really?
maybe i am in the minority but to me SIH is an album that took me a year or so to come around to liking, but since then I rate very highly. what exactly is it that people hate about this album?
as for TLM, it is definitely obvious that the group was growing apart, and didnt have the same spark they had on the first 3 albums, but i appreciate the fact that they were trying out different sounds and approaches. It may not live up to Low End Theory, but few albums in my private mind garden do. I often find myself rarely listening to my favoutite albums these days, as I have either listened to them too much, or I start over analysing them, for this fact alone I appreciate albums like TLM.
It all went sour after Midnight Marauders for me. Low End Theory being their artistic peak.
TLM sounds like the corpse of the band swinging lifelessly from the gallows. JD loved him some atmospheric ish so this was a perfect setting for him but he really seems to have sucked out whatever life Phiffe and Q put into this.
Nothing is memorable other than (IIRC, because this bit is only vaguely memorable) Q talmbout "Rollin' in the snow after the show" which I took as a post-breakup mailed-in line/track about the inevitable arguments that go hand-in-hand with the old marching powder.
I just don't think Dilla, even as the produceur du jour, could add value to their sound. They needed to go back to whatever they were doing on the first three - at least they sounded like they were having fun on those jawns.
I'm sure when I first heard this on Giles Peterson's show late one night, and he mentioned "produced by Jay Dee", I thought that's the dude who f*cked up Tribe's sound. :red:
I also didn't pick up Love Movement when it came out after the disappointment of BR&L. A couple of years or so after Beats came out though I went back to it and enjoyed it a lot more despite it being an obvious step down. Taken on its own merits it worked fine for an album of that period. Buoyed by this discovery I picked up Love Movement and it did absolutely nothing for me. I actually revisited it again around a year ago and still found the whole thing underwhelming and, for want of a better description, boring.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
Having consistently defended both BR&L and The Love Movement in the face of what has often been excessively harsh criticism, I dug out the latter album this morning and listened to it for the first time in about three years after skimming the first page of this thread yesterday. I listened to it end-to-end and, apart from The Booty, I didn't feel the urge to skip any of the tracks.
I think it's pretty much a certainty that anyone who outright hated it then is probably going to feel the same way about it now, although its strengths have proved enduring enough for me to hang onto it for a while longer yet. It's not a great album, but it's listenable. Certainly, it isn't the stinker that many insisted it was at the time. From a lyrical p/o/v, the politest thing that can be said about it is that it's lacklustre. There are a few inspired moments here and there, and some brief flashes of Tribe's earlier brilliance but, on the whole, the qualities that characterised the first three albums - wit, originality, sparky verbal interplay - are pretty much absent. A few phrases that sprung to mind while I listened to it over breakfast were "phoned-in", "treading water" and "autopilot". But, for me, what made TLM listenable at the time and makes it listenable now is the production, which I still maintain is adventurous enough to make it worth enduring the below-par turns from Tip and Phife. Not to anything like the same extent that, say, Primo's work on Livin' Proof utterly overwhelms Lil Dap and Malachi's shortcomings, you understand, but more than enough to counter the prevailing wisdom that the entire enterprise is/was a dead loss from beak to arsehole.
Something I hadn't really given much thought to before listening to it today was the extent to which Ali and Tip took a backseat on this record and gave Dilla the reins. Nominally, it's an Ummah production, but Dilla's dabs are clearly on so much of it that it does seem as if he had the board to himself, and that the Ummah credit was simply for contractual reasons and/or the sake of appearances. The other thing that strikes me about the production is how well it's dated relative to much of what came out at the same time - very little of it is tied to those mid-to-late 90s "crunchy samples/filtered basslines" production values. In spite of the majority of listeners and critics dumping on it at the time, enough of what Dilla did on TLM has since been appropriated elsewhere in hip-hop, modern r&b and in other musical styles broadly rooted in a hip-hop ethos, that it has the effect of making TLM sound a good deal fresher than you might expect. I've noticed a few poasters concede that it sounds better than they remember, and for my part, I used to defend the album against the "Dilla ruined Tribe" crowd on the basis that, production-wise, he was so far ahead of the curve that it would take people years to realise how far. With that, I'm going to use this window of opportunity, however narrow, to play the "VINDICATED!" card I have tucked away in my sock for moments just such as this.
All that aside, and even as someone who always liked the album, I can't in all honesty sit here and try to make a case for its position within the pantheon of Tribe albums to be re-evaluated. Seen purely as a Tribe album, it's without doubt their weakest, and where it sits relative to its predecessors is where it should sit. If I had to sum it up in one phrase, I'd say it's a brave failure. On their final two albums, Tribe tried to broaden their musical range, and even though the cries of "sellout" came thick and fast, I didn't buy it then and I don't now. Much like Stakes Is High was to De La, TLM was the sound of a group attempting to redefine their place within hip-hop and acknowledge changing trends without simply buying into them wholesale, and while still staying true to their core values. Obviously, in the most basic commercial and critical terms, it was unsuccessful but (and if saying this makes me a Dilla stan, then so be it) it's redeemed by Dilla's contribution. There'll never be a time where it's declared "an overlooked classic", but in spite of its faults, it's had a degree of influence that many comparable albums could never hope to match, and that's enough to justify its existence.
In spite of the majority of listeners and critics dumping on it at the time, enough of what Dilla did on TLM has since been appropriated elsewhere in hip-hop, modern r&b and in other musical styles broadly rooted in a hip-hop ethos, that it has the effect of making TLM sound a good deal fresher than you might expect.
I find it difficult to give props to bad music for having spawned further bad music.
I never really hated BRM at all. I lump it with Stakes is High, because they're both kinda post-the-groups-bes-output, but i still enjoy it.
Hey,
I must say that I totally disagree with this comparison. "Stakes is High" is a solid album whereas "Beats, Rhymes, and Life" is not. The production alone on "Stakes is High" sons the shit out of "Beats, Rhymes, and Life," not to mention the obvious difference in lyrical quality. I see the two LPs as apples and oranges.
It all went sour after Midnight Marauders for me.
I just don't think Dilla, even as the produceur du jour, could add value to their sound. They needed to go back to whatever they were doing on the first three - at least they sounded like they were having fun on those jawns.
yeah i agree on this as well, last tribe album i bought was BR&L and was even a bit disappointed with that, imo Midnight Marauders was the last dope tribe album.
Comments
I smelled that as well.......
"This is the Lone Ranger......." Money Maker
I am saying.
I invited my Dilla stans to make a case in the first poast and, so far, nobody has really stepped up.
Sidenote: what happened between Tribe and Consequence in between the two final albums? He's not even on TLM, is he?
I think he's on adlibs and shit.
Drewn stepped up.
really?
maybe i am in the minority but to me SIH is an album that took me a year or so to come around to liking, but since then I rate very highly. what exactly is it that people hate about this album?
as for TLM, it is definitely obvious that the group was growing apart, and didnt have the same spark they had on the first 3 albums, but i appreciate the fact that they were trying out different sounds and approaches. It may not live up to Low End Theory, but few albums in my private mind garden do. I often find myself rarely listening to my favoutite albums these days, as I have either listened to them too much, or I start over analysing them, for this fact alone I appreciate albums like TLM.
However, I do like that album--and I would place it far ahead of their debut on my list of favorite De La albums.
TLM sounds like the corpse of the band swinging lifelessly from the gallows. JD loved him some atmospheric ish so this was a perfect setting for him but he really seems to have sucked out whatever life Phiffe and Q put into this.
Nothing is memorable other than (IIRC, because this bit is only vaguely memorable) Q talmbout "Rollin' in the snow after the show" which I took as a post-breakup mailed-in line/track about the inevitable arguments that go hand-in-hand with the old marching powder.
I just don't think Dilla, even as the produceur du jour, could add value to their sound. They needed to go back to whatever they were doing on the first three - at least they sounded like they were having fun on those jawns.
I'm sure when I first heard this on Giles Peterson's show late one night, and he mentioned "produced by Jay Dee", I thought that's the dude who f*cked up Tribe's sound. :red:
I think it's pretty much a certainty that anyone who outright hated it then is probably going to feel the same way about it now, although its strengths have proved enduring enough for me to hang onto it for a while longer yet. It's not a great album, but it's listenable. Certainly, it isn't the stinker that many insisted it was at the time. From a lyrical p/o/v, the politest thing that can be said about it is that it's lacklustre. There are a few inspired moments here and there, and some brief flashes of Tribe's earlier brilliance but, on the whole, the qualities that characterised the first three albums - wit, originality, sparky verbal interplay - are pretty much absent. A few phrases that sprung to mind while I listened to it over breakfast were "phoned-in", "treading water" and "autopilot". But, for me, what made TLM listenable at the time and makes it listenable now is the production, which I still maintain is adventurous enough to make it worth enduring the below-par turns from Tip and Phife. Not to anything like the same extent that, say, Primo's work on Livin' Proof utterly overwhelms Lil Dap and Malachi's shortcomings, you understand, but more than enough to counter the prevailing wisdom that the entire enterprise is/was a dead loss from beak to arsehole.
Something I hadn't really given much thought to before listening to it today was the extent to which Ali and Tip took a backseat on this record and gave Dilla the reins. Nominally, it's an Ummah production, but Dilla's dabs are clearly on so much of it that it does seem as if he had the board to himself, and that the Ummah credit was simply for contractual reasons and/or the sake of appearances. The other thing that strikes me about the production is how well it's dated relative to much of what came out at the same time - very little of it is tied to those mid-to-late 90s "crunchy samples/filtered basslines" production values. In spite of the majority of listeners and critics dumping on it at the time, enough of what Dilla did on TLM has since been appropriated elsewhere in hip-hop, modern r&b and in other musical styles broadly rooted in a hip-hop ethos, that it has the effect of making TLM sound a good deal fresher than you might expect. I've noticed a few poasters concede that it sounds better than they remember, and for my part, I used to defend the album against the "Dilla ruined Tribe" crowd on the basis that, production-wise, he was so far ahead of the curve that it would take people years to realise how far. With that, I'm going to use this window of opportunity, however narrow, to play the "VINDICATED!" card I have tucked away in my sock for moments just such as this.
All that aside, and even as someone who always liked the album, I can't in all honesty sit here and try to make a case for its position within the pantheon of Tribe albums to be re-evaluated. Seen purely as a Tribe album, it's without doubt their weakest, and where it sits relative to its predecessors is where it should sit. If I had to sum it up in one phrase, I'd say it's a brave failure. On their final two albums, Tribe tried to broaden their musical range, and even though the cries of "sellout" came thick and fast, I didn't buy it then and I don't now. Much like Stakes Is High was to De La, TLM was the sound of a group attempting to redefine their place within hip-hop and acknowledge changing trends without simply buying into them wholesale, and while still staying true to their core values. Obviously, in the most basic commercial and critical terms, it was unsuccessful but (and if saying this makes me a Dilla stan, then so be it) it's redeemed by Dilla's contribution. There'll never be a time where it's declared "an overlooked classic", but in spite of its faults, it's had a degree of influence that many comparable albums could never hope to match, and that's enough to justify its existence.
I find it difficult to give props to bad music for having spawned further bad music.
Yes indeed.
yeah i agree on this as well, last tribe album i bought was BR&L and was even a bit disappointed with that, imo Midnight Marauders was the last dope tribe album.