).

yeah the jamaica/bronx shit was . all the gang stuff, and the politics in jamaica...crazy.

would like to read something similar about how major scenes in other cities came up. that "rakim told me" book had some interesting shit in it, with good quick notes about oakland and miami.

Phill_Most

For those of us who already know most of it, I don't think it really covers much that hasn't been previously written about in other books and / or magazines.

Who's covered the Bronx and Jamaican gang stuff as thoroughly? Or the LA chapter? I've heard people say what you're saying here Phill but if those other books/magazine articles exist, I don't know if I've seen them before and without sounding defensive in asking this: what publications are they?

That's a good question, Oliver... to be honest, I'm not sure. I'd have to go back and reread every rap book and magazine I have (and many of them I don't even have anymore) to tell you for sure. I just know that as I read the book I didn't feel that any of it was anything that I didn't already know. But, then again, I am The Soulman???... I pretty much know everything there is to know about every aspect of hip hop history. You know I used to babysit Kool Herc, right?


To be honest, I'm sure there were probably some things in there that were news to me. But overall I just wasn't learning much. As opposed to the Foundation website, where the writing may not be great but they are dropping SO much unknown info on everything about the early days of Hip Hop. I'd like to see a similar site that deals with early rap scenes in other places (west coast, down south, etc.)

Phill_Most

BTW, O-Dub, I know you're familiar with all the early books on rap, like "Hip Hop" and the other one, "Rap Attack" or whatever it was called, right?

mannybolone

BTW, O-Dub, I know you're familiar with all the early books on rap, like "Hip Hop" and the other one, "Rap Attack" or whatever it was called, right?

Yeah but neither Hager nor Toop cover the ground Jeff does. Nor does Cross' "It's Not About a Salary" despite it being a groundbreaking book on L.A.'s hip-hop scene in its own right.

The thing is though: I think you're right Phill - you've been accumulating this kind of knowledge in the first person for years; it's not just history to you, it's life. So to that extent, I'm not sure if ANY hip-hop book is going to tell you stuff you don't already know unless it's something more like "Yes Yes Ya'll" which is all first person interviews that would obviously illuminate certain parts of history from a personal perspective that may not have been told before.

But I can say this with some confidence that Jeff's book talks about the Bronx gangs, about the rise and fall and revival of b-boying, about the history of L.A. hip-hop all in far more detail and context than any other hip-hop history book I've seen. And hell, I haven't even finished the whole book yet.

Jonny_Paycheck

For anybody who doesn't really know anything about the history of hip hop it's a good book. For those of us who already know most of it, I don't think it really covers much that hasn't been previously written about in other books and / or magazines. From what I remember it is well written, though, and the facts seem to be on point (although I believe I did have a problem with the accuracy of something in there... ahhh, who cares. ).

I too "already know most of it" but there was plenty of stuff that was either merely hearsay, passed down, passed over, or talked about from old heads. No one who has not spent a good portion of their time in NYC is gonna know this stuff unless they dig hard for it. It's spoken history, as far as I know there has never been this comprehensive of a book on hip-hop history, perhaps you could string together a bunch of ancient magazine articles from different publications but that isn't really a good source of info for the masses is it?

Phil, you know the "Catching Wreck In Brooklyn" tape?

faux_rillz

For those of us who already know most of it, I don't think it really covers much that hasn't been previously written about in other books and / or magazines.

Who's covered the Bronx and Jamaican gang stuff as thoroughly?

Well a lot of the information on Jamaican political gangs was already available in Laurie Gunst's book Born Fi Dead, but I agree with your larger point that there was a tremendous amount of material in Jeff's book--particularly the first third--that had never before seen print.

leisurebandit

BTW, O-Dub, I know you're familiar with all the early books on rap, like "Hip Hop" and the other one, "Rap Attack" or whatever it was called, right?

Yeah but neither Hager nor Toop cover the ground Jeff does. Nor does Cross' "It's Not About a Salary" despite it being a groundbreaking book on L.A.'s hip-hop scene in its own right.

The thing is though: I think you're right Phill - you've been accumulating this kind of knowledge in the first person for years; it's not just history to you, it's life. So to that extent, I'm not sure if ANY hip-hop book is going to tell you stuff you don't already know unless it's something more like "Yes Yes Ya'll" which is all first person interviews that would obviously illuminate certain parts of history from a personal perspective that may not have been told before.

But I can say this with some confidence that Jeff's book talks about the Bronx gangs, about the rise and fall and revival of b-boying, about the history of L.A. hip-hop all in far more detail and context than any other hip-hop history book I've seen. And hell, I haven't even finished the whole book yet.

I agree with all of this. It seems like Chang more than anyone before him really traced hip hop further back and more broadly and thoroughly, at least in a single effort. I mean he goes into so much detail on jamaica, 70s gang scene, crack cocaine scene, in relation to the origins of hip hop- I don't think anyone else has gone that far back with that much depth and diversity and integrated it all into a single study.

nutricious

"Rap Attack"

to me, "can't stop won't stop" is great exactly because it covers the society that hiphop came out of rather than focusing mostly on the artists, which "rap attack" did pretty well years before...

also highly recommended:


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/030681224X/qid=1134069470/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6232295-4885508?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

and on the jamaican gangs and their influence in new york:


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1841953865/qid=1134069532/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6232295-4885508?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

GenePontecorvo

ODub, Phil, whoever...how do y'all regard this one from back in the day?



At the time (a decade ago) it was one of the best pieces to come out on hiphop. Now you can get a copy on Amazon for $1.70.

faux_rillz

ODub, Phil, whoever...how do y'all regard this one from back in the day?



At the time (a decade ago) it was one of the best pieces to come out on hiphop. Now you can get a copy on Amazon for $1.70.

That book is garbage. Spend that $1.70 on a pack of gum or something.

batmon

I've seen a doc on public television on 60/70's nyc gangs which was real informative, as well as my own experiences witnessing crews in my hood. But Chang is mos definitely connecting the dots.

GenePontecorvo

ODub, Phil, whoever...how do y'all regard this one from back in the day?



At the time (a decade ago) it was one of the best pieces to come out on hiphop. Now you can get a copy on Amazon for $1.70.

That book is garbage. Spend that $1.70 on a pack of gum or something.

No need to. I paid full price ten years ago.

Just curious what cats thought about it. At the time, I thought it was decent. Been a minute since I read it though.

Garbage might be a strong word. Too cursory in its approach, fr?

faux_rillz

ODub, Phil, whoever...how do y'all regard this one from back in the day?



At the time (a decade ago) it was one of the best pieces to come out on hiphop. Now you can get a copy on Amazon for $1.70.

That book is garbage. Spend that $1.70 on a pack of gum or something.

No need to. I paid full price ten years ago.

Just curious what cats thought about it. At the time, I thought it was decent. Been a minute since I read it though.

Garbage might be a strong word. Too cursory in its approach, fr?

Eh, it's been ten years since I read it, but, yeah, I though lazy analysis and lack of substance were the main things wrong with it... and those are pretty big things. The author just seemed like a fanboy who wanted to write something about rap but didn't have anything to say. Lots of grand assertions that wouldn't be out of place in a paper written by a high school student--I still remember him saying something about "Mind of a Lunatic," like "Scarface's analysis would make a trained psychiatrist envious." Uggh!

GenePontecorvo

The author just seemed like a fanboy who wanted to write something about rap but didn't have anything to say. Lots of grand assertions that wouldn't be out of place in a paper written by a high school student--I still remember him saying something about "Mind of a Lunatic," like "Scarface's analysis would make a trained psychiatrist envious." Uggh!

fanboy....Source writer....it's all the same.



Fernando deserves an iota of credit for taking the time to trace the influences of dub. At the time, I was like "what the fuck is this 'dub' music?"



But enough about that stupid book. I am interested in reading Chang's book.

MikeFreedomRock

I remember liking it precisely because it wasn't like all the other rap books. He focused on small segments like x-men or the hit squad. Like you guys, though, I haven't picked it up in 10+ years, and the fact that you could remember some shit like what he said about scarface boggles my mind. I don't remember what I read yesterday...Damn trees

rootlesscosmo

BTW, O-Dub, I know you're familiar with all the early books on rap, like "Hip Hop" and the other one, "Rap Attack" or whatever it was called, right?

Yeah but neither Hager nor Toop cover the ground Jeff does. Nor does Cross' "It's Not About a Salary" despite it being a groundbreaking book on L.A.'s hip-hop scene in its own right.

The thing is though: I think you're right Phill - you've been accumulating this kind of knowledge in the first person for years; it's not just history to you, it's life. So to that extent, I'm not sure if ANY hip-hop book is going to tell you stuff you don't already know unless it's something more like "Yes Yes Ya'll" which is all first person interviews that would obviously illuminate certain parts of history from a personal perspective that may not have been told before.

But I can say this with some confidence that Jeff's book talks about the Bronx gangs, about the rise and fall and revival of b-boying, about the history of L.A. hip-hop all in far more detail and context than any other hip-hop history book I've seen. And hell, I haven't even finished the whole book yet.

Jeff told me once we was going to devote a whole BOOK to Ice Cube, specifically the Death Cert. LP. Wonder what happened to that idea...

mannybolone

Jeff told me once we was going to devote a whole BOOK to Ice Cube, specifically the Death Cert. LP. Wonder what happened to that idea...

2007 baby!

I'm just kidding.

If I recall, it's an idea that's still marinating though obviously, a lot of what he might have done with that book went into CSWS. He is at work on his next book project though I can't remember if I'm allowed to say anything about it or not. Suffice to say, it is hip-hop related but not in the way it's convenetionally discussed.

"Hip-Hop Gourmet Recipes!"

magnetic

I've been trying to find a certain book ever since i had seen it back in 83 it was a Hip Hop book that focused on the 4 elements (b-boying,graffiti,dj'in,and mc's),but since it was 83 i only cared about the first 3 aspects.I remember it had a lot of photos,i distinctly remember,them showing illustrations/sketches of the wildstyle graffiti,and i think they when into detail about turntable setups.

At the time it was too much for me to grasp i was just intrigued with the photos displaying name belt buckles and the pumas and fatlaces.It was quite a large book about 200-300 pager i might be totally off about this,everything seems bigger when you're younger.

Every other day me and my dancing friends would go to the bookshop to read/look at it,and the price for it seemed so much that we weren't even thinking that we could save up to buy it at the time.

Alright i know that was extremely vague,but i was just wondering which of the books out today i could source out that covers that era in such a manner?

I gonna try and get "Cant Stop,Wont Stop,is it still in circulation?

djanna

ODub, Phil, whoever...how do y'all regard this one from back in the day?



At the time (a decade ago) it was one of the best pieces to come out on hiphop. Now you can get a copy on Amazon for $1.70.

That book is garbage. Spend that $1.70 on a pack of gum or something.

No need to. I paid full price ten years ago.

Just curious what cats thought about it. At the time, I thought it was decent. Been a minute since I read it though.

Garbage might be a strong word. Too cursory in its approach, fr?

Eh, it's been ten years since I read it, but, yeah, I though lazy analysis and lack of substance were the main things wrong with it... and those are pretty big things. The author just seemed like a fanboy who wanted to write something about rap but didn't have anything to say. Lots of grand assertions that wouldn't be out of place in a paper written by a high school student--I still remember him saying something about "Mind of a Lunatic," like "Scarface's analysis would make a trained psychiatrist envious." Uggh!

that "fanboy" is my friend and he's very talented.

mannybolone

1) "Can't Stop, Won't Stop" came out this year. Yeah, it's still in circulation.

2) The book you're talking about sounds like Steven Hager's "Hip-Hop" but I don't think it was 300 pages: more like 150. And it's been out of print for years and goes for serious loot as a collector's item. You can get lucky though at a used book store that under prices it (just like records).

I've been trying to find a certain book ever since i had seen it back in 83 it was a Hip Hop book that focused on the 4 elements (b-boying,graffiti,dj'in,and mc's),but since it was 83 i only cared about the first 3 aspects.I remember it had a lot of photos,i distinctly remember,them showing illustrations/sketches of the wildstyle graffiti,and i think they when into detail about turntable setups.
At the time it was too much for me to grasp i was just intrigued with the photos displaying name belt buckles and the pumas and fatlaces.It was quite a large book about 200-300 pager i might be totally off about this,everything seems bigger when you're younger.
Every other day me and my dancing friends would go to the bookshop to read/look at it,and the price for it seemed so much that we weren't even thinking that we could save up to buy it at the time.
Alright i know that was extremely vague,but i was just wondering which of the books out today i could source out that covers that era in such a manner?
I gonna try and get "Cant Stop,Wont Stop,is it still in circulation?

magnetic

1) "Can't Stop, Won't Stop" came out this year. Yeah, it's still in circulation.

2) The book you're talking about sounds like Steven Hager's "Hip-Hop" but I don't think it was 300 pages: more like 150. And it's been out of print for years and goes for serious loot as a collector's item. You can get lucky though at a used book store that under prices it (just like records).

I've been trying to find a certain book ever since i had seen it back in 83 it was a Hip Hop book that focused on the 4 elements (b-boying,graffiti,dj'in,and mc's),but since it was 83 i only cared about the first 3 aspects.I remember it had a lot of photos,i distinctly remember,them showing illustrations/sketches of the wildstyle graffiti,and i think they when into detail about turntable setups.
At the time it was too much for me to grasp i was just intrigued with the photos displaying name belt buckles and the pumas and fatlaces.It was quite a large book about 200-300 pager i might be totally off about this,everything seems bigger when you're younger.
Every other day me and my dancing friends would go to the bookshop to read/look at it,and the price for it seemed so much that we weren't even thinking that we could save up to buy it at the time.
Alright i know that was extremely vague,but i was just wondering which of the books out today i could source out that covers that era in such a manner?
I gonna try and get "Cant Stop,Wont Stop,is it still in circulation?

Thanks for the info, kind sir .

anasarcasm

It seems like the reprint he's talking about is mixed in with a collection of other High Times articles..

From Jeff Chang's blog:

Last B-Boys Standing: The Arcs of Urban Style
In recent years, there has been a flood of hip-hop scholarship???some great, some not so great. For me, there are two foundational texts???Steven Hager's Hip-Hop (recently reprinted in Adventures In The Counterculture) and David Toop's Rap Attack???two foundational movies???Style Wars and Wild Style??? and three crucial books???Tricia Rose's Black Noise, Brian "B+" Cross's It's Not About A Salary: Rap, Race + Resistance in Los Angeles, and Bakari Kitwana's The Hip-Hop Generation.

http://www.cantstopwontstop.com/wreader.cfm

1) "Can't Stop, Won't Stop" came out this year. Yeah, it's still in circulation.

2) The book you're talking about sounds like Steven Hager's "Hip-Hop" but I don't think it was 300 pages: more like 150. And it's been out of print for years and goes for serious loot as a collector's item. You can get lucky though at a used book store that under prices it (just like records).

I've been trying to find a certain book ever since i had seen it back in 83 it was a Hip Hop book that focused on the 4 elements (b-boying,graffiti,dj'in,and mc's),but since it was 83 i only cared about the first 3 aspects.I remember it had a lot of photos,i distinctly remember,them showing illustrations/sketches of the wildstyle graffiti,and i think they when into detail about turntable setups.
At the time it was too much for me to grasp i was just intrigued with the photos displaying name belt buckles and the pumas and fatlaces.It was quite a large book about 200-300 pager i might be totally off about this,everything seems bigger when you're younger.
Every other day me and my dancing friends would go to the bookshop to read/look at it,and the price for it seemed so much that we weren't even thinking that we could save up to buy it at the time.
Alright i know that was extremely vague,but i was just wondering which of the books out today i could source out that covers that era in such a manner?
I gonna try and get "Cant Stop,Wont Stop,is it still in circulation?

noz

In recent years, there has been a flood of hip-hop scholarship???some great, some not so great. For me, there are two foundational texts???Steven Hager's Hip-Hop (recently reprinted in Adventures In The Counterculture) and David Toop's Rap Attack???two foundational movies???Style Wars and Wild Style??? and three crucial books???S>Tricia Rose's Black Noise/S>, Brian "B+" Cross's It's Not About A Salary: Rap, Race + Resistance in Los Angeles, and S>Bakari Kitwana's The Hip-Hop Generation/S>.

i have been looking for a copy of hip-hop in every used book store i've ever walked past for about the last eight years to no avail. the counterculture book has no pictures!

faux_rillz

ODub, Phil, whoever...how do y'all regard this one from back in the day?



At the time (a decade ago) it was one of the best pieces to come out on hiphop. Now you can get a copy on Amazon for $1.70.

That book is garbage. Spend that $1.70 on a pack of gum or something.

No need to. I paid full price ten years ago.

Just curious what cats thought about it. At the time, I thought it was decent. Been a minute since I read it though.

Garbage might be a strong word. Too cursory in its approach, fr?

Eh, it's been ten years since I read it, but, yeah, I though lazy analysis and lack of substance were the main things wrong with it... and those are pretty big things. The author just seemed like a fanboy who wanted to write something about rap but didn't have anything to say. Lots of grand assertions that wouldn't be out of place in a paper written by a high school student--I still remember him saying something about "Mind of a Lunatic," like "Scarface's analysis would make a trained psychiatrist envious." Uggh!

that "fanboy" is my friend and he's very talented.

Improper use of "you mad"

The only thing I've ever been mad at dude for was beguiling me into wasting an hour or two of my life with his terd of a book.

He may be a nice guy, but not everybody who feels like they have something to say needs to put it into a book.