ethnic [eth-nik] ???
???adjective
1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.
3. being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.
I can understand the irritation, but I think it's an acceptable term when used correctly.
If you're talking about something specific like "Songs of the Baddi Community of Garhwal" then surely that's the very definition of Ethnic Music.
But if you're using it as a label for anything that is Indian music, you're on shaky ground.
^^^^^ this. for sure. Shaky ground also includes what American record stores often refer to as "World Music" or "International".
so its acceptable to hatt on some genreralized term as World but Ethnic is cool?
ethnic [eth-nik] ???
???adjective
1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.
3. being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.
I can understand the irritation, but I think it's an acceptable term when used correctly.
If you're talking about something specific like "Songs of the Baddi Community of Garhwal" then surely that's the very definition of Ethnic Music.
But if you're using it as a label for anything that is Indian music, you're on shaky ground.
^^^^^ this. for sure. Shaky ground also includes what American record stores often refer to as "World Music" or "International".
so its acceptable to hatt on some genreralized term as World but Ethnic is cool?
i dont get it
I think what Okem is saying is that, when used properly, "Ethnic" is cool because it has a specific meaning that refers to a specific thing. What I'm saying is that "World" is not cool because it is general and dumb. American music is world music because America is part of the world.
No, I think thats the kind of thing people like Batmon chaff over. And to me that would just be International music, informed by its ethnic heritage no doubt, but becoming something different upon entering the commercial sphere.
I think what Okem is saying is that, when used properly, "Ethnic" is cool because it has a specific meaning that refers to a specific thing. What I'm saying is that "World" is not cool because it is general and dumb. American music is world music because America is part of the world.
isnt this the same shit?
An Amercian can choose to label shit outside themselves to make it a 'specific' catagory yet "Ethnic" is outside of the same critique?
It's not an easy discretion to make, for sure. Which is why I'd personally avoid using 'ethnic' outside of traditional forms of archaic folk music.
Thing is, people love to categorised music, and if you're selling something like the Rough Guide CDs to joe public, I really don't know what else you could label that section as, apart from "World Music". And I don't really have a problem with that.
I think what Okem is saying is that, when used properly, "Ethnic" is cool because it has a specific meaning that refers to a specific thing. What I'm saying is that "World" is not cool because it is general and dumb. American music is world music because America is part of the world.
isnt this the same shit?
An Amercian can choose to label shit outside themselves to make it a 'specific' catagory yet "Ethnic" is outside of the same critique?
There is such a thing as American "Ethnic" music. It doesn't solely mean "outside". I think the term has just been tarnished because it is so often used to imply some sort of cultural superiority. I agree that people have less beef with the term "Folk" than "Ethnic"
Some of them might even be insulting or imperialistic.
Any time you try to create a category, say FunkBandsthatplayNewWave, people are going to argue about what is funk, what is soul, what is rock, what is punk, what is new wave. And does race matter?
Batmon, if World Music is stupid (as most agree) and Ethnic (imperialistic) what should we call non-mainstream music that is easily identified as from a specific culture?
me, too. work is nuts, haven't even taken lunch yet.
I would jostle - OK almost trample - a small annoying child to get a rasam soup and dosa at Udupi Palace about now.
I understand the concern everyone has for the possible insulting/imperialistic uses of the term 'ethnic.' But I think some folks are overreacting.
Labels are part of how we deal with the complexity of life. The "World Music" section is usually not implying some sort of superiority of North American popular/commercial music, but addressing the fact that the store predominantly sells commercial pop. To micro-organize the small amount of music that comes from "the rest of the world," would most likely mean it was less accessible/functional for their customers. Larger retailers or specialty stores can afford to stock and organize in a much more specific and culturally-sensitive way. I do not believe there is explicit malice in the "World Music" section. It is organizational/functional.
Using the term Ethnic to describe modern music from countries outside North America, to me, seems to move from an organizational/functional label into the grey area of labels born from or implying ignorance towards the music being discussed. But even then... that's a judgement that needs to come on a case-by-case basis. To someone who's never heard any music with sitars, tablas, and eastern scales before, pop and folk music may sound very similar. Do we need to shout them down because they aren't knowledgeable, but interested? I think it's very situational.
I initially understood the OP's use of the term Ethnic Bangers as a tongue in cheek type of term you would expect to show up on the strut. Maybe we should be discussing the use of Banger rather than Ethnic. Cuz then we'd be talking about music rather than arguing about bullshit.
I'm not mad at the term "World Music". I just think it's redundant and implies a separation between music made in America vs. the rest of the world. Record stores in Japan don't file American music under the title "World Music". Then again, they do file some American bands under the title "Black Music" so, whatever
i guess i just thought that the term ethnic meant just one thing across the digging community - shit that sounds like it came out on Folkways. I never really use it to describe international pop music and stuff with the industry behind it. if thats somebodys definition than Bob Marley is ethnic as are the Fania all-stars and i can see how some people might be annoyed by that sort of usage
I only first heard music described as ethnic by another record collector a year ago.
I asked what he meant by ethnic and he said Folkways type stuff.
He used ethnic instead of international to make clear that he didn't mean tepid Bavarian drinking songs.
Yeah, Ethnic Folkways is a whole big series. What serious record collector doesn't have a general idea of what is meant by 'ethnic'? I don't have a problem with potentially problematic labels if they are more useful than offensive.
Yeah, Ethnic Folkways is a whole big series. What serious record collector doesn't have a general idea of what is meant by 'ethnic'? I don't have a problem with potentially problematic labels if they are more useful than offensive.
Comments
so its acceptable to hatt on some genreralized term as World but Ethnic is cool?
i dont get it
I think what Okem is saying is that, when used properly, "Ethnic" is cool because it has a specific meaning that refers to a specific thing. What I'm saying is that "World" is not cool because it is general and dumb. American music is world music because America is part of the world.
(which they both would be)
(I'm not trying to be difficult)
isnt this the same shit?
An Amercian can choose to label shit outside themselves to make it a 'specific' catagory yet "Ethnic" is outside of the same critique?
LOL - Yea, maybe...predating commercial...and all that.
Thing is, people love to categorised music, and if you're selling something like the Rough Guide CDs to joe public, I really don't know what else you could label that section as, apart from "World Music". And I don't really have a problem with that.
There is such a thing as American "Ethnic" music. It doesn't solely mean "outside". I think the term has just been tarnished because it is so often used to imply some sort of cultural superiority. I agree that people have less beef with the term "Folk" than "Ethnic"
All of them.
Some of them might even be insulting or imperialistic.
Any time you try to create a category, say FunkBandsthatplayNewWave, people are going to argue about what is funk, what is soul, what is rock, what is punk, what is new wave. And does race matter?
Batmon, if World Music is stupid (as most agree) and Ethnic (imperialistic) what should we call non-mainstream music that is easily identified as from a specific culture?
i am so f'n hungry right now.
I would jostle - OK almost trample - a small annoying child to get a rasam soup and dosa at Udupi Palace about now.
i thought it was going to be a video of DL hughley talking about the different between white and black gangs.
Labels are part of how we deal with the complexity of life. The "World Music" section is usually not implying some sort of superiority of North American popular/commercial music, but addressing the fact that the store predominantly sells commercial pop. To micro-organize the small amount of music that comes from "the rest of the world," would most likely mean it was less accessible/functional for their customers. Larger retailers or specialty stores can afford to stock and organize in a much more specific and culturally-sensitive way. I do not believe there is explicit malice in the "World Music" section. It is organizational/functional.
Using the term Ethnic to describe modern music from countries outside North America, to me, seems to move from an organizational/functional label into the grey area of labels born from or implying ignorance towards the music being discussed. But even then... that's a judgement that needs to come on a case-by-case basis. To someone who's never heard any music with sitars, tablas, and eastern scales before, pop and folk music may sound very similar. Do we need to shout them down because they aren't knowledgeable, but interested? I think it's very situational.
I initially understood the OP's use of the term Ethnic Bangers as a tongue in cheek type of term you would expect to show up on the strut. Maybe we should be discussing the use of Banger rather than Ethnic. Cuz then we'd be talking about music rather than arguing about bullshit.
"pop" and "ethnic" are mutually exclusive, imo.
you sound normal.
Holy shit.
I asked what he meant by ethnic and he said Folkways type stuff.
He used ethnic instead of international to make clear that he didn't mean tepid Bavarian drinking songs.
I'm having trouble thinking of ethnic music that also has banguer qualities without any Western influence.
This thread hasn't helped much.