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Science problem (Black vs White) NRR

skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
edited June 2009 in Strut Central
A new conundrum from my 13yo boy this weekend:A black object is black because it does not reflect any coloured light.Since all coloured light added together equals white, then a black object has absorbed the white light....and so black objects are white.
Black is the color of objects that do not emit or reflect light in any part of the visible spectrum; they absorb all such frequencies of light.
White objects, on the other hand, reflect all the coloured light and so are actually colourless rather than white.Or maybe they are black on the basis that black is the absence of colour.
Black is both a color and scientifically speaking the absence of color.
Black is white and white is black.......WTF?Not sure if this is a question of physics, chemistry, philosophy or language.....but somebody please help me out.BONUS BEAT
On January 16, 2008, researchers from Troy, New York???s Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute announced the creation of the darkest material on the planet. The material, which reflects only .045 percent of light, was created from carbon nanotubes stood on end. It absorbs nearly 30 times more light than the current standard for blackness, and is 3 times darker than the current record holder for darkest substance. Scientists claim that the new material has great potential in the manufacturing of solar panels.

  Comments

  • georgeibrahimgeorgeibrahim 676 Posts
    this is actually to do with perception, we perceive the light of certain wavelengths to be coloured due to the different sensory cells on our retina, but no-one can tell whether the colour they see is the same as the colour someone else sees. black objects actually absorb all wavelengths in the visible spectrum, hence we see an abscence of colour (black), white is more difficult to explain.
  • LokoOneLokoOne 1,823 Posts
    not much of a science buff...but isnt one of the factors involved the ability to 'split' a spectrum of light.

    White light can be broken down to its elemental colour components (which doesnt include black-so there for black isnt really a colour?), but you can't do the same with black, you can't breakdown or extract the colours in it.

    By the way is there such a thing as black light? Does the colour black have any particles or frequency?



    damn, good question for me to ponder tonight.... its up there with "what are we before we are born?" and "what would exist if there was nothingness"?

    Intresting enough I was just reading an article about different 'creation myths' from around the globe annd how many all have the same story basis, that there was 'nothing' but darkness, usually dark still water, and in that void/nothingness/darkness existed the potential for everything,
  • SLurgSLurg 446 Posts
    A new conundrum from my 13yo boy this weekend:

    A black object is black because it does not reflect any coloured light.
    Since all coloured light added together equals white, then a black object has absorbed the white light....and so black objects are white.
    No, because "Absorb" is the opposite of "reflect".
  • ronaldraygunronaldraygun 46 Posts
    A new conundrum from my 13yo boy this weekend:

    A black object is black because it does not reflect any coloured light.
    Since all coloured light added together equals white, then a black object has absorbed the white light....and so black objects are white.
    No, because "Absorb" is the opposite of "reflect".


    nail on the head
  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    But if black objects have absorbed the white light.... doesn't that mean they now contain white, and so are therefore white?
  • ReynaldoReynaldo 6,054 Posts
    The black object would absorb the energy of the white light.
  • funkfromthesunfunkfromthesun 212 Posts
    Nah. We perceive objects as having different colors because the objects reflect different frequencies of light. The objects themselves don't have colors.
  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    The objects themselves don't have colors.

    This could bring down civilisation as we know it.
  • ronaldraygunronaldraygun 46 Posts
    But if black objects have absorbed the white light.... doesn't that mean they now contain white, and so are therefore white?

    they dont absorb and contain; the 'absorption' of (white) light destroys the light waves. a black object isnt coloured black, it is just an object which absorbs b/w destroys light waves.

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    But if black objects have absorbed the white light.... doesn't that mean they now contain white, and so are therefore white?

    they dont absorb and contain; the 'absorption' of (white) light destroys the light waves. a black object isnt coloured black, it is just an object which absorbs b/w destroys light waves.

    Ok, so the light wave gets destroyed.... except 'destroyed' means 'transferred into another form of energy', such as heat, right?

    So 'black' objects exposed to light get hotter.

    However... I hear that light has a wave / particle duality.

    So can it be said, in some sense, that white light does indeed get absorbed, if you buy this idea that light is a particle?
  • DB_CooperDB_Cooper Manhatin' 7,823 Posts
    However... I hear that light has a wave / particle duality.

    So can it be said, in some sense, that white light does indeed get absorbed, if you buy this idea that light is a particle?

    The wave/particle duality of light means that light acts like both a wave and a particle at different times. When it acts as a particle, however, it is still a manifestation of subatomic energy, and as such, its absorption by the black surface can be thought of as either the transmutation of particulate or waveform light into heat.
  • DB_CooperDB_Cooper Manhatin' 7,823 Posts
    By the way is there such a thing as black light?

    Color is a perception by an observer of different frequencies of light. Most of the spectrum of light cannot be perceived by the human eye, so in that sense, most light is "black" or unobservable to humans. See: infrared and ultraviolet light for examples.[/b]

    Does the colour black have any particles or frequency?

    Again, color is a matter of perception, so no, it does not have any of the attributes of matter or energy, including frequency or mass.[/b]

    "what are we before we are born?"

    Subatomic particles roaming the universe in various combinations with other subatomic particles.[/b]

    "what would exist if there was nothingness"?

    Nothingness. To say that nothingness exists is a semantic error, not a contradiction of concepts.[/b]

    Also, the egg came first, the sky is blue because of the way we perceive light refracted by the earth's atmosphere, and if a tree falls in the woods, percussion waves are created, but sound is a perception, so if no one is there to hear it, it does not create a sound.

    You're welcome.
  • ronaldraygunronaldraygun 46 Posts
    But if black objects have absorbed the white light.... doesn't that mean they now contain white, and so are therefore white?

    they dont absorb and contain; the 'absorption' of (white) light destroys the light waves. a black object isnt coloured black, it is just an object which absorbs b/w destroys light waves.

    Ok, so the light wave gets destroyed.... except 'destroyed' means 'transferred into another form of energy', such as heat, right?

    So 'black' objects exposed to light get hotter.

    However... I hear that light has a wave / particle duality.

    So can it be said, in some sense, that white light does indeed get absorbed, if you buy this idea that light is a particle?

    a black object does get hotter

    see the picture above of the radiometer. paddles, one side white / one side black in a vacuum. when placed in direct sunlight it will start rotating as the light particles reflect off the white side and the black absorbs light creating reduced 'light resistance(???)' enables it to spin a la solar sail (kind of)
  • JuniorJunior 4,853 Posts


    Also, the egg came first, the sky is blue because of the way we perceive light refracted by the earth's atmosphere, and if a tree falls in the woods, percussion waves are created, but sound is a perception, so if no one is there to hear it, it does not create a sound.

    You're welcome.

    Jeez how about a spoiler alert next time?
  • mylatencymylatency 10,475 Posts
    By the way is there such a thing as black light?

    Color is a perception by an observer of different frequencies of light. Most of the spectrum of light cannot be perceived by the human eye, so in that sense, most light is "black" or unobservable to humans. See: infrared and ultraviolet light for examples.[/b]

    Does the colour black have any particles or frequency?

    Again, color is a matter of perception, so no, it does not have any of the attributes of matter or energy, including frequency or mass.[/b]

    "what are we before we are born?"

    Subatomic particles roaming the universe in various combinations with other subatomic particles.[/b]

    "what would exist if there was nothingness"?

    Nothingness. To say that nothingness exists is a semantic error, not a contradiction of concepts.[/b]

    Also, the egg came first, the sky is blue because of the way we perceive light refracted by the earth's atmosphere, and if a tree falls in the woods, percussion waves are created, but sound is a perception, so if no one is there to hear it, it does not create a sound.

    You're welcome.


    PLEASE TO ANSWER:

    WHAT IS THE MEANING OF LIFE? THANKS BILL NYE SCIENCE GUY
  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    By the way is there such a thing as black light?

    Color is a perception by an observer of different frequencies of light. Most of the spectrum of light cannot be perceived by the human eye, so in that sense, most light is "black" or unobservable to humans. See: infrared and ultraviolet light for examples.[/b]

    Does the colour black have any particles or frequency?

    Again, color is a matter of perception, so no, it does not have any of the attributes of matter or energy, including frequency or mass.[/b]

    "what are we before we are born?"

    Subatomic particles roaming the universe in various combinations with other subatomic particles.[/b]

    "what would exist if there was nothingness"?

    Nothingness. To say that nothingness exists is a semantic error, not a contradiction of concepts.[/b]

    Also, the egg came first, the sky is blue because of the way we perceive light refracted by the earth's atmosphere, and if a tree falls in the woods, percussion waves are created, but sound is a perception, so if no one is there to hear it, it does not create a sound.

    You're welcome.


    PLEASE TO ANSWER:

    WHAT IS THE MEANING OF LIFE? THANKS BILL NYE SCIENCE GUY

    Difficult to say...
    It's not a black and white issue
  • DB_CooperDB_Cooper Manhatin' 7,823 Posts
    WHAT IS THE MEANING OF LIFE?

    Whatever you make it to be.

  • DJ_EnkiDJ_Enki 6,471 Posts
    You have to ask yourself: "How much more black could this light be?" And the answer is none more black.

  • GrandfatherGrandfather 2,303 Posts
    Next time just tell your son to post his question here and avoid yourself the embarrassment of not knowing shit






































  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    Next time just tell your son to post his question here and avoid yourself the embarrassment of not knowing shit

    You don't know the answer, do you.
  • ZEN2ZEN2 1,540 Posts
    This thread is racist.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Your son enjoys contradictory conundrums doesn't he?
  • dukeofdelridgedukeofdelridge urgent.monkey.mice 2,453 Posts
    sounds like it'd be a perfect time to say "everything is everything, son," and walk away.

    i'm deep like that.
  • twoplytwoply Only Built 4 Manzanita Links 2,914 Posts
    Your son reminds me of my ten-year-old nephew. He's high-functioning Asperger's with a very high IQ. He thinks this makes him smarter than most people (actually, I suspect his failure of a father regularly tells him as much), which in a way he is, but he doesn't realize that he lacks the necessary life experience and education to actually school anyone.

    He explained to me a couple of months ago that he was trying to figure out how to make a perpetual motion machine, something which, he was eager to point out, has been attempted by great engineering minds the world over. He said his idea involved only a fan and an electric generator. With my limited scientific knowledge I tried to explain that in his situation there would still be a net energy loss. His response was along the lines of, "Oh, I thought you could just push the fan blade to start it and it would keep going forever."

    He has these grand ideas, but lacks the level of schooling to actually do anything with all his brainpower, and I think it frustrates him.
  • LokoOneLokoOne 1,823 Posts
    ""what would exist if there was nothingness"?

    Nothingness. To say that nothingness exists is a semantic error, not a contradiction of concepts."

    I disagree. there can be no such thing as 'nothing' as there always has to be 'something' for that 'nothing' to exist inside of.. eg there is nothing inside the box, there is nothing hapeing at the club, there is nothing worth buying from that record store, there is nothing iside the fuel tank etc etc.

    So even in the old creations myths that talk about 'nothingness' they refer to a infinite dark expansion of water that contains the roots of everything.

    There is also a whole school of eastern philospohy a friend of mine was really into that ponders thought vs non thought. eg where do your thoughts come from, what are they before they exist as thoughts, do they have a 'body' to them, is the absence of thought equal to nothingness or is that something in itself.... etc

    PS Skel...keep encouraging your kid to podner these questions, its cats like that who will be inventing new shit in the future. Leaders never follow.
  • ronaldraygunronaldraygun 46 Posts
    nothingness is what it says... there would be nothing. our feeble minds had to give it a name.
  • nzshadownzshadow 5,518 Posts
  • JimsterJimster Cruffiton.etsy.com 6,889 Posts
    "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

    "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D.."

    "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

    "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
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