I think many Obama supporters had unrealistic expectations from the get-go.
Other than way over spending he's done pretty much exactly as I expected.
The Feb 2011 deficit > than the entire 2007 deficit......somebody's "gettin paid".
The "over spending" was totally justified in order to avoid a depression that would have lasted for at least a decade.
The real problem remains "under taxing" and the historical gap between the rich and the poor.
Obama will be re-elected in 2012 because the Republicans have no one and nothing to offer as an alternative.
People who thought he would be some sort of avenging left-wing messiah were bound to be disappointed. They just don't understand how deeply conservative mythology is entrenched in this country, or how powerful money is.
The two truly transformative presidents in US history were Lincoln and FDR. Think about the catastrophic events they were involved with and ask if you're ready for a re-run. Because that's what it takes for the sort of massive realignment some people want.
Basically the complaints about Obama boil down to:
I'm arguing against an unrealistic vision of how our government operates, not any one person.
So you cannot name an individual you ascribe this unrealistic vision too? And their relevancy to the conversation at hand?
Why is it important to name names? You're coming across as itching for a fight, but I really don't want to give it to you.
z_illa said:
Unrealistic to me is not accepting he is the most powerful man in the world, more capable of changing things than any other person.
Straw man, and completely beside the point. We're talking about what he can and cannot do, not how that compares to the relative power of others. If I have ten dollars and everyone else in the room has five, I still can't buy a boat with ten dollars.
I have not seen anything I would consider a qualified success.
thats why i hope gas prices go through the roof. i dont think politicians will allow that to happen as long as they have some control over it. but $7 a gallon will shake people up and get them to push a bit harder for alternative energy systems ( or more likely, alternative parts of the world to exploit and go to war with)
More likely to see more drilliing within our borders and off our shores as well as a big push towards nuclear plants.
Yup, they are already discussing opening up "strategic oil reserves," bye bye coastlines and Alaska. DRILL BABY DRILL!
Frankly, I don't care about what Obama has to say about WI. I care a lot more that labor in that state are holding the line and gathering public support. The latter is far more meaningful than some presidential boilerplate.
You are implying the presidents opinion is meaningless?
Frankly, I don't care about what Obama has to say about WI. I care a lot more that labor in that state are holding the line and gathering public support. The latter is far more meaningful than some presidential boilerplate.
From what I can tell the Gov. of Wisconsin ran on this issue and won.....he's now trying to give the people what they voted for and the opposition are just not doing their job...which is to show up and vote.
Completely untrue. Walker didn't campaign on this issue at all.
Frankly, I don't care about what Obama has to say about WI. I care a lot more that labor in that state are holding the line and gathering public support. The latter is far more meaningful than some presidential boilerplate.
From what I can tell the Gov. of Wisconsin ran on this issue and won.....he's now trying to give the people what they voted for and the opposition are just not doing their job...which is to show up and vote.
Take a look at what Indiana did in a similar situation 5-6 years ago and see how it has affected their state for a recent historical perspective.
I'm somewhat amused when I hear the Wisconsin pro-Union contingency state that they are going to "Take the bastards down" in reference to "The Boss"(See the popular "Drop Kick Murphy" anthem) when in reality the "Boss" of those particular Wisconsin union workers in question are the taxpayers.
Rich:
1) re: Indiana
Evaluating the success of the policy depends on where you sit.
???It???s helped us in a thousand ways. It was absolutely central to our turnaround here,??? Mr. Daniels said in an interview. Without union contracts to slow him down, he said, it has been easy for him to merge the procurement operations of numerous state agencies, saving millions of dollars. One move alone ??? outsourcing and consolidating food service operations for Indiana???s 28 prisons ??? has saved the state $100 million since 2005, he said. Such moves led to hundreds losing their jobs.
For state workers in Indiana, the end of collective bargaining also meant a pay freeze in 2009 and 2010 and higher health insurance payments. Several state employees said they now paid $5,200 a year in premiums, $3,400 more than when Mr. Daniels took office, though there are cheaper plans available. Earlier in his tenure, Mr. Daniels adopted a merit pay system, with some employees receiving no raises and those deemed to be top performers getting up to 10 percent.
The unions have been willing to accept the pay cuts but not the end of collective bargaining. It doesn't seem to me that the state, as a whole, is backing Walker's play on this.
thats why i hope gas prices go through the roof. i dont think politicians will allow that to happen as long as they have some control over it. but $7 a gallon will shake people up and get them to push a bit harder for alternative energy systems ( or more likely, alternative parts of the world to exploit and go to war with)
More likely to see more drilliing within our borders and off our shores as well as a big push towards nuclear plants.
Yup, they are already discussing opening up "strategic oil reserves," bye bye coastlines and Alaska. DRILL BABY DRILL!
The strategic oil reserves have nothing to do with drilling, coastlines, or Alaska.
Why is it important to name names? You're coming across as itching for a fight, but I really don't want to give it to you.
Because you are coming across as screaming franticly and pointing at the boogeyman that the Huffington Post told you exists. I have never met a person who does not understand that the president has limits. That accusation is absurd.
z_illa said:
Unrealistic to me is not accepting he is the most powerful man in the world, more capable of changing things than any other person.
Straw man, and completely beside the point. We're talking about what he can and cannot do, not how that compares to the relative power of others. If I have ten dollars and everyone else in the room has five, I still can't buy a boat with ten dollars.
If everyone in the room has 5 dollars, Barack will get more for it than I will.
thats why i hope gas prices go through the roof. i dont think politicians will allow that to happen as long as they have some control over it. but $7 a gallon will shake people up and get them to push a bit harder for alternative energy systems ( or more likely, alternative parts of the world to exploit and go to war with)
$7 a gallon isn't going to do shit. A lot of whining and talk but nothing would change. Gas price in Germany is 1,60 Euro the liter. Translated into gallon and US$ this would be $8,40 per gallon.
Meanwhile you can buy vegetable oil at $3 a gallon and run a diesel engine with it.
Some people have got their hands in your pockets and that's never going to change.
Great if sad original post.
I feel really bad for all the good people who put work and energy into his campaign.
They should claim back that peace nobel prize. That was some sort of joke that I still can't understand.
Frankly, I don't care about what Obama has to say about WI. I care a lot more that labor in that state are holding the line and gathering public support. The latter is far more meaningful than some presidential boilerplate.
You are implying the presidents opinion is meaningless?
Talk about being unrealistic.
"Far more meaningful" is not the same thing as "meaningless."
My bigger point is that I'm not waiting for Superman in the form of Obama. Most presidents have to be dragged into any kind of meaningful progressive social change. Obama won't be much different.
The two truly transformative presidents in US history were Lincoln and FDR. Think about the catastrophic events they were involved with and ask if you're ready for a re-run. Because that's what it takes for the sort of massive realignment some people want.
Or something less catastrophic like the Gulf of Tonkin or 9/11, but something tells me the next catastrophic event isn't going to usher in Lincoln or FDR type of reforms. It'll be more like full on conservative fascism and martial law.
thats why i hope gas prices go through the roof. i dont think politicians will allow that to happen as long as they have some control over it. but $7 a gallon will shake people up and get them to push a bit harder for alternative energy systems ( or more likely, alternative parts of the world to exploit and go to war with)
More likely to see more drilliing within our borders and off our shores as well as a big push towards nuclear plants.
Yup, they are already discussing opening up "strategic oil reserves," bye bye coastlines and Alaska. DRILL BABY DRILL!
The strategic oil reserves have nothing to do with drilling, coastlines, or Alaska.
thats why i hope gas prices go through the roof. i dont think politicians will allow that to happen as long as they have some control over it. but $7 a gallon will shake people up and get them to push a bit harder for alternative energy systems ( or more likely, alternative parts of the world to exploit and go to war with)
$7 a gallon isn't going to do shit. A lot of whining and talk but nothing would change. Gas price in Germany is 1,60 Euro the liter. Translated into gallon and US$ this would be $8,40 per gallon..
Frank: the key difference is that gas in Europe has historically cost a shit load more than it does in the U.S. Even adjusted for inflation, the only times Americans have had to pay $4 or more at the pump have been in the late 1970s and in 2008. If gas hits $7/gallon, there's no telling how exactly people will react, especially as the higher cost of gas gets passed down the consumer pipeline b/c of increased overhead for businesses.
I don't expect that the reaction will be a nation full of shrugs though. Americans don't care about The Local German Experience ;)
Frankly, I don't care about what Obama has to say about WI. I care a lot more that labor in that state are holding the line and gathering public support. The latter is far more meaningful than some presidential boilerplate.
From what I can tell the Gov. of Wisconsin ran on this issue and won.....he's now trying to give the people what they voted for and the opposition are just not doing their job...which is to show up and vote.
Take a look at what Indiana did in a similar situation 5-6 years ago and see how it has affected their state for a recent historical perspective.
I'm somewhat amused when I hear the Wisconsin pro-Union contingency state that they are going to "Take the bastards down" in reference to "The Boss"(See the popular "Drop Kick Murphy" anthem) when in reality the "Boss" of those particular Wisconsin union workers in question are the taxpayers.
Rich:
1) re: Indiana
Evaluating the success of the policy depends on where you sit.
???It???s helped us in a thousand ways. It was absolutely central to our turnaround here,??? Mr. Daniels said in an interview. Without union contracts to slow him down, he said, it has been easy for him to merge the procurement operations of numerous state agencies, saving millions of dollars. One move alone ??? outsourcing and consolidating food service operations for Indiana???s 28 prisons ??? has saved the state $100 million since 2005, he said. Such moves led to hundreds losing their jobs.
For state workers in Indiana, the end of collective bargaining also meant a pay freeze in 2009 and 2010 and higher health insurance payments. Several state employees said they now paid $5,200 a year in premiums, $3,400 more than when Mr. Daniels took office, though there are cheaper plans available. Earlier in his tenure, Mr. Daniels adopted a merit pay system, with some employees receiving no raises and those deemed to be top performers getting up to 10 percent.
The unions have been willing to accept the pay cuts but not the end of collective bargaining. It doesn't seem to me that the state, as a whole, is backing Walker's play on this.
Do Federal workers have collective bargaining??
As far as Indiana goes, yes, to curtail over spending and balance a budget someone has to bite the bullet......except on Gum Drop Island where they have magic wands.
The two truly transformative presidents in US history were Lincoln and FDR. Think about the catastrophic events they were involved with and ask if you're ready for a re-run. Because that's what it takes for the sort of massive realignment some people want.
Or something less catastrophic like the Gulf of Tonkin or 9/11, but something tells me the next catastrophic event isn't going to usher in Lincoln or FDR type of reforms. It'll be more like full on conservative fascism and martial law.
The Tonkin incident and 9/11 aren't even close to being the catastrophic events the Civil War or the Great Depression/WW2 were. I doubt that more than 10% of the population could even tell you what "Gulf of Tonkin" means.
Frankly, I don't care about what Obama has to say about WI. I care a lot more that labor in that state are holding the line and gathering public support. The latter is far more meaningful than some presidential boilerplate.
You are implying the presidents opinion is meaningless?
Talk about being unrealistic.
"Far more meaningful" is not the same thing as "meaningless."
My bigger point is that I'm not waiting for Superman in the form of Obama. Most presidents have to be dragged into any kind of meaningful progressive social change. Obama won't be much different.
Labor holding the line + Obama doing nothing = x
Labor holding the line + Obama expressing his opinion as a democrat who won with support of labor = less than x ??????
Because you are coming across as screaming franticly and pointing at the boogeyman that the Huffington Post told you exists. I have never met a person who does not understand that the president has limits. That accusation is absurd.
First, I don't read the Huffington Post, and am quite moderate in my political leanings. Second, we live in a country where 6% of our 18-24 year olds can't find America on a map of the world. Your suggestion that the entire populace has an accurate working knowledge of America's tripartite representative democracy is what's laughable.
In summary, you have too high of an opinion of the intelligence and political savvy of the American populace. Also, you mad, so go ahead and rage against the machine, doggy. Go tell it on the mountain.
thats why i hope gas prices go through the roof. i dont think politicians will allow that to happen as long as they have some control over it. but $7 a gallon will shake people up and get them to push a bit harder for alternative energy systems ( or more likely, alternative parts of the world to exploit and go to war with)
More likely to see more drilliing within our borders and off our shores as well as a big push towards nuclear plants.
Yup, they are already discussing opening up "strategic oil reserves," bye bye coastlines and Alaska. DRILL BABY DRILL!
The strategic oil reserves have nothing to do with drilling, coastlines, or Alaska.
One will lead to the other.
With an alternate energy source being the ultimate solution.......
Who would choose invading/exploiting another nation for their oil over drilling on our land/water and/or getting it from friendly governments south and north of our own borders??
Obama will be re-elected in 2012 because the Republicans have no one and nothing to offer as an alternative.
The two truly transformative presidents in US history were Lincoln and FDR. Think about the catastrophic events they were involved with and ask if you're ready for a re-run. Because that's what it takes for the sort of massive realignment some people want.
1) I wouldn't get too comfortable at the idea that 2012 is a lock. Obama in 2008 should be proof of this.
2) I'm not sure if I get your second point above. I mean, the Great Recession is pretty damn bad so whether we want a re-run or not is besides the point: we're living through it. The question is how the US will bounce back this time around compared to in the 1930/40s. Hopefully, it doesn't involve another world war.
The strategic oil reserves have nothing to do with drilling, coastlines, or Alaska.
yup, but where dems want to tap the reserves to avoid spike hikes, conservatives want to drill everywhere.
we just got a feisty republican governor here in PA, campaign funded mightily by Gas interests...and low and behold he is kicking in the door to let private companies drill thousands of wells in the Marcellus Shale, practically unregulated. privatize profits, socialize costs. DEelaware Watershed is sure to suffer pretty serious consequences. the only bare bones empty bitter upside is that all the dicks upstate who voted him in are gonna have poisonous cancer causing radioactive water table seeping into their homesteader wells. we about to be a scarred third world landscape all for the sake of cheap energy.
no matter who the president is-the oil companies,the pentagon and the military industrial complex are in charge.
.
add to that illicit drug trade[currently afghanistan/colombia???[.previously the golden triangle in the 60s/70s]]
big pharma and the corrupt banking system/ponzi scheme that the federal reserve is -throw in the dogs from the IRS and sweeten with tea party idiots/most [racist]middle americans???..and whats left?
that will never change
i voted on abortion in an attempt to keep it real and simple
i never realized how racist and dumbed down america is from my city slicker vantage.
-it never became more evident until barry became pres
i just can't bear to read any commentary on any given yahoo news story anymore
8 out of 10 americans are moronic recalcitrant racists
Labor holding the line + Obama doing nothing = x
Labor holding the line + Obama expressing his opinion as a democrat who won with support of labor = less than x ??????
cant agree enough. he should be using this to highlight how anti-working class republicans and teabaggers are. punch that bitch walker in the gut over this and play up how its always alterior motives with these dudes.
but no. big ol whiff and missed opportunity, O
Wait, am I the only one to think 6% is pretty low? Just saying.
Well, dude, they're American and it's America. That's like saying 6% of them couldn't find the front of the map. For a more robust number, 50% couldn't find New York on a map of the US.
The strategic oil reserves have nothing to do with drilling, coastlines, or Alaska.
yup, but where dems want to tap the reserves to avoid spike hikes, conservatives want to drill everywhere.
we just got a feisty republican governor here in PA, campaign funded mightily by Gas interests...and low and behold he is kicking in the door to let private companies drill thousands of wells in the Marcellus Shale, practically unregulated. privatize profits, socialize costs. DEelaware Watershed is sure to suffer pretty serious consequences. the only bare bones empty bitter upside is that all the dicks upstate who voted him in are gonna have poisonous cancer causing radioactive water table seeping into their homesteader wells. we about to be a scarred third world landscape all for the sake of cheap energy.
Link please how drilling for natural gas creates a radioactive water table?
Because you are coming across as screaming franticly and pointing at the boogeyman that the Huffington Post told you exists. I have never met a person who does not understand that the president has limits. That accusation is absurd.
First, I don't read the Huffington Post, and am quite moderate in my political leanings. Second, we live in a country where 6% of our 18-24 year olds can't find America on a map of the world. Your suggestion that the entire populace has an accurate working knowledge of America's tripartite representative democracy is what's laughable.
In summary, you have too high of an opinion of the intelligence and political savvy of the American populace. Also, you mad, so go ahead and rage against the machine, doggy. Go tell it on the mountain.
I don't believe in lowering the level of discourse to accommodate the least intelligent in the room, especially when they are on the porch. Sorry.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Obama called for all of us to pitch in. What are you doing within your communities to pitch in?
As far as Indiana goes, yes, to curtail over spending and balance a budget someone has to bite the bullet......except on Gum Drop Island where they have magic wands.
rock , from what i understand, cutting taxes on the highest sectors has had a significant impact on budget shortfalls. grover norquist "starve the beast" strategy: cut taxes at the top, create budget problems, cut back the safety net and government, privatize as much as possible, etc. Class warfare in a nutshell.
Comments
The "over spending" was totally justified in order to avoid a depression that would have lasted for at least a decade.
The real problem remains "under taxing" and the historical gap between the rich and the poor.
Obama will be re-elected in 2012 because the Republicans have no one and nothing to offer as an alternative.
People who thought he would be some sort of avenging left-wing messiah were bound to be disappointed. They just don't understand how deeply conservative mythology is entrenched in this country, or how powerful money is.
The two truly transformative presidents in US history were Lincoln and FDR. Think about the catastrophic events they were involved with and ask if you're ready for a re-run. Because that's what it takes for the sort of massive realignment some people want.
Basically the complaints about Obama boil down to:
"What? No magic wand?"
There are no magic wands, kids.
Why is it important to name names? You're coming across as itching for a fight, but I really don't want to give it to you.
Straw man, and completely beside the point. We're talking about what he can and cannot do, not how that compares to the relative power of others. If I have ten dollars and everyone else in the room has five, I still can't buy a boat with ten dollars.
That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it.
Yup, they are already discussing opening up "strategic oil reserves," bye bye coastlines and Alaska. DRILL BABY DRILL!
You are implying the presidents opinion is meaningless?
Talk about being unrealistic.
He definitely ran on cutting spending / costs and balancing a budget.
I don't believe in magic wands either.
Completely untrue. Walker didn't campaign on this issue at all.
http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/22/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-he-campaigned-his-/
Rich:
1) re: Indiana
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/business/27collective-bargain.html
2) As for this notion of a "mandate", I really doubt Walker got elected primarily on the collective bargaining issue. I'm sure voters want him to fix the state budget that the means to which he can accomplish that are not solely predicated on ending collective bargaining rights. And in any case:
"Most Wisconsin voters oppose efforts to weaken collective bargaining rights for union workers but a plurality are supportive of significant pay cuts for state workers."
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_state_surveys/wisconsin/wisconsin_poll_support_for_budget_cutting_not_for_weakening_collective_bargaining_rights
The unions have been willing to accept the pay cuts but not the end of collective bargaining. It doesn't seem to me that the state, as a whole, is backing Walker's play on this.
The strategic oil reserves have nothing to do with drilling, coastlines, or Alaska.
Because you are coming across as screaming franticly and pointing at the boogeyman that the Huffington Post told you exists. I have never met a person who does not understand that the president has limits. That accusation is absurd.
If everyone in the room has 5 dollars, Barack will get more for it than I will.
$7 a gallon isn't going to do shit. A lot of whining and talk but nothing would change. Gas price in Germany is 1,60 Euro the liter. Translated into gallon and US$ this would be $8,40 per gallon.
Meanwhile you can buy vegetable oil at $3 a gallon and run a diesel engine with it.
Some people have got their hands in your pockets and that's never going to change.
Great if sad original post.
I feel really bad for all the good people who put work and energy into his campaign.
They should claim back that peace nobel prize. That was some sort of joke that I still can't understand.
"Far more meaningful" is not the same thing as "meaningless."
My bigger point is that I'm not waiting for Superman in the form of Obama. Most presidents have to be dragged into any kind of meaningful progressive social change. Obama won't be much different.
Or something less catastrophic like the Gulf of Tonkin or 9/11, but something tells me the next catastrophic event isn't going to usher in Lincoln or FDR type of reforms. It'll be more like full on conservative fascism and martial law.
One will lead to the other.
Frank: the key difference is that gas in Europe has historically cost a shit load more than it does in the U.S. Even adjusted for inflation, the only times Americans have had to pay $4 or more at the pump have been in the late 1970s and in 2008. If gas hits $7/gallon, there's no telling how exactly people will react, especially as the higher cost of gas gets passed down the consumer pipeline b/c of increased overhead for businesses.
I don't expect that the reaction will be a nation full of shrugs though. Americans don't care about The Local German Experience ;)
Do Federal workers have collective bargaining??
As far as Indiana goes, yes, to curtail over spending and balance a budget someone has to bite the bullet......except on Gum Drop Island where they have magic wands.
The Tonkin incident and 9/11 aren't even close to being the catastrophic events the Civil War or the Great Depression/WW2 were. I doubt that more than 10% of the population could even tell you what "Gulf of Tonkin" means.
Labor holding the line + Obama doing nothing = x
Labor holding the line + Obama expressing his opinion as a democrat who won with support of labor = less than x ??????
First, I don't read the Huffington Post, and am quite moderate in my political leanings. Second, we live in a country where 6% of our 18-24 year olds can't find America on a map of the world. Your suggestion that the entire populace has an accurate working knowledge of America's tripartite representative democracy is what's laughable.
In summary, you have too high of an opinion of the intelligence and political savvy of the American populace. Also, you mad, so go ahead and rage against the machine, doggy. Go tell it on the mountain.
With an alternate energy source being the ultimate solution.......
Who would choose invading/exploiting another nation for their oil over drilling on our land/water and/or getting it from friendly governments south and north of our own borders??
1) I wouldn't get too comfortable at the idea that 2012 is a lock. Obama in 2008 should be proof of this.
2) I'm not sure if I get your second point above. I mean, the Great Recession is pretty damn bad so whether we want a re-run or not is besides the point: we're living through it. The question is how the US will bounce back this time around compared to in the 1930/40s. Hopefully, it doesn't involve another world war.
yup, but where dems want to tap the reserves to avoid spike hikes, conservatives want to drill everywhere.
we just got a feisty republican governor here in PA, campaign funded mightily by Gas interests...and low and behold he is kicking in the door to let private companies drill thousands of wells in the Marcellus Shale, practically unregulated. privatize profits, socialize costs. DEelaware Watershed is sure to suffer pretty serious consequences. the only bare bones empty bitter upside is that all the dicks upstate who voted him in are gonna have poisonous cancer causing radioactive water table seeping into their homesteader wells. we about to be a scarred third world landscape all for the sake of cheap energy.
Wait, am I the only one to think 6% is pretty low? Just saying.
.
add to that illicit drug trade[currently afghanistan/colombia???[.previously the golden triangle in the 60s/70s]]
big pharma and the corrupt banking system/ponzi scheme that the federal reserve is -throw in the dogs from the IRS and sweeten with tea party idiots/most [racist]middle americans???..and whats left?
that will never change
i voted on abortion in an attempt to keep it real and simple
i never realized how racist and dumbed down america is from my city slicker vantage.
-it never became more evident until barry became pres
i just can't bear to read any commentary on any given yahoo news story anymore
8 out of 10 americans are moronic recalcitrant racists
Well, dude, they're American and it's America. That's like saying 6% of them couldn't find the front of the map. For a more robust number, 50% couldn't find New York on a map of the US.
Link please how drilling for natural gas creates a radioactive water table?
I don't believe in lowering the level of discourse to accommodate the least intelligent in the room, especially when they are on the porch. Sorry.
rock , from what i understand, cutting taxes on the highest sectors has had a significant impact on budget shortfalls. grover norquist "starve the beast" strategy: cut taxes at the top, create budget problems, cut back the safety net and government, privatize as much as possible, etc. Class warfare in a nutshell.