I didn't realize I'd start a geek out session with this thread but it is what it is. I'm with Stacks 100% (though my credentials don't include marching band, followed pops in the jazz drumming lineage since age 10, scholarship for percussion at school, 4 years in first chair).
The easiest way for me to state that the cut in question is a shuffle is the phrasing and backbeat. The fact of the matter is that the kick hits on 1 and 3 and the snare hits on 2 and 4. A big band chart might have written it in 6/8 but I doubt that shit was ever arranged for a big band. Whether or not the hats actually outline triplets or a goodass pocket swing is up for debate but it definitely isn't hitting every eighth note which might insuate a score in 6/8. The difference is in the cymbals.
Fact of the matter is that its a half-time shuffle and could be written down in 6/8, but the feel lies in a 4/4 shuffle.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Possum Tom said:
smoking_robot said:
Possum Tom said:
Big_Stacks said:
Possum Tom said:
ive got a quick way to fix this disagreement.
turn on your asr10 or mpc or whatever, set the time to 4/4 and try and recreate any of those drum patterns. it wont work.
if you double the tempo youre counting, youll get it.
Hey Tom,
Actually, it will work but I'd have to use the 16th note, triplet (shuffle) setting, seriously ;-) . It would be like programming a 90s type bounce-beat track like "Bucktown" (which is definitely in 4/4 time), but instead, programming the rhythm of The Temps joint.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
no man , the second you put it in triplets it becomes 6/8
you just said it yourself
There's triplets in 4/4 time sig's.
Peep game: http://www.freesheetmusic.net/chopin/2 Nocturnes, Op 27.pdf
The sheet music is in common time, which is 4/4. In the 6th measure, you can see the G#, F#, E line shows a "3" underneath, so you know its not 8th notes, but in fact splitting 1 quarter note into thirds.
Additionally, the left hand splits 2 quarter notes (or 2 beats of the masure) into 6ths. Its been a while since i really talked about music theory, but i believe its the same as saying the left plays 4 sets of triplets, but its easier to communicate this by writing them as 1/6ths.
Triplets and such are rhytmic notation that would not alter a time signature for a song.
for some reason the link has percentage symbols in it and i cant get this thing to stop deleting the percentage symbols in that link and creating spaces instead - so here's a screen grab:
he was talking about programming the whole song as triplets. thats the same thing as 6/8.
this is officially retarded. there's no agreeing to disagree... this isnt a matter of opinion.
Hey Tom,
You misunderstood what I said because you don't seem to understand time signatures. Anyway, I used the 1/16T (or triplet quantizing) on the ASR-10 to produce the bounce, or shuffle rhythm of the programmed beat. The ASR-10 was set to 4/4 time when I programmed it. The quantizing has nothing to do with the time signature, which is why you can play triplet notes in 4/4. This is where you're getting confused, and your thought there tells me that you don't know what you're talking about. For years, I played marching band snare drum and quadra-tom parts from sheet music, which was written in 4/4 time, that were chocked full of triplet notes (the marching band video that I posted conveys this fact as well). As anyone who has ever marched knows, most marching band music is written in 4/4 time! I know what the hell I'm talking about because I played drums, using sheet music, with organized bands (i.e., in orchestra and jazz band in addition to marching band) for years and years. Have you? I've counted and played more time signatures than I care to discuss. Think what you want, but there is science to music composition and timing, and I didn't get it from an ASR-10 quantize setting either. I played drums, reading music, from childhood, with real instruments. Not surprisingly, Minneap, who is a fellow drummer who too reads music and boasts impressive musical credentials, agrees with me. His following statement says it all:
"Fact of the matter is that its a half-time shuffle and could be written down in 6/8, but the feel lies in a 4/4 shuffle."
It's very telling that two experienced, formally-trained drummers are describing the rhythm using the same musical vernacular and rationale. This is the case because we both understand musical notation and time signatures which was required to play in formal band settings using sheet music. After all, typically, drummers provide the rhythmic foundation for the entire band!
If you're right, Tom, provide some explanation of your rationale for a 6/8 time signature, instead of the childish put-downs and baseless "I know I'm right" assertions. But you can't, because the counting scheme wouldn't work as I described in my previous post. Even if the sheet music of the song was written in 6/8 (which is unlikely), it would require an incredibly fast, awkward counting scheme (i.e., counting 6 beats per bar at that tempo would be uncomfortable). A 4-count scheme would be much more relaxed and natural to follow while reading the sheet and playing, given the feel and tempo of the song. In contrast to you, I provided a clear explanation of my rationale with examples, even programmed a similar shuffle beat as the track in question (per YOUR "challenge", saying it couldn't be done), sans the criticisms, like a mature adult. It would be insightful if you did the same. Then again, I have facts and experience on my side as opposed to faux-authoritative posturing and statements for impressing the onlookers.
I have facts and experience on my side as opposed to faux-authoritative posturing and statements for impressing the onlookers.
i'm not really interested in being soulstrut's in house know-it-all. any response would be a waste of time.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Hey Tom,
I'm not interested in being the resident know-it-all either. I just thought we were having a civil, healthy debate. Then, it devolved into name-calling and insults. Otherwise, I wouldn't have taken the tone I did in my previous post. It's all good though, since again, I've always loved a good debate.
I also remember hearing on one of those top 40s in the 70s classic soul radio stations that had a pre-recorded George Clinton soundbite where he said that "Knot Just Knee Deep" was inspired by some traditional polka tune in typical 3/4 waltz time. He figured that it would sound better as a common time disco era rhythm. As for the 6/8 vs. 12/8 debate: I have no damn clue how to recognize the special accent that separates both other than nuances in the beat. I just consider both labels as shuffle/tarantella style that has been adapted from blues and has in turn been used for soul ballads. As a side note, for some bizarre reason, Lee Morgan's "Gary's Notebook" (which is, "officially", in 12/8) has been playing the radio as well as those digital satellite broadcast stations that play when you're put on hold while calling a company. .
Flipping the time signature the other way, here's a 2008 mix of hip hop instrumentals i edited into triple time from their original 4/4 state.
Mostly they end up in 6/8, though some turn out more in 3/4. Usually I chopped out the snare on the 3rd and 7th quarter beats.
Comments
The easiest way for me to state that the cut in question is a shuffle is the phrasing and backbeat. The fact of the matter is that the kick hits on 1 and 3 and the snare hits on 2 and 4. A big band chart might have written it in 6/8 but I doubt that shit was ever arranged for a big band. Whether or not the hats actually outline triplets or a goodass pocket swing is up for debate but it definitely isn't hitting every eighth note which might insuate a score in 6/8. The difference is in the cymbals.
Fact of the matter is that its a half-time shuffle and could be written down in 6/8, but the feel lies in a 4/4 shuffle.
Hey Tom,
You misunderstood what I said because you don't seem to understand time signatures. Anyway, I used the 1/16T (or triplet quantizing) on the ASR-10 to produce the bounce, or shuffle rhythm of the programmed beat. The ASR-10 was set to 4/4 time when I programmed it. The quantizing has nothing to do with the time signature, which is why you can play triplet notes in 4/4. This is where you're getting confused, and your thought there tells me that you don't know what you're talking about. For years, I played marching band snare drum and quadra-tom parts from sheet music, which was written in 4/4 time, that were chocked full of triplet notes (the marching band video that I posted conveys this fact as well). As anyone who has ever marched knows, most marching band music is written in 4/4 time! I know what the hell I'm talking about because I played drums, using sheet music, with organized bands (i.e., in orchestra and jazz band in addition to marching band) for years and years. Have you? I've counted and played more time signatures than I care to discuss. Think what you want, but there is science to music composition and timing, and I didn't get it from an ASR-10 quantize setting either. I played drums, reading music, from childhood, with real instruments. Not surprisingly, Minneap, who is a fellow drummer who too reads music and boasts impressive musical credentials, agrees with me. His following statement says it all:
"Fact of the matter is that its a half-time shuffle and could be written down in 6/8, but the feel lies in a 4/4 shuffle."
It's very telling that two experienced, formally-trained drummers are describing the rhythm using the same musical vernacular and rationale. This is the case because we both understand musical notation and time signatures which was required to play in formal band settings using sheet music. After all, typically, drummers provide the rhythmic foundation for the entire band!
If you're right, Tom, provide some explanation of your rationale for a 6/8 time signature, instead of the childish put-downs and baseless "I know I'm right" assertions. But you can't, because the counting scheme wouldn't work as I described in my previous post. Even if the sheet music of the song was written in 6/8 (which is unlikely), it would require an incredibly fast, awkward counting scheme (i.e., counting 6 beats per bar at that tempo would be uncomfortable). A 4-count scheme would be much more relaxed and natural to follow while reading the sheet and playing, given the feel and tempo of the song. In contrast to you, I provided a clear explanation of my rationale with examples, even programmed a similar shuffle beat as the track in question (per YOUR "challenge", saying it couldn't be done), sans the criticisms, like a mature adult. It would be insightful if you did the same. Then again, I have facts and experience on my side as opposed to faux-authoritative posturing and statements for impressing the onlookers.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I'm not interested in being the resident know-it-all either. I just thought we were having a civil, healthy debate. Then, it devolved into name-calling and insults. Otherwise, I wouldn't have taken the tone I did in my previous post. It's all good though, since again, I've always loved a good debate.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I also remember hearing on one of those top 40s in the 70s classic soul radio stations that had a pre-recorded George Clinton soundbite where he said that "Knot Just Knee Deep" was inspired by some traditional polka tune in typical 3/4 waltz time. He figured that it would sound better as a common time disco era rhythm. As for the 6/8 vs. 12/8 debate: I have no damn clue how to recognize the special accent that separates both other than nuances in the beat. I just consider both labels as shuffle/tarantella style that has been adapted from blues and has in turn been used for soul ballads. As a side note, for some bizarre reason, Lee Morgan's "Gary's Notebook" (which is, "officially", in 12/8) has been playing the radio as well as those digital satellite broadcast stations that play when you're put on hold while calling a company. .
also, this is so much better than even the deepest of mobs....
Flipping the time signature the other way, here's a 2008 mix of hip hop instrumentals i edited into triple time from their original 4/4 state.
Mostly they end up in 6/8, though some turn out more in 3/4. Usually I chopped out the snare on the 3rd and 7th quarter beats.
3 4 6 8 Mix by Siskin