Jazz Heads: What The Hell Did I Find?
Rockadelic
Out Digging 13,993 Posts
Home made ultra-thick gatefold cover wrapped in black construction paper and has two paste-ons. Artist is Paul Collins on piano w/Dave Elliott on bass and Dick Atkinson on drums. They do two Miles Davis cuts (Milestones & Nardis), Thelonious's "Blue Monk" and "Israel" by John Carisi. Disc is an acetate and this may be a one of a kind item?? I'd appreciate any info on the artist or recordings that were done at Hertz Studios.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
Comments
Does it say where they were based?
Jazz heads tend not to get excited about things like this, but the modern repertoire is a plus (John Carisi has a bit of cred as a compser as well).
I doubt it would do serious damage on ebay, but if the performances are good and you post sound clips it might do OK.
EDIT: I just read the liners - the disparaging remarks about the 'inept' rhythm section don't help much.
LOL...the liners were written by the drummer so I assume he's taking a good natured shot at himself.
I know that the unknown artist / LP does not excite Jazz dudes like it does other genre collectors.
I would say these takes are mediocre to good but I'm no jazz head, so who knows, they may suck as bad as the liners describe.
Hey Crink,
My guess would be that jazz heads are probably older, more mature, and more discerning than their younger counterparts who collect from other, more popular genres; however, I could be wrong.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
you are
Mainstream / Bop Jazz fans are primarily interested in known artists - an artist who plays as good as Bill Evans but is totally unknown is of very little interest to them
in this regard they are similar to crusty Beatles fans, they'd rather just keep buying minor variations of the same record again & again than listen to something new
Yeah, unlike "real heads," who would rather buy inept cover versions of the same songs again and again rather than listen to something new ;)
I think it's both, and one feeds the other. Maybe if there was an underground scene of top flight jazz dudes who only made 100 copy private press records and bounced, then the jazz collecting scene would be different. But the fact is there isn't a deep well of unknown greats who recorded obscure records, in fact I can't think of any.
I think the main reason these records don't garner much interest is because they are pretty much all second rate, not because jazz collectors are too crusty to give a damn.
In rock, folk, soul etc there is a place for crudely recorded and played material, but it doesn't really work for jazz, IMO.
the people that collect that stuff are pretty different than the DEEP GROOVE RVG EAR crowd tho
Agreed.....certainly somewhere there is a recording of a dude and his 12 piece drum set falling down a long flight of stairs that Free Jazz dudes would flip over.
Yeah, I'm referring only to straight ahead jazz. In fact some of the best dashiki/free/avant records are privates.
I think you have a point here. Jazz's golden age from the crustys' point of view was over by the mid-late 60s. It seems to me that before fusion took over the main vehicle for self promotion was being a sideman in an established (and recording) band rather than privately recording your own work. Everyone from Parker through to Miles and Coltrane cut their teeth that way. With a few exceptions aside like Sun Ra, I would guess that mainly "groups" only (Ie rock music) cut demo recordings from a position of total obscurity. If I'm wrong let me know with some examples please , I'm curious. Come the 70s you get the fusion and funk "groups" and a mushrooming of private label recordings but by then the crusty's interest in contemporary jazz flavoured music had waned ......
When was this done?
J.R. Monterose comes close, though he has a Blue Note record (one of the few white dudes who does).
He has a private press Lp, 'In Action' that's pretty good, and his Jaro Lp is a masterpiece, though that's not exactly private. He played high profile gigs with Mingus and others, but seemed to prefer playing in small towns with lesser known sidemen.
Really, Sun Ra is the only example of a genuine jazz outsider from the 50's - mid 60's I can think of.
A straight ahead private press guy criminally overlooked would be Johnny Shacklett.
A straight a head guy who is not "a giant" and is on a major label, who crusty dudes pay money for is Lee Gagnon. I think there might be other non-US players that fall in this category.
The question is:
Is jazz more merit based than popular styles?
Are the best musicians and performances guaranteed acceptance?
Are the 2nd best left by the wayside?
If they are does that mean that Brubeck is better than Evans?
Opinions?
No, as far as I can tell it's almost strictly beat diggers buying his records.
Back in the mid 90's I was mostly a jazz dealer and his records weren't sweated at all.
There's a female vocalist market that is parallel, but separate from the jazz market, it probably sells there also.
Serious?
Loads of 'em. I've gigged with plenty of players who were as good as, if not better, than dudes who had deals or "Names". But for whatever reason, opportunity never came knocking or was turned away at the door by the wife who didn't want her man on the road b/w they prefer the regular income of being a post-man / tax inspector etc.
Early on I used to ask them why they weren't better known after being blown away by what I'd heard, but the answer seems to be that:
There are only so many seats on the "Jazz for a living" bus and besides the talent, you have to have the business skills, social networking / bullshitting skills and the willpower to put your music above family and income.
But yeah, the dudes were just as good as the guys making money now.
And I'm looking for names, but there are none, 'cause those unkown unknowns weren't that good (Great).
My guess(and it's just a guess) is that there are very talented players who play(ed) Coltrane/Miles style jazz from 1970 forward that just never got the recognition/fame because jazz heads see them as "modern" players who could not possibly be as good as the "masters"
Kinda like how hard core 50's Rockabilly headz view the Stray Cats.
So the talent could very well be out there with no true audience to appreciate it?
Here you go. You answered your own question.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stray-Cats-Sexy-17-7-Single-Rockabilly-1983-Rare-NR-/180545774652?pt=Music_on_Vinyl
Could there be a less sought-after genre/format combo?
I love jazz 45's. Apparently Jazzman Gerald does as well. Here is his jazz 45 only set from Gilles Peterson's show:
Jazzman mix
that's total bs.
plenty of supremely talented jazzers led chaotic, haphazard lives, were unlucky, etc...and basically stayed local. i have heard stories about jazzers who were afraid to leave their hometown for too long for fear they wouldn;t be able to get any heroin or whatever else...some of these "unknown greats" get discovered late in life or after they die.
in any event not everyone measures "success" by how rich or famous a person is.
to me, lenny breau is the greatest guitar player who ever did it (he was murdered in the early 80's over drugs) but thanks to a handful of dedicated fans, he is starting to get the recognition he deserves.
I think in general, GREATS are great at not only innovating and composing, but also putting a band together and getting paid.
Not only do they dedicate their lives to music, but also taking care of business.
The Jimmy Scott's bio (recommended) details the life of a guy who had the talent but not the band leading/business skills. [BUT he is recognized by jazz hounds and his records fetch dollars.]
Billy Strayhorn was as talented as your list, but always in the shadow. [He did OK as Ellington's Right Hand Man, never broke out.]
I am sure there are guys who did not want to do NYC or LA, did not want to do late nights in smokey clubs, who could have been up there. Maybe not with your list, but with the next tier, who made records for Blue Note, Riverside, Prestige, Fantasy...