I should have capitalized Greats. I'm talking Miles, Monk, Coltrane, Ellington, Mingus, etc. You just don't give up that kind of talent for a woman and a day job. You met Mingus the mailman? Trane the tax collector?
And I'm looking for names, but there are none, 'cause those unkown unknowns weren't that good (Great).
is this really unique to jazz though?
do people REALLY believe that the heavily-sweated private press funk 45s/LPs are better than James Brown or the Meters?
I should have capitalized Greats. I'm talking Miles, Monk, Coltrane, Ellington, Mingus, etc. You just don't give up that kind of talent for a woman and a day job. You met Mingus the mailman? Trane the tax collector?
And I'm looking for names, but there are none, 'cause those unkown unknowns weren't that good (Great).
is this really unique to jazz though?
do people REALLY believe that the heavily-sweated private press funk 45s/LPs are better than James Brown or the Meters?
I take the bait. Yes. Some obscure funk records are better than James Brown and the Meters.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
Reynaldo said:
You just don't give up that kind of talent for a woman and a day job.
Perhaps not. But it's often the case that you give up trying to make a living from jazz in favour of steady money in the shape of pop/rock/MOR sessions and West End/Broadway musicals. In the post-rock & roll era, that's certainly where a lot of immensely talented British jazzers ended up.
I also collect Jazz 45s, it amazes me how cheap some of them can be copped for, even some p/s EPs can be steals IMO. The fact that a lot of them are undervalued is good for buying but crap as far as resale potential goes....
I agree it it is weird how Jazz 45s on Blue Note etc aren't coveted as much as LPs. I guess essentially Jazz isn't a 45 based format in the same way that things like rockabilly, garage, soul & funk are.
I agree it it is weird how Jazz 45s on Blue Note etc aren't coveted as much as LPs.
Aren't they frequently shortened edits?
yes, either shortened or split into Part 1/Part 2. This is unattractive to Jazz LP dudes who would rather have the full 25 minute uninterrupted trombone solo or what have you... Just seems strange how there doesn't seem to be a separate healthy scene of ADD Jazz collectors who are really gunning for the format.
I had a nice little selection of Blue Note jukebox hard cover eps.
I had no trouble selling them, some for the straight ahead guys some for the souljazz guys.
No trouble selling, but they were priced between $6-15.
I've also had good luck selling hard cover eps with David Stone Martin art work or just the right ep to the right guy. Again, priced way below the lps or what a cool 45 in any other genre would bring.
You met Mingus the mailman? Trane the tax collector? And I'm looking for names, but there are none, 'cause those unknown unknowns weren't that good (Great).
that's total bs.
plenty of supremely talented jazzers led chaotic, haphazard lives, were unlucky, etc...and basically stayed local. i have heard stories about jazzers who were afraid to leave their hometown for too long for fear they wouldn;t be able to get any heroin or whatever else...some of these "unknown greats" get discovered late in life or after they die.
in any event not everyone measures "success" by how rich or famous a person is.
to me, lenny breau is the greatest guitar player who ever did it (he was murdered in the early 80's over drugs) but thanks to a handful of dedicated fans, he is starting to get the recognition he deserves.
You named one guy with with a major label debut LP and major label appearances. That's known/pro--not some my postman is equal to Ellington BS.
yeah, Lenny Breau isn't unknown - that one major label LP of his (rca?) that turns up pretty often usually looks like it was well-played. Cool album, kind of folky, but not a dude with a day job.
yeah, Lenny Breau isn't unknown - that one major label LP of his (rca?) that turns up pretty often usually looks like it was well-played. Cool album, kind of folky, but not a dude with a day job.
Really.
Major lol at the people holding out Lenny Breau, Billy Strayhorn and Jimmy Scott as 'unknowns'.
The fact is that talented people are a dime a dozen. Talent alone does not make you great, and people who don't commit their whole lives to it seldom, if ever, achieve greatness. Coltrane, as evidenced by his army-era recordings, was just a competent player as a young man - it took him years of hard work and complete dedication to become great.
You've gigged with plenty of players who are as good as Coltrane, Monk, Rollins and Davis?
I am sure these cats don't go around introducing themselves as such, but to clarify:
I've heard a whole bunch of stuff by Coltrane, Monk, Rollins and Davis and I like the way these unknown guys played just as much. They are playing f*cking good music. They might not be innovators of the magnitude of those names, but sure, as far as I am concerned, they can play at that level. I guess you get to be an innovator when you are making a good living off your music and can kick ideas around and have them recorded and promoted to the general public.
Some were at music college, most of them have recorded with people or as bands, but outside of the city they are from, they are relatively unknown. They are not doing it for a living, but I learned a lot from them. Surely in somewhere like NYC there are regular dudes who have these chops but no opportunity/inclination to try and pay the rent with them? I mean, you have the talent, you have the records, you have the time to practice - after a while, you are going to get the hang of at least the mechanics of playing at that level.
Horseleech said:
Care to tell us who some of them are?
I would, but you won't have heard of them ;) Although Mike Walker has gone on to bigger things and is "Doing it for a living" now. (http://www.mike-walker.co.uk/press/). I'd say Mike is The Best Guitar Player I've Ever Heard???. Sue me if I am wrong.
You just don't give up that kind of talent for a woman and a day job.
Perhaps not. But it's often the case that you give up trying to make a living from jazz in favour of steady money in the shape of pop/rock/MOR sessions and West End/Broadway musicals. In the post-rock & roll era, that's certainly where a lot of immensely talented British jazzers ended up.
Sure. That's what I was saying about only so many seats on the bus. It's apparently a real mafia right-of-passage to get a well-paying regular gig with the BBC session crew. West End - that's where a couple of my mentors are now. And I know I would shrivel up and die reading tadpoles for "Springtime for H1tler" and dem. Plus I am kidding myself if I ever thought I'd get to read music to that level. It would be nice, but until they do 30 hour days, I can't see where the hours of practice are going to come from anymore.
Major lol at the people holding out Lenny Breau, Billy Strayhorn and Jimmy Scott as 'unknowns'.
I mentioned Strayhorn and Scott. Never did I say they were unknowns.
I did say that Johnny Shacklett was an unknown.
I believe that he was a great innovator and a GIANT of a talent.
If he had moved to NYC and worked hard at his career I think he would be considered one of the greatest jazz guitarist of all time.
Instead he decided to quietly work in education.
In the process he influenced many professional players through his theory classes.
Today his one recording is of little value despite its great rarity and music.
I agree with you 100% that since he did not move to NYC and become a major mover in an emerging style he will never be one of the GIANT GREATS like Coltrane or Ellington. (I will also concede that he never showed the compositional talent of Coltrane or Ellington.)
Yeah, why is it that jazz dudes don't get all hot and bothered about odd one-off things? I mean, it can be hard to squeeze $30 out of something genuinely cool but little known, and meanwhile you've got some fairly tepid records being sweated because the one good track was comped or whatever.
Comments
is this really unique to jazz though?
do people REALLY believe that the heavily-sweated private press funk 45s/LPs are better than James Brown or the Meters?
I take the bait. Yes. Some obscure funk records are better than James Brown and the Meters.
See:
http://www.soulstrut.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/66069/
Perhaps not. But it's often the case that you give up trying to make a living from jazz in favour of steady money in the shape of pop/rock/MOR sessions and West End/Broadway musicals. In the post-rock & roll era, that's certainly where a lot of immensely talented British jazzers ended up.
I agree it it is weird how Jazz 45s on Blue Note etc aren't coveted as much as LPs. I guess essentially Jazz isn't a 45 based format in the same way that things like rockabilly, garage, soul & funk are.
Aren't they frequently shortened edits?
Instant classic.
A++, would LOL at this thread again.
I had no trouble selling them, some for the straight ahead guys some for the souljazz guys.
No trouble selling, but they were priced between $6-15.
I've also had good luck selling hard cover eps with David Stone Martin art work or just the right ep to the right guy. Again, priced way below the lps or what a cool 45 in any other genre would bring.
You've gigged with plenty of players who are as good as Coltrane, Monk, Rollins and Davis?
Care to tell us who some of them are?
Really.
Major lol at the people holding out Lenny Breau, Billy Strayhorn and Jimmy Scott as 'unknowns'.
The fact is that talented people are a dime a dozen. Talent alone does not make you great, and people who don't commit their whole lives to it seldom, if ever, achieve greatness. Coltrane, as evidenced by his army-era recordings, was just a competent player as a young man - it took him years of hard work and complete dedication to become great.
I am sure these cats don't go around introducing themselves as such, but to clarify:
I've heard a whole bunch of stuff by Coltrane, Monk, Rollins and Davis and I like the way these unknown guys played just as much. They are playing f*cking good music. They might not be innovators of the magnitude of those names, but sure, as far as I am concerned, they can play at that level. I guess you get to be an innovator when you are making a good living off your music and can kick ideas around and have them recorded and promoted to the general public.
Some were at music college, most of them have recorded with people or as bands, but outside of the city they are from, they are relatively unknown. They are not doing it for a living, but I learned a lot from them. Surely in somewhere like NYC there are regular dudes who have these chops but no opportunity/inclination to try and pay the rent with them? I mean, you have the talent, you have the records, you have the time to practice - after a while, you are going to get the hang of at least the mechanics of playing at that level.
I would, but you won't have heard of them ;) Although Mike Walker has gone on to bigger things and is "Doing it for a living" now. (http://www.mike-walker.co.uk/press/). I'd say Mike is The Best Guitar Player I've Ever Heard???. Sue me if I am wrong.
Sure. That's what I was saying about only so many seats on the bus. It's apparently a real mafia right-of-passage to get a well-paying regular gig with the BBC session crew. West End - that's where a couple of my mentors are now. And I know I would shrivel up and die reading tadpoles for "Springtime for H1tler" and dem. Plus I am kidding myself if I ever thought I'd get to read music to that level. It would be nice, but until they do 30 hour days, I can't see where the hours of practice are going to come from anymore.
I mentioned Strayhorn and Scott. Never did I say they were unknowns.
I did say that Johnny Shacklett was an unknown.
I believe that he was a great innovator and a GIANT of a talent.
If he had moved to NYC and worked hard at his career I think he would be considered one of the greatest jazz guitarist of all time.
Instead he decided to quietly work in education.
In the process he influenced many professional players through his theory classes.
Today his one recording is of little value despite its great rarity and music.
I agree with you 100% that since he did not move to NYC and become a major mover in an emerging style he will never be one of the GIANT GREATS like Coltrane or Ellington. (I will also concede that he never showed the compositional talent of Coltrane or Ellington.)