The Beatles have a lot of baggage associated with them. While I agree that they are definitely more important in the scheme of rock and pop overall (and I actually think that as far as straight-up rock bands almost everything that came after them was introduced by them) I would probably rather listen to an early BBs album than an early Beatles (the hits are less played-out, the Beatles early albums have too many lame covers) and I will never listen to any single Beatles record as much as I have Pet Sounds or Smile.
I also think that had Brian Wilson not had his breakdown that the BBs would have continued to be seen as neck-and-neck competitors w.the Beatles in the late 60s (which they were for only Pet Sounds and the singles immediately following it), which could've changed things in the 70s...
haha not at all - i love the Beatles, i was a real stan as a teenager. But i don't think any of their albums start to finish are amazing, and I think Pet Sounds is far more consistent than any of them. i think Rubber Soul is the most consistent of their albums tbh.
"Consistent" is the lamest and most useless critical buzzword there is.
haha not at all - i love the Beatles, i was a real stan as a teenager. But i don't think any of their albums start to finish are amazing, and I think Pet Sounds is far more consistent than any of them. i think Rubber Soul is the most consistent of their albums tbh.
"Consistent" is the lamest and most useless critical buzzword there is.
Yeah, I prefer records that only have one or two good songs on them to ones that are good all the way through.
I also think that had Brian Wilson not had his breakdown that the BBs would have continued to be seen as neck-and-neck competitors w.the Beatles in the late 60s (which they were for only Pet Sounds and the singles immediately following it), which could've changed things in the 70s...
This thread has now entered the realm of fan fiction.
I think, like, if Hendrix had only slept on his side, he'd eventually have become the emperor of the whole world, man.
I think if Smile had come out in late 66 as planned it would have blew everything else out of the water and changed the musical landscape. Really wonder if Sgt Pepper would have quite had the same impact when that dropped in Jun 67 if Smile had already been around for 6 months.
Friends for me is their post Pet Sounds classic.
Always loved the 5 tracks on Summer Days (And Summer Nights) LP ie Girl Don't Tell Me, Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, Let Him Run Wild and You're So Good To Me. Nice progression towards the Pet Sounds 'sound'.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
The thing people forget about The Beach Boys and The Beatles - in fact, about pop music in the early/mid 60s generally, but those acts in particular - is that they were all making it up as they went along. There weren't any rules or established practices and ways of doing things that they had to cleave to in order to be successful. Nobody was telling them they couldn't do this, that or the other, but nor did they have any idea of what they could do - everyone was pretty much winging it. For all anyone in the music business knew back then, rock music could have been just another trend that would eventually go the way of the big bands. But right there and then, these longhairs were selling a lot of records, so the guys at the labels - who didn't know any better, after all - were happy to give them a free rein.
In recent years, I've noticed how more and more people have begun to judge bands like these by current values, so you get people spouting idiotic shit like "the Beatles were the first boy band", as if a facile, reductionist statement like that is on its own enough to invalidate everything they ever did. Sure, they weren't the only game in town, but nonetheless the continuing attempts to diminish the achievements of certain acts seems to be part of a widespread, that-don't-impress-me-much tendency to take their innovations - manifold and significant - for granted, as if, say, the Pixies or Nirvana could still have existed and gone on to have the impact they did if you were to completely erase the Beatles or the Beach Boys from history.
The great thing about this thread and the "overrated" one is that they sent me back to things like Brian Wilson's demo for Surf's Up, which is just astounding to me. It occurred to me that, instead of being all "nyah-nyah-nyah, Be True To Your School sucks, dude", maybe what people ought to be focusing is how in the hell he got from something as insubstantial and throwaway as that to Surf's Up in three fucking years. As artistic quantum leaps go, that could even be greater than She Loves You to Tomorrow Never Knows. It's like people who trash McCartney for occasionally doing little kid's songs and nursery rhymes or cornball shit like Mull Of Kintyre or Ebony and Ivory. Yeah, forget Helter Skelter, She's Leaving Home, Maybe I'm Amazed or Hey Jude - the real measure of the artist is whatever some dorky rock-snob decrees to be their cheesiest moment. I mean, whenever I hear someone using something like The Frog Chorus as a stick to beat McCartney with, I know immediately that I'm dealing with an idiot.
And yeah, if Smile had come out in 1967 as intended, who knows? Certainly there are things on that record that are compositionally light years ahead of anything else in pop at the time. And it's really something else the way that embittered, no-count troglodyte Mike Love (or Fuck Mike Love, as I prefer to call him) has begun to claim that, hey, well, y'know, most of the ideas for Pet Sounds and Smile - the really good ideas - were mine...
Doc.....good post.....Elvis spawned the "Teen Idol" in R&R, not unlike what Sinatra was in his day. The basics of how to create, groom and market a teen idol was on the books by 1964. The "British Invasion" followed that path.
If the Beatles had released 3-4 LP's and faded away they would have been nothing BUT a "boy band" as we like to call them today.
But they grew, matured and evolved as a band and what they wound up being was a far cry from what they began as. This was, and still is, an oddity, as the majority of pop and rock artists that have come post-64 usually created their best music early on and then got worse due to the stress of record labels insisting they spit out gems every 9 months in some sort of "formula" that the Beatles helped create the blueprint for(and only sustained for 4-5 years).
You are 100% correct in that the Beatles blazed trails at a time when there were no "rules".
A lot of things will have to change if we're ever going to see something like that in popular music again.
hi little girl, it's me don't you know who I am?
I met you last summer when you came up to stay with my Gran.
well I'm the guy-uy-uy who left you with tears in his eyes
you didn't answer my letter, so I figured it was just a lie ...
girl don't tell me you'll write - girl don't tell me you'll wri-i-ite -
girl don't tell me you'll write me again this time.
your hair's getting long and your shorts, mmm they sure fit you fine
I bet you went out every night during your school time -
but this ti-i-ime I'm not gonna count on you ...
I'll see you this summer and forget you when I go back to school.
girl don't tell me you'll wri-i-ite - girl don't tell me you'll wri-i-ite -
girl don't tell me you'll write me again this time.
All of the supposedly redeeming songs that you dudes have poasted are wack as hell
but you generally hate music...you love timberterd and the occasional 50s jazz piece. That's the only shit I have ever heard you champion on here. You have the taste of a 14 year old girls' mall boutique PA and a 68 year old dentists' office. Who gives a flying fuck what you think?
All of the supposedly redeeming songs that you dudes have poasted are wack as hell
but you generally hate music...you love timberterd and the occasional 50s jazz piece. That's the only shit I have ever heard you champion on here. You have the taste of a 14 year old girls' mall boutique PA and a 68 year old dentists' office. Who gives a flying fuck what you think?
I have no idea what music FR likes, but I know from these forums he like nothing better than to tell other people that the music they love really sucks.
All of the supposedly redeeming songs that you dudes have poasted are wack as hell
but you generally hate music...you love timberterd and the occasional 50s jazz piece. That's the only shit I have ever heard you champion on here. You have the taste of a 14 year old girls' mall boutique PA and a 68 year old dentists' office.
You act like Brian Wilson wasn't dropping acid and studying cosmic/ world religion/ philosophy.
Smile was quote "a teenage symphony to God". Here's the huge difference between The Beach Boys and Justin Bieber, fucking everything. The popularity is just a shitty reflection of how bad are modern music scene has deteriorated.
The Beach Boys are like the Beethoven of the 20th century. Brian's movements are rapid and executed with building triumph. The ability to not be denied by the masses, but touching on deep (& revolutionary levels) no true, open, passionate musician can deny.
And they sound nothing like Chuck Berry. That's like saying most hip hop since Primo and Pete is derivative, and a rip off of their style (which some is). They are too influential and layed down milestone sounds in the genre where everything afterward owes some due to that, whether it be major or minor.
The Beach Boys are like the Beethoven of the 20th century. Brian's movements are rapid and executed with building triumph. The ability to not be denied by the masses, but touching on deep (& revolutionary levels) no true, open, passionate musician can deny.
And they sound nothing like Chuck Berry. That's like saying most hip hop since Primo and Pete is derivative, and a rip off of their style (which some is). They are too influential and layed down milestone sounds in the genre where everything afterward owes some due to that, whether it be major or minor.
"Surfin USA" is a straight-up plagiaristic rip-off of Berry's "Sweet Little Sixteen." The Bitch Boys took full credit for the song until Berry complained, and they caved and gave him a credit. I'm not sure if that ever happened to Beethoven.
If you think the Bitch Boys are more influential than Berry, well what can I say.
What's the Beethoven equivalent of drivel like "Be True To Your School"?
That's a bit like saying the Beatles never progressed beyond "I Want to Hold Your Hand".
Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. "Across The Universe" and "The Long and Winding Road" combined aren't worth 10% of IWTHYH. "She's Leaving Home" is worth even less.
"Surfin USA" is a straight-up plagiaristic rip-off of Berry's "Sweet Little Sixteen." The Bitch Boys took full credit for the song until Berry complained, and they caved and gave him a credit. I'm not sure if that ever happened to Beethoven.
If you think the Bitch Boys are more influential than Berry, well what can I say.
What's the Beethoven equivalent of drivel like "Be True To Your School"?
Beethoven's "Battle Symphony" isn't exactly "The Emperor".
I didn't claim they were more influential then Chuck Berry. Every rock artist owes Chuck Berry a degree of respect. I don't despise early Beach Boys, but its certainly not what I think of as masterpiece material. Then again does anyone listen to Pablo Honey?
And I can't believe no one who hates them has insulted them on Brian's obvious Phil Spector stylings. That's an easy one. (Then again maybe someone has, I didn't read the whole thread)
That's a bit like saying the Beatles never progressed beyond "I Want to Hold Your Hand".
Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. "Across The Universe" and "The Long and Winding Road" combined aren't worth 10% of IWTHYH. "She's Leaving Home" is worth even less.
"I Want to Hold Your Hand" is a great pop song. One of the best. The three songs you mentioned are not, but they certainly illustrate John and Paul's progression as song-writers. I really like all four...
The Beach Boys (Brian Wilson) followed a very similar progression. I don't think it's fair to judge their influence based solely on music from the first handful of albums.
The Radiohead comparsion is apt. I really don't care for much of their output beyond "OK Computer" but I also don't think you could form an accurate opinion of them based solely off of Pablo Honey (or "The Bends" which I still probably like the best).
That's a bit like saying the Beatles never progressed beyond "I Want to Hold Your Hand".
Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. "Across The Universe" and "The Long and Winding Road" combined aren't worth 10% of IWTHYH. "She's Leaving Home" is worth even less.
"I Want to Hold Your Hand" is a great pop song. One of the best. The three songs you mentioned are not, but they certainly illustrate John and Paul's progression as song-writers. I really like all four...
The Beach Boys (Brian Wilson) followed a very similar progression. I don't think it's fair to judge their influence based solely on music from the first handful of albums.
The Radiohead comparsion is apt. I really don't care for much of their output beyond "OK Computer" but I also don't think you could form an accurate opinion of them based solely off of Pablo Honey (or "The Bends" which I still probably like the best).
Oh, I was thinking that by "progression" you meant "getting better."
You seriously like "She's Leaving Home"? That song makes me cringe and always has.
That's a bit like saying the Beatles never progressed beyond "I Want to Hold Your Hand".
Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. "Across The Universe" and "The Long and Winding Road" combined aren't worth 10% of IWTHYH. "She's Leaving Home" is worth even less.
"I Want to Hold Your Hand" is a great pop song. One of the best. The three songs you mentioned are not, but they certainly illustrate John and Paul's progression as song-writers. I really like all four...
The Beach Boys (Brian Wilson) followed a very similar progression. I don't think it's fair to judge their influence based solely on music from the first handful of albums.
The Radiohead comparsion is apt. I really don't care for much of their output beyond "OK Computer" but I also don't think you could form an accurate opinion of them based solely off of Pablo Honey (or "The Bends" which I still probably like the best).
Oh, I was thinking that by "progression" you meant "getting better."
You seriously like "She's Leaving Home"? That song makes me cringe and always has.
It's cool. It's certainly not a song I seek out very often, but if I've actually gone through the trouble to pull out "Sqt. Pepper's..." I'm probably in a bit of a nostalgic, contemplative mode anyway. It makes me think of my daughter...
Comments
The Beatles have a lot of baggage associated with them. While I agree that they are definitely more important in the scheme of rock and pop overall (and I actually think that as far as straight-up rock bands almost everything that came after them was introduced by them) I would probably rather listen to an early BBs album than an early Beatles (the hits are less played-out, the Beatles early albums have too many lame covers) and I will never listen to any single Beatles record as much as I have Pet Sounds or Smile.
I also think that had Brian Wilson not had his breakdown that the BBs would have continued to be seen as neck-and-neck competitors w.the Beatles in the late 60s (which they were for only Pet Sounds and the singles immediately following it), which could've changed things in the 70s...
"Consistent" is the lamest and most useless critical buzzword there is.
Yeah, I prefer records that only have one or two good songs on them to ones that are good all the way through.
This thread has now entered the realm of fan fiction.
I think, like, if Hendrix had only slept on his side, he'd eventually have become the emperor of the whole world, man.
Friends for me is their post Pet Sounds classic.
Always loved the 5 tracks on Summer Days (And Summer Nights) LP ie Girl Don't Tell Me, Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, Let Him Run Wild and You're So Good To Me. Nice progression towards the Pet Sounds 'sound'.
In recent years, I've noticed how more and more people have begun to judge bands like these by current values, so you get people spouting idiotic shit like "the Beatles were the first boy band", as if a facile, reductionist statement like that is on its own enough to invalidate everything they ever did. Sure, they weren't the only game in town, but nonetheless the continuing attempts to diminish the achievements of certain acts seems to be part of a widespread, that-don't-impress-me-much tendency to take their innovations - manifold and significant - for granted, as if, say, the Pixies or Nirvana could still have existed and gone on to have the impact they did if you were to completely erase the Beatles or the Beach Boys from history.
The great thing about this thread and the "overrated" one is that they sent me back to things like Brian Wilson's demo for Surf's Up, which is just astounding to me. It occurred to me that, instead of being all "nyah-nyah-nyah, Be True To Your School sucks, dude", maybe what people ought to be focusing is how in the hell he got from something as insubstantial and throwaway as that to Surf's Up in three fucking years. As artistic quantum leaps go, that could even be greater than She Loves You to Tomorrow Never Knows. It's like people who trash McCartney for occasionally doing little kid's songs and nursery rhymes or cornball shit like Mull Of Kintyre or Ebony and Ivory. Yeah, forget Helter Skelter, She's Leaving Home, Maybe I'm Amazed or Hey Jude - the real measure of the artist is whatever some dorky rock-snob decrees to be their cheesiest moment. I mean, whenever I hear someone using something like The Frog Chorus as a stick to beat McCartney with, I know immediately that I'm dealing with an idiot.
And yeah, if Smile had come out in 1967 as intended, who knows? Certainly there are things on that record that are compositionally light years ahead of anything else in pop at the time. And it's really something else the way that embittered, no-count troglodyte Mike Love (or Fuck Mike Love, as I prefer to call him) has begun to claim that, hey, well, y'know, most of the ideas for Pet Sounds and Smile - the really good ideas - were mine...
Fuck Mike Love.
If the Beatles had released 3-4 LP's and faded away they would have been nothing BUT a "boy band" as we like to call them today.
But they grew, matured and evolved as a band and what they wound up being was a far cry from what they began as. This was, and still is, an oddity, as the majority of pop and rock artists that have come post-64 usually created their best music early on and then got worse due to the stress of record labels insisting they spit out gems every 9 months in some sort of "formula" that the Beatles helped create the blueprint for(and only sustained for 4-5 years).
You are 100% correct in that the Beatles blazed trails at a time when there were no "rules".
A lot of things will have to change if we're ever going to see something like that in popular music again.
Who cares if they were pop or not?
bike horns and all.
I met you last summer when you came up to stay with my Gran.
well I'm the guy-uy-uy who left you with tears in his eyes
you didn't answer my letter, so I figured it was just a lie ...
girl don't tell me you'll write - girl don't tell me you'll wri-i-ite -
girl don't tell me you'll write me again this time.
your hair's getting long and your shorts, mmm they sure fit you fine
I bet you went out every night during your school time -
but this ti-i-ime I'm not gonna count on you ...
I'll see you this summer and forget you when I go back to school.
girl don't tell me you'll wri-i-ite - girl don't tell me you'll wri-i-ite -
girl don't tell me you'll write me again this time.
not an amazingly constructive post i know. Its one of the few tunes at all where the lyrics really resonate with me though.
It sounded like a lot of fun, but I never followed up on it, so I'm curious if you guys recommend any official / unofficial "rarities" ?
but you generally hate music...you love timberterd and the occasional 50s jazz piece. That's the only shit I have ever heard you champion on here. You have the taste of a 14 year old girls' mall boutique PA and a 68 year old dentists' office. Who gives a flying fuck what you think?
I have no idea what music FR likes, but I know from these forums he like nothing better than to tell other people that the music they love really sucks.
i would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.
LOL
I'll be that
Around 3:06... :feelin_it:
Even him doing it live is kinda brilliant.
Smile was quote "a teenage symphony to God". Here's the huge difference between The Beach Boys and Justin Bieber, fucking everything. The popularity is just a shitty reflection of how bad are modern music scene has deteriorated.
The Beach Boys are like the Beethoven of the 20th century. Brian's movements are rapid and executed with building triumph. The ability to not be denied by the masses, but touching on deep (& revolutionary levels) no true, open, passionate musician can deny.
And they sound nothing like Chuck Berry. That's like saying most hip hop since Primo and Pete is derivative, and a rip off of their style (which some is). They are too influential and layed down milestone sounds in the genre where everything afterward owes some due to that, whether it be major or minor.
"Surfin USA" is a straight-up plagiaristic rip-off of Berry's "Sweet Little Sixteen." The Bitch Boys took full credit for the song until Berry complained, and they caved and gave him a credit. I'm not sure if that ever happened to Beethoven.
If you think the Bitch Boys are more influential than Berry, well what can I say.
What's the Beethoven equivalent of drivel like "Be True To Your School"?
Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. "Across The Universe" and "The Long and Winding Road" combined aren't worth 10% of IWTHYH. "She's Leaving Home" is worth even less.
Beethoven's "Battle Symphony" isn't exactly "The Emperor".
I didn't claim they were more influential then Chuck Berry. Every rock artist owes Chuck Berry a degree of respect. I don't despise early Beach Boys, but its certainly not what I think of as masterpiece material. Then again does anyone listen to Pablo Honey?
And I can't believe no one who hates them has insulted them on Brian's obvious Phil Spector stylings. That's an easy one. (Then again maybe someone has, I didn't read the whole thread)
"I Want to Hold Your Hand" is a great pop song. One of the best. The three songs you mentioned are not, but they certainly illustrate John and Paul's progression as song-writers. I really like all four...
The Beach Boys (Brian Wilson) followed a very similar progression. I don't think it's fair to judge their influence based solely on music from the first handful of albums.
The Radiohead comparsion is apt. I really don't care for much of their output beyond "OK Computer" but I also don't think you could form an accurate opinion of them based solely off of Pablo Honey (or "The Bends" which I still probably like the best).
Oh, I was thinking that by "progression" you meant "getting better."
You seriously like "She's Leaving Home"? That song makes me cringe and always has.
It's cool. It's certainly not a song I seek out very often, but if I've actually gone through the trouble to pull out "Sqt. Pepper's..." I'm probably in a bit of a nostalgic, contemplative mode anyway. It makes me think of my daughter...