And the original question asked which RELATIVELY Unknown bands.
I think VU fits into the relativity category. They might be huge now, but when they were together, outside of the NYC art scene, they were relatively unknown. Yet, they were clearly influential, which lead to their future fame. Same for the Sonics.
I can see wanting to keep it to bands (or recording artists). But when someone is as influential and relatively unknown as Otis Blackwell it is good to mention his name.
Guitarist credited with being the first to use feedback/influence Hendrix:
Albert Collins
Guitar Slim
Johnny Watson
Pete Townsend
Henry Vestine
Jimmy Page
Jeff Beck
Link Wray
Dave Davies
Steve Merriot
Muddy Waters
Jimmy Reed
Elmore James
Freddie King
Hubert Sumlin
Eric Clapton
Johnny Jenkins
Howling Wolf
BB King
Albert King (What's Freddie Chopped Liver?)
Lighning Hopkins
Buddy Guy
According to Wikipedia according to All Music the first use of feedback on a rock record was... The Beatles I Feel Fine.
None of this is my opinion. I just thought it would be fun to google guitar feedback and influenced Hendrix and make a list of names.
I don't doubt any of it, but... Hendrix had huge ears and listened to everything. Piano players, sax players, waterfalls and crosstown traffic all influenced him I would guess. As a working musician he probably did most his listening in clubs either on stage or backstage.
I guess you could get into those who influenced-the-influential ... but that brings the question of how much affect did these people really have?
Yeah, this is an issue. I call this the "Slim Gaillard Invented Rap" Conundrum (aka "Dilla v. log-drum"), and find that it hampers real discussion.
It's muddy waters, though, because artists are so often on some bullshit, name-checking Burrito Brothers and whatnot when their real influence is The Eagles. I generally can't really fuck with Monster Magnet, but I read a great interview with Dave Wyndorf a few years back where he was taking to task all these rocker dudes who talk about being influenced by Robert Johnson only because they know it sounds cooler than saying you got into the game because of Kix or whatever.
I guess you could get into those who influenced-the-influential ... but that brings the question of how much affect did these people really have?
Yeah, this is an issue. I call this the "Slim Gaillard Invented Rap" Conundrum (aka "Dilla v. log-drum"), and find that it hampers real discussion.
It's muddy waters, though, because artists are so often on some bullshit, name-checking Burrito Brothers and whatnot when their real influence is The Eagles. I generally can't really fuck with Monster Magnet, but I read a great interview with Dave Wyndorf a few years back where he was taking to task all these rocker dudes who talk about being influenced by Robert Johnson only because they know it sounds cooler than saying you got into the game because of Kix or whatever.
p.s.: On a related note, to hear the sound of three worlds colliding and at least one collapsing, check out that Wax Poetics article where Dr. Know talks about Bad Brains' guitar sound being heavily influenced by Winger.
I would disagree with that. For all those neo-soul dudes (the stateside ones at least), Terence Trent D'Arby was far more integral. Sade was probably the blueprint, but she was (and still kinda is) too good, too female, and too sui generis for anyone to emulate too closely. D'Arby kinda took her thing and showed how it could be configured for male expression. After him, le deluge. I question how much Omar really figured into it.
During the 90s, I had a brief and fairly undistinguished career in a&r, working for an independent music publisher. One of the directors of the company knew Omar's dad Byron and his business partner at Kongo Dance, Root Jackson (ex- of FBI, whose only self-titled album is a UK raer of some note), from BITD. Matter of fact, he once told me the story of how they all conspired to get Omar his first deal - basically a bit of old-fashioned pranksterism straight out of the Malcolm McLaren playbook, but that's a story for another time.
Anyway, I was trying to sign Vannessa Simon, Root's daughter, whose second album was just about to come out. I don't know if it ever did - I only have a cassette copy of it, and I haven't seen that for years. One of the tracks was her and Omar duetting on Holding You, Loving You, but I'm digressing yet again. Root was after a deal for the publishing on the FBI album, which had recently been reissued, and he was using Vannessa's publishing as a bargaining chip. I never did land the deal, but we did have several enjoyable meetings - and this is probably why I was a failure as an a&r man - where we spent most of the time shooting the shit about music, particularly black British music and its relationship with its US counterpart. As you might expect, Omar's name came up and, shortly afterwards, those of D'Angelo and Maxwell did too. According to Root, D'Angelo had personally told Omar that his second album in particular had been a big influence on D'Angelo's first, and he reckoned that Maxwell was definitely aware of him too. Now, while this is hardly what you'd call a conclusive answer to your question about how much Omar figured into it, one thing I'm sure of is that people were certainly asking that question at the time, and there was widespread support for the idea that he figured into it quite significantly.
Interesting to hear TTD offered up as a pioneer of that whole style, though. That's a new one on me. Obviously, he'd have had the higher profile, having had actual hits in the US, and there was also that song of his that Heavy D sampled - the one that he claimed came to him in a dream courtesy of Marvin Gaye. But the thing I always got off him - and this may just be an issue of differing perceptions in the US and UK - was that he was more of a throwback, happy to walk in the shadow of James Brown, Sam Cooke, Sly, even Prince. Having now given it a bit of thought, I can see how your assertion would make sense - as much as he saw himself as part of that lineage, he was also keen to set himself apart from the Glenn Jones/Alexander O'Neal/Freddie Jackson type of singer who was dominating r&b at the time, and that was equally true of the approach that D'Angelo, Maxwell, Rahsaan Patterson, Eric Benet and man dem were taking, even if some of them ended up becoming yer modern-era equivalents of Glenn Jones, etc.
But to briefly return to Vannessa Simon, this is why I wanted to sign her. Nine months ago, there wasn't even this much on YouTube, so we're moving in the right direction.
I think it was probably true that TTD was thought of as more of a retro guy when his first LP hit, but by the second one he was definitely more on the proto neo-soul tip. It seemed like he recognized that being the 80's Sam Cooke was going to have a short shelf life, and was looking to Prince's example as an artist who came from a soul background to make music that encompassed much more than "just" soul. The problem is he isn't talented enough to do the one man band thing like Prince (and how many people are?), but he didn't or wouldn't hook up with a producer who could help him edit and reduce all of his ideas down to his strongest material, so his albums end up kind of unfocused and scattershot, with some great bits mixed in. Sade was influential on the sound of neo-soul for sure, but I don't think she or her band was someone who made those guys say "I can do that too" the way TTD did.
According to Root, D'Angelo had personally told Omar that his second album in particular had been a big influence on D'Angelo's first, and he reckoned that Maxwell was definitely aware of him too. Now, while this is hardly what you'd call a conclusive answer to your question about how much Omar figured into it, one thing I'm sure of is that people were certainly asking that question at the time, and there was widespread support for the idea that he figured into it quite significantly.
Interesting to hear TTD offered up as a pioneer of that whole style, though. That's a new one on me. Obviously, he'd have had the higher profile, having had actual hits in the US, and there was also that song of his that Heavy D sampled - the one that he claimed came to him in a dream courtesy of Marvin Gaye. But the thing I always got off him - and this may just be an issue of differing perceptions in the US and UK - was that he was more of a throwback, happy to walk in the shadow of James Brown, Sam Cooke, Sly, even Prince. Having now given it a bit of thought, I can see how your assertion would make sense - as much as he saw himself as part of that lineage, he was also keen to set himself apart from the Glenn Jones/Alexander O'Neal/Freddie Jackson type of singer who was dominating r&b at the time, and that was equally true of the approach that D'Angelo, Maxwell, Rahsaan Patterson, Eric Benet and man dem were taking, even if some of them ended up becoming yer modern-era equivalents of Glenn Jones, etc.
That's really interesting.
I guess I see the TTD parallel in that 1) though they ended up a little further left, D'Angelo and Maxwell both came in sounding a little more smooth and supper-clubby, very much in that smoky-room throwback mode, and 2) while they were unabashed in working retro sounds, they always kept a modern aesthetic. They weren't on some Pasadenas shit with their clothes and hair and all that.
I probably need to fall back, though, because while I'm acquainted with Omar's music, I don't really have a sense of his larger context. I'm an adherent to Occam's Razor, and I always heard Maxwell n' nem mention TTD, so I assumed... But who knows--maybe as a non-contemporary he was the safer one to shout out, while Omar was really what was up. "Never trust the artist, trust the tale."
And that second youtube sounds all right. Nice Roy Ayers feel to it. Part of me wonders whether there was ever a motion to title the album Two Ns, Two Ss.
TTD and Sade pre-date Omar but Omar first album has electronic/Hip Hop leanings. That's '91.
BET used to have a mid-day show that was ALL Alt-Soul. Omar's Saturday in '94 was in rotation.
Brown Sugar debuts a year later and becomes a part of that video show along with later to come Maxwell and Erykah......IIRC.
Ill give TTD and Sade as the blueprints but OMAR I think links up w/ Neo-Soul proper because of the production style. Sade did drop a breakbeat on some official remixes, but Neo-Soul's Hip Hop Influence isnt as strong IMO w/ Matthewman and TTD.
Ive read and heard that the big names now drop OMAR as the father to the style, even when he wasnt a household name w/ the R&B commmunity back in the early 90's.
Ill give TTD and Sade as the blueprints but OMAR I think links up w/ Neo-Soul proper because of the production style.
Oh, for sure.
I don't doubt (or I don't anymore, anyway) that Omar was maybe a more direct/immediate influence. My skepticism is whether he really is thee artist without which neo-soul would not have been, which was the initial point that I was responding to.
Ill give TTD and Sade as the blueprints but OMAR I think links up w/ Neo-Soul proper because of the production style.
Oh, for sure.
I don't doubt (or I don't anymore, anyway) that Omar was maybe a more direct/immediate influence. My skepticism is whether he really is thee artist without which neo-soul would not have been, which was the initial point that I was responding to.
No doubt.
I cant go from Sade/TTD to D'Angelo, Maxwell, and Badu, w/ out that middle time of SoulIISoul, Carleen Anderson, Tha Family Stand, Loose Ends, Mica Paris, Dionne Farris, and Omar.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
batmon said:
My co-worker said The Killing Joke.
Yeah, I can see that - post-punk, proto-industrial, a good deal more groove-based than many of their peers. Easy to imagine the likes of Nine Inch Nails, Frontline Assembly, Ministry and others like them taking a few cues from KJ. They were certainly influential enough for Nirvana to jack one of their songs for Come As You Are.
Comments
I think VU fits into the relativity category. They might be huge now, but when they were together, outside of the NYC art scene, they were relatively unknown. Yet, they were clearly influential, which lead to their future fame. Same for the Sonics.
I can see wanting to keep it to bands (or recording artists). But when someone is as influential and relatively unknown as Otis Blackwell it is good to mention his name.
Albert Collins
Guitar Slim
Johnny Watson
Pete Townsend
Henry Vestine
Jimmy Page
Jeff Beck
Link Wray
Dave Davies
Steve Merriot
Muddy Waters
Jimmy Reed
Elmore James
Freddie King
Hubert Sumlin
Eric Clapton
Johnny Jenkins
Howling Wolf
BB King
Albert King (What's Freddie Chopped Liver?)
Lighning Hopkins
Buddy Guy
According to Wikipedia according to All Music the first use of feedback on a rock record was... The Beatles I Feel Fine.
None of this is my opinion. I just thought it would be fun to google guitar feedback and influenced Hendrix and make a list of names.
I don't doubt any of it, but... Hendrix had huge ears and listened to everything. Piano players, sax players, waterfalls and crosstown traffic all influenced him I would guess. As a working musician he probably did most his listening in clubs either on stage or backstage.
It's muddy waters, though, because artists are so often on some bullshit, name-checking Burrito Brothers and whatnot when their real influence is The Eagles. I generally can't really fuck with Monster Magnet, but I read a great interview with Dave Wyndorf a few years back where he was taking to task all these rocker dudes who talk about being influenced by Robert Johnson only because they know it sounds cooler than saying you got into the game because of Kix or whatever.
p.s.: On a related note, to hear the sound of three worlds colliding and at least one collapsing, check out that Wax Poetics article where Dr. Know talks about Bad Brains' guitar sound being heavily influenced by Winger.
DCarfagna went as mid-period Jandek. Again.
This is the Strut equivelant of going as "Red Shirt #3" in The Trouble With Tribbles episdoe of Star Trek.
BOUGHT ANOTHER COPY OF FRAGILE, SEEDS WERE BUSTIN' UP THE SPINE
Weird Al + Erol Otus, dunny. Don't scandalize mine.
Crass
seems like they would fit the bill...
During the 90s, I had a brief and fairly undistinguished career in a&r, working for an independent music publisher. One of the directors of the company knew Omar's dad Byron and his business partner at Kongo Dance, Root Jackson (ex- of FBI, whose only self-titled album is a UK raer of some note), from BITD. Matter of fact, he once told me the story of how they all conspired to get Omar his first deal - basically a bit of old-fashioned pranksterism straight out of the Malcolm McLaren playbook, but that's a story for another time.
Anyway, I was trying to sign Vannessa Simon, Root's daughter, whose second album was just about to come out. I don't know if it ever did - I only have a cassette copy of it, and I haven't seen that for years. One of the tracks was her and Omar duetting on Holding You, Loving You, but I'm digressing yet again. Root was after a deal for the publishing on the FBI album, which had recently been reissued, and he was using Vannessa's publishing as a bargaining chip. I never did land the deal, but we did have several enjoyable meetings - and this is probably why I was a failure as an a&r man - where we spent most of the time shooting the shit about music, particularly black British music and its relationship with its US counterpart. As you might expect, Omar's name came up and, shortly afterwards, those of D'Angelo and Maxwell did too. According to Root, D'Angelo had personally told Omar that his second album in particular had been a big influence on D'Angelo's first, and he reckoned that Maxwell was definitely aware of him too. Now, while this is hardly what you'd call a conclusive answer to your question about how much Omar figured into it, one thing I'm sure of is that people were certainly asking that question at the time, and there was widespread support for the idea that he figured into it quite significantly.
Interesting to hear TTD offered up as a pioneer of that whole style, though. That's a new one on me. Obviously, he'd have had the higher profile, having had actual hits in the US, and there was also that song of his that Heavy D sampled - the one that he claimed came to him in a dream courtesy of Marvin Gaye. But the thing I always got off him - and this may just be an issue of differing perceptions in the US and UK - was that he was more of a throwback, happy to walk in the shadow of James Brown, Sam Cooke, Sly, even Prince. Having now given it a bit of thought, I can see how your assertion would make sense - as much as he saw himself as part of that lineage, he was also keen to set himself apart from the Glenn Jones/Alexander O'Neal/Freddie Jackson type of singer who was dominating r&b at the time, and that was equally true of the approach that D'Angelo, Maxwell, Rahsaan Patterson, Eric Benet and man dem were taking, even if some of them ended up becoming yer modern-era equivalents of Glenn Jones, etc.
But to briefly return to Vannessa Simon, this is why I wanted to sign her. Nine months ago, there wasn't even this much on YouTube, so we're moving in the right direction.
That's really interesting.
I guess I see the TTD parallel in that 1) though they ended up a little further left, D'Angelo and Maxwell both came in sounding a little more smooth and supper-clubby, very much in that smoky-room throwback mode, and 2) while they were unabashed in working retro sounds, they always kept a modern aesthetic. They weren't on some Pasadenas shit with their clothes and hair and all that.
I probably need to fall back, though, because while I'm acquainted with Omar's music, I don't really have a sense of his larger context. I'm an adherent to Occam's Razor, and I always heard Maxwell n' nem mention TTD, so I assumed... But who knows--maybe as a non-contemporary he was the safer one to shout out, while Omar was really what was up. "Never trust the artist, trust the tale."
And that second youtube sounds all right. Nice Roy Ayers feel to it. Part of me wonders whether there was ever a motion to title the album Two Ns, Two Ss.
Which reminds me of one I definitely think qualifies - the Residents.
(I heard records by both bands for the 1st time on the same night in 1979 and never really recovered.)
BET used to have a mid-day show that was ALL Alt-Soul. Omar's Saturday in '94 was in rotation.
Brown Sugar debuts a year later and becomes a part of that video show along with later to come Maxwell and Erykah......IIRC.
Ill give TTD and Sade as the blueprints but OMAR I think links up w/ Neo-Soul proper because of the production style. Sade did drop a breakbeat on some official remixes, but Neo-Soul's Hip Hop Influence isnt as strong IMO w/ Matthewman and TTD.
Ive read and heard that the big names now drop OMAR as the father to the style, even when he wasnt a household name w/ the R&B commmunity back in the early 90's.
I don't doubt (or I don't anymore, anyway) that Omar was maybe a more direct/immediate influence. My skepticism is whether he really is thee artist without which neo-soul would not have been, which was the initial point that I was responding to.
No doubt.
I cant go from Sade/TTD to D'Angelo, Maxwell, and Badu, w/ out that middle time of SoulIISoul, Carleen Anderson, Tha Family Stand, Loose Ends, Mica Paris, Dionne Farris, and Omar.
Kindly,
parallax
One of the band members just sold an OG on ebay for $150.
There are copies of the recent Anopheles reissue up, too. It's got an extra track. Great album.
On that same note...Showboys.
Yeah, I can see that - post-punk, proto-industrial, a good deal more groove-based than many of their peers. Easy to imagine the likes of Nine Inch Nails, Frontline Assembly, Ministry and others like them taking a few cues from KJ. They were certainly influential enough for Nirvana to jack one of their songs for Come As You Are.