Whilst I would completely concur with everything else you say, I'd question whether Bitches Brew was Miles' biggest-ever seller. It may have been at the time, but surely Kind Of Blue has outstripped it by now?
Yes, Get Up With It and everything post Bitches Brew is mediocre at best.
Subjective, but I would have a hard time describing Dark Magus as 'mediocre'.
DrWu said:
Crouch rightly points out that Miles' early 70 oeuvre has not aged well, nor is it terribly influential outside of Pat Metheny's house.
This is straight up nonsense.
Of course my (and likewise your) opinion of the music is subjective. But my reading of whether or this music had any lasting impact in popular or jazz music is incontestable. By and large this music was critically panned within the popular and jazz music worIds at the time of its release. Nor were they commercially successful. At best there has been a little revisonism from today's collectro community. With some hipsters wearing On The Corner shirts in Billyburg But even there I wouldn't say there exists any kind of consensus that this is great music. Unlike say Skip Spence's Oar or Neil Young's On the Beach, both of which were critical and commercial failures upon their release which are viewed quite favorably today. Let's be honest, only the most die hardcore dudes are listening to Dark Magus right now. I believe this is explained because of the music's deep suckitude. You may choose to believe otherwise. I ain't mad at ya. But I patiently await your explanation of its utter critical and commercial failure on grounds other than it sucks.
Sorry, this is just flat out incorrct.
Bitches Brew is one of the biggest selling jazz records of all time and the biggest selling record Miles aver did, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that this music was not successful, and it also received tons of positive critical reviews, so that doesn't make any sense either.
The BB band directly spawned Return To Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra and Weather Report who combined to sell tens of millions of albums and win numerous Grammys and other awards. In addition BB was the touchstone for the entire 'fusion' movement which was huge globally.
Anyone who thinks that this music was inconsequential just doesn't know their history.
Whilst I would completely concur with everything else you say, I'd question whether Bitches Brew was Miles' biggest-ever seller. It may have been at the time, but surely Kind Of Blue has outstripped it by now?
Which is why I very specifically wrote "post Bitches Brew". I was gonna bring up Weather Report, MO and RTF as examples of bands that literally came directly from that record who were very successful commercially if not critically. It's important to note that Bitches Brew was also both critically (the only jazz record in Rolling Stones top 100 1967-1987, for example) and commercially very successful. There exists a strong consensus that this is/was great music. I am not sold on the argument that On The Corner et al merits the same status.
The fact that LIVE/EVIL moves at Good Music tells me that it has attained viability amongst a very specific subset of our society who frequent such stores. That does not translate to me that the music has attained wider importance. The bands that Dwaylijo (sorry if I mangled that) noted are all obscure acts that even someone who spends way too much time on music like me is not totally aware of (The Necks?) which only further illustrates my point about their marginal status within our culture. I hope I don't need to point out that just because I say the music sucks doesn't mean that anyone who likes it is stupid. It really is a personal thing at that level. But trying to say that the music commands significant cultural influence is quite another and I see no evidence to support that claim. I think Crouch got this right in the debate with Mtume.
Whilst I would completely concur with everything else you say, I'd question whether Bitches Brew was Miles' biggest-ever seller. It may have been at the time, but surely Kind Of Blue has outstripped it by now?
The fact that LIVE/EVIL moves at Good Music tells me that it has attained viability amongst a very specific subset of our society who frequent such stores.
You sure seem to know a lot about who these people are. Care to elaborate?
Whilst I would completely concur with everything else you say, I'd question whether Bitches Brew was Miles' biggest-ever seller. It may have been at the time, but surely Kind Of Blue has outstripped it by now?
This could well be true.
Kind of Blue has sold 4 million as of 2008. Bitches Brew went gold but I see no definitive to date numbers
Whilst I would completely concur with everything else you say, I'd question whether Bitches Brew was Miles' biggest-ever seller. It may have been at the time, but surely Kind Of Blue has outstripped it by now?
This could well be true.
Kind of Blue has sold 4 million as of 2008. Bitches Brew went gold but I see no definitive to date numbers
A cursory google search reveals that BB was certified platinum in 2003.
Head Hunters was the first jazz record to be certified gold by the RIAA. Not sure what that really means though - surely a jazz record had sold this well prior to Head Hunters, it was just tougher to measure overall sales?
It seems odd that Kind Of Blue would've been able to make up several million copies since 1973, although I guess that title has never really gone out of print.
The fact that LIVE/EVIL moves at Good Music tells me that it has attained viability amongst a very specific subset of our society who frequent such stores.
You sure seem to know a lot about who these people are. Care to elaborate?
Whilst I would completely concur with everything else you say, I'd question whether Bitches Brew was Miles' biggest-ever seller. It may have been at the time, but surely Kind Of Blue has outstripped it by now?
This could well be true.
I think it is. A cursory Internet search tells me that BB only went platinum in 2003, while Kind of Blue has since gone 4x platinum.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
batmon said:
So is Clive Davis lying about Miles Davis debt to the company?
From everything I've ever read about Clive Davis (which is a fair bit), it's unlikely he would have been thinking in such brazen, money-oriented terms back then. Clive's myth is/was very much dependent upon him being seen as "the artist's friend", and Columbia as an artist-driven label. More plausible would be that he'd seen Miles hit big with a rock/crossover audience with Bitches Brew and had tried to persuade him to pursue a more commercial direction.
So is Clive Davis lying about Miles Davis debt to the company?
From everything I've ever read about Clive Davis (which is a fair bit), it's unlikely he would have been thinking in such brazen, money-oriented terms back then. Clive's myth is/was very much dependent upon him being seen as "the artist's friend", and Columbia as an artist-driven label. More plausible would be that he'd seen Miles hit big with a rock/crossover audience with Bitches Brew and had tried to persuade him to pursue a more commercial direction.
The fact that LIVE/EVIL moves at Good Music tells me that it has attained viability amongst a very specific subset of our society who frequent such stores.
You sure seem to know a lot about who these people are. Care to elaborate?
I will not. You're talking out of your ass, even after I stated that people buying this stuff are far from the typical soulstruttin' type of record collectors I'm sure you envision.
There's really no "type" of person that shops here.
The fact that LIVE/EVIL moves at Good Music tells me that it has attained viability amongst a very specific subset of our society who frequent such stores.
You sure seem to know a lot about who these people are. Care to elaborate?
Jonny's point is correct. Right now the people in my store range from ages 19-65 and are buying all different kinds of music - what 'subset' are they part of?
The bands that Dwaylijo (sorry if I mangled that) noted are all obscure acts that even someone who spends way too much time on music like me is not totally aware of (The Necks?) which only further illustrates my point about their marginal status within our culture.
Haha, no offense taken. My name's been spelled way worse than that before!
I hate to ask, but is this just because you don't pay attention to newer jazz releases? If you look at a guy like John Scofield - who played on a few of the later Miles Davis releases - he sells a pretty good number of records (for a jazz guy), and he can sell out venues in most places that have a big enough jazz community. Medeski, Martin and Wood sell a gang of records. The Necks are relatively well-known in Europe and Australia (from what I hear). Dave Douglas does quite well for himself, too, even though he's played on releases with John Zorn of all people.
Of course they don't enjoy as high a profile as someone like Miles Davis would have in the pre-Bitches Brew era, but few jazz musicians do unless they happen to be married to Lyle Lovett or Ravi Shankar's daughter.
The fact that LIVE/EVIL moves at Good Music tells me that it has attained viability amongst a very specific subset of our society who frequent such stores.
You sure seem to know a lot about who these people are. Care to elaborate?
I will not. You're talking out of your ass, even after I stated that people buying this stuff are far from the typical soulstruttin' type of record collectors I'm sure you envision.
There's really no "type" of person that shops here.
Perhaps you have cracked the code and unlike every other boutique record store in this country you serve a similar demographic as Walmart or the local drugstore and not one made up largely of music nuts. I suspect not but congratulations if you have. You claim that you see electric Miles in lots of black people's record collections. That's not been my experience. No big deal. We disagree as to the relative cultural merits of Post Bitches Brew Miles Davis that happens. Whatever the case, I am most assuredly not talking out of my ass.
It's friday night, I'm tipsy off some wine and Santiago about to go to this karaoke party with a bunch of beckys (sports R). I wish I had time to get all blog-a-rific with you guys on the merits of post-BB Miles, but I'm too busy doing the Jarrett Spaz to "Rated X" (LOUD) again...and again...and again. Need a good dose of nasty for all this top 40 poop I'll be listening to the rest of the night.
Yeah yeah I know that utoob is the Laswell mix. OG mix wasn't there, but it's pumping here. Deal.
YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAOOOOW on the one
Have a nice weekend y'all.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
batmon said:
DocMcCoy said:
batmon said:
So is Clive Davis lying about Miles Davis debt to the company?
From everything I've ever read about Clive Davis (which is a fair bit), it's unlikely he would have been thinking in such brazen, money-oriented terms back then. Clive's myth is/was very much dependent upon him being seen as "the artist's friend", and Columbia as an artist-driven label. More plausible would be that he'd seen Miles hit big with a rock/crossover audience with Bitches Brew and had tried to persuade him to pursue a more commercial direction.
So Crouch is misquoting?
He might be. I'm not certain precisely what it is he's quoting from, though. I mean, I could imagine Clive Davis saying to Miles or someone, "We need a hit", or "It'd be great to get another hit". But telling an artist they need to be making more money for the label sounds a little out of character for Clive around that time. In the early 70s, the bean-counters hadn't yet taken over, and there was still the sense at the majors that they were dealing with Art and Artists. If you'd just had the biggest hit of your career, as Miles had with Bitches Brew, there might be people at the label urging you to do more of the same, but anything more aggressive than that would be a little out of step with the prevailing mood.
The fact that LIVE/EVIL moves at Good Music tells me that it has attained viability amongst a very specific subset of our society who frequent such stores.
You sure seem to know a lot about who these people are. Care to elaborate?
I will not. You're talking out of your ass, even after I stated that people buying this stuff are far from the typical soulstruttin' type of record collectors I'm sure you envision.
There's really no "type" of person that shops here.
Perhaps you have cracked the code and unlike every other boutique record store in this country you serve a similar demographic as Walmart or the local drugstore and not one made up largely of music nuts. I suspect not but congratulations if you have. You claim that you see electric Miles in lots of black people's record collections. That's not been my experience. No big deal. We disagree as to the relative cultural merits of Post Bitches Brew Miles Davis that happens. Whatever the case, I am most assuredly not talking out of my ass.
Take that educated northwesterner shit somewhere else holmes. You're getting schooled and you don't even know the bell rang. You wear momjeans and think borders is a superior establishment to barnes & noble. You must deal.
Post Bitches Brew is required listening in my books. I know that's totally subjective, but there you have it. I'm listening to "Miles Davis at Fillmore" right now and at the beginning of the liner notes it states: "You can dismiss Miles Davis, but you'll come back to him".
Crouch' s argument that fusion sucked because it petered out, didn't go anywhere, is bunk. All musical styles follow a lifeline that often is inexorably linked to the collective of musicians that birthed then nurtured them.
Seriously though what is the point of trying to advance a spurious argument like "what the walmart shopper listens to as opposed to the music nut".
Are you seriously trying to argue the unimportance of electric-period Miles Davis because it doesn't sell to Walmart shoppers?
[crossthreadpolination alert]
Really?
@JP I am saying that you run a boutique and like all boutiques it tends to serve a range of people with a very specific interest in something (quality music). Thus people shopping at your store and buying electric Miles does not make me reconsider whether or not his music from that time period has deep roots in our popular culture. Perhaps for you that does. I really don't need to fight with you about it. We can agree to disagree.
Horse, in fact I was saying what you didn't want me to say, only would add "people who like to buy music from retailers with a more discerning taste than Tower" (RIP). This strikes me as a fair description of what you and JP do (well).
I will repeat this very clearly so you can understand it. I believe that Davis' post Bitches electric era music stinks to high heaven. It's for that reason that it never attained deep critical consensus or large popular following. I think Crouch was essentially saying the same thing in the video. So on that point he and I agree. I will ignore you're geographic demagoguery and misguided condescension because I know this ain't that serious.
I think Davis had a chart hit in 1985, with Time After Time. I can't find any chart info on it, but I heard it on the radio a lot. Might have been his only song that got regular radio play in his life time.
You keep trying to move the goalposts - before it was that Electric Miles was not very influential "beyond Pat Metheny's house".
Now it's "deep roots in our popular culture" and "large popular following".
Which is it?
You hate Miles' electric material. I get it. Nobody's forcing you to like it. But your assertions of its unimportance are demonstrably bullshit. It has influenced plenty of music. As jazz fusion LPs go, they sold remarkably well. People of all ages and walks of life have celebrated and are returning to this period; it's been reissued and boxed up just like anything that's moderately important in the niche world of jazz music.
Crouch is wrong, and so are you.
No hate or anything. The geographical demagoguery is all jokes.
You keep trying to move the goalposts - before it was that Electric Miles was not very influential "beyond Pat Metheny's house".
Now it's "deep roots in our popular culture" and "large popular following".
Which is it?
You hate Miles' electric material. I get it. Nobody's forcing you to like it. But your assertions of its unimportance are demonstrably bullshit. It has influenced plenty of music. As jazz fusion LPs go, they sold remarkably well. People of all ages and walks of life have celebrated and are returning to this period; it's been reissued and boxed up just like anything that's moderately important in the niche world of jazz music.
Crouch is wrong, and so are you.
No hate or anything. The geographical demagoguery is all jokes.
No, JP, I have been incredibly specific about which albums I am talking about and they relative artistic importance. I like BB and think his first electric record, In a Silent Way, is brilliant. Both of those records pretty much laid out the basic outlines of fusion for years to come while supplying much of the bench for the most successful fusion bands. After BB, Miles' work became more obtuse and unlistenable. Most of his old band mates eclipsed him artistically and financially. This was not hard to do when Miles was producing shite like Agartha. BTW do you even like any of this stuff? I get the sense that your defending it more as a reflex than anything else.
Now that we have cleared that up, let's move on to something equally heinous. Shall we discuss Queen Latifah's reggae output?
BTW I'm glad we didn't have get into your flaky ass Berkeley childhood.
You keep trying to move the goalposts - before it was that Electric Miles was not very influential "beyond Pat Metheny's house".
Now it's "deep roots in our popular culture" and "large popular following".
Which is it?
You hate Miles' electric material. I get it. Nobody's forcing you to like it. But your assertions of its unimportance are demonstrably bullshit. It has influenced plenty of music. As jazz fusion LPs go, they sold remarkably well. People of all ages and walks of life have celebrated and are returning to this period; it's been reissued and boxed up just like anything that's moderately important in the niche world of jazz music.
Crouch is wrong, and so are you.
No hate or anything. The geographical demagoguery is all jokes.
No, JP, I have been incredibly specific about which albums I am talking about and their relative artistic importance. I like BB and think his first electric record, In a Silent Way, is brilliant. Both of those records pretty much laid out the basic outlines of fusion for years to come while supplying much of the bench for the most successful fusion bands. After BB, Miles' work became more obtuse and unlistenable. Most of his old band mates eclipsed him artistically and financially. This was not hard to do when Miles was producing shite like Agartha. BTW do you even like any of this stuff? I get the sense that your defending it more as a reflex than anything else.
Now that we have cleared that up, let's move on to something equally heinous. Shall we discuss Queen Latifah's reggae output?
BTW I'm glad we didn't have get into your flaky ass Berkeley childhood.
a) it sold well
and/or
b) it was reviewed well upon release
o rly?
Crouch's point is not whether the music is good or not. That is an entirely subjective issue. Crouch is getting at whether the music is of lasting import. A whole other ball of wax.
Comments
This could well be true.
Which is why I very specifically wrote "post Bitches Brew". I was gonna bring up Weather Report, MO and RTF as examples of bands that literally came directly from that record who were very successful commercially if not critically. It's important to note that Bitches Brew was also both critically (the only jazz record in Rolling Stones top 100 1967-1987, for example) and commercially very successful. There exists a strong consensus that this is/was great music. I am not sold on the argument that On The Corner et al merits the same status.
The fact that LIVE/EVIL moves at Good Music tells me that it has attained viability amongst a very specific subset of our society who frequent such stores. That does not translate to me that the music has attained wider importance. The bands that Dwaylijo (sorry if I mangled that) noted are all obscure acts that even someone who spends way too much time on music like me is not totally aware of (The Necks?) which only further illustrates my point about their marginal status within our culture. I hope I don't need to point out that just because I say the music sucks doesn't mean that anyone who likes it is stupid. It really is a personal thing at that level. But trying to say that the music commands significant cultural influence is quite another and I see no evidence to support that claim. I think Crouch got this right in the debate with Mtume.
Kind of Blue has sold 4 million as of 2008.
You sure seem to know a lot about who these people are. Care to elaborate?
A cursory google search reveals that BB was certified platinum in 2003.
Head Hunters was the first jazz record to be certified gold by the RIAA. Not sure what that really means though - surely a jazz record had sold this well prior to Head Hunters, it was just tougher to measure overall sales?
It seems odd that Kind Of Blue would've been able to make up several million copies since 1973, although I guess that title has never really gone out of print.
I think it is. A cursory Internet search tells me that BB only went platinum in 2003, while Kind of Blue has since gone 4x platinum.
From everything I've ever read about Clive Davis (which is a fair bit), it's unlikely he would have been thinking in such brazen, money-oriented terms back then. Clive's myth is/was very much dependent upon him being seen as "the artist's friend", and Columbia as an artist-driven label. More plausible would be that he'd seen Miles hit big with a rock/crossover audience with Bitches Brew and had tried to persuade him to pursue a more commercial direction.
So Crouch is misquoting?
I will not. You're talking out of your ass, even after I stated that people buying this stuff are far from the typical soulstruttin' type of record collectors I'm sure you envision.
There's really no "type" of person that shops here.
Jonny's point is correct. Right now the people in my store range from ages 19-65 and are buying all different kinds of music - what 'subset' are they part of?
Please don't say 'people who buy records'.
Haha, no offense taken. My name's been spelled way worse than that before!
I hate to ask, but is this just because you don't pay attention to newer jazz releases? If you look at a guy like John Scofield - who played on a few of the later Miles Davis releases - he sells a pretty good number of records (for a jazz guy), and he can sell out venues in most places that have a big enough jazz community. Medeski, Martin and Wood sell a gang of records. The Necks are relatively well-known in Europe and Australia (from what I hear). Dave Douglas does quite well for himself, too, even though he's played on releases with John Zorn of all people.
Of course they don't enjoy as high a profile as someone like Miles Davis would have in the pre-Bitches Brew era, but few jazz musicians do unless they happen to be married to Lyle Lovett or Ravi Shankar's daughter.
Perhaps you have cracked the code and unlike every other boutique record store in this country you serve a similar demographic as Walmart or the local drugstore and not one made up largely of music nuts. I suspect not but congratulations if you have. You claim that you see electric Miles in lots of black people's record collections. That's not been my experience. No big deal. We disagree as to the relative cultural merits of Post Bitches Brew Miles Davis that happens. Whatever the case, I am most assuredly not talking out of my ass.
Yeah yeah I know that utoob is the Laswell mix. OG mix wasn't there, but it's pumping here. Deal.
YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAOOOOW on the one
Have a nice weekend y'all.
He might be. I'm not certain precisely what it is he's quoting from, though. I mean, I could imagine Clive Davis saying to Miles or someone, "We need a hit", or "It'd be great to get another hit". But telling an artist they need to be making more money for the label sounds a little out of character for Clive around that time. In the early 70s, the bean-counters hadn't yet taken over, and there was still the sense at the majors that they were dealing with Art and Artists. If you'd just had the biggest hit of your career, as Miles had with Bitches Brew, there might be people at the label urging you to do more of the same, but anything more aggressive than that would be a little out of step with the prevailing mood.
Take that educated northwesterner shit somewhere else holmes. You're getting schooled and you don't even know the bell rang. You wear momjeans and think borders is a superior establishment to barnes & noble. You must deal.
Are you seriously trying to argue the unimportance of electric-period Miles Davis because it doesn't sell to Walmart shoppers?
[crossthreadpolination alert]
Really?
Crouch' s argument that fusion sucked because it petered out, didn't go anywhere, is bunk. All musical styles follow a lifeline that often is inexorably linked to the collective of musicians that birthed then nurtured them.
@JP I am saying that you run a boutique and like all boutiques it tends to serve a range of people with a very specific interest in something (quality music). Thus people shopping at your store and buying electric Miles does not make me reconsider whether or not his music from that time period has deep roots in our popular culture. Perhaps for you that does. I really don't need to fight with you about it. We can agree to disagree.
Horse, in fact I was saying what you didn't want me to say, only would add "people who like to buy music from retailers with a more discerning taste than Tower" (RIP). This strikes me as a fair description of what you and JP do (well).
I will repeat this very clearly so you can understand it. I believe that Davis' post Bitches electric era music stinks to high heaven. It's for that reason that it never attained deep critical consensus or large popular following. I think Crouch was essentially saying the same thing in the video. So on that point he and I agree. I will ignore you're geographic demagoguery and misguided condescension because I know this ain't that serious.
Now it's "deep roots in our popular culture" and "large popular following".
Which is it?
You hate Miles' electric material. I get it. Nobody's forcing you to like it. But your assertions of its unimportance are demonstrably bullshit. It has influenced plenty of music. As jazz fusion LPs go, they sold remarkably well. People of all ages and walks of life have celebrated and are returning to this period; it's been reissued and boxed up just like anything that's moderately important in the niche world of jazz music.
Crouch is wrong, and so are you.
No hate or anything. The geographical demagoguery is all jokes.
a) it sold well
and/or
b) it was reviewed well upon release
o rly?
No, JP, I have been incredibly specific about which albums I am talking about and they relative artistic importance. I like BB and think his first electric record, In a Silent Way, is brilliant. Both of those records pretty much laid out the basic outlines of fusion for years to come while supplying much of the bench for the most successful fusion bands. After BB, Miles' work became more obtuse and unlistenable. Most of his old band mates eclipsed him artistically and financially. This was not hard to do when Miles was producing shite like Agartha. BTW do you even like any of this stuff? I get the sense that your defending it more as a reflex than anything else.
Now that we have cleared that up, let's move on to something equally heinous. Shall we discuss Queen Latifah's reggae output?
BTW I'm glad we didn't have get into your flaky ass Berkeley childhood.
A young musical genius expands and defines a deeply artistic and non-commercial segment of the musical genre "Jazz".
He is embraced by a different generation / demographic of more mainstream listeners that carries him through the 60's and into the 70's.
In an attempt to sell records / make $$$ / reach a new audience / etc. this genius covers crappy pop songs of the day.
And people are debating which of these three periods is better and/or more influential.
Do I understand this correctly??
Crouch's point is not whether the music is good or not. That is an entirely subjective issue. Crouch is getting at whether the music is of lasting import. A whole other ball of wax.