My biggest prob with Sheehan is why should she get anymore coverage or have any more importance put on her opinion of the war than any other mother who has had their son die in Iraq
cause she made the effort to be heard
Which, by the way, for voices protesting this administration, ain't so easy these days...
My biggest prob with Sheehan is why should she get anymore coverage or have any more importance put on her opinion of the war than any other mother who has had their son die in Iraq, should a mother that believes the cause in Iraq is just get put on television everyday, you dudes would shitting your pants with anger if that was the case. The stuff she is saying is no diffenrent than what has been said a million times before, and the anti war groups have finally found thier poster child for thier cause, this makes me sick, just as sick as when I see wounded soldiers with "patriotic" country music playing in the background
white women get play, in absence of celebrity scandal, missing, runaway, protesting white women must get ratings, why else would the press give them so much attention at the cost of real or raer important newz
i bet there are plenty of moms in iraq that would like some face time with the prez
My biggest prob with Sheehan is why should she get anymore coverage or have any more importance put on her opinion of the war than any other mother who has had their son die in Iraq, should a mother that believes the cause in Iraq is just get put on television everyday, you dudes would shitting your pants with anger if that was the case. The stuff she is saying is no diffenrent than what has been said a million times before, and the anti war groups have finally found thier poster child for thier cause, this makes me sick, just as sick as when I see wounded soldiers with "patriotic" country music playing in the background
I gotta agree with the general gist of the above statement. The discussion needs to move from making Bush apologize(NEVER going to happen) to 'how do we get this thing moving to completion?'. The discourse surrounding Sheehan (pro and con) has become so shrill and histrionic as to yeild a neutral situation at best, and frankly, demeaning the anti-war stance at worst.
Suppose what Mrs. Sheehan wants is impossible. That, in and of itself, and the reasons why it is so, is the big problem. How many more people will die because Bush can't admit he made a mistake? How pathological is that???[/b]
Say what you want about Michael Moore (and this isn't really about him), but keep in mind that his public image is as much the product of his demonization by the right wing in this country as it is of his own words and actions.
I agree that this discussion has had it's ugly moments, but I think that's because there's so much at stake here. I simply cannot understand why anyone with access to information would step up to defend the status quo in this situation. It boggles the mind, and the degree to which the President and his proxys will resort to character assassination to muddy the waters of discourse ought to disgust everyone, not just those on the left.
Larry
Bush will never admit he made a mistake in this matter, and just to play devils advocate, I'd say it might be a good thing. As a (cough cough) leader he doesn't want to seem weak. Ego and attitude guides certain people more than the reality of any situation will sometimes.
And yes Moore is demonized in many media sources, but he does sort of bring it on himself. I mean he does know who is going to be covering him and it should be rather predictable what they are going to say about whatever cause he is on board with. Don't get me wrong, for the most part I love what he does, and most of that is cause he never tries to play the victim and whine about Fox News is going to portray him. Just knowing what image he has he sould of supported this cause from afar.
My biggest prob with Sheehan is why should she get anymore coverage or have any more importance put on her opinion of the war than any other mother who has had their son die in Iraq, should a mother that believes the cause in Iraq is just get put on television everyday, you dudes would shitting your pants with anger if that was the case. The stuff she is saying is no diffenrent than what has been said a million times before, and the anti war groups have finally found thier poster child for thier cause, this makes me sick, just as sick as when I see wounded soldiers with "patriotic" country music playing in the background
I gotta agree with the general gist of the above statement. The discussion needs to move from making Bush apologize(NEVER going to happen) to 'how do we get this thing moving to completion?'. The discourse surrounding Sheehan (pro and con) has become so shrill and histrionic as to yeild a neutral situation at best, and frankly, demeaning the anti-war stance at worst.
Just my 2 cents.
I don't get it...I'm going to lunch. I'm going to listen to some Booker Ervin on the iRiver and try to forget how fucked up things are... Back in an hour....
one fo the reasons I keep coming back to soulstrut is cause the political discussions are always so well articulated on both sides, and although this board is leans extremely to the left even the right wingers seem to be able to express themselves well. Those that want to participate in a political argument ehre should give the same respect that they want to recieve.
Now for my two cents:
Cindy Sheehan is asking for something that is impossible, she wants a face-to-face meeting so that Bush will essentially apologize for sending her son off to be killed.
What she wants is to end the war. Yes, it is impossible. It is as impossible as driving the British out of India with out an army. It as impossible as ending aparthid in South Africa through public opinion and sanctions. It is as impossible as ending the war in Vietnam by marching in the streets.
My biggest prob with Sheehan is why should she get anymore coverage or have any more importance put on her opinion of the war than any other mother who has had their son die in Iraq, should a mother that believes the cause in Iraq is just get put on television everyday, you dudes would shitting your pants with anger if that was the case. The stuff she is saying is no diffenrent than what has been said a million times before, and the anti war groups have finally found thier poster child for thier cause, this makes me sick, just as sick as when I see wounded soldiers with "patriotic" country music playing in the background
I gotta agree with the general gist of the above statement. The discussion needs to move from making Bush apologize(NEVER going to happen) to 'how do we get this thing moving to completion?'. The discourse surrounding Sheehan (pro and con) has become so shrill and histrionic as to yeild a neutral situation at best, and frankly, demeaning the anti-war stance at worst.
Just my 2 cents.
I don't get it...I'm going to lunch. I'm going to listen to some Booker Ervin on the iRiver and try to forget how fucked up things are... Back in an hour....
Lar, you know where I stand on the war, that has not changed. I just think that there needs to be a way to advance the idea of 'getting out' that does not allow the Administration to simply turn it into a joke or otherwise discredit the idea as easily as they are this Crawford protest.
But I do ask one favor of you: please stop responding to Sabadabdoo or whatever the fuck his name is. He clearly has nothing but reactive junk to add to the discussion, but too many of you here are giving him credence by even answering his inane posts.
Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel. Am I stupid? No, I know full well that my son, my family, this nation and this world were betrayed by George Bush who was influenced by the neo-con PNAC agendas after 9/11. We were told that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hate our freedoms and democracy ??? not for the real reason, because the Arab Muslims who attacked us hate our middle-eastern foreign policy.
Hate to burst your bubble, twiddlestick, but Sheehan never said this. The quote was invented by the right-wing sleeze machine in a "letter" she sent to ABC News, which she never sent, but was "forwarded by a friend (someone she didn't know)." Hitchens was too drunk to fact check and he got punk'd. When asked about the quote by Anderson Cooper on CNN, she denies saying it: sorry foll
I challenge you to find confirmation of it anywhere outside the right wing blogosphere.
Dude, little secret... These wingnuts lie a lot and they'll smear anyone who steps in front of them. Don't believe the hype.
One thing I don't understand... I just went to her gsfp site and I keep seeing Rick Overton at events. Ummm, why is there need for a comedian there??? Does he lighten the mood?
RICK OVERTON is a comedian, actor, writer, and creative consultant. He recently guest-starred on "Joan of Arcadia," "According to Jim" and "Curb Your Enthusiasm," and is a regular contributor to E! Entertainment's "Most Sensational Crimes of Fashion." Rick won an Emmy award for his work as the head writer of Dennis Miller's HBO series.
1) J Paycheck and others are correct that this war was woefully planned from the beginning. And there is no point in blaming anyone except the president. And as much as I agree with the reasons for going to war, it's now impossible to ignore the consequences of how poorly it has been led. We are running the risk of leaving Iraq with the traits of the worst regimes in the region. It will be simultaneously an Islamic Republic with a security service culled from the former tyrant's henchmen. This says nothing of the record setting corruption of the interim regime we empowered 14 months ago, or the graft and cruelty of so many of the bandit ex-CIA security firms.
2) Cindy Sheehan's arguments, while I think are genuine, are not constructive. The most pressing question for any American now is how to win this war which we are now losing. She is not only demanding that we abandon Iraq's first elected government as they are writing a constitution, but that the president apologize for the sacrifice that her son made. She reasons the war was fought for reasons hidden from the public eye. But what of the other families that believe, as I do, that Saddam really was a threat to us and our allies, that Iraqi democracy is worth fighting for. If he appeases Cindy Sheehan he will no doubt sell out so many of the soldiers who still believe in the mission. He would also be sending a message to the Islamo-nihilists that America thinks it an error to defend their targets who are largely Iraqi civilians.
3) Cindy Sheehan's crowd, Medea Benjamin, Michael Moore etc., are among the slimiest frauds who oppose the war. There are many noble arguments for opposing the war and even for pulling out our troops. But Norm Solomon and Michael Moore are not making them. Instead they peddle conspiracy meant to create an equivalency between our country and our enemies. Whether or not Cindy Sheehan has added her voice to say Juan Cole in forwarding the lie about how this war was fought on behalf of Israel and made possible by the machinations of a cabal of Jewish intellectuals is besides the point. She has certainly alligned herself with this hateful fringe of the anti-war movement. Anyway, it's nonsense. It starts by asking who benefits? and ends with Israel. But if we were to draw this out to its conclusions, then why don't these bigots say Bush fought the war on behalf of Iran? As it looks now, they are benefiting the most from the intervention.
4) Big Spliff, come on. When you wrote that people who disagree with you are no better than pro-Kremlin Soviets, you are yourself betraying a certain Leninism. You are essentially accusing your opponents of false consciousness. It is this logic, I might add, that led to the jailing of so many dissidents in the Soviet bloc. As best I can tell, 3rd stream, and Sabadaba are not making broad statements about your psychological motivations. So why must you offer such flimsy counterfactuals about theirs? It's no better than right wing cranks who declare all war opponents to be traitors. There are many reasoned supporters of the war who also respect not only the right of their opponents to make their case, but like myself see such dissent as vital to the health of the republic.
One thing I don't understand... I just went to her gsfp site and I keep seeing Rick Overton at events. Ummm, why is there need for a comedian there??? Does he lighten the mood?
RICK OVERTON is a comedian, actor, writer, and creative consultant. He recently guest-starred on "Joan of Arcadia," "According to Jim" and "Curb Your Enthusiasm," and is a regular contributor to E! Entertainment's "Most Sensational Crimes of Fashion." Rick won an Emmy award for his work as the head writer of Dennis Miller's HBO series.
Overton has been doing political stuff in his stand up for years. I assume he has some activist involvement. What's the link???
My biggest prob with Sheehan is why should she get anymore coverage or have any more importance put on her opinion of the war than any other mother who has had their son die in Iraq, should a mother that believes the cause in Iraq is just get put on television everyday, you dudes would shitting your pants with anger if that was the case. The stuff she is saying is no diffenrent than what has been said a million times before, and the anti war groups have finally found thier poster child for thier cause, this makes me sick, just as sick as when I see wounded soldiers with "patriotic" country music playing in the background
I gotta agree with the general gist of the above statement. The discussion needs to move from making Bush apologize(NEVER going to happen) to 'how do we get this thing moving to completion?'. The discourse surrounding Sheehan (pro and con) has become so shrill and histrionic as to yeild a neutral situation at best, and frankly, demeaning the anti-war stance at worst.
Just my 2 cents.
I don't get it...I'm going to lunch. I'm going to listen to some Booker Ervin on the iRiver and try to forget how fucked up things are... Back in an hour....
Lar, you know where I stand on the war, that has not changed. I just think that there needs to be a way to advance the idea of 'getting out' that does not allow the Administration to simply turn it into a joke or otherwise discredit the idea as easily as they are this Crawford protest.
But I do ask one favor of you: please stop responding to Sabadabdoo or whatever the fuck his name is. He clearly has nothing but reactive junk to add to the discussion, but too many of you here are giving him credence by even answering his inane posts.
One thing I don't understand... I just went to her gsfp site and I keep seeing Rick Overton at events. Ummm, why is there need for a comedian there??? Does he lighten the mood?
RICK OVERTON is a comedian, actor, writer, and creative consultant. He recently guest-starred on "Joan of Arcadia," "According to Jim" and "Curb Your Enthusiasm," and is a regular contributor to E! Entertainment's "Most Sensational Crimes of Fashion." Rick won an Emmy award for his work as the head writer of Dennis Miller's HBO series.
Overton has been doing political stuff in his stand up for years. I assume he has some activist involvement. What's the link???
3) Cindy Sheehan's crowd*, Medea Benjamin, Michael Moore etc.*, are among the slimiest frauds who oppose the war. There are many noble arguments for opposing the war and even for pulling out our troops. But Norm Solomon and Michael Moore are not making them. Instead they peddle conspiracy meant to create an equivalency between our country and our enemies. Whether or not Cindy Sheehan has added her voice to say Juan Cole in forwarding the lie about how this war was fought on behalf of Israel and made possible by the machinations of a cabal of Jewish intellectuals is besides the point. She has certainly alligned herself with this hateful fringe of the anti-war movement. Anyway, it's nonsense. It starts by asking who benefits? and ends with Israel. But if we were to draw this out to its conclusions, then why don't these bigots say Bush fought the war on behalf of Iran? As it looks now, they are benefiting the most from the intervention.
The slimiest frauds?
If these folks* make complete fools out of themselves saying stupid leftist nonsense on the international media everyday for the rest of their lives, they could never come as close to harming as many poeple as George W. Bush and the other neo-con devils that you sold your soul to.
Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel. Am I stupid? No, I know full well that my son, my family, this nation and this world were betrayed by George Bush who was influenced by the neo-con PNAC agendas after 9/11. We were told that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hate our freedoms and democracy ??? not for the real reason, because the Arab Muslims who attacked us hate our middle-eastern foreign policy.
Hate to burst your bubble, twiddlestick, but Sheehan never said this. The quote was invented by the right-wing sleeze machine in a "letter" she sent to ABC News, which she never sent, but was "forwarded by a friend (someone she didn't know)." Hitchens was too drunk to fact check and he got punk'd. When asked about the quote by Anderson Cooper on CNN, she denies saying it: sorry foll
I challenge you to find confirmation of it anywhere outside the right wing blogosphere.
Dude, little secret... These wingnuts lie a lot and they'll smear anyone who steps in front of them. Don't believe the hype.
3) Cindy Sheehan's crowd*, Medea Benjamin, Michael Moore etc.*, are among the slimiest frauds who oppose the war. There are many noble arguments for opposing the war and even for pulling out our troops. But Norm Solomon and Michael Moore are not making them. Instead they peddle conspiracy meant to create an equivalency between our country and our enemies. Whether or not Cindy Sheehan has added her voice to say Juan Cole in forwarding the lie about how this war was fought on behalf of Israel and made possible by the machinations of a cabal of Jewish intellectuals is besides the point. She has certainly alligned herself with this hateful fringe of the anti-war movement. Anyway, it's nonsense. It starts by asking who benefits? and ends with Israel. But if we were to draw this out to its conclusions, then why don't these bigots say Bush fought the war on behalf of Iran? As it looks now, they are benefiting the most from the intervention.
The slimiest frauds?
If these folks* make complete fools out of themselves saying stupid leftist nonsense on the international media everyday for the rest of their lives, they could never come as close to harming as many poeple as George W. Bush and the other neo-con devils that you sold your soul to.
3) Cindy Sheehan's crowd*, Medea Benjamin, Michael Moore etc.*, are among the slimiest frauds who oppose the war. There are many noble arguments for opposing the war and even for pulling out our troops. But Norm Solomon and Michael Moore are not making them. Instead they peddle conspiracy meant to create an equivalency between our country and our enemies. Whether or not Cindy Sheehan has added her voice to say Juan Cole in forwarding the lie about how this war was fought on behalf of Israel and made possible by the machinations of a cabal of Jewish intellectuals is besides the point. She has certainly alligned herself with this hateful fringe of the anti-war movement. Anyway, it's nonsense. It starts by asking who benefits? and ends with Israel. But if we were to draw this out to its conclusions, then why don't these bigots say Bush fought the war on behalf of Iran? As it looks now, they are benefiting the most from the intervention.
The slimiest frauds?
If these folks* make complete fools out of themselves saying stupid leftist nonsense on the international media everyday for the rest of their lives, they could never come as close to harming as many poeple as George W. Bush and the other neo-con devils that you sold your soul to.
God save you, my friend.
I am so moved by your nuance and reason. How subtle to call those you disagree with "devils?" If the Iraqi people win the war, then the fascists who murdered Casey Sheehan will become bitter memories, and the neocons will be praised by Iraqis for ridding their country of a dictator put in place by previous American administrations. If the murderers of Casey Sheehan win, then yes the policy will be judged a failure and the Iraqi people will be forced live under a new murderous ruler or subject as they are now to vicious whims of civil war. World history is capricious and the power of luck should never be underestimated. But that said, I would rather lose the argument but be on the side of the Iraqi people, than allign my self with those who wish to abandon them. God save you too.
1) J Paycheck and others are correct that this war was woefully planned from the beginning. And there is no point in blaming anyone except the president. And as much as I agree with the reasons for going to war, it's now impossible to ignore the consequences of how poorly it has been led. We are running the risk of leaving Iraq with the traits of the worst regimes in the region. It will be simultaneously an Islamic Republic with a security service culled from the former tyrant's henchmen. This says nothing of the record setting corruption of the interim regime we empowered 14 months ago, or the graft and cruelty of so many of the bandit ex-CIA security firms.
Thank You.
How to get out is a conundrum. Nixon faced a similar problem. (Please I am not saying Iraq is Vietnam.) He spent years trying to find a way out of Vietnam, and in the end just pulled the troops.
Training Iraqi troops is a smoke screen. When the Iraqi people want to support the occupation, and the Iraqi goverment, they will run the insurgents out. The insurgents are no better armed or trained than the Iraqi police and military. They are just more motived and have more public support.
I used to believe, as you and John Kerry do, that we couldn't just pull out and leave the mess we made. Today I think we have no other choice. I assure you I am not happy about that.
3) Cindy Sheehan's crowd*, Medea Benjamin, Michael Moore etc.*, are among the slimiest frauds who oppose the war. There are many noble arguments for opposing the war and even for pulling out our troops. But Norm Solomon and Michael Moore are not making them. Instead they peddle conspiracy meant to create an equivalency between our country and our enemies. Whether or not Cindy Sheehan has added her voice to say Juan Cole in forwarding the lie about how this war was fought on behalf of Israel and made possible by the machinations of a cabal of Jewish intellectuals is besides the point. She has certainly alligned herself with this hateful fringe of the anti-war movement. Anyway, it's nonsense. It starts by asking who benefits? and ends with Israel. But if we were to draw this out to its conclusions, then why don't these bigots say Bush fought the war on behalf of Iran? As it looks now, they are benefiting the most from the intervention.
The slimiest frauds?
If these folks* make complete fools out of themselves saying stupid leftist nonsense on the international media everyday for the rest of their lives, they could never come as close to harming as many poeple as George W. Bush and the other neo-con devils that you sold your soul to.
God save you, my friend.
I am so moved by your nuance and reason. How subtle to call those you disagree with "devils?" If the Iraqi people win the war, then the fascists who murdered Casey Sheehan will become bitter memories, and the neocons will be praised by Iraqis for ridding their country of a dictator put in place by previous American administrations. If the murderers of Casey Sheehan win, then yes the policy will be judged a failure and the Iraqi people will be forced live under a new murderous ruler or subject as they are now to vicious whims of civil war. World history is capricious and the power of luck should never be underestimated. But that said, I would rather lose the argument but be on the side of the Iraqi people, than allign my self with those who wish to abandon them. God save you too.
That's not true. I don't call those I disagree with devils. In fact, I do not disagree with all neo-cons. I think there are merits to neoconservative theories. However, this group* implemented these theories in Iraq using massive US resources and caused massive amounts of death by using deception and the manipulation of facts. If those aren't the actions of devils, tell me what is?
"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall - think of it, always."
- Gandhi
this bit of dailogue from the film version of gandhi is on the OST. amazing quote and one of my favorite little drops to work into politically-oriented sets. now feel free to go back to arguing ...
"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall - think of it, always."
- Gandhi
this bit of dailogue from the film version of gandhi is on the OST. amazing quote and one of my favorite little drops to work into politically-oriented sets. now feel free to go back to arguing ...
Well they tell me of a pie up in the sky Waiting for me when I die But between the day you're born and when you die They never seem to hear even your cry
So as sure as the sun will shine I'm gonna get my share now of what's mine And then the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all Ooh, the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all
Well, the oppressors are tryin' to keep me down Tryin' to drive me underground And they think that they have got the battle won I say forgive them Lord, they know not what they've done
'Cos as sure as the sun will shine I'm gonna get my share now of what's mine And then the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all Ooh, the harder they come, harder they'll fall, one and all
Oh yeah, well oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah
But I'll keep on fighting for the things I want Though I know that when you're dead you can't But I'd rather be a free man in my grave Then living as a puppet or a slave
So as sure as the sun will shine I'm gonna get my share right now of what's mine And then the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all
"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall - think of it, always."
- Gandhi
this bit of dailogue from the film version of gandhi is on the OST. amazing quote and one of my favorite little drops to work into politically-oriented sets. now feel free to go back to arguing ...
Well they tell me of a pie up in the sky Waiting for me when I die But between the day you're born and when you die They never seem to hear even your cry
So as sure as the sun will shine I'm gonna get my share now of what's mine And then the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all Ooh, the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all
Well, the oppressors are tryin' to keep me down Tryin' to drive me underground And they think that they have got the battle won I say forgive them Lord, they know not what they've done
'Cos as sure as the sun will shine I'm gonna get my share now of what's mine And then the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all Ooh, the harder they come, harder they'll fall, one and all
Oh yeah, well oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah
But I'll keep on fighting for the things I want Though I know that when you're dead you can't But I'd rather be a free man in my grave Then living as a puppet or a slave
So as sure as the sun will shine I'm gonna get my share right now of what's mine And then the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all
harder they come ost very appropriate in this thread ...
"by the rivers of babylon" ... they fought and died for a bunch of fat rich fucks' lies ...
Comments
Haven't you been taking notes????
Which, by the way, for voices protesting this administration, ain't so easy these days...
in absence of celebrity scandal,
missing, runaway, protesting white women must get ratings,
why else would the press give them so much attention
at the cost of real or raer important newz
i bet there are plenty of moms in iraq that would like some face time with the prez
I gotta agree with the general gist of the above statement.
The discussion needs to move from making Bush apologize(NEVER going to happen) to 'how do we get this thing moving to completion?'. The discourse surrounding Sheehan (pro and con) has become so shrill and histrionic as to yeild a neutral situation at best, and frankly, demeaning the anti-war stance at worst.
Just my 2 cents.
Bush will never admit he made a mistake in this matter, and just to play devils advocate, I'd say it might be a good thing. As a (cough cough) leader he doesn't want to seem weak. Ego and attitude guides certain people more than the reality of any situation will sometimes.
And yes Moore is demonized in many media sources, but he does sort of bring it on himself. I mean he does know who is going to be covering him and it should be rather predictable what they are going to say about whatever cause he is on board with. Don't get me wrong, for the most part I love what he does, and most of that is cause he never tries to play the victim and whine about Fox News is going to portray him. Just knowing what image he has he sould of supported this cause from afar.
I don't get it...I'm going to lunch. I'm going to listen to some Booker Ervin on the iRiver and try to forget how fucked up things are...
Back in an hour....
What she wants is to end the war. Yes, it is impossible. It is as impossible as driving the British out of India with out an army. It as impossible as ending aparthid in South Africa through public opinion and sanctions. It is as impossible as ending the war in Vietnam by marching in the streets.
I wish her well.
Lar, you know where I stand on the war, that has not changed. I just think that there needs to be a way to advance the idea of 'getting out' that does not allow the Administration to simply turn it into a joke or otherwise discredit the idea as easily as they are this Crawford protest.
But I do ask one favor of you: please stop responding to Sabadabdoo or whatever the fuck his name is. He clearly has nothing but reactive junk to add to the discussion, but too many of you here are giving him credence by even answering his inane posts.
you act as though she is some messiah, if i read her statements i WILL believe
If you read her statements you can respond to her intellegently, rather than attacking her mindlessly.
Dan
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bullyard/msg/7f523b1a73be1a36?hl=en
1) J Paycheck and others are correct that this war was woefully planned from the beginning. And there is no point in blaming anyone except the president. And as much as I agree with the reasons for going to war, it's now impossible to ignore the consequences of how poorly it has been led. We are running the risk of leaving Iraq with the traits of the worst regimes in the region. It will be simultaneously an Islamic Republic with a security service culled from the former tyrant's henchmen. This says nothing of the record setting corruption of the interim regime we empowered 14 months ago, or the graft and cruelty of so many of the bandit ex-CIA security firms.
2) Cindy Sheehan's arguments, while I think are genuine, are not constructive. The most pressing question for any American now is how to win this war which we are now losing. She is not only demanding that we abandon Iraq's first elected government as they are writing a constitution, but that the president apologize for the sacrifice that her son made. She reasons the war was fought for reasons hidden from the public eye. But what of the other families that believe, as I do, that Saddam really was a threat to us and our allies, that Iraqi democracy is worth fighting for. If he appeases Cindy Sheehan he will no doubt sell out so many of the soldiers who still believe in the mission. He would also be sending a message to the Islamo-nihilists that America thinks it an error to defend their targets who are largely Iraqi civilians.
3) Cindy Sheehan's crowd, Medea Benjamin, Michael Moore etc., are among the slimiest frauds who oppose the war. There are many noble arguments for opposing the war and even for pulling out our troops. But Norm Solomon and Michael Moore are not making them. Instead they peddle conspiracy meant to create an equivalency between our country and our enemies. Whether or not Cindy Sheehan has added her voice to say Juan Cole in forwarding the lie about how this war was fought on behalf of Israel and made possible by the machinations of a cabal of Jewish intellectuals is besides the point. She has certainly alligned herself with this hateful fringe of the anti-war movement. Anyway, it's nonsense. It starts by asking who benefits? and ends with Israel. But if we were to draw this out to its conclusions, then why don't these bigots say Bush fought the war on behalf of Iran? As it looks now, they are benefiting the most from the intervention.
4) Big Spliff, come on. When you wrote that people who disagree with you are no better than pro-Kremlin Soviets, you are yourself betraying a certain Leninism. You are essentially accusing your opponents of false consciousness. It is this logic, I might add, that led to the jailing of so many dissidents in the Soviet bloc. As best I can tell, 3rd stream, and Sabadaba are not making broad statements about your psychological motivations. So why must you offer such flimsy counterfactuals about theirs? It's no better than right wing cranks who declare all war opponents to be traitors. There are many reasoned supporters of the war who also respect not only the right of their opponents to make their case, but like myself see such dissent as vital to the health of the republic.
Overton has been doing political stuff in his stand up for years. I assume he has some activist involvement. What's the link???
Point well taken Big C...
Ahh right.. Thx Didn't know who he was.
http://www.gsfp.org/
The slimiest frauds?
If these folks* make complete fools out of themselves saying stupid leftist nonsense on the international media everyday for the rest of their lives, they could never come as close to harming as many poeple as George W. Bush and the other neo-con devils that you sold your soul to.
God save you, my friend.
Right. Saying, that bull(shit)yard wasn't written by C. Sheehan. it's bunk, Toy.
Well fucking said...
I am so moved by your nuance and reason. How subtle to call those you disagree with "devils?" If the Iraqi people win the war, then the fascists who murdered Casey Sheehan will become bitter memories, and the neocons will be praised by Iraqis for ridding their country of a dictator put in place by previous American administrations. If the murderers of Casey Sheehan win, then yes the policy will be judged a failure and the Iraqi people will be forced live under a new murderous ruler or subject as they are now to vicious whims of civil war. World history is capricious and the power of luck should never be underestimated. But that said, I would rather lose the argument but be on the side of the Iraqi people, than allign my self with those who wish to abandon them. God save you too.
God no...but that is a jaunty beret...
Thank You.
How to get out is a conundrum.
Training Iraqi troops is a smoke screen. When the Iraqi people want to support the occupation, and the Iraqi goverment, they will run the insurgents out. The insurgents are no better armed or trained than the Iraqi police and military. They are just more motived and have more public support.
I used to believe, as you and John Kerry do, that we couldn't just pull out and leave the mess we made. Today I think we have no other choice. I assure you I am not happy about that.
When do you leave for Egypt?
Dan
That's not true. I don't call those I disagree with devils. In fact, I do not disagree with all neo-cons. I think there are merits to neoconservative theories. However, this group* implemented these theories in Iraq using massive US resources and caused massive amounts of death by using deception and the manipulation of facts. If those aren't the actions of devils, tell me what is?
*you know the roster: bush, rummy, cheney, wolfie, dickie pearl, rice, etc
this bit of dailogue from the film version of gandhi is on the OST. amazing quote and one of my favorite little drops to work into politically-oriented sets. now feel free to go back to arguing ...
Well they tell me of a pie up in the sky
Waiting for me when I die
But between the day you're born and when you die
They never seem to hear even your cry
So as sure as the sun will shine
I'm gonna get my share now of what's mine
And then the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all
Ooh, the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all
Well, the oppressors are tryin' to keep me down
Tryin' to drive me underground
And they think that they have got the battle won
I say forgive them Lord, they know not what they've done
'Cos as sure as the sun will shine
I'm gonna get my share now of what's mine
And then the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all
Ooh, the harder they come, harder they'll fall, one and all
Oh yeah, well oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah
But I'll keep on fighting for the things I want
Though I know that when you're dead you can't
But I'd rather be a free man in my grave
Then living as a puppet or a slave
So as sure as the sun will shine
I'm gonna get my share right now of what's mine
And then the harder they come, the harder they'll fall, one and all
harder they come ost very appropriate in this thread ...
"by the rivers of babylon" ...
they fought and died for a bunch of fat rich fucks' lies ...