Why does everybody hate on fusion jazz so much?

MorseCodeMorseCode 1,516 Posts
edited August 2005 in Music Talk
I mean I'm sitting hear bumpin Shunzo Ohno - Quarter Moon, and its mad decent. I've always dug this sound, of course alongside classic funk shit and sweet soul and all that, but anytime I hear that mellow rhodes shit it hits the spot.I'm talking like Stone Alliance, Hysear Don Walker, Mizell Bros. producto, George Duke, John Payne, Azymuth, Solar Plexus or a little bit rawer but still fusion like Norman Williams, Stanley Cowell or Doug Lucas, Or soul shit that's got that fusion feel to it, like James Mason. That's the shit that always gets me.DISCUSS
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  • FlomotionFlomotion 2,391 Posts
    Weather Report.

  • I never heard anyone hatting on some Mizells or Stanley Cowell...

    Now Spyra Gyra is

  • Word...

    I love fusion.

    Been feeling Japanese fusion lately... I even like the cheesey shit.



    Peace...
    FNM


  • BaptBapt 2,503 Posts
    Harvey Mason

  • GNZGNZ 68 Posts
    I think people hate on it so much because of what it became, not what it started out as.

    At the beggining you had the whole "sons of miles" thing, w/john mclaughlin, herbie, joe zawinul, chick corea and others doing the main groundwork, but lots of little guys had dopeness that slipped past like joe farrell, julian priester, david liebman, eddie henderson, joe henderson, freddie hubbard, etc.

    Fusion started out with a shitload of possibilities, but I think the problem was that the so called "next generation" of jazz musicians DIDN'T go into jazz, but into fusion/r&b/rock what have you instead...so you get technical greatness with no sensitivity that come from playing jazz and thus you have the overblown ridiuclousness of fuzak and such....which I still like (the best momemnts of it anyway) but i can understand if people hate on it and shit. spyro gyro, shadowfax and bad ECM and shit. fuck that shit.

    WEATHER REPORT.

  • ElectrodeElectrode Los Angeles 2,899 Posts
    Clavinet or die

  • GNZGNZ 68 Posts



  • GNZGNZ 68 Posts
    Clavinet or die

    It's all about the classic fusion keyboard setup.
    Rhodes on right side. (w/optional wah-wah, ring modulator, phase shifter, etc.)
    Clavinet on left side. (even better with wah wah and ring modulator)
    Arp 2600 on top of clav.
    (Possible) mini-moog on top of rhodes.
    Wurlitzer behind for extra soulful getting down.
    Hell maybe even an acoustic piano to sweeten the deal.


    STONE ALLIANCE
    (posted these in another thread, but figured it warrents another shout)
    http://www.pmrecords.org/StoneAlliance.shtml
    STONE ALLIANCE LIVE 1976+ VIDEOS

  • TheMackTheMack 3,414 Posts
    weather report are the truth

  • GambleGamble 844 Posts
    Return to Forever are the shit.

    Where Hace I Known You Before
    Light As a Feather
    Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy

    These are ESSENTIAL.

  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    I'm a big fan of records like these:







    Not even trying to be a wiseass, I honestly don't know if these are true "fusion" records or not, I just dig them and if someone asked me what kind of music they were, I would say, "uhhh...fusion?"

    I'd be down to get a recommendation of the best Weather Report records to check out, since I have never picked up anything by them.


  • MorseCodeMorseCode 1,516 Posts



    What's this one right here?

  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    The LP is titled "Voyage to Uranus", the act is Atmospheres, and is led by sax & flute man Clive Stevens, who wrote and arranged the entire album. The highlight is in the rhythm section, particularly Stu Woods on bass - John Abercrombie on guitar and Ralph Towner on clavinet & electric piano round things out. Really funky, intense, driving tunes, with long soloing saved from pointless noodling by the relentless rhythm. Slept on. Buy it for $2.99 - whenever I see it, it's cheap as dirt.

  • parsecparsec 5,087 Posts


    soul on ice- next time you see sweetnighter in a dollar bin pick it up. dope ass common lp.

  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    Nice, thanks. I'm surprised I haven't picked it up yet - I usually buy anything that features a rendering of the artists' faces superimposed inside of clouds...we could do a whole thread on albums that feature that cover art!

  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    In fact, I just bought this one on eBay last night:



  • m_dejeanm_dejean Quadratisch. Praktisch. Gut. 2,946 Posts
    thus you have the overblown ridiuclousness of fuzak and such. spyro gyro, shadowfax and bad ECM and shit. fuck that shit.

    HAHA "fuzak". Love that expression. Instantly added to my vocabulary.

    Agreed on the cheesefactor of Spyro Gyra, Yellowjackets and soforth, but don't hat on early ECM (even some later). Many people don't like that "cold" Manfred Eicher sound, but there are plenty of gems from Wolfgang Dauner, Julian Priester, Terje Rypdal, Robin Kenyatta, Eberhard Weber and others that are IMO.

    Now this is some serious soulful fusion illness right here:





    His use of a clavinet was truly .

  • m_dejeanm_dejean Quadratisch. Praktisch. Gut. 2,946 Posts
    Word...

    I love fusion.

    Been feeling Japanese fusion lately... I even like the cheesey shit.



    Peace...
    FNM


    Mint Jams???

  • dayday 9,612 Posts






    Rhodes on right side. (w/optional wah-wah, ring modulator, phase shifter, etc.)

    Clavinet on left side. (even better with wah wah and ring modulator)

    Arp 2600 on top of clav.

    (Possible) mini-moog on top of rhodes.

    Wurlitzer behind for extra soulful getting down.

    Hell maybe even an acoustic piano to sweeten the deal.




    *que nocturnal emissions





    I'm gonna pull this out and get my Journey to Uranus on








  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    In fact, I just bought this one on eBay last night:


    Classic artist, but not one of his best elpees IMO. Maybe you might feel different...

    (And for the rest of you: this is NOT fusion.)

  • upskibooupskiboo 2,396 Posts


    soul on ice- next time you see sweetnighter in a dollar bin pick it up. dope ass common lp.

    real awesome real dirty, sounds like the oldest fusion record ever, 125th Street Congress sounds like theyre drumming on garbage cans, Non-Stop Home starts out with the illest drum keyboard wahwah madness, then changes into James Brown style bassline...

  • upskibooupskiboo 2,396 Posts
    recommended fusion:

    catalyst- s/t- cobblestone- 72
    catalyst- perception- muse- 73
    catalyst- unity- muse- 74
    catalyst- a tear and a smile- muse- 75





  • upskibooupskiboo 2,396 Posts
    Fusion started out with Miles Davis, start 70??s raw as fuck, but the reason peeps hate on it is because it ended up (late 70's early 80's) sounding crazy cheese waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!

  • kennykenny 1,024 Posts


    soul on ice- next time you see sweetnighter in a dollar bin pick it up. dope ass common lp.

    real awesome real dirty, sounds like the oldest fusion record ever, 125th Street Congress sounds like theyre drumming on garbage cans, Non-Stop Home starts out with the illest drum keyboard wahwah madness, then changes into James Brown style bassline...

    and thats it. I don't think their later ones were that good...

  • GNZGNZ 68 Posts
    thus you have the overblown ridiuclousness of fuzak and such. spyro gyro, shadowfax and bad ECM and shit. fuck that shit.

    HAHA "fuzak". Love that expression. Instantly added to my vocabulary.

    Agreed on the cheesefactor of Spyro Gyra, Yellowjackets and soforth, but don't hat on early ECM (even some later). Many people don't like that "cold" Manfred Eicher sound, but there are plenty of gems from Wolfgang Dauner, Julian Priester, Terje Rypdal, Robin Kenyatta, Eberhard Weber and others that are IMO.


    Don't get me wrong, I love me some early ECM shit. MArion Brown-Afternoon of a Georgia Faun, DAvid liebman-drum ode Jan garbarak-Afric Pepperbird and even miroslav vitous-universal syncopations for some more recent shit, BUT.......I think the label has released some unbearably cheesy, pretentious crap. And thus will ever be tainted in my mind.

    Early ECM=

  • GNZGNZ 68 Posts
    Now check this weather reportts album "MYSTERIOUS TRAVELAR" and wish it was a $500 private press raer so you could cream in yr. pants.

    AND DON'T SAY UNCLE GNZ NEVER GAVE YA NOTHIN.

  • FatbackFatback 6,746 Posts
    I think people hate on it so much because of what it became, not what it started out as.



    At the beggining you had the whole "sons of miles" thing, w/john mclaughlin, herbie, joe zawinul, chick corea and others doing the main groundwork, but lots of little guys had dopeness that slipped past like joe farrell, julian priester, david liebman, eddie henderson, joe henderson, freddie hubbard, etc.



    Fusion started out with a shitload of possibilities, but I think the problem was that the so called "next generation" of jazz musicians DIDN'T go into jazz, but into fusion/r&b/rock what have you instead...so you get technical greatness with no sensitivity that come from playing jazz and thus you have the overblown ridiuclousness of fuzak and such....which I still like (the best momemnts of it anyway) but i can understand if people hate on it and shit. spyro gyro, shadowfax and bad ECM and shit. fuck that shit.




    agreed. i stay away from shit that is either too prog or too smooth.

  • FatbackFatback 6,746 Posts
    pretty much sums it up right here...




  • m_dejeanm_dejean Quadratisch. Praktisch. Gut. 2,946 Posts
    pretty much sums it up right here...




    OK, you had to bring in Chick Corea Electric Band. This is indeed an example of what gives the word "fusion" a bad name. I remember a friend of mine who was a drummer, had a Dave Weckl (drummer with CCEB and others) instruction video. He was always praising Weckl as the worlds greatest, and he tried to persuade me by showing the video. Didn't work. I mean, just look at the guy:



    Feldman
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