Remember When Some Folks Were Saying GWB....(NRR)
Rockadelic
Out Digging 13,993 Posts
was going to suspend the Constitution and find a way to remain president past his legal term(s).Well of course it didn't happen but that is what appears to be happening in Honduras.My Honduran national co-worker is very upset with President Obama for his position on this one and I can see his point.
Comments
I do remember that.
But that is not what is happening in Honduras. (Unless I missed breaking news where President Zelaya has returned and ousted the military.)
My understanding was that the duly elected president of Honduras called for there to be a vote to allow a constitutional convention.
Supposedly so he could get another term.
He was then ousted in a military coup.
If he had not been ousted there may have been a vote.
The vote may have been yes to a constitutional convention.
The constitution may have been rewritten to allow an other term.
The new constitution may then have been ratified by the people.
He may have then run for another term.
He might have won another term.
Every democracy in the Western Hemisphere has rightly condemned the coup.
The problem is, now that Honduras is a democracy it has a liberal socialist government.
That is because the people, the voters, of Honduras are poor and exploited.
The small middle and upper class are not happy with democracy.
At least that is the way I understand it.
Here's some reality....
Mr Zelaya was elected in 2006 for a non-renewable four-year term but planned a vote asking Hondurans to sanction a future referendum to allow him to run for re-election.
He was opposed by the country's Supreme Court, the military, Congress and members of his own party, the Liberal Party of Honduras.[/b]
Last week he sacked the country's top military chief, General Romeo Vasquez, and also accepted the resignation of Defense Minister Edmundo Orellana after military commanders refused to distribute ballot boxes for Sunday's vote.
But in defiance of the president the Honduran Supreme Court unanimously voted to reinstate General Vasquez.
Chavez tried to do the same thing and was defeated, democratically, by the people. He too faced an illegal military coup openly backed our gov't. Where is your. outrage about these coups?
Remember when someone posted that this was Obama's first coup? Well come to find out the admin had been working to stop the coup and has been instrumental in undermining it. Does anyine here believe that pres Cheney would have stood with democracy? Go tell your Honduran friend it sucks to be on the wrong side of the people sometimes. I can relate. The Reagan years blew.
Chavez is a good role model.
Again.....
He was opposed by the country's Supreme Court, the military, Congress and members of his own party, the Liberal Party of Honduras.[/b]
So...it is ok for the military to decide if dude should be removed as president?
Rockalogic fail.
Yeah dude....the Military are the only folks listed there.
His OWN DAMN PARTY wanted the dude to step down per his democratically elected term limits.
You folks never cease to amaze me.
I'm sure you would have supported GWB asking for a similar vote to change our Constituition
You mean like Bloomberg, I don't see NY state troopers sending him to NJ. The fact is the guys term wasn't up yet. If he were to amend the constitution and be allowed to run for another term that would be different than naming himself king for life would it not? He would still need to be re-elected.
I won't waste my breath on this anymore though. Once you have made up your mind about a point, no matter how retarded, you see it through without deviating in the slightest. Perhaps we could have a moderhater remove you from this thread and send you to the-breaks.com.
There was no vote by the people to extend Term Limits in NYC...it was approved by a DEMOCRATIC GOVERNING BODY.
The New York City Council has approved changes in the term-limits law that will allow Mayor Michael Bloomberg to seek re-election next year.
The council passed the bill Thursday by a vote of 29-22. The bill gives city officeholders the option of three consecutive four-year terms.
In Honduras the "DEMOCRATIC GOVERNING BODY" that included the Congress and Supreme Court made their decision.
Oh that's right the plebiscite would not have been a democratic approach to determining if they should move forward with a constitutional convention. God forbid should the people voice their own opinion about what they want.
Dude, you still haven't addressed whether the coup was a) illegal b) undemocratic and c) who was your favorite performer at he MJ memorial.
A - No
The Honduran constitution clearly lays out an impeachment process that must be followed to trial and convict a President that has violated the Law. But this same Constitution also includes a single exception to this rule in article 239, which states that the President that violates the principle of alternation of the Presidency or simply proposes its reform, will immediately cease in the exercise of office. In other words, the simple act of proposing the reform removes ispo jure (by operation of law) a President from office.
B - No (See Above)
C - Usher
I have yet to see anyone produce any firm (n/h) evidence regarding the role of the current and the previous American administrations in the Zelaya coup, either for or against. I certainly don't disbelieve that this government or any American government previous would undermine a democratically-elected government, especially one tending toward semi-socialist liberalism--from Guatemala on, that's practically the national pastime (for which we apparently traded beisbol to Am??ricalatina)--but where's the real schitt?
Links please
Dude...just google Usher
And then "Honduran Constitution Article 239" so you can pick a website you feel is unbiased and read all about it.
Article 239 is an excerpt from a letter?? Really??
Let's just see how this plays out...I know what side of the argument fans of Castro and Chavez fall on.
Canada, Israel and Taiwan are back peddling on their support of Zelaya.
The reason the constitution reads the way it does(and has for almost 30 years) is to prevent folks like Hugo and Fidel from getting in power.
Let Zelaya finish out the term that he was democratically elected to.
Then hold elections for the next president.
If changing amending the constitution is unconstitutional (as Rock says) then skip that part.
I hope when Obama decides to make a change in the leadership of our military Rock doesn't call for his overthrow. Then again, perhaps someday he will be less popular with Congress, Supreme Court and the Democrats, so his overthrow would be ok.
My opinions and thoughts are pretty unimportant in the scheme of things.
Read the Honduran Cosnstitution and then make your own decision on whether the removal of Zelaya was legal and democratic, even if you disagreed with it.
And as far as this "as Rock says" crap goes, I was referencing a specific article of their written Constitution, not giving an opinion.
Typical.
Make a whole bunch of outrageous statements.
Then deny they are your opinions.
Yep, outrageous statements....uh huh.
Humor me, of all my outrageous statements in this thread I'd love to hear which one you found MOST outrageous.
was going to suspend the Constitution and find a way to remain president past his legal term(s).
Well of course it didn't happen but that is what appears to be happening in Honduras.
The quote you cited is from a letter by a Honduran Lawyer (I googled the quote). He is interpreting Honduran constitutional law. I will do my own research to see what article 239 in fact says.
Funny comment from someone who seems to have no knowledge of the US constitution.
Doesn't understand why police randomly taking blood samples from Americans is unconstitutional but, is an Honduran Constitution scholar.
Fair enough....I've read it verbatim at at least 3 sites and it's seems pretty cut and dry.....would like to hear your take.
You crack yourself up, don't you, all-knowing Oracle.
The Congress and Supreme Court of Honduras don't know shit compared to you.
No offence dude, but your facts are skewed and your basing your opinion on ONE Honduran. Does that mean I can make judgements about the US based one the handful of US heads Ive met?
The reality is, if Zelaya had committed any of the 'crimes' he's accused of, why would he be deported? why not hold him in jail and put him on trial?
This is very similar to what they tried to do to Chavez (with US State Dept backing).... and its what most US Govt have allowed and supported to happen in Latin America for decades.... Props to Obama for at least making an effort to not show support.
Zelaya has the right to sack who he wants as ELECTED President...dont forget that part...he did get ELECTED by the people as opposed to any military person. and the military in Latin America are the most ruthless corrupt evil pieces of shit around... so Im sure Zelaya had his reasons for the sackings.
Check what you wrote..."after military commanders refused to distribute ballot boxes for Sunday's vote." that sums it up. the military isnt elected or have the power to decide that, they are an arm of the governemnt and should do what they say.
Imagine if the US army decided they didnt want a black president and refused to distrubte ballot boxes for the last election cause they knew Obama would win.... thats whats happening in honduras.
The 'rich and elite' of Honduras knew that Zelaya had popular support for his plans (and they were not just about extending his presidnetial run).
If not why not let the balloit talke place and the people vote against it? the fact he was willing to hold a referendum (as opposed to the coup leaders who have used un democratic means to dispose him) shows who the real dictators are....
"ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive branch may not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and support those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the discharge of their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10) years to exercise any public function."
ALSO IT DOESNT SAY THAT THE PRESIDENT WILL BE DEPORTED!!!
The constitution of Honduras was followed to the letter.
Let's watch how this plays out.
That's what I'm gonna do......and my money is on Zelaya never returning to power.
Check out Article 313
Article 239 ??? No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.
Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jul/07/honduras-zelaya-coup-micheletti
Michael Lisman
As Honduras enters its second week of political crisis, the international community is beginning to take a second look at the murky circumstances under which the Honduran president Manuel Zelaya was removed from office and exiled from the country on June 28.
Until last weekend, world leaders were unanimous in their condemnation of the so-called military coup. But having been forced to watch the spectacle continue for a second straight week, the world has now become painfully aware of two things they had not anticipated.
The first is how ardent, unanimous, and organized the interim government in Honduras is against any sort of reprieve for Zelaya, much less his reinstatement.
The second is how erratic and unfit for leadership Zelaya has become. Both realisations have caused diplomats to rethink their strategies in the push for Zelaya's immediate and unrestricted return to power. As the standoff continues this week, the international community would be wise to bite its tongue and instead, push for what world leaders initially called a "Honduran solution" ??? even if it's not the one they had in mind.
Last week's stance was simple: whether or not Zelaya's ouster is deemed a coup or not, removal of a democratically elected president by military force cannot be endorsed. With little further understanding of the contemporary politics of Honduras, this was the starting point with which the international community reacted. Initially, it appeared highly unlikely that the interim government assembled last week would be able to resist the mounting international pressure and growing isolation to reinstate Zelaya. Central American neighbours temporarily closed their borders to Honduras, donor agencies suspended aid, and some governments even threatened military intervention. As of last week, not a single country had agreed to recognise Roberto Micheletti as the new head of state. For one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere, economic and political isolation in the name of liberty is simply not tenable, so the reasoning went.
Over the weekend, that reasoning changed. On Sunday, Zelaya's triumphant return was stymied by a determined Honduran military, and bolstered by popular support for the interim government. Zelaya's premature and embarrassing return attempt may well prove to be the turning point in this high-stakes drama. As the clock ticks on Zelaya's comeback, the option of moving up November's elections to September becomes an increasingly appealing resolution for the international community.
Widely reviled by the political class in Honduras (including the leaders of his own Honduran Liberal Party), Zelaya is now known not only as the hapless president ousted at gunpoint in his pajamas, but also by his atrocious governance record and erratic behaviour ??? which includes nearly doubling the minimum wage to the severe detriment of his country's economy, repeatedly refusing to submit a 2009 budget to congress, and ultimately disavowing both legislative and judicial checks on his power. Some countries, such as Canada, Taiwan and Israel are beginning to hedge their initial tacit support for Zelaya's return. Others that were only last week pushing for Zelaya's reinstatement are starting to realise that the bloodshed and turmoil that his return would inevitably cause may simply not be worth the trouble.
With the standoff as it is, key international leaders and organisations should take the following steps ??? some of which they may already be doing behind closed doors - to help Honduras move forward.
First, someone in Micheletti's circle needs to help his interim government understand the necessity of managing its international public relations to help position itself for the coming negotiations. Loyalist partisans now serving as spokespeople for the government have failed miserably in persuading anyone outside of Tegucigalpa that the Honduran constitution ??? which has no single mention of a provision for the removal of a president from office ??? provides a legal basis for their actions. Blind intransigence worked to create the impasse thus far, but it will undercut their position as they seek to regain the confidence and repeal the sanctions of their allies, as well to placate a confused and increasingly indignant Honduran population.
Second, outsiders must ratchet down the rhetoric on "the future of Hemispheric democracy," the pressure to cut out aid for the poor, and the impending loss of OAS membership. They should focus less on pure democratic principles ??? which have clearly failed Hondurans in one way or another over the past several months ??? and more on pragmatic solutions that take into account both the precarious conditions on the ground and alternative resolutions that don't necessarily include Zelaya's full restoration.
Third, as Zelaya returns this week to Washington DC for meetings, key players like Hillary Clinton and Jose Miguel Insulza should take the opportunity to privately remind Zelaya and his entourage that without widespread international support, he would quickly join the lonely ranks of other regional coup victims such as Haiti's Jean-Bertrand Aristide and Ecuador's Jamil Mahuad ??? inept and corrupt heads of state that were also removed from office, but with less than fierce global support for their respective reinstatements (both men live quite comfortably in exile today).
This might temper Zelaya's sense of entitlement and help him see the merit of scenarios that entail him standing down for the good and safety of his country. If some world leaders ??? perhaps Brazil's Lula ??? can shake some sense into Zelaya by threatening to temper international support, Zelaya could be forced to acquiesce to a brokered deal of immunity in return for a voluntary resignation. If he refuses, his only other option would be taking shelter within the Latin American left led by Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, a bloc which would make him a political martyr but likely be ineffective in retuning him to power, especially as the Honduran interim government seeks to run out the clock on Zelaya's remaining term in office.
We now know that a deal must be brokered, and that cooler heads must prevail. In order to curtail increased suffering and possible bloodshed, swift action towards a peaceful resolution is called for. Swift action this week, however, as opposed to last week, will now need to be coupled with more nuanced consideration of the problems and a focus on pragmatic solutions.