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Obama Drug Czar Says Delcare Victory (Drug War R)

SaracenusSaracenus 671 Posts
edited May 2009 in Strut Central
This was floated out there and didn't seem to raise a peep, the times are a changing. Oh course the Governator in California got more press for saying that his state should legalize Marijuana to raise tax revenue. Link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124225891527617397.html
The Obama administration's new drug czar says he wants to banish the idea that the U.S. is fighting "a war on drugs," a move that would underscore a shift favoring treatment over incarceration in trying to reduce illicit drug use.In his first interview since being confirmed to head the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, Gil Kerlikowske said Wednesday the bellicose analogy was a barrier to dealing with the nation's drug issues."Regardless of how you try to explain to people it's a 'war on drugs' or a 'war on a product,' people see a war as a war on them," he said. "We're not at war with people in this country."
All I can say is, its about f*ckin' time we treat this as a public health issue and not a criminal issue.
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  Comments

  • sticky_dojahsticky_dojah New York City. 2,136 Posts
    cosign. But wtf is happening in your avatar?
  • SaracenusSaracenus 671 Posts
    cosign. But wtf is happening in your avatar?

    I believe it was a joke gone wrong at a high school. It looks like the AV nerds setup a camera and a mic near the recycle can (which has a buddy in a mask inside) and they start to "interview" someone.

    I am sure they thought they would get some great reaction shots of people screaming or jumping away and instead the victim clocks the guy in the mask.
  • shawnald_reaganshawnald_reagan 318 Posts
    I remain cynical concerning the prospect of legalizing "soft" drugs but as a recent Zogby poll suggested, it seems as though most people would favor the decriminalization of marijuana. Maybe I'll see this in my lifetime, but somehow I doubt it. I don't think enough industry could be constructed around the cultivation of weed like say, tobbacco. And I don't see the idea of taxing it as being very feasable (why pay taxes when you can grow your own?)so I remain skeptical. I hope I see it but I doubt it.
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    I remain cynical concerning the prospect of legalizing "soft" drugs but as a recent Zogby poll suggested, it seems as though most people would favor the decriminalization of marijuana. Maybe I'll see this in my lifetime, but somehow I doubt it. I don't think enough industry could be constructed around the cultivation of weed like say, tobbacco. And I don't see the idea of taxing it as being very feasable (why pay taxes when you can grow your own?)so I remain skeptical. I hope I see it but I doubt it.

    Sure some enterprising folks may grow their own like folks home brew beer, but most folks would just go down to the store and buy it.

    I see no problem whatsoever setting up a "pot" industry and taxing it just like any other "sin tax" out there.

    This needs to happen.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I remain cynical concerning the prospect of legalizing "soft" drugs but as a recent Zogby poll suggested, it seems as though most people would favor the decriminalization of marijuana. Maybe I'll see this in my lifetime, but somehow I doubt it. I don't think enough industry could be constructed around the cultivation of weed like say, tobbacco. And I don't see the idea of taxing it as being very feasable (why pay taxes when you can grow your own?)so I remain skeptical. I hope I see it but I doubt it.

    The decriminalization of MJ has been happening for over 10 years now, state-by-state.

    And while there may be folks who try to avoid paying taxes, I think there are others who'd line up to be able to sell their product without fear of reprisal.
  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    If you'd have asked me two months ago, I'd have said legalization wouldn't happen in CA for about another 7-10 years. But man, with the number of big name supporters, I could really imagine this being on the ballot as a proposition in two, and consequently shoved in the face of the feds as a result.

    I think it will be really hard to pass though if it goes that way.
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    someone on here said they were gonna charge something stupid per oz. of marijuana. it will remain underground, just like the harrison narcotics act of 1914 caused, because people won't want to pay the tax.
    btw, that guy's quote said "this country," an important specificity included in the statement.
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    someone on here said they were gonna charge something stupid per oz. of marijuana. it will remain underground, just like the harrison narcotics act of 1914 caused, because people won't want to pay the tax.
    btw, that guy's quote said "this country," an important specificity included in the statement.

    Based on everything I've read I believe prices will be considerably less than current "street value".
  • shawnald_reaganshawnald_reagan 318 Posts
    Hmmm, is it taxed in California?
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    someone on here said they were gonna charge something stupid per oz. of marijuana. it will remain underground, just like the harrison narcotics act of 1914 caused, because people won't want to pay the tax.
    btw, that guy's quote said "this country," an important specificity included in the statement.

    Based on everything I've read I believe prices will be considerably less than current "street value".
    hmmm. i haven't heard a quote for projected prices other than SS, which is unreliable. perhaps the skreet will cut it prices to stay competitive.
  • spivyspivy 866 Posts
    i have always hated the term "war on drugs" as well as "war on terror". the word "war" implies that there will be some sort of end. either thru victory or defeat. neither of which seem possible. tolerance of use and treatment of abuse seems to be the only logical way to deal with drug use in this country. we need to address drug use as a health issue not a criminal one. eliminating the blackmarket for drugs (like alcohol before it) is really the only reasonable option.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    The cost of mj production and processing is about equal to the cost of producing and processing tomatoes.
    Figure the cost to consumer double or triple that of a tomato due to regulations and taxes. Maybe we should say quadruple, mj producers will want a better return than what truck farmers live with.

    But the price can not go to high.
    Lots of people grow their own tomatoes, but only have fruit in the summer.
    Indoor, private use, mj operation will provide a bountiful year round harvest.
    The ability of people to grow their own will keep prices, and taxes down. As will it's weedy nature.
    Unless we outlaw the private growing of mj and only allow a few, select, authorized, agribiz types to grow it. Then prices and taxes could remain high.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Keep in mind - decriminalization and legalization are significantly different. I think it's absolutely reasonable to think a drug like marijuana, at the very least, will get decriminalized, nationally.

    Legalization is a different story - that would require government sanction in a way that goes fairly far beyond just decrim.

    But decriminalizing drug possession alone would be HUGE in terms of its impact on both the criminal justice and health care systems.

    By the way, other stuff I'd never thought I'd see legal in my lifetime?

    A Black president
    Gay marriage

    Legalizing drugs seems pretty minor actually compared to those things which have already come to pass or are in the process of.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Keep in mind - decriminalization and legalization are significantly different. I think it's absolutely reasonable to think a drug like marijuana, at the very least, will get decriminalized, nationally.

    Legalization is a different story - that would require government sanction in a way that goes fairly far beyond just decrim.

    But decriminalizing drug possession alone would be HUGE in terms of its impact on both the criminal justice and health care systems.

    By the way, other stuff I'd never thought I'd see legal in my lifetime?

    A Black president
    Gay marriage

    Legalizing drugs seems pretty minor actually compared to those things which have already come to pass or are in the process of.

    Right.

    I think we would all like to see 'ization.

    The current Oregon laws, with med car you can grow xnumber of plants and have xnumber of grams, is fatally flawed.

    Acquiring seeds or plants or buds is still illegal, even with the med card.

    And even with the med card legal state amounts are still a federal crime.

    We don't have buyer clubs here, like in Cali. (Those are illegal under CA law?)

    The other thing I saw in Cali, but have never seen here are 1/2 page ads.
    Guy in lab coat saying "come on down to the Dr Feelgood clinic, if you have, back pain, diabetes, poor vision, chronic itching ..." and 100 other ailments, "we will prescribe mj for you".
  • clint_torezclint_torez 87 Posts
    Although prices may drop if either of these situations were to be a reality(decriminalization/legalization), I think the quality is what most people will be considering when more options start to arise. With quality there are alot of angles to consider and one of them is weather they are grown indoors or outdoors and with that comes a significant price hike. It could be as prevalent as tomatoes but are many people eatting indoor grown tomatoes? Considering the over head and the taxing on top, I have a feeling the prices will remain the same if not higher. 1
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I'm no economist but I thought the reason for the high cost of drugs was mostly an outcome of supply and demand. Criminalization keeps supply lower than it would be if the drug were legal. Without criminalization, if there was an open conduit to be able to sell MJ to whoever wants it, wouldn't the increase in supply therefore bring the overall cost of the product down?
  • spivyspivy 866 Posts
    I'm no economist but I thought the reason for the high cost of drugs was mostly an outcome of supply and demand. Criminalization keeps supply lower than it would be if the drug were legal. Without criminalization, if there was an open conduit to be able to sell MJ to whoever wants it, wouldn't the increase in supply therefore bring the overall cost of the product down?
    i'm pretty sure a gram of high grade weed in amsterdam costs in and around $10 give or take. that is roughly half of what it cost for similar herb in the us.
  • dukeofdelridgedukeofdelridge urgent.monkey.mice 2,453 Posts
    This dude Kerlikowske was Seattle's Chief of Police...by most accounts, he was a disaster (complete mishandling of the WTO conference--although he had nothing to do with the horrible movie, thankfully; Mardi Gras crowd inaction left a dude dead; he's been accused of sitting on his hands too much--probably standard Chief procedures, though LOL)...

    At least one shining light has been his attitude towards marijuana. He supported the movement to make marijuana possession arrests the lowest priority for the cops, which seems to make a lot of sense. Hopefully he'll stick to it and we'll get some movement in the decriminilization direction...

    That said, he was a pretty weak Chief of Police up here...he handled a few things very poorly.
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    I'm no economist but I thought the reason for the high cost of drugs was mostly an outcome of supply and demand. Criminalization keeps supply lower than it would be if the drug were legal. Without criminalization, if there was an open conduit to be able to sell MJ to whoever wants it, wouldn't the increase in supply therefore bring the overall cost of the product down?

    Exactly
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I think there would be a specialization in product which could create different prices, just like for spirits.
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    I think there would be a specialization in product which could create different prices, just like for spirits.

    No doubt...right now on the skreets you can get an lb. of crapola for a low as $250 up to $2,500+ for top end.


    Typo corrected.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    It could be as prevalent as tomatoes but are many people eatting indoor grown tomatoes?

    Yes.
  • shawnald_reaganshawnald_reagan 318 Posts
    I think there would be a specialization in product which could create different prices, just like for spirits.

    No doubt...right now on the skreets you can get an oz. of crapola for a low as $250 up to $2,500+ for top end.

    Jesus Christ! Yo' skreetz is expensive! Out here it's more like $75-100 for crapola and $450-500 for the top end. Or so I've heard...
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    I think there would be a specialization in product which could create different prices, just like for spirits.

    No doubt...right now on the skreets you can get an oz. of crapola for a low as $250 up to $2,500+ for top end.

    Jesus Christ! Yo' skreetz is expensive! Out here it's more like $75-100 for crapola and $450-500 for the top end. Or so I've heard...

    Damn! I had those raers but I sold too soon.

    I was sitting on pounds of stuff that I sold off for $15oz. If I had just held on...
  • SaracenusSaracenus 671 Posts
    I think you guys are missing the larger picture on this. Sure, the price of recreational MJ would probably come down, way down but there is the industrial uses of hemp to consider as well.

    Hemp (and its byproducts) can be used as a raw material for paper, textiles, biodegradable plastics, construction, health food, and fuel. NOTE: By Hemp I mean a strain of cannabis that is not optimize for recreation use (i.e. it will be a shitty high at best).

    While hemp/cannabis is a relatively quick growing plant there would be competition for growing space depending on the potential revenue generated by either crop. So there would be pressure on prices based upon demand for it beyond just lighting up.

    However, my original post was more about the sea-change in how this administration is going to deal with drug addiction and abuse in this country.

    Don't get me wrong just because someone in the Obama administration says we should do something different doesn't mean that stakeholders (e.g. DEA, US Military, US Prison System) with an interest in the Drug War continuing won't stop it from happening.

    I think we are a long way from legalization (I will bet we see decriminalization first) of MJ and other "soft" drugs.

    All in all, this gives me hope that we are going to shed one of the most destructive policies that the US has enacted. The money and manpower we have pissed down a hole on the "Drug War" has not made us safer or done much to put a dent in drug use.
  • dukeofdelridgedukeofdelridge urgent.monkey.mice 2,453 Posts
    Please never mention the "hemp" argument again... Marijuana Legalization should be about grown adults being able to smoke some plant to get high responsibly.
    The sooner the Pro-Legalization poeple drop that silly fake argument and just say "we think it's a bad idea to spend all this money to outlaw a pretty harmless plant," the sooner non-smokers (like me) will help join in the fight. Damn, I'm almost with you just on the money side of it right now... But really: the hemp shit is silly. Nobody cares about what ropes are made of. Nobody cares about tshirts. Any time I hear that argument I just kinda take another sip of my beer and keep on driving dude F*ck all that hemp noise okay peace

    legalize it, though, yes

    I hope we end the whole thing. I cannot imagine anyone who's not a DEA agent who'd want it to continue as it is...shit's beat.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Duke totally misread Saracenus' argument.

    Saracenus was NOT saying: "we should legalize MJ b/c hemp is the wonder plant."

    What he was saying is that industrial uses of hemp might negatively impact the availability/supply of hemp for recreational use, thus driving up the cost of marijuana, similar to how ethanol has driven up the cost of corn. That's speculative logic but it's not bullshit logic IF hemp took off as an industrial product.

    To me, the weakness in the argument is that if hemp became a legal, profitable crop with MULTIPLE uses, you'd likely see more farmers changing over to growing and harvesting it, thus increasing supply.

    Moreover, you will ALWAYS have marijuana specialists cultivating their own crop for sale and if MJ was decriminalized or legalized, I would only expect to see the number of - shall we say, artisan growers? - increase, also upping the supply.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    my original post was more about the sea-change in how this administration is going to deal with drug addiction and abuse in this country.

    Word. I think this makes good sense. While I don't think the cost on the health care side will be as high as what we've spent on law enforcement and incarceration, it's reasonable to expect that if the number of MJ smokers increased exponentially, there'd be some health consequences that accompany it, whether directly (lung cancer) or indirectly (driving while high).

    And no, I don't think the administration is prepared to deal with those contingencies at this point. I think that's one reason why decriminilization has happened through baby steps. "Medical marijuana" has to be one of the greatest wink-winks in history but as a tacit form of legalization, it's part of the slow move in that direction. I don't think it will be that long that we have to keep up the pretense of MJ serving as a medicinal aid vs. just something for recreational use.
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Duke totally misread Saracenus' argument.

    Saracenus was NOT saying: "we should legalize MJ b/c hemp is the wonder plant."

    What he was saying is that industrial uses of hemp might negatively impact the availability/supply of hemp for recreational use, thus driving up the cost of marijuana, similar to how ethanol has driven up the cost of corn. That's speculative logic but it's not bullshit logic IF hemp took off as an industrial product.

    To me, the weakness in the argument is that if hemp became a legal, profitable crop with MULTIPLE uses, you'd likely see more farmers changing over to growing and harvesting it, thus increasing supply.

    Moreover, you will ALWAYS have marijuana specialists cultivating their own crop for sale and if MJ was decriminalized or legalized, I would only expect to see the number of - shall we say, artisan growers? - increase, also upping the supply.

    I've always thought the legal Hemp industry existed for no other reason than to be prepared when dope became legal.

    I can see it now...... "Hi, I'm Willie Nelson and I've been smoking dope for 65 years and I'm proud to announce that now you too can smoke some "Willie's Wacky Weed" coming to a Drive-Thru Dope Depot near you"


    "Dennis Hopper for "Feck-Weed"
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Duke totally misread Saracenus' argument.

    Saracenus was NOT saying: "we should legalize MJ b/c hemp is the wonder plant."

    What he was saying is that industrial uses of hemp might negatively impact the availability/supply of hemp for recreational use, thus driving up the cost of marijuana, similar to how ethanol has driven up the cost of corn. That's speculative logic but it's not bullshit logic IF hemp took off as an industrial product.

    To me, the weakness in the argument is that if hemp became a legal, profitable crop with MULTIPLE uses, you'd likely see more farmers changing over to growing and harvesting it, thus increasing supply.

    Moreover, you will ALWAYS have marijuana specialists cultivating their own crop for sale and if MJ was decriminalized or legalized, I would only expect to see the number of - shall we say, artisan growers? - increase, also upping the supply.

    I've always thought the legal Hemp industry existed for no other reason than to be prepared when dope became legal.

    I can see it now...... "Hi, I'm Willie Nelson and I've been smoking dope for 65 years and I'm proud to announce that now you too can smoke some "Willie's Wacky Weed" coming to a Drive-Thru Dope Depot near you"


    "Dennis Hopper for "Feck-Weed"

    No. Doubt.
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