i am seriously considering tweaking two old papers of mine for the two we gotta write for this class. is that unprofessional? stacks?
You know that's foul, Tripledouble. See, I ask my colleagues whether a student has written a particular paper for their classes. If so, then I give the student an 'F'. Profs communicate about these things so I hope you don't get caught.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Co-sign. I'd do the exact same thing Stacks would do. It's not so much that you're plagiarizing from yourself but you're not turning in "original material" either. At the very least, you'd be subverting the whole point of the assignment and that alone would earn it an "F."
By the way TripDubs...plagiarism software exists partially to catch examples like you just laid out. I wouldn't risk it, son!
the guys teaching the course arent part of the department...they just come in every other year to teach this course. twould still be risky.
but isnt it my work in the first place? or is it violating a "double dipping" code? F*ck!!!!!!!!! these guys put so little effort into this shit, i feel like im just following suit
I've had a couple instructors specifically mention that reusing a prior paper is considered 'plagarizing' which is kinda bullshit since it doesn't fit the definition as I understand it. I would think it's up to the professor if it isn't specifically in the honor code for the school though.
It's not technically plagiarism. It is, absolutely, a violation of basic academic honesty and any judicial affairs council on any reputable campus would agree with that assessment. Believe me - I've seen this happen in my own classrooms and anytime I check with higher-ups, the chorus is a resounding, "yeah, they can't do that."
Re: Gary's logic: college campuses and "the real world" are rather different in both good and bad ways. Just because you can get away with shit in the real world vs. college (or vice versa) doesn't justify it, especially when there's a very clear code of ethics established in either environment.
Brian: I'd report this d-bag, stat. Since he's a lecturer, I would bet you that the dept hasn't monitored what's been going on at all and they would appreciate knowing that one of their hired guns is trying to fleece students on some bullshit.
Re: Gary's logic: college campuses and "the real world" are rather different in both good and bad ways. Just because you can get away with shit in the real world vs. college (or vice versa) doesn't justify it, especially when there's a very clear code of ethics established in either environment.
Absolutely, but in the professional world that's actually how you're supposed to do it. It's not considered getting away with anything, it's considered the smart way to efficiently produce professional writing that covers all of the elements your particular piece of writing needs to address.
Re: Gary's logic: college campuses and "the real world" are rather different in both good and bad ways. Just because you can get away with shit in the real world vs. college (or vice versa) doesn't justify it, especially when there's a very clear code of ethics established in either environment.
Absolutely, but in the professional world that's actually how you're supposed to do it. It's not considered getting away with anything, it's considered the smart way to efficiently produce professional writing that covers all of the elements your particular piece of writing needs to address.
Perhaps but the assignments are very different. I'm assuming your reports aren't be evaluated for effort, for example.
Sorry, but this isn't a legitimate complaint as you'll find out if you try to pursue it.
First of all, many profs as well as "instructors" (don't hate just because they haven't broken through the tenure track wall) assign works they've authored. Perfectly normal.
Second, even bound photocopied texts, offered by lots of instructors in lieu of a book, can be costly. I spent $90 on one of these when I was an undergrad.. and that was 12 years ago.
If you had concerns about the price of the text (or its contents), you definitely needed to bring that up to him early in the semester. He may have been able to offer you some alternative, i.e. a borrowed copy or info on spots to find used copies. You may have even been able to find out how often the text would be used and if the material would be displayed in class and whether you would've been able to get what you needed from taking copious notes. Always best to discuss issues like this with the instructor as early in the semester as possible, and especially before your course drop deadline comes up.
Finally, did you look into whether a copy was available in your campus library? At Berkeley, instructors are required to keep a copy or two of each text used in a course on reserve in the library so that students can have the option to get the text on loan rather than purchase it. Did your instructor offer this option? If he didn't, well then he deserves a scathing review on ratemyprof. But, even in this case, if you choose to submit an official complaint to the university you'll be fighting a losing battle.
Sorry, but this isn't a legitimate complaint as you'll find out if you try to pursue it.
First of all, many profs as well as "instructors" (don't hate just because they haven't broken through the tenure track wall) assign works they've authored. Perfectly normal.
I'm quite okay with a professor issuing text that they've authored if it's something worthwhile. Like I mentioned earlier, I had a professor who gutted sections of the regular textbook, inserted his lecture notes in the back of the book, offered it for a lower price, and stamped his name on it. I had no problem with that.
Second, even bound photocopied texts, offered by lots of instructors in lieu of a book, can be costly. I spent $90 on one of these when I was an undergrad.. and that was 12 years ago.
There is no way that it would have cost any more than $10 for a photocopied version of the text. In my deep dark past, I used to work at Kinko's and I'm pretty familiar with this. I can think of several other methods of distribution that would be a lot more convenient for the professor and students but none that would make money like a book with someone's name on it.
If you had concerns about the price of the text (or its contents), you definitely needed to bring that up to him early in the semester. He may have been able to offer you some alternative, i.e. a borrowed copy or info on spots to find used copies.
I have no problems with the price of any text as long as it's worthwhile. It's the contents of it and the fact that he's making money off something that's pretty shoddily put together. He made it pretty clear in the syllabus and first lecture that the text was required. He also misled students by mentioning that an online portion of the class was included with the book and while I realized that you could purchase that separately, everyone else was led to believe that you had to buy the book in order to do the online work.
You may have even been able to find out how often the text would be used and if the material would be displayed in class and whether you would've been able to get what you needed from taking copious notes. Always best to discuss issues like this with the instructor as early in the semester as possible, and especially before your course drop deadline comes up.
Am I supposed to second guess every professor that tells me that our books are required and will be used frequently?
Finally, did you look into whether a copy was available in your campus library? At Berkeley, instructors are required to keep a copy or two of each text used in a course on reserve in the library so that students can have the option to get the text on loan rather than purchase it. Did your instructor offer this option?
That was not offered or at least he didn't mention it. I'll check to see if there is one.
If he didn't, well then he deserves a scathing review on ratemyprof. But, even in this case, if you choose to submit an official complaint to the university you'll be fighting a losing battle.
I'm quite okay with a losing battle as long as I've been heard. I won't have to deal with this department after I'm done with this class so it's really nothing.
Thank you for your reply. Definitely raised some things I didn't really think of.
Re: Gary's logic: college campuses and "the real world" are rather different in both good and bad ways. Just because you can get away with shit in the real world vs. college (or vice versa) doesn't justify it, especially when there's a very clear code of ethics established in either environment.
Absolutely, but in the professional world that's actually how you're supposed to do it. It's not considered getting away with anything, it's considered the smart way to efficiently produce professional writing that covers all of the elements your particular piece of writing needs to address.
YEAH!
Even the "effort" argument I don't get, but maybe I'm not understanding the concept here.
If its a different subject then you can't really copy one of your old papers anyways. And if its pretty much the same subject then I don't see the point of doing the same thing twice.
I'm quite okay with a losing battle as long as I've been heard. I won't have to deal with this department after I'm done with this class so it's really nothing.
Hopefully you can also resell that book to recoup at least some of your losses. Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.
I'm quite okay with a losing battle as long as I've been heard. I won't have to deal with this department after I'm done with this class so it's really nothing.
Hopefully you can also resell that book to recoup at least some of your losses. Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.
The bookstore will not buy package deals without everything included and I'm really doubting that I can sell to anyone else. It really isn't about the amount of money, it's more that I actually spent money on it. Thanks though seriously for your posts in this thread.
Cool button in your avatar btw, congratulations if I haven't give them already!
Even the "effort" argument I don't get, but maybe I'm not understanding the concept here..
Gary, when I make an assignment for my students, part of my expectation is that whatever they turn in will be *original*, by which I mean, they started and executed the effort from scratch.
If someone takes a paper they've written before and then resubmits it, it's not original. It subverts the purpose of the assignment, which is to have students go through the steps of researching and writing a paper.
Sorry, but this isn't a legitimate complaint as you'll find out if you try to pursue it.
I disagree. If I were in charge of my department's hiring of lecturers and I found out that someone was having students buy their "textbook" which is just made up of powerpoint slides? That person would definitely NOT get rehired. It probably isn't illegal but it does strike me, at the very least, as lazy and unethical and I wouldn't want someone like that teaching for my department.
Even the "effort" argument I don't get, but maybe I'm not understanding the concept here..
Gary, when I make an assignment for my students, part of my expectation is that whatever they turn in will be *original*, by which I mean, they started and executed the effort from scratch.
If someone takes a paper they've written before and then resubmits it, it's not original. It subverts the purpose of the assignment, which is to have students go through the steps of researching and writing a paper.
I disagree. THey already went through the steps of researching and writing that paper. NOw if its a "pick your own subject" and dude keeps picking the same subject for every class and re-submitting, then yeah, thats messed up. But if you say "write about breakbeatraers" and tony was like "i've already done that so no point in doing it again" then I think its legit.
I disagree. THey already went through the steps of researching and writing that paper.
Not for MY class they didn't! Since when does one get class credit for shit done is someone else's class?
NOw if its a "pick your own subject" and dude keeps picking the same subject for every class and re-submitting, then yeah, thats messed up.
Yeah - that's what I'm talking about. My papers always allow students to pick their own topic and I don't mind if students work on a subject they've researched before. But if they RECYCLE the same paper?
I disagree. THey already went through the steps of researching and writing that paper.
Not for MY class they didn't! Since when does one get class credit for shit done is someone else's class?
NOw if its a "pick your own subject" and dude keeps picking the same subject for every class and re-submitting, then yeah, thats messed up.
Yeah - that's what I'm talking about. My papers always allow students to pick their own topic and I don't mind if students work on a subject they've researched before. But if they RECYCLE the same paper?
Foul ball.
ok, so if i wrote about a certain topic before and now am writing about an offshoot of that topic,im cool? it took me a hella long time to understand the scientific basis of the material in question and its environmental effects. but now id be writing about a specific environmental j ustice issue concerning the already researched material. so there might be some execerpts from the first, when i was detailing the environmental symptoms. but its not like i would be handing in the exact same paper...some new research would be done, it will be work and laearning done regardless.
ive really enjoyed the diversity of opinions on this dilemma. i told one friend, a super go-getting undergraduate. she was like "you have been given a gift..." lol
ok, so if i wrote about a certain topic before and now am writing about an offshoot of that topic,im cool?
It's not a black or white issue but let me put it this way - the two times I caught a student recycling a paper, they pretty much recycled I>the entire paper[/i] which usually meant they also disregarded any different instructions or format my assignment actually called for.
When you do that, you're just f*cking stupid. Period. I could have justified failing them simply because they didn't follow directions properly.
But beyond that, you simply cannot recycle a paper from a past class for a new one. Parts? Sure. 10-20%, I'm willing to look past. But half a paper? We're going to have a sit down. And anything more than that and I'd consider failing the paper and no one - not other faculty, not the university - is going to disagree. You don't get credit for past effort done in another class; I don't know how else to explain it than that.
ok, so if i wrote about a certain topic before and now am writing about an offshoot of that topic,im cool?
It's not a black or white issue but let me put it this way - the two times I caught a student recycling a paper, they pretty much recycled I>the entire paper[/i] which usually meant they also disregarded any different instructions or format my assignment actually called for.
When you do that, you're just f*cking stupid. Period. I could have justified failing them simply because they didn't follow directions properly.
But beyond that, you simply cannot recycle a paper from a past class for a new one. Parts? Sure. 10-20%, I'm willing to look past. But half a paper? We're going to have a sit down. And anything more than that and I'd consider failing the paper and no one - not other faculty, not the university - is going to disagree. You don't get credit for past effort done in another class; I don't know how else to explain it than that.
I've agreed with you up to this point, but here I disagree. This is a black and white issue. Violations of academic honesty are a slippery slope. It's difficult enough as it is to get students to understand why recycling/plagiarizing is unacceptable, without telling them it's okay to re-use 10-20% of a paper. It's all or nothing, as far as what you submit for assignments.
Recycling topics is completely fine. There are many ways to approach the same topic. If you don't understand why re-submitting papers is unacceptable, consider the question: why are you in school, if not to learn? Submitting non-original work does not achieve this. The goal is to acquire and apply new knowledge, not to merely jump through the hoops a professor creates. Like Big Stacks suggests, there's a growing expectation in higher education that students are paying for a piece of paper, a degree, not a quality education. Check out "Our Underachieving Colleges" by Bok.
(admittedly I am, like other posters, invested in academia. I've taught undergrad/grad level for 3 years, and am going back for my Ph.D in the fall. So take my opinion with a grain of salt - it is, however, the general opinion of most universities)
Between you and I - as fellow educators - I'll admit to the slippery slope. But would I tell my students that? Hell no. I give them a fear-of-god speech every semester to let them know - this is what plagiarism (including recycling papers) looks like, this is why you don't want to do it (because I will fail you).
But if someone turns in a paper to me and there's 15% hit on it with a previous paper - maybe he/she recycled part of an introduction they did - I'm not about to bring out the heavy guns and start firing. It's just not worth the hassle. I reserve the nuclear option for worst case offenses - like the idiots who buy a paper from a paper mill and try to pass it off as their own when it's painfully obvious it's not their paper. In that case, not only do I fail them, I report them to the campus so they now have a file with student affairs in case they try to pull this shit off again.
Like Big Stacks suggests, there's a growing expectation in higher education that students are paying for a piece of paper, a degree, not a quality education.
That's all I bought with my money. I learned stuff, but the reason I got a computer programming degree is not because I have a passion for computer programming. I wanted that peice of paper so I could get a JOB.
In the workforce, most well paying jobs require a degree. So if you want money, you have to get a degree. I would say that 90% of people in college right now are there to get their degree so they can get a good job. People that care about learning and education and not money gets degrees in the arts and shit and wind up with jobs teaching because you can't make money as an anthropologist in the "real world". not too many openings on rotten.com for "ethnomusicologist" right about now I would imagine.
So yeah, when I took that accounting class its not because I wanted to learn accounting, its because I HAD to take it to get my degree. I would have paid somebody to take my tests if I could have. So its no disrespect, but I didn't make the rules and the rules say I have to go to college to get a good job, so I did, but no, I didn't really care about Chinese Art History.
in a way, i wouldnt be there if it wasnt for tuitin benefits and the chanec at getting the credentials.
that being said...i haev had great courses that have pushed me to excel and challenge myself. i have 3 courses this semester (in order to hurry along the process of getting that degree, while i still got benefits). 2 are well taught, engrossing courses that are pushing my academic envelope.
the other is taught by two non-professors who didnt even bother to update the syllabus for the course they have taught the last three years. it doesnt even have dates on it. they never reference readings in class...like one of my classmates said, its just anecdotes and indignation. a lot of condescending prattle w little substance. still i take copious notes, dont miss a class and do my readings (aka twenty links they provide each week to various government websites).
i think reusing some previously done research could be compared to not reading all the course readings, but skimming the majority. sure, i should have taken the time to read everything thoughtfully in detail...
and in the end, integrity is important to me and everything that has been said has been valid, so i'm still on the fence about this. i'll just have to see how i'm feeling once i embark on the work
Like Big Stacks suggests, there's a growing expectation in higher education that students are paying for a piece of paper, a degree, not a quality education.
That's all I bought with my money. I learned stuff, but the reason I got a computer programming degree is not because I have a passion for computer programming. I wanted that peice of paper so I could get a JOB.
In the workforce, most well paying jobs require a degree. So if you want money, you have to get a degree. I would say that 90% of people in college right now are there to get their degree so they can get a good job. People that care about learning and education and not money gets degrees in the arts and shit and wind up with jobs teaching because you can't make money as an anthropologist in the "real world". not too many openings on rotten.com for "ethnomusicologist" right about now I would imagine.
So yeah, when I took that accounting class its not because I wanted to learn accounting, its because I HAD to take it to get my degree. I would have paid somebody to take my tests if I could have. So its no disrespect, but I didn't make the rules and the rules say I have to go to college to get a good job, so I did, but no, I didn't really care about Chinese Art History.
What Gary is describing is the differences between college as a space for "higher learning" and college as "trade school by a different name."
I think the latter is fine - I teach at a large public university and many of the students who are coming through here are seeing their degree as a stepping stone towards "something else." I may not be crazy about it but F*ck it, it's their lives and if that's how they want to play it, I can't force them to think differently (though I may try to encourage it).
But dude, you can miss me with this bullshit about the impracticality - or, as you seem to imply, the lack of worth - of a liberal arts education. Look at the current economy right now - I know plenty of people in many different occupations getting laid off, not just those who got there vis a vis an English or history degree.
And three colleagues I know all got jobs this year to teach ethnomusicology or music. Provided, the academic job market, in general, is a disaster right now (like practically every job market) but you don't really know what you're talking about when you're saying there's no jobs out there for people who study "Chinese Art History." I know of at least three families that are about to land some financial security thanks to careers in liberal arts fields.
This comment, in particular, is offensively ignorant (but I know how you do so I don't take it personal):
"I would say that 90% of people in college right now are there to get their degree so they can get a good job. People that care about learning and education and not money gets degrees in the arts and shit and wind up with jobs teaching because you can't make money as an anthropologist in the "real world".
Seriously, you're just firing in the dark. If "90% of people in college want degrees to get good jobs," how come the liberal arts colleges/divisions of universities always have the highest enrollment? How come not everyone's out trying to get degrees in accounting and computer science and engineering?
And seriously, how many anthropologists do you know in the real world? I don't know of any that are out of work.
i'm 100% supporter of a liberal arts education for the sake of education.
i studied history undergrad and it changed my life. i love when people ask "what are you going to do with that degree??" stick it on my f*ckin shelf and be happy that i have a better understanding of the world!
Between you and I - as fellow educators - I'll admit to the slippery slope. But would I tell my students that? Hell no. I give them a fear-of-god speech every semester to let them know - this is what plagiarism (including recycling papers) looks like, this is why you don't want to do it (because I will fail you).
But if someone turns in a paper to me and there's 15% hit on it with a previous paper - maybe he/she recycled part of an introduction they did - I'm not about to bring out the heavy guns and start firing. It's just not worth the hassle. I reserve the nuclear option for worst case offenses - like the idiots who buy a paper from a paper mill and try to pass it off as their own when it's painfully obvious it's not their paper. In that case, not only do I fail them, I report them to the campus so they now have a file with student affairs in case they try to pull this shit off again.
Between us, I completely see what you're saying. I would not turn in a student to the university for a minor academia honesty violation that you describe. For one thing, where I am, it means an automatic F in the course and a student review. It's not that it's not worth the hassle, it's that a shocking number of students simply do not understand what are reasonable expectations for students (check out the chronicle.com forums). Still, I would have a talk with them, even if they just re-used an introductory paragraph, and made sure they understood that it was a violation and essentially they're cheating themselves out of a learning experience.
Like Big Stacks suggests, there's a growing expectation in higher education that students are paying for a piece of paper, a degree, not a quality education.
That's all I bought with my money. I learned stuff, but the reason I got a computer programming degree is not because I have a passion for computer programming. I wanted that peice of paper so I could get a JOB.
In the workforce, most well paying jobs require a degree. So if you want money, you have to get a degree. I would say that 90% of people in college right now are there to get their degree so they can get a good job. People that care about learning and education and not money gets degrees in the arts and shit and wind up with jobs teaching because you can't make money as an anthropologist in the "real world". not too many openings on rotten.com for "ethnomusicologist" right about now I would imagine.
I'm aware of how higher ed works. There are grad programs in business, and I'm not suggesting everybody be an ethnomusicologist. That is not the only role of grad programs. FYI, I've mainly taught applied skills courses which have immediate and tangible value in industry. Applied courses still involve learning "stuff" which help with the job "stuff."
I think you're looking at this backwards. Sure, you're aiming to get a better job - that is common. But why do you think jobs require a degree at all? What does it mean?
I would argue that a degree is required for jobs because it shows you've attained a certain level of education (learning). If students start to circumvent the system, or are not ready to learn in a grad program, the value of a degree declines. In fact, it's already started to - a B.A. doesn't get you very far, and there's rampant grade inflation in M.A. programs. Professors and institutions are not immune from criticism either, so I'm not exclusively blaming students. But I really invite you revisit your perspective. The "I am buying a degree" perspective is really hurting academia at large, and probably, on a more local level, what you personally get out of a grad program.
Also, I think the US should put more resources into developing more and better trade schools. I don't think every American needs to go to college - it's an unrealistic expectation and puts impossible burdens on an infrastructure that can't really accommodate it. So-called blue collar professions have taken a massive hit - both in terms of changes to the industrial economy as well as in the public imagination - but for generations, you could live a solidly middle class life on a "working class" income. (Of course, stuff like the GI Bill and FHA loans helped too)
Lefty: I totally agree that there is a huge problem with "trade" positions versus the traditional role of 4-year small liberal arts colleges (SLACs). Community colleges should be for "trade" positions. Yet, SLACs are drawn into more applied perspectives, because they're grooming students for specific industry positions. For one reason, there's money in it, and as Gary underscores, it's what students expect. Unfortunately SLACs are not very good at keeping up with industry, especially when it changes so quickly. Personally I feel an applied model ultimately doesn't give students many options as far as job prospects go.
Also, I think the US should put more resources into developing more and better trade schools. I don't think every American needs to go to college - it's an unrealistic expectation and puts impossible burdens on an infrastructure that can't really accommodate it. So-called blue collar professions have taken a massive hit - both in terms of changes to the industrial economy as well as in the public imagination - but for generations, you could live a solidly middle class life on a "working class" income. (Of course, stuff like the GI Bill and FHA loans helped too)
gigantic
i worked in an extremely low performing high school the last five years where they beat into the students' heads "you must go to college". if you ask any kid what he wants to do after graduation its, "i dunno. go to college." meanwhile, 50% of incoming freshmen actually graduate. i ran a culinary/nutrition/foodjustice/jobreadiness program during school and after school and we enjoyed great success, which i felt was especially due to the relevance and vocational nature of what we offered
Comments
Co-sign. I'd do the exact same thing Stacks would do. It's not so much that you're plagiarizing from yourself but you're not turning in "original material" either. At the very least, you'd be subverting the whole point of the assignment and that alone would earn it an "F."
By the way TripDubs...plagiarism software exists partially to catch examples like you just laid out. I wouldn't risk it, son!
It's not technically plagiarism. It is, absolutely, a violation of basic academic honesty and any judicial affairs council on any reputable campus would agree with that assessment. Believe me - I've seen this happen in my own classrooms and anytime I check with higher-ups, the chorus is a resounding, "yeah, they can't do that."
Re: Gary's logic: college campuses and "the real world" are rather different in both good and bad ways. Just because you can get away with shit in the real world vs. college (or vice versa) doesn't justify it, especially when there's a very clear code of ethics established in either environment.
My bet is that he doesn't get hired again.
Absolutely, but in the professional world that's actually how you're supposed to do it. It's not considered getting away with anything, it's considered the smart way to efficiently produce professional writing that covers all of the elements your particular piece of writing needs to address.
Perhaps but the assignments are very different. I'm assuming your reports aren't be evaluated for effort, for example.
First of all, many profs as well as "instructors" (don't hate just because they haven't broken through the tenure track wall) assign works they've authored. Perfectly normal.
Second, even bound photocopied texts, offered by lots of instructors in lieu of a book, can be costly. I spent $90 on one of these when I was an undergrad.. and that was 12 years ago.
If you had concerns about the price of the text (or its contents), you definitely needed to bring that up to him early in the semester. He may have been able to offer you some alternative, i.e. a borrowed copy or info on spots to find used copies. You may have even been able to find out how often the text would be used and if the material would be displayed in class and whether you would've been able to get what you needed from taking copious notes. Always best to discuss issues like this with the instructor as early in the semester as possible, and especially before your course drop deadline comes up.
Finally, did you look into whether a copy was available in your campus library? At Berkeley, instructors are required to keep a copy or two of each text used in a course on reserve in the library so that students can have the option to get the text on loan rather than purchase it. Did your instructor offer this option? If he didn't, well then he deserves a scathing review on ratemyprof. But, even in this case, if you choose to submit an official complaint to the university you'll be fighting a losing battle.
There is no way that it would have cost any more than $10 for a photocopied version of the text. In my deep dark past, I used to work at Kinko's and I'm pretty familiar with this. I can think of several other methods of distribution that would be a lot more convenient for the professor and students but none that would make money like a book with someone's name on it.
I have no problems with the price of any text as long as it's worthwhile. It's the contents of it and the fact that he's making money off something that's pretty shoddily put together. He made it pretty clear in the syllabus and first lecture that the text was required. He also misled students by mentioning that an online portion of the class was included with the book and while I realized that you could purchase that separately, everyone else was led to believe that you had to buy the book in order to do the online work.
Am I supposed to second guess every professor that tells me that our books are required and will be used frequently?
That was not offered or at least he didn't mention it. I'll check to see if there is one.
I'm quite okay with a losing battle as long as I've been heard. I won't have to deal with this department after I'm done with this class so it's really nothing.
Thank you for your reply. Definitely raised some things I didn't really think of.
YEAH!
Even the "effort" argument I don't get, but maybe I'm not understanding the concept here.
If its a different subject then you can't really copy one of your old papers anyways. And if its pretty much the same subject then I don't see the point of doing the same thing twice.
I might need an example from Tony or Stacks.
Hopefully you can also resell that book to recoup at least some of your losses. Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.
The bookstore will not buy package deals without everything included and I'm really doubting that I can sell to anyone else. It really isn't about the amount of money, it's more that I actually spent money on it. Thanks though seriously for your posts in this thread.
Cool button in your avatar btw, congratulations if I haven't give them already!
Gary, when I make an assignment for my students, part of my expectation is that whatever they turn in will be *original*, by which I mean, they started and executed the effort from scratch.
If someone takes a paper they've written before and then resubmits it, it's not original. It subverts the purpose of the assignment, which is to have students go through the steps of researching and writing a paper.
I disagree. If I were in charge of my department's hiring of lecturers and I found out that someone was having students buy their "textbook" which is just made up of powerpoint slides? That person would definitely NOT get rehired. It probably isn't illegal but it does strike me, at the very least, as lazy and unethical and I wouldn't want someone like that teaching for my department.
I disagree. THey already went through the steps of researching and writing that paper. NOw if its a "pick your own subject" and dude keeps picking the same subject for every class and re-submitting, then yeah, thats messed up. But if you say "write about breakbeatraers" and tony was like "i've already done that so no point in doing it again" then I think its legit.
Not for MY class they didn't! Since when does one get class credit for shit done is someone else's class?
Yeah - that's what I'm talking about. My papers always allow students to pick their own topic and I don't mind if students work on a subject they've researched before. But if they RECYCLE the same paper?
Foul ball.
ok, so if i wrote about a certain topic before and now am writing about an offshoot of that topic,im cool? it took me a hella long time to understand the scientific basis of the material in question and its environmental effects. but now id be writing about a specific environmental j ustice issue concerning the already researched material. so there might be some execerpts from the first, when i was detailing the environmental symptoms. but its not like i would be handing in the exact same paper...some new research would be done, it will be work and laearning done regardless.
ive really enjoyed the diversity of opinions on this dilemma. i told one friend, a super go-getting undergraduate. she was like "you have been given a gift..." lol
It's not a black or white issue but let me put it this way - the two times I caught a student recycling a paper, they pretty much recycled I>the entire paper[/i] which usually meant they also disregarded any different instructions or format my assignment actually called for.
When you do that, you're just f*cking stupid. Period. I could have justified failing them simply because they didn't follow directions properly.
But beyond that, you simply cannot recycle a paper from a past class for a new one. Parts? Sure. 10-20%, I'm willing to look past. But half a paper? We're going to have a sit down. And anything more than that and I'd consider failing the paper and no one - not other faculty, not the university - is going to disagree. You don't get credit for past effort done in another class; I don't know how else to explain it than that.
what do you teach,lefty?
I've agreed with you up to this point, but here I disagree. This is a black and white issue. Violations of academic honesty are a slippery slope. It's difficult enough as it is to get students to understand why recycling/plagiarizing is unacceptable, without telling them it's okay to re-use 10-20% of a paper. It's all or nothing, as far as what you submit for assignments.
Recycling topics is completely fine. There are many ways to approach the same topic. If you don't understand why re-submitting papers is unacceptable, consider the question: why are you in school, if not to learn? Submitting non-original work does not achieve this. The goal is to acquire and apply new knowledge, not to merely jump through the hoops a professor creates. Like Big Stacks suggests, there's a growing expectation in higher education that students are paying for a piece of paper, a degree, not a quality education. Check out "Our Underachieving Colleges" by Bok.
(admittedly I am, like other posters, invested in academia. I've taught undergrad/grad level for 3 years, and am going back for my Ph.D in the fall. So take my opinion with a grain of salt - it is, however, the general opinion of most universities)
Between you and I - as fellow educators - I'll admit to the slippery slope. But would I tell my students that? Hell no. I give them a fear-of-god speech every semester to let them know - this is what plagiarism (including recycling papers) looks like, this is why you don't want to do it (because I will fail you).
But if someone turns in a paper to me and there's 15% hit on it with a previous paper - maybe he/she recycled part of an introduction they did - I'm not about to bring out the heavy guns and start firing. It's just not worth the hassle. I reserve the nuclear option for worst case offenses - like the idiots who buy a paper from a paper mill and try to pass it off as their own when it's painfully obvious it's not their paper. In that case, not only do I fail them, I report them to the campus so they now have a file with student affairs in case they try to pull this shit off again.
That's all I bought with my money. I learned stuff, but the reason I got a computer programming degree is not because I have a passion for computer programming. I wanted that peice of paper so I could get a JOB.
In the workforce, most well paying jobs require a degree. So if you want money, you have to get a degree. I would say that 90% of people in college right now are there to get their degree so they can get a good job. People that care about learning and education and not money gets degrees in the arts and shit and wind up with jobs teaching because you can't make money as an anthropologist in the "real world". not too many openings on rotten.com for "ethnomusicologist" right about now I would imagine.
So yeah, when I took that accounting class its not because I wanted to learn accounting, its because I HAD to take it to get my degree. I would have paid somebody to take my tests if I could have. So its no disrespect, but I didn't make the rules and the rules say I have to go to college to get a good job, so I did, but no, I didn't really care about Chinese Art History.
that being said...i haev had great courses that have pushed me to excel and challenge myself. i have 3 courses this semester (in order to hurry along the process of getting that degree, while i still got benefits). 2 are well taught, engrossing courses that are pushing my academic envelope.
the other is taught by two non-professors who didnt even bother to update the syllabus for the course they have taught the last three years. it doesnt even have dates on it. they never reference readings in class...like one of my classmates said, its just anecdotes and indignation. a lot of condescending prattle w little substance.
still i take copious notes, dont miss a class and do my readings (aka twenty links they provide each week to various government websites).
i think reusing some previously done research could be compared to not reading all the course readings, but skimming the majority. sure, i should have taken the time to read everything thoughtfully in detail...
and in the end, integrity is important to me and everything that has been said has been valid, so i'm still on the fence about this. i'll just have to see how i'm feeling once i embark on the work
What Gary is describing is the differences between college as a space for "higher learning" and college as "trade school by a different name."
I think the latter is fine - I teach at a large public university and many of the students who are coming through here are seeing their degree as a stepping stone towards "something else." I may not be crazy about it but F*ck it, it's their lives and if that's how they want to play it, I can't force them to think differently (though I may try to encourage it).
But dude, you can miss me with this bullshit about the impracticality - or, as you seem to imply, the lack of worth - of a liberal arts education. Look at the current economy right now - I know plenty of people in many different occupations getting laid off, not just those who got there vis a vis an English or history degree.
And three colleagues I know all got jobs this year to teach ethnomusicology or music. Provided, the academic job market, in general, is a disaster right now (like practically every job market) but you don't really know what you're talking about when you're saying there's no jobs out there for people who study "Chinese Art History." I know of at least three families that are about to land some financial security thanks to careers in liberal arts fields.
This comment, in particular, is offensively ignorant (but I know how you do so I don't take it personal):
"I would say that 90% of people in college right now are there to get their degree so they can get a good job. People that care about learning and education and not money gets degrees in the arts and shit and wind up with jobs teaching because you can't make money as an anthropologist in the "real world".
Seriously, you're just firing in the dark. If "90% of people in college want degrees to get good jobs," how come the liberal arts colleges/divisions of universities always have the highest enrollment? How come not everyone's out trying to get degrees in accounting and computer science and engineering?
And seriously, how many anthropologists do you know in the real world? I don't know of any that are out of work.
i studied history undergrad and it changed my life.
i love when people ask "what are you going to do with that degree??" stick it on my f*ckin shelf and be happy that i have a better understanding of the world!
Between us, I completely see what you're saying. I would not turn in a student to the university for a minor academia honesty violation that you describe. For one thing, where I am, it means an automatic F in the course and a student review. It's not that it's not worth the hassle, it's that a shocking number of students simply do not understand what are reasonable expectations for students (check out the chronicle.com forums). Still, I would have a talk with them, even if they just re-used an introductory paragraph, and made sure they understood that it was a violation and essentially they're cheating themselves out of a learning experience.
I'm aware of how higher ed works. There are grad programs in business, and I'm not suggesting everybody be an ethnomusicologist. That is not the only role of grad programs. FYI, I've mainly taught applied skills courses which have immediate and tangible value in industry. Applied courses still involve learning "stuff" which help with the job "stuff."
I think you're looking at this backwards. Sure, you're aiming to get a better job - that is common. But why do you think jobs require a degree at all? What does it mean?
I would argue that a degree is required for jobs because it shows you've attained a certain level of education (learning). If students start to circumvent the system, or are not ready to learn in a grad program, the value of a degree declines. In fact, it's already started to - a B.A. doesn't get you very far, and there's rampant grade inflation in M.A. programs. Professors and institutions are not immune from criticism either, so I'm not exclusively blaming students. But I really invite you revisit your perspective. The "I am buying a degree" perspective is really hurting academia at large, and probably, on a more local level, what you personally get out of a grad program.
gigantic
i worked in an extremely low performing high school the last five years where they beat into the students' heads "you must go to college". if you ask any kid what he wants to do after graduation its, "i dunno. go to college."
meanwhile, 50% of incoming freshmen actually graduate.
i ran a culinary/nutrition/foodjustice/jobreadiness program during school and after school and we enjoyed great success, which i felt was especially due to the relevance and vocational nature of what we offered