Flipping the time signature
minneap
541 Posts
Odd coincidence happened today. I was listening to Pill spit over "Kick in the Door" while on the bus to work and then popped into StarBucks and heard the version of "Put a Spell On You" that Primo sampled. Flipping it from 12/8 to 4/4 and changing where the downbeats are was pretty genius IMO. Got me thinking about how much I love this kind of sampling. Plaese to add on.
Comments
I'd never realized how dope that is -- I got the sample, obviously, but it never occurred to me that those syncopated hits were actually just downbeats of those bars of 3. Ill shit, altho I'm not sure I have anything else to contribute ... I guess "Blue Flowers" could qualify, though of course the rhythm of the string part is so ambiguous that it's not really a straight this-to-that signature flip.
Black Moon using the Cannonball Adderly "Eye Of The Cosmos" bassline for "Enta Da Stage" comes to mind
I guess it could be written in either but I thought that the phrasing and backbeat implied 12/8, 4 down beats in triplets instead of eighth notes. Could be wrong though.
Ahhhh, word - i was straight counting and when i started at the jump the phrases were resetting in a 6/8 to me, but that could also mean the intro is lead in.
i'll take a closer listen again and pay closer attention to the down beats and # of triplets.
this wasnt on some nitpicky dickhead shit, i was genuinely curious how you arrived at 12/8.
that track really does lend itself easily to 4/4 time though, if you count it out via the piano stabs instead of the 1/8th notes. still a nice flip imo
Hey,
Actually, the original sample is in 4/4 time, just played in a shuffle meter or pattern. The Esther Phillips flip is a great example of time signature switching, since the original is in 3/4 time.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Indeed.
Hey Tom,
Actually, you can play triplet notes in 4/4. We used to have them in our marching band drum parts all the time. By shuffle, I meant the pattern in which the notes are played. A shuffle (or swung note) rhythm can still be counted in 4s, such as in songs like "The Way You Do the Things You Do" by The Temptations.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
good thing you dont teach song writing over there
Hey Tom,
But 6/8 time is counted in 3s, not 4s. One, two, three, four, five, six...and so on would not produce the rhythm of the song I posted. That's not correct. All you need to do is count to it and you'll see. You'll find that you're 2 counts short before the end of two measures. You have to count two measures of 4/4 since you say the time signature is 6/8 versus 3/4. In 3/4 time you'd be a beat short for each measure in counting to the song posted. A shuffle pattern does not denote that a song is in 3/4 or 6/8 time (think "Build Me Up, Buttercup" as a prototype of a shuffle pattern song). I remember people making this same error in a post about time signatures a long time ago. Here is a song in the 6/8 time signature:
Now, compare it to the rhythm of the song I presented earlier:
The first one lends itself to counting 6 beats naturally versus the shuffle pattern, 4/4 song by The Temps, which does not.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
turn on your asr10 or mpc or whatever, set the time to 4/4 and try and recreate any of those drum patterns. it wont work.
if you double the tempo youre counting, youll get it.
Hey Tom,
Actually, it will work but I'd have to use the 16th note, triplet (shuffle) setting, seriously ;-) . It would be like programming a 90s type bounce-beat track like "Bucktown" (which is definitely in 4/4 time), but instead, programming the rhythm of The Temps joint.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
no man , the second you put it in triplets it becomes 6/8
you just said it yourself
check what happens at 1:28 the song is still in the same tempo
Hey Tom,
Here is a beat programmed in a shuffle pattern in 4/4 time as I described earlier:
Note the similarity in the rhythm to The Temps song I posted:
All you did at the 1:28 point of your song was to change the meter to a slow, 4/4 shuffle rhythm. You were still in 4/4 time, not 6/8 time. In fact, a true 6/8 time rhythm (ala the Seal track) would have thrown the track off-time, so you couldn't have done that as seamlessly as you did with the slow 4/4 pattern you used (nice transition, by the way).
Also, you can play triplets in 4/4 time. Listen to the snare drum and quadra-tom parts:
I played both snare drum (freshman and sophomore years) and quads (junior and senior years) in marching band and had to memorize the sheet music in order to march. Plus, I've played drums in some capacity since age 5 (started with the drum set first, played in orchestra, jazz band, and marching band throughout junior high and high school, various other bands, etc.), so I know a little something about time signatures and rhythms. In addition, I NEVER sat below 1st chair (i.e., the top player in a particular section of the band, the percussion section, in my case; decided via competitive auditions between members of sections) throughout organized playing (orchestra and marching band because I started really young; the span of time was 6 years straight as 1st chair), and I served as drum captain my last two years of high school. In fact, I was the first in school history to be nominated drum captain as a junior (some senior-level cats were salty too). Our drum section won numerous competitions for our drum cadences similar to the one I posted. I say all this to assert that I'm not talking off the cuff here, I bring some true credential to the discussion.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
hate to break up this time signature argument, but does anyone know what the drums are on this track? would appreciate some
Hey Tom,
Here are the two shuffle pattern, 4/4 time songs:
You can clearly hear the similarity in rhythm pattern between the top 2 songs. Just count to them 1, 2, 3, 4 and you can sense the 4/4 meter (or pulse) of the songs. I think you're sensing the "bounciness" of the shuffle rhythm as 6/8, but it's not. If you use 6-counts to either song above (i.e., 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), you'll end up 2 counts short of 2 measures (i.e., two, 4-count bars), which shows that 6/8 is NOT the proper time signature of either song. You end your 6-count in the middle of the 2nd bar of the musical phrase, which would throw off the rhythm of the song if the band played it in 6/8 time. You should notice you hit "6" at an awkward place in the musical phrase, whereas you hit "4" (or "8" if you use 8-counts, or two, 4-count bars) in an intuitive, natural part of the phrase. The ONLY exception is the breakdown in the 1st verse of "Who Knows". Not suprisingly, though, the subsequent breakdowns conformed to a 4-count pattern (or 8-count for two bars in 4/4), which leads me to think that maybe the 1st one was a fuck-up. Also, you'll notice the beat below, which I programmed myself in 4/4 time in a shuffle pattern, has the same meter (or pulse) as the above two songs:
Because the beat is in 4/4 time, if you use 6-count bars (i.e., 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), you end up two counts short of the end of the sequence (which is an 8-count, or 2-bar sequence of 4-counts each in 4/4 time). In other words, you reach "6" in the middle of the 2nd bar of the sequence at the 1st snare note. That is not the proper place to end a measure in 4/4 time, it should be on the 2nd snare (the "8" count of a 2-bar sequence or the "4" count of a 1-bar sequence).
Here is the Seal joint which is in 6/8 time:
On this one, count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and you'll notice you're back at the beginning of the musical phrase on the next "1" count (although it's tricky, because there are some 3-count bars mixed in too, on occasion). You can clearly hear the difference in rhythm between (a) the first two songs and the programmed beat versus (b) the Seal joint (i.e., based upon a 4-beat count versus a 6-beat count). If not, we can agree to disagree. It's all good, I love a good debate. Also, here's another popular 6/8 time song:
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
There's triplets in 4/4 time sig's.
Peep game: http://www.freesheetmusic.net/chopin/2 Nocturnes, Op 27.pdf
The sheet music is in common time, which is 4/4. In the 6th measure, you can see the G#, F#, E line shows a "3" underneath, so you know its not 8th notes, but in fact splitting 1 quarter note into thirds.
Additionally, the left hand splits 2 quarter notes (or 2 beats of the masure) into 6ths. Its been a while since i really talked about music theory, but i believe its the same as saying the left plays 4 sets of triplets, but its easier to communicate this by writing them as 1/6ths.
Triplets and such are rhytmic notation that would not alter a time signature for a song.
for some reason the link has percentage symbols in it and i cant get this thing to stop deleting the percentage symbols in that link and creating spaces instead - so here's a screen grab:
b/w
"boner softening style" :exclaim:
this has definitely hit dorkcon 10...
here's your shuffle, buddy:
http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdVPE.asp?ppn=MN0037336
this is officially retarded. there's no agreeing to disagree... this isnt a matter of opinion.