I'm sorry, but your assertion that numbers are unassailibly pure is completely delusional. Real numbers can be cobbled together and recontextualized to the extent where they can support any and all bullshit lines of thinking. They are only as valid as the people who wield them.
Behold a big ass greasy oily solid steel monkey wrench from left field to further convolute this discussion and make you confused.
Which in of itself is totally taoist-that the entire world is a shade of grey ,there is no absolute evil ,nor absolute good
which in of itself is a nietzsche-ian concept,whom the nazi's pilfered convenient tidbits from from at will into their dogma.
so here it is..........
satmar hasidc's from billyberg [about 119,000 of them]
that hate zionism and vehemently hate the failed state of israel.
furthermore:
I believe there is a deep long standing cabal between the [super ultra wealthy] zionists and the 00000.1% illuminati [cia/pentagon/defense contractors,big oil,aerospace,big pharma,the illicit drug trade etc] and THEY WANT a NUCLEAR ARMED POWER/ outpost/police station in the middle east to keep things in check and could give a fuck about religion/jewish tradition at all.
The israeli army is an extension of the American defense cabal and is a perfect endless live test market for NEW advanced weaponry,surveillance,missile defense,assassination techniques etc.What better than an ongoing 67 year war to play with new death toys?
Think I am crazy?
well peep this:
"One such munition may be DIME, or dense inert metal explosive, a weapon recently developed by the United States army to create a powerful and lethal blast over a small area.
The munition is supposed to still be in the development stage and is not yet regulated. There are fears, however, that Israel may have received a green light from the US military to treat Gaza as a testing ground."
in the last big war they used white phosphorus and it is being used again:
"The most prominent controversy is over the use of shells containing white phosphorus, which causes horrific burns when it comes into contact with skin. Under international law, phosphorus is allowed as a smokescreen to protect soldiers but treated as a chemical weapon when used against civilians."
They use religion and the holocaust as a facade to continue this ongoing sad ritual which as dizzy points out encapsulates the stupidity of the human race.
Just a theory but there is a deeper design that what we are seeing on the surface.
Also I believe that the failed current state of Israel was founded in oppression and violence and will never be "right" or at peace because of this ill evil foul foundation.
There are not that many reporters in Gaza and they may not have access to check up on these reports. Apparently, foreign reporters must sign a form that absolves the Israeli forces of any responsibility for injuries or deaths to them. Amnesty International condemns the practice although it is also used by other armed forces. A Gazan journalist whose car was clearly marked on the hood TV was killed by an Israeli missile when it struck his vehicle.
There are also reports that Israel is using what are called DIME weapons in the conflict. These weapons are described as follows in Wikipedia:
Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME) is an experimental type of explosive that has a relatively small but effective blast radius. It is manufactured by producing a homogeneous mixture of an explosive material (such as phlegmatized HMX or RDX) and small particles of a chemically inert material such as tungsten. It is intended to limit the distance at which the explosion causes damage, to avoid collateral damage in warfare.
These weapons have been around for some time. Doctors working in Gaza reported that these weapons were probably used in past battles:
In July/August 2006, doctors in the Gaza Strip reported unusual wounds caused by Israel Defense Forces attacks against Palestinian targets, claiming that they were from a previously unknown weapons. A lab analysis of the metals found in the victims' bodies was reportedly "compatible with the hypothesis" that DIME weapons were involved. Israel denied possessing or using such weapons, and an Israeli military expert said that the wounds were consistent with ordinary explosives.[8] Dr. Mads Gilbert and Dr. Erik Fosse, working on wounded from the 2008ÔÇô2009 IsraelÔÇôGaza conflict, reported injuries that they believed were caused by some new type of weapon used by Israel, which they suspected were DIME bombs.
Gilbert and Fosse report similar cases in the present incursion by Israel.
Several sources describe these weapons as banned for example here and here.. There are no references by which this claim can be verified. The Wikipedia article on DIME does not mention the weapons are banned. Many other articles speak of the weapons as experimental which is certainly true. One source says they are not legally banned. The weapons cause horrible wounds in many cases but the ingredients used are also known to cause cancer in lab animals at least.
The reports of the weapons being banned may have their source in a statement by Palestinian Health undersecretary Youssef Resh who said at a press conference;
ÔÇ£Medical teams have found wounds on the bodies of those killed and injured that are caused by the banned DIME weapons. Gaza hospitals are bursting at the seams with dead and wounded. Children and women make up around 62 percent of those injured in the attacks.ÔÇØ
Even though the weapons may not be banned, if Israel is testing these weapons using Gazans as subjects this in itself is ethically and perhaps even legally questionable. Dr. Fosse is interviewed by Press TV on the appended You Tube video.
I believe there is a deep long standing cabal between the [super ultra wealthy] zionists and the 00000.1% illuminati .
thanks for this, sincerely.
I didn't really have the time/energy to respond to your hateful gibberish.
and now I don't have to.
(sigh of relief).
night folks!
dj it's obvious that you are way out of your element here.
this is the grown up table,if you want to perpetrate and regurgitate what was spoon fed to you 30 years ago by an institution : religious,mass media or educational then be my guest.
but i suggest you do some deep research before playing yourself as a knee jerk reactive moron or calling me "hateful" for pointing out nasty inconvenient realities.
"To both Jews and non-Jews the idea of an anti-Zionist Jew can sound like a contradiction in termsÔÇöan abuse of Rabbi HillelÔÇÖs most famous ethical aphorism, ÔÇ£If I am not for myself, who will be for me." But for Sam Weinstein, and for around 30 others, me included, tucked together in a small Jewish bloc at SaturdayÔÇÖs Gaza demo in London, standing against Israel is precisely what our background demands.
ÔÇ£I come from a Jewish tradition that has always fought for the underdog,ÔÇØ Sam told me as he unfurled a banner of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network in the sticky heat. ÔÇ£One that has fought for social justice because historically we were the ones getting killed by the state.ÔÇØ
On the 8th of July, Israel began Operation Protective Edge, a military offensive which used the kidnapping and murder of three boys in Kfar Etzion, a settlement in the occupied West Bank, as a pretext for the bombardment and invasion of the Gaza strip. Since then, over 80,000 Gazans have fled their homes and more than 500 have died, the majority of them civilians.
For British Jews and other diaspora communities that oppose this, the added tragedy is that it is done in our name, in the expectation of our full, unflinching support. Before the Second World War, there were many Jews that refused to accept political Zionism as an ideology. But since 1948, when the State of Israel was established, support for it has slowly become almost unanimous."
ÔÇ£The Israeli state identifies Israel with all Jews,ÔÇØ Naomi Winborne Idrissi, a co-founder of Jews for Boycotting Israel Goods said to me as we passed Downing Street. ÔÇ£It aims to speak for all of us. But we say Israel and Zionism does not represent us.ÔÇØ Refusing to be wrapped up in a cause that is blindly and destructively nationalistic is why we were demonstrating in our capacity as JewsÔÇöboth expressing our solidarity with Palestine and reclaiming ownership of our Jewish identity.
ThatÔÇÖs not an easy thing to do. For a long time when I was growing up I felt that Israel did represent me. In 2002, during the Second Intifada, I remember standing with 40,000 people in Trafalgar Square, swept up in a haze of blue and white flags, proud parents and slogans I only half understood. 2002 was also the year I was bar mitzvahed. Every Saturday morning for nearly 12 months I sat in my local synagogue in Essex to hear stale one-sided sermons from the man supposed to be teaching me about Jewish values, ethics and intellectual life. In my early teens I was a member of the Federation of Zionist Youth, one of thousands of emotionally charged and politically naive kids, sent on summer camps and tours across Israel to sample Israeli culture in the most santitised, ideologically curated way.
In Britain, the United Synagogue, the largest Jewish denomination, puts ÔÇ£the centrality of Israel in Jewish lifeÔÇØ as one of its defining values. The British Board of Deputies, the primary representative body of British Jews, claims in its constitution that it seeks to advance ÔÇ£IsraelÔÇÖs security, welfare and standingÔÇØ. Dwelling on these facts is the only way I can make sense of why otherwise decent people, family and friends, show their support for what seems so obviously and monumentally wrong.
ÔÇ£The direction in which Jewish and Israeli people are going in is terrifying,ÔÇØ said Dan Nemenyi, one of the younger demonstrators in the bloc. ÔÇ£The Jewish establishment in Britain remains as right wing as ever, and still holds power over schools, synagogues and the representation of the community. In Israel a solution needs to be found for the situation of the Palestinians. But the response is full military occupation and war whenever itÔÇÖs needed.ÔÇØ
i sincerely have trouble seeing an argument you can make supporting israel. the 'we are defending ourselves, hamas has to go at all costs' shit makes zero sense. they defeat hamas, then what? you killed enough people to engender another generation of resentment and profound hatred. you calm it down for a moment, great. you're still occupying territory that the rest of the world agrees doesn't belong to you. 2 states, remove blockades, stop making yourself a target through provocation and show some fucking respect. dj rootless, "if israel listened to the rest of the world" they might be a little more humble about the 'our lives are more important than yours' attitude. it's sickening.
I'm sorry, but your assertion that numbers are unassailibly pure is completely delusional. Real numbers can be cobbled together and recontextualized to the extent where they can support any and all bullshit lines of thinking. They are only as valid as the people who wield them.
I'm not sure how hundreds of dead people is a lie. It seems that the issues of fault and blame are more important to you. 700+ dead, thousands injured. Or are they just pretending?
Thousands of Palestinians took part in a demonstration after more than 15 women, children and United Nations staff were killed and around 200 injured when a UN shelter for those fleeing the Israeli bombing was hit.
The Israel Defence Forces insisted it had given the occupants of the shelter time to leave before shelling the area. But the UN flatly contradicted that, saying it had made repeated attempts to negotiate a window during which people could safely leave the area but none was granted. It said it had given the IDF precise co-ordinates of the location of the school.
The situation in Israel and Palestine continues to grow worse on both sides. First you had the savage murder of three Israeli teens. Then you had the retaliation burning of a Palestinian teenager. Now protests are erupting all over Israel and the world on both sides. Some of the coverage is focusing on statements made by Israeli lawmaker Ayelet Shaked on Facebook that day before three Israeli men went out and picked up Muhammad Abu Khdeir, 16, at random and burned him alive. ShakedÔÇÖs post calls Palestinians ÔÇ£little snakesÔÇØ and declares that ÔÇ£the entire Palestinian people is the enemy.ÔÇØ Now comments by Israeli Knesset member Ayelet Shaked has caused an international outcry including contributing to a continuing rift with Turkey. TurkeyÔÇÖs Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has denounced the remarks and denounced Israel in an analogy to the Nazi regime. The situation is clearly getting worse by the day in the region.
Ayelet Shaked is a member of the ultra-nationalist Jewish Home party, which is part of the ruling coalition. She is quoted as calling for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to ÔÇ£little snakes.ÔÇØ Shaked posted a screed on Facebook that various critics are denouncing as a call for genocide. Shaked reportedly stated: ÔÇ£They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists . . . are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists.ÔÇØ
The Facebook posting stated:
ÔÇ£Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.ÔÇØ
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
This is quite an illuminating analysis of the differing perspectives between, on one hand, Labour MPs in the UK and, on the other, commentators in the Arab media.
The situation in Israel and Palestine continues to grow worse on both sides. First you had the savage murder of three Israeli teens. Then you had the retaliation burning of a Palestinian teenager. Now protests are erupting all over Israel and the world on both sides. Some of the coverage is focusing on statements made by Israeli lawmaker Ayelet Shaked on Facebook that day before three Israeli men went out and picked up Muhammad Abu Khdeir, 16, at random and burned him alive. ShakedÔÇÖs post calls Palestinians ÔÇ£little snakesÔÇØ and declares that ÔÇ£the entire Palestinian people is the enemy.ÔÇØ Now comments by Israeli Knesset member Ayelet Shaked has caused an international outcry including contributing to a continuing rift with Turkey. TurkeyÔÇÖs Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has denounced the remarks and denounced Israel in an analogy to the Nazi regime. The situation is clearly getting worse by the day in the region.
Ayelet Shaked is a member of the ultra-nationalist Jewish Home party, which is part of the ruling coalition. She is quoted as calling for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to ÔÇ£little snakes.ÔÇØ Shaked posted a screed on Facebook that various critics are denouncing as a call for genocide. Shaked reportedly stated: ÔÇ£They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists . . . are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists.ÔÇØ
The Facebook posting stated:
ÔÇ£Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.ÔÇØ
again, I ask you: do you want to go link-for-link on the utterances of Israeli and Arab leaders?
I mean, two can obviously play at that game. I could just start flooding this thread with quotes from the ruling Hamas party's charter (viciously anti-Semitic), the recent Berlin imam's sermon (calling for the killing of Jews), or any number of videos of the Palestinians singing in the streets after a suicide bombing.
This is an Arab member of Israel's parliament who openly sides with terrorists. She's actually only the last in a line of Arab MKs who have called for Israel's dismantlement, have traveled to meet with Hezbollah, etc. (They serve in Israel's Parliament -- rather than, say, languish in a dungeon -- because Israel is a democracy.)
My point is: Israel is a pluralistic society. There's idiots like Shaked, and there's idiots like Zoabi. Both are extreme; neither is really representative.
i sincerely have trouble seeing an argument you can make supporting israel. the 'we are defending ourselves, hamas has to go at all costs' shit makes zero sense. they defeat hamas, then what? you killed enough people to engender another generation of resentment and profound hatred. you calm it down for a moment, great. you're still occupying territory that the rest of the world agrees doesn't belong to you. 2 states, remove blockades, stop making yourself a target through provocation and show some fucking respect. dj rootless, "if israel listened to the rest of the world" they might be a little more humble about the 'our lives are more important than yours' attitude. it's sickening.
rape_donkeys,
Your suggestion that Israel considers its lives more important is suspect. What army (Hamas, the IDF, the Marines) does not place the lives of its members above those of the enemy?
But I'll engage you on your peace settlement proposal: you suggest removing blockades as a solution. All I can say is that this is asking a tremendous amount of the Israeli leadership given the Gaza precedent since 2005. Israel evacuated Gaza in 2005, but maintains control over airspace and the coast. You'll hear that Gaza has been totally sealed, but the reality is more complicated: they have a border with Egypt that opens or closes at Egypt's whim (it was open under the Muslim Brothers, closed under Sisi) and Israel also allows humanitarian aid through a border crossing in northern Gaza. There's also a huge network of tunnels from Egypt through which things are smuggled.
But obviously the Gazans do not have full control of its borders which a sovereign state should have. That said, what limited shipments *have* gone through since 2005 have been devoted in large part to weapons smuggling and to building tunnels under Israeli civilian settlements for the purposes of attacking them. (The tunnels are a massive feat of engineering and have required tons and tons of building materiel; hardly any other infrastructure has been built by the Gazans.)
So limited border openings have led almost entirely to the construction of an infrastructure to attack Israel, and you would now ask Israel (or ask Israel's leaders to ask Israel's public), to *decrease* their control over Gaza's borders?
What the fuck kind of government would do that? Seriously, how do you sell that to your voters? "Sure, Gaza is run by a group that wants to actually replace our country with a Muslim state, and sure they've used what limited border control they had almost entirely to build a means to carry out this very wish....but let's just open up the borders a little more and see what happens. Maybe it'll turn out different this time?"
i sincerely have trouble seeing an argument you can make supporting israel. the 'we are defending ourselves, hamas has to go at all costs' shit makes zero sense. they defeat hamas, then what? you killed enough people to engender another generation of resentment and profound hatred. you calm it down for a moment, great. you're still occupying territory that the rest of the world agrees doesn't belong to you. 2 states, remove blockades, stop making yourself a target through provocation and show some fucking respect. dj rootless, "if israel listened to the rest of the world" they might be a little more humble about the 'our lives are more important than yours' attitude. it's sickening.
Your suggestion that Israel considers its lives more important is suspect. What army (Hamas, the IDF, the Marines) does not place the lives of its members and the civilians it fights for above those of the enemy?
But I'll engage you on your peace settlement proposal: you suggest removing blockades as a solution. All I can say is that this is asking a tremendous amount of the Israeli leadership given the Gaza precedent since 2005. Israel evacuated Gaza in 2005, but maintains control over airspace and the coast. You'll hear that Gaza has been totally sealed, but the reality is more complicated: they have a border with Egypt that opens or closes at Egypt's whim (it was open under the Muslim Brothers, closed under Sisi) and Israel also allows humanitarian aid through a border crossing in northern Gaza. There's also a huge network of tunnels from Egypt through which things are smuggled.
But obviously the Gazans do not have full control of its borders which a sovereign state should have. That said, what limited shipments *have* gone through since 2005 have been devoted in large part to weapons smuggling and to building tunnels under Israeli civilian settlements for the purposes of attacking them. (The tunnels are a massive feat of engineering and have required tons and tons of building materiel; hardly any other infrastructure has been built by the Gazans.)
So limited border openings have led almost entirely to the construction of an infrastructure to attack Israel, and you would now ask Israel (or ask Israel's leaders to ask Israel's public), to *decrease* their control over Gaza's borders?
What the fuck kind of government would do that? Seriously, how do you sell that to your voters? "Sure, Gaza is run by a group that wants to actually replace our country with a Muslim state, and sure they've used what limited border control they had almost entirely to build a means to carry out this very wish....but let's just open up the borders a little more and see what happens. Maybe it'll turn out different this time?"
Let's keep those borders closed, keep bombing and keep building and see how that turns out.
i sincerely have trouble seeing an argument you can make supporting israel. the 'we are defending ourselves, hamas has to go at all costs' shit makes zero sense. they defeat hamas, then what? you killed enough people to engender another generation of resentment and profound hatred. you calm it down for a moment, great. you're still occupying territory that the rest of the world agrees doesn't belong to you. 2 states, remove blockades, stop making yourself a target through provocation and show some fucking respect. dj rootless, "if israel listened to the rest of the world" they might be a little more humble about the 'our lives are more important than yours' attitude. it's sickening.
rape_donkeys,
Your suggestion that Israel considers its lives more important is suspect. What army (Hamas, the IDF, the Marines) does not place the lives of its members above those of the enemy?
But I'll engage you on your peace settlement proposal: you suggest removing blockades as a solution. All I can say is that this is asking a tremendous amount of the Israeli leadership given the Gaza precedent since 2005. Israel evacuated Gaza in 2005, but maintains control over airspace and the coast. You'll hear that Gaza has been totally sealed, but the reality is more complicated: they have a border with Egypt that opens or closes at Egypt's whim (it was open under the Muslim Brothers, closed under Sisi) and Israel also allows humanitarian aid through a border crossing in northern Gaza. There's also a huge network of tunnels from Egypt through which things are smuggled.
But obviously the Gazans do not have full control of its borders which a sovereign state should have. That said, what limited shipments *have* gone through since 2005 have been devoted in large part to weapons smuggling and to building tunnels under Israeli civilian settlements for the purposes of attacking them. (The tunnels are a massive feat of engineering and have required tons and tons of building materiel; hardly any other infrastructure has been built by the Gazans.)
So limited border openings have led almost entirely to the construction of an infrastructure to attack Israel, and you would now ask Israel (or ask Israel's leaders to ask Israel's public), to *decrease* their control over Gaza's borders?
What the fuck kind of government would do that? Seriously, how do you sell that to your voters? "Sure, Gaza is run by a group that wants to actually replace our country with a Muslim state, and sure they've used what limited border control they had almost entirely to build a means to carry out this very wish....but let's just open up the borders a little more and see what happens. Maybe it'll turn out different this time?"
I see the salient points you raise. But let's not forget about the Palestinians' rights as human beings and to self govern themselves in exclusive control of their own territory. Israel will, at some point need to concede nationhood for Palestine, so why not do that sooner than later? The whole political climate would then change, so it's impossible to say how the Palestinians will react and the intensity with which they will continue to fight Israel. You realize at the current trajectory this situation will become an even bigger clusterfuck?
What are the possibilities here?
>> Relinquish control of Gaza to Israelis and give the Palestinians complete control of the West Bank?
>> Palestinians retain control of Gaza and get all of the WB?
>> Palestinians retain control of Gaza and get a portion of the WB?
>> Palestinians only retain control of Gaza?
i sincerely have trouble seeing an argument you can make supporting israel. the 'we are defending ourselves, hamas has to go at all costs' shit makes zero sense. they defeat hamas, then what? you killed enough people to engender another generation of resentment and profound hatred. you calm it down for a moment, great. you're still occupying territory that the rest of the world agrees doesn't belong to you. 2 states, remove blockades, stop making yourself a target through provocation and show some fucking respect. dj rootless, "if israel listened to the rest of the world" they might be a little more humble about the 'our lives are more important than yours' attitude. it's sickening.
rape_donkeys,
Your suggestion that Israel considers its lives more important is suspect. What army (Hamas, the IDF, the Marines) does not place the lives of its members above those of the enemy?
But I'll engage you on your peace settlement proposal: you suggest removing blockades as a solution. All I can say is that this is asking a tremendous amount of the Israeli leadership given the Gaza precedent since 2005. Israel evacuated Gaza in 2005, but maintains control over airspace and the coast. You'll hear that Gaza has been totally sealed, but the reality is more complicated: they have a border with Egypt that opens or closes at Egypt's whim (it was open under the Muslim Brothers, closed under Sisi) and Israel also allows humanitarian aid through a border crossing in northern Gaza. There's also a huge network of tunnels from Egypt through which things are smuggled.
But obviously the Gazans do not have full control of its borders which a sovereign state should have. That said, what limited shipments *have* gone through since 2005 have been devoted in large part to weapons smuggling and to building tunnels under Israeli civilian settlements for the purposes of attacking them. (The tunnels are a massive feat of engineering and have required tons and tons of building materiel; hardly any other infrastructure has been built by the Gazans.)
So limited border openings have led almost entirely to the construction of an infrastructure to attack Israel, and you would now ask Israel (or ask Israel's leaders to ask Israel's public), to *decrease* their control over Gaza's borders?
What the fuck kind of government would do that? Seriously, how do you sell that to your voters? "Sure, Gaza is run by a group that wants to actually replace our country with a Muslim state, and sure they've used what limited border control they had almost entirely to build a means to carry out this very wish....but let's just open up the borders a little more and see what happens. Maybe it'll turn out different this time?"
I see the salient points you raise. But let's not forget about the Palestinians' rights as human beings and to self govern themselves in exclusive control of their own territory. Israel will, at some point need to concede nationhood for Palestine, so why not do that sooner than later? The whole political climate would then change, so it's impossible to say how the Palestinians will react and the intensity with which they will continue to fight Israel. You realize at the current trajectory this situation will become an even bigger clusterfuck?
What are the possibilities here?
>> Relinquish control of Gaza to Israelis and give the Palestinians complete control of the West Bank?
>> Palestinians retain control of Gaza and get all of the WB?
>> Palestinians retain control of Gaza and get a portion of the WB?
>> Palestinians only retain control of Gaza?
Israel will never relinquish control/territory if they don't feel safe doing so, and Hamas in Gaza has never given them any reason to feel safe doing so. Rockets have been raining on Israel since pretty much the day Israel evacuated.
Sharon's Gaza withdrawal was originally envisioned as the first stage of a series of further withdrawals from the W Bank. The rocket fire, cross-border incursions and the rise of Hamas in Gaza pretty much deaded that.
It's easy to say that a full withdrawal would lead to a more peaceful situation, but for most Israelis the Gaza test case has proven the opposite. The fear with a W Bank withdrawal is of a Gaza-style situation 20X the size and immediately adjacent to Israel's capitol and only international airport. That's a tough sell.
My point is: Israel is a pluralistic society. There's idiots like Shaked, and there's idiots like Zoabi. Both are extreme; neither is really representative.
Right, something I agree with, but the wider point is that you have an elected politician in a country with pretensions of civility who is basically just as bad as a bunch of fundamentalist suicidal terrorists - are you not seeing a very big problem with this? Ahh, I hear you say, but Hamas have been elected. To oustiders, Israel's actions have made Hamas a viable option. All this stuff below, more numbers, is very hard to argue against:
Comments
No, it's the people who quote them who do that.
I'm sorry, but your assertion that numbers are unassailibly pure is completely delusional. Real numbers can be cobbled together and recontextualized to the extent where they can support any and all bullshit lines of thinking. They are only as valid as the people who wield them.
i'm truly gobsmacked
Which in of itself is totally taoist-that the entire world is a shade of grey ,there is no absolute evil ,nor absolute good
which in of itself is a nietzsche-ian concept,whom the nazi's pilfered convenient tidbits from from at will into their dogma.
so here it is..........
satmar hasidc's from billyberg [about 119,000 of them]
that hate zionism and vehemently hate the failed state of israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar
does it get any more twisted or confusing?
furthermore:
I believe there is a deep long standing cabal between the [super ultra wealthy] zionists and the 00000.1% illuminati [cia/pentagon/defense contractors,big oil,aerospace,big pharma,the illicit drug trade etc] and THEY WANT a NUCLEAR ARMED POWER/ outpost/police station in the middle east to keep things in check and could give a fuck about religion/jewish tradition at all.
The israeli army is an extension of the American defense cabal and is a perfect endless live test market for NEW advanced weaponry,surveillance,missile defense,assassination techniques etc.What better than an ongoing 67 year war to play with new death toys?
Think I am crazy?
well peep this:
"One such munition may be DIME, or dense inert metal explosive, a weapon recently developed by the United States army to create a powerful and lethal blast over a small area.
The munition is supposed to still be in the development stage and is not yet regulated. There are fears, however, that Israel may have received a green light from the US military to treat Gaza as a testing ground."
in the last big war they used white phosphorus and it is being used again:
"The most prominent controversy is over the use of shells containing white phosphorus, which causes horrific burns when it comes into contact with skin. Under international law, phosphorus is allowed as a smokescreen to protect soldiers but treated as a chemical weapon when used against civilians."
They use religion and the holocaust as a facade to continue this ongoing sad ritual which as dizzy points out encapsulates the stupidity of the human race.
Just a theory but there is a deeper design that what we are seeing on the surface.
Also I believe that the failed current state of Israel was founded in oppression and violence and will never be "right" or at peace because of this ill evil foul foundation.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/op-ed-israel-may-be-testing-weapons-in-gaza/article/391073
There are not that many reporters in Gaza and they may not have access to check up on these reports. Apparently, foreign reporters must sign a form that absolves the Israeli forces of any responsibility for injuries or deaths to them. Amnesty International condemns the practice although it is also used by other armed forces. A Gazan journalist whose car was clearly marked on the hood TV was killed by an Israeli missile when it struck his vehicle.
There are also reports that Israel is using what are called DIME weapons in the conflict. These weapons are described as follows in Wikipedia:
Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME) is an experimental type of explosive that has a relatively small but effective blast radius. It is manufactured by producing a homogeneous mixture of an explosive material (such as phlegmatized HMX or RDX) and small particles of a chemically inert material such as tungsten. It is intended to limit the distance at which the explosion causes damage, to avoid collateral damage in warfare.
These weapons have been around for some time. Doctors working in Gaza reported that these weapons were probably used in past battles:
In July/August 2006, doctors in the Gaza Strip reported unusual wounds caused by Israel Defense Forces attacks against Palestinian targets, claiming that they were from a previously unknown weapons. A lab analysis of the metals found in the victims' bodies was reportedly "compatible with the hypothesis" that DIME weapons were involved. Israel denied possessing or using such weapons, and an Israeli military expert said that the wounds were consistent with ordinary explosives.[8] Dr. Mads Gilbert and Dr. Erik Fosse, working on wounded from the 2008ÔÇô2009 IsraelÔÇôGaza conflict, reported injuries that they believed were caused by some new type of weapon used by Israel, which they suspected were DIME bombs.
Gilbert and Fosse report similar cases in the present incursion by Israel.
Several sources describe these weapons as banned for example here and here.. There are no references by which this claim can be verified. The Wikipedia article on DIME does not mention the weapons are banned. Many other articles speak of the weapons as experimental which is certainly true. One source says they are not legally banned. The weapons cause horrible wounds in many cases but the ingredients used are also known to cause cancer in lab animals at least.
The reports of the weapons being banned may have their source in a statement by Palestinian Health undersecretary Youssef Resh who said at a press conference;
ÔÇ£Medical teams have found wounds on the bodies of those killed and injured that are caused by the banned DIME weapons. Gaza hospitals are bursting at the seams with dead and wounded. Children and women make up around 62 percent of those injured in the attacks.ÔÇØ
Even though the weapons may not be banned, if Israel is testing these weapons using Gazans as subjects this in itself is ethically and perhaps even legally questionable. Dr. Fosse is interviewed by Press TV on the appended You Tube video.
Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/op-ed-israel-may-be-testing-weapons-in-gaza/article/391073#ixzz38SDfBNn1
thanks for this, sincerely.
I didn't really have the time/energy to respond to your hateful gibberish.
and now I don't have to.
(sigh of relief).
night folks!
dj it's obvious that you are way out of your element here.
this is the grown up table,if you want to perpetrate and regurgitate what was spoon fed to you 30 years ago by an institution : religious,mass media or educational then be my guest.
but i suggest you do some deep research before playing yourself as a knee jerk reactive moron or calling me "hateful" for pointing out nasty inconvenient realities.
"To both Jews and non-Jews the idea of an anti-Zionist Jew can sound like a contradiction in termsÔÇöan abuse of Rabbi HillelÔÇÖs most famous ethical aphorism, ÔÇ£If I am not for myself, who will be for me." But for Sam Weinstein, and for around 30 others, me included, tucked together in a small Jewish bloc at SaturdayÔÇÖs Gaza demo in London, standing against Israel is precisely what our background demands.
ÔÇ£I come from a Jewish tradition that has always fought for the underdog,ÔÇØ Sam told me as he unfurled a banner of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network in the sticky heat. ÔÇ£One that has fought for social justice because historically we were the ones getting killed by the state.ÔÇØ
On the 8th of July, Israel began Operation Protective Edge, a military offensive which used the kidnapping and murder of three boys in Kfar Etzion, a settlement in the occupied West Bank, as a pretext for the bombardment and invasion of the Gaza strip. Since then, over 80,000 Gazans have fled their homes and more than 500 have died, the majority of them civilians.
For British Jews and other diaspora communities that oppose this, the added tragedy is that it is done in our name, in the expectation of our full, unflinching support. Before the Second World War, there were many Jews that refused to accept political Zionism as an ideology. But since 1948, when the State of Israel was established, support for it has slowly become almost unanimous."
ÔÇ£The Israeli state identifies Israel with all Jews,ÔÇØ Naomi Winborne Idrissi, a co-founder of Jews for Boycotting Israel Goods said to me as we passed Downing Street. ÔÇ£It aims to speak for all of us. But we say Israel and Zionism does not represent us.ÔÇØ Refusing to be wrapped up in a cause that is blindly and destructively nationalistic is why we were demonstrating in our capacity as JewsÔÇöboth expressing our solidarity with Palestine and reclaiming ownership of our Jewish identity.
ThatÔÇÖs not an easy thing to do. For a long time when I was growing up I felt that Israel did represent me. In 2002, during the Second Intifada, I remember standing with 40,000 people in Trafalgar Square, swept up in a haze of blue and white flags, proud parents and slogans I only half understood. 2002 was also the year I was bar mitzvahed. Every Saturday morning for nearly 12 months I sat in my local synagogue in Essex to hear stale one-sided sermons from the man supposed to be teaching me about Jewish values, ethics and intellectual life. In my early teens I was a member of the Federation of Zionist Youth, one of thousands of emotionally charged and politically naive kids, sent on summer camps and tours across Israel to sample Israeli culture in the most santitised, ideologically curated way.
In Britain, the United Synagogue, the largest Jewish denomination, puts ÔÇ£the centrality of Israel in Jewish lifeÔÇØ as one of its defining values. The British Board of Deputies, the primary representative body of British Jews, claims in its constitution that it seeks to advance ÔÇ£IsraelÔÇÖs security, welfare and standingÔÇØ. Dwelling on these facts is the only way I can make sense of why otherwise decent people, family and friends, show their support for what seems so obviously and monumentally wrong.
ÔÇ£The direction in which Jewish and Israeli people are going in is terrifying,ÔÇØ said Dan Nemenyi, one of the younger demonstrators in the bloc. ÔÇ£The Jewish establishment in Britain remains as right wing as ever, and still holds power over schools, synagogues and the representation of the community. In Israel a solution needs to be found for the situation of the Palestinians. But the response is full military occupation and war whenever itÔÇÖs needed.ÔÇØ
more
http://www.vice.com/read/kleinfeld-israel-demos-zionism-london-2014-138
I'm not sure how hundreds of dead people is a lie. It seems that the issues of fault and blame are more important to you. 700+ dead, thousands injured. Or are they just pretending?
Miiiiistake...
again, I ask you: do you want to go link-for-link on the utterances of Israeli and Arab leaders?
I mean, two can obviously play at that game. I could just start flooding this thread with quotes from the ruling Hamas party's charter (viciously anti-Semitic), the recent Berlin imam's sermon (calling for the killing of Jews), or any number of videos of the Palestinians singing in the streets after a suicide bombing.
Shall I?
http://forward.com/articles/200233/arab-knesset-member-hanin-zoabi-says-kidnappers-no/
This is an Arab member of Israel's parliament who openly sides with terrorists. She's actually only the last in a line of Arab MKs who have called for Israel's dismantlement, have traveled to meet with Hezbollah, etc. (They serve in Israel's Parliament -- rather than, say, languish in a dungeon -- because Israel is a democracy.)
[Of course, there are many more non-Jewish members of Israel's Parliament who don't reject the national consensus, but are instead a part of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamad_Amar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issawi_Frej
Then there's perhaps the most visible hero of the current Gaza invasion, also non-Jewish:
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180169/hero-idf-commander-in-gaza-isnt-jewish
but i digress....]
My point is: Israel is a pluralistic society. There's idiots like Shaked, and there's idiots like Zoabi. Both are extreme; neither is really representative.
Peace is the only way forward.
C'mon, it's not that bad.........yet.
rape_donkeys,
Your suggestion that Israel considers its lives more important is suspect. What army (Hamas, the IDF, the Marines) does not place the lives of its members above those of the enemy?
But I'll engage you on your peace settlement proposal: you suggest removing blockades as a solution. All I can say is that this is asking a tremendous amount of the Israeli leadership given the Gaza precedent since 2005. Israel evacuated Gaza in 2005, but maintains control over airspace and the coast. You'll hear that Gaza has been totally sealed, but the reality is more complicated: they have a border with Egypt that opens or closes at Egypt's whim (it was open under the Muslim Brothers, closed under Sisi) and Israel also allows humanitarian aid through a border crossing in northern Gaza. There's also a huge network of tunnels from Egypt through which things are smuggled.
But obviously the Gazans do not have full control of its borders which a sovereign state should have. That said, what limited shipments *have* gone through since 2005 have been devoted in large part to weapons smuggling and to building tunnels under Israeli civilian settlements for the purposes of attacking them. (The tunnels are a massive feat of engineering and have required tons and tons of building materiel; hardly any other infrastructure has been built by the Gazans.)
So limited border openings have led almost entirely to the construction of an infrastructure to attack Israel, and you would now ask Israel (or ask Israel's leaders to ask Israel's public), to *decrease* their control over Gaza's borders?
What the fuck kind of government would do that? Seriously, how do you sell that to your voters? "Sure, Gaza is run by a group that wants to actually replace our country with a Muslim state, and sure they've used what limited border control they had almost entirely to build a means to carry out this very wish....but let's just open up the borders a little more and see what happens. Maybe it'll turn out different this time?"
Let's keep those borders closed, keep bombing and keep building and see how that turns out.
This guy sorta agrees.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/michael-oren-israel-must-be-permitted-to-crush-hamas/2014/07/24/bd9967fc-1350-11e4-9285-4243a40ddc97_story.html
much of the Arab world also wants to see Hamas destroyed. what's your point?
Just posting an op-ed, man.
I have no desire to wade into this.
Carry on.
I see the salient points you raise. But let's not forget about the Palestinians' rights as human beings and to self govern themselves in exclusive control of their own territory. Israel will, at some point need to concede nationhood for Palestine, so why not do that sooner than later? The whole political climate would then change, so it's impossible to say how the Palestinians will react and the intensity with which they will continue to fight Israel. You realize at the current trajectory this situation will become an even bigger clusterfuck?
What are the possibilities here?
>> Relinquish control of Gaza to Israelis and give the Palestinians complete control of the West Bank?
>> Palestinians retain control of Gaza and get all of the WB?
>> Palestinians retain control of Gaza and get a portion of the WB?
>> Palestinians only retain control of Gaza?
Israel will never relinquish control/territory if they don't feel safe doing so, and Hamas in Gaza has never given them any reason to feel safe doing so. Rockets have been raining on Israel since pretty much the day Israel evacuated.
Sharon's Gaza withdrawal was originally envisioned as the first stage of a series of further withdrawals from the W Bank. The rocket fire, cross-border incursions and the rise of Hamas in Gaza pretty much deaded that.
It's easy to say that a full withdrawal would lead to a more peaceful situation, but for most Israelis the Gaza test case has proven the opposite. The fear with a W Bank withdrawal is of a Gaza-style situation 20X the size and immediately adjacent to Israel's capitol and only international airport. That's a tough sell.
Hamas Spokesman: A Truce Means Preparing for the Next Battle
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/24/hamas-spokesman-a-truce-means-preparing-for-the-next-battle-video/
Right, something I agree with, but the wider point is that you have an elected politician in a country with pretensions of civility who is basically just as bad as a bunch of fundamentalist suicidal terrorists - are you not seeing a very big problem with this? Ahh, I hear you say, but Hamas have been elected. To oustiders, Israel's actions have made Hamas a viable option. All this stuff below, more numbers, is very hard to argue against:
Sorry, screen-friendly sized images here http://www.trueactivist.com/11-images-showing-the-extent-of-israels-palestinian-apartheid/
Another thought; Mandela advocated violent protest. If he had rockets, chances are he would've used them, and this is why he was imprisoned.