Quote:h, 21b, 21that's always been one of my favorite things about SF: the millionaires are forced to interact with people living on the streets. Their street, even.b, 21b, 21 b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Yeah. It must be nice for you to see a millionaire once in a while.
Quote:h, 21b, 21that's always been one of my favorite things about SF: the millionaires are forced to interact with people living on the streets. Their street, even.b, 21b, 21LOL at what passes for a "reporter" these days...b, 21b, 21war correspondants from the front lines, this dude's never been to San Francisco. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21But that's my point. They're NOT forced to interact with people living on the streets. The actual degree of inter-class contact has steadily disappeared over the last 20 years (in most cities, but especially S.F.) as populations homogenize. The toniest parts of S.F. are I>completely/i1 cut off from the rest of city's population: St. Francis Woods, Pac Heights, even Snowy, er, I mean Noe Valley and Cole Valley. I'm not suggesting SF is like Blackhawk or some shit, but there's a good degree of social isolation throughout SF's neighborhoods. Having lived in the Sunset, me and my family rarely went east of the Upper Haight (except to go to the Groove Merchant) and the Avenues were certainly homogenous, class-wise. b, 21b, 21Muni, arguably, is the great equalizer (as public transit often is) but it's not exactly the most ideal point of contact.
Quote:h, 21b, 21that's always been one of my favorite things about SF: the millionaires are forced to interact with people living on the streets. Their street, even.b, 21b, 21LOL at what passes for a "reporter" these days...b, 21b, 21war correspondants from the front lines, this dude's never been to San Francisco. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21But that's my point. They're NOT forced to interact with people living on the streets. The actual degree of inter-class contact has steadily disappeared over the last 20 years (in most cities, but especially S.F.) as populations homogenize. The toniest parts of S.F. are I>completely/i1 cut off from the rest of city's population: St. Francis Woods, Pac Heights, even Snowy, er, I mean Noe Valley and Cole Valley. I'm not suggesting SF is like Blackhawk or some shit, but there's a good degree of social isolation throughout SF's neighborhoods. Having lived in the Sunset, me and my family rarely went east of the Upper Haight (except to go to the Groove Merchant) and the Avenues were certainly homogenous, class-wise. b, 21b, 21Muni, arguably, is the great equalizer (as public transit often is) but it's not exactly the most ideal point of contact. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Muni perhaps, but BART enabled the further distilation by shifting a large part of the cities poor and minorities to Oakland. No?
Quote:h, 21b, 21e. I think San Francisco's shittiness is just more evenly dispersed.b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21I don't see that at all. SF has a fairly high degree of segregation, even if the dividing lines are often a single street. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21That's exactly what I'm talking about though, when you have one STREET that's shitty and the STREET next to it that's not, versus, let's say if the mission were the nice area and the haight were the shitty area; they're a large distance from one another. I live in upper haight and for the most part it's a nice area, but once you get on haight street itself it's shitty. But, walk south two blocks and you're in cole valley or ashbury heights (one of the richer areas of SF). Then, like Valencia st. that's nice, and Mission st.(a block down) that's shitty. Maybe, evenly dispersed was the incorrect term. Basically, what I'm saying is the shitty areas are right up against the nice areas so tourists and "correspondents" actually see that; versus having to trek far away from the touristy or nicer areas to see some grime.b, 21b, 21I'm not trying to say SF is some wonderful magical place, I'm just saying that O'Reilly's coming at it with a specific intent - to make it look fucked up. Yes, it is fucked up, but I don't think it's as bad as he would like everyone to believe.
Quote:h, 21b, 21But that's my point. They're NOT forced to interact with people living on the streets. The actual degree of inter-class contact has steadily disappeared over the last 20 years (in most cities, but especially S.F.) as populations homogenize. The toniest parts of S.F. are I>completely/i1 cut off from the rest of city's population: St. Francis Woods, Pac Heights, even Snowy, er, I mean Noe Valley and Cole Valley. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21LOL at Noe Valley being "tony" or somehow "cut off from the rest of the city's population. Now you're just disconnected from the street[i]maps/i1. It's not rough by any stretch, but I live there and we have two biker bars (with plenty of Red and White and supporters), kids from Hunter's Point and Bayview who go to James Lick Middle, and 24th and Mission Bart a short 48 busride away. I catch the 24 Divisadero one block from our place and all kinds of folks ride that bus. I also saw 3 high school girls bumrush and stomp out a guy in his early 40s on the J Church once, right at 24th and Church. b, 21b, 21Is it a relatively safe neighborhood with a higher-than-average number of strollers? Absolutely. But it's far from cut off.
yeah, maybe I'm basing my comments on my visits in the mid-90s... b, 21b, 21I'm in Seattle too, which is very segregated. Melting Pot is just a restaurant up here. (tm)
Quote:h, 21b, 21I also saw 3 high school girls bumrush and stomp out a guy in his early 40s on the J Church once, right at 24th and Church. b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21perhaps not the best example to use?b, 21b, 21Why do these discussions always degrade into pissing contests of which neighborhoods/cities/countries are the baddest?b, 21b, 21I'm so hood!!!
Quote:h, 21b, 21I also saw 3 high school girls bumrush and stomp out a guy in his early 40s on the J Church once, right at 24th and Church. b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21perhaps not the best example to use?b, 21b, 21Why do these discussions always degrade into pissing contests of which neighborhoods/cities/countries are the baddest?b, 21b, 21I'm so hood!!! b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Because they are so not.
Quote:h, 21b, 21I also saw 3 high school girls bumrush and stomp out a guy in his early 40s on the J Church once, right at 24th and Church. b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21perhaps not the best example to use?b, 21b, 21Why do these discussions always degrade into pissing contests of which neighborhoods/cities/countries are the baddest?b, 21b, 21I'm so hood!!! b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Dude, re-read my post. I never said it was a bad neighborhood--in fact, I said the exact opposite. The point I was refuting is that it is somehow cut off from the rest of the city.b, 21b, 21And Saba's the one talking up his time in the Tenderloin.
Quote:h, 21b, 21Yeah, I must be rich since I live in Cole Valley..LMAO!!!! b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21It was my err to compare Cole and Noe with Pac Heights but on the scale of "nice" to "grimy", Cole Valley isn't very close to the latter. b, 21b, 21And I know NOe is where Hogg lives but Catholic School girls gone wild aside, Noe is like a less cluttered (and less gay) version of the Castro. Go a few steps further sanitized and you'd get West Portal. But yes, Noe isn't St. Francis Woods either. I should been more clear about that. I still had the impression the neighborhood itself was rather homogenous but I never lived in Noe so I can't say.
Quote:h, 21b, 21that's always been one of my favorite things about SF: the millionaires are forced to interact with people living on the streets. Their street, even.b, 21b, 21LOL at what passes for a "reporter" these days...b, 21b, 21war correspondants from the front lines, this dude's never been to San Francisco. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21But that's my point. They're NOT forced to interact with people living on the streets. The actual degree of inter-class contact has steadily disappeared over the last 20 years (in most cities, but especially S.F.) as populations homogenize. The toniest parts of S.F. are I>completely/i1 cut off from the rest of city's population: St. Francis Woods, Pac Heights, even Snowy, er, I mean Noe Valley and Cole Valley. I'm not suggesting SF is like Blackhawk or some shit, but there's a good degree of social isolation throughout SF's neighborhoods. Having lived in the Sunset, me and my family rarely went east of the Upper Haight (except to go to the Groove Merchant) and the Avenues were certainly homogenous, class-wise. b, 21b, 21Muni, arguably, is the great equalizer (as public transit often is) but it's not exactly the most ideal point of contact. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Muni perhaps, but BART enabled the further distilation by shifting a large part of the cities poor and minorities to Oakland. No? b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21No BART facilitated the white middle class' flow out to the suburbs and away from Oakland and to a lesser extent SF. Not to mention it destroyed the black business district and displaced black home owners in Oakland while it was being built.
Quote:h, 21b, 21e. I think San Francisco's shittiness is just more evenly dispersed.b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21I don't see that at all. SF has a fairly high degree of segregation, even if the dividing lines are often a single street. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21That's exactly what I'm talking about though, when you have one STREET that's shitty and the STREET next to it that's not, versus, let's say if the mission were the nice area and the haight were the shitty area; they're a large distance from one another. I live in upper haight and for the most part it's a nice area, but once you get on haight street itself it's shitty. But, walk south two blocks and you're in cole valley or ashbury heights (one of the richer areas of SF). Then, like Valencia st. that's nice, and Mission st.(a block down) that's shitty. Maybe, evenly dispersed was the incorrect term. Basically, what I'm saying is the shitty areas are right up against the nice areas so tourists and "correspondents" actually see that; versus having to trek far away from the touristy or nicer areas to see some grime.b, 21b, 21I'm not trying to say SF is some wonderful magical place, I'm just saying that O'Reilly's coming at it with a specific intent - to make it look fucked up. Yes, it is fucked up, but I don't think it's as bad as he would like everyone to believe. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Well, that goes without saying. O'Reilly's an idiot. b, 21b, 21But the thing that makes SF different is that it's so compact. So whereas, in other cities, you'd have to "trek far away to see some grime" that's hard to apply in a city that's basically 50 square miles. Everything is crammed up next to one another but the separations pattern class segregation in other places, just on a smaller scale.
Quote:h, 21b, 21And I know NOe is where Hogg lives but Catholic School girls gone wild aside, Noe is like a less cluttered (and less gay) version of the Castro. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 211) James Lick is a public school.b, 21b, 212) Of the six people that live in my building, my wife and I are the only non-gays. Your mileage may vary.
Quote:h, 21b, 21that's always been one of my favorite things about SF: the millionaires are forced to interact with people living on the streets. Their street, even.b, 21b, 21LOL at what passes for a "reporter" these days...b, 21b, 21war correspondants from the front lines, this dude's never been to San Francisco. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21But that's my point. They're NOT forced to interact with people living on the streets. The actual degree of inter-class contact has steadily disappeared over the last 20 years (in most cities, but especially S.F.) as populations homogenize. The toniest parts of S.F. are I>completely/i1 cut off from the rest of city's population: St. Francis Woods, Pac Heights, even Snowy, er, I mean Noe Valley and Cole Valley. I'm not suggesting SF is like Blackhawk or some shit, but there's a good degree of social isolation throughout SF's neighborhoods. Having lived in the Sunset, me and my family rarely went east of the Upper Haight (except to go to the Groove Merchant) and the Avenues were certainly homogenous, class-wise. b, 21b, 21Muni, arguably, is the great equalizer (as public transit often is) but it's not exactly the most ideal point of contact. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Muni perhaps, but BART enabled the further distilation by shifting a large part of the cities poor and minorities to Oakland. No? b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21No BART facilitated the white middle class' flow out to the suburbs and away from Oakland and to a lesser extent SF. Not to mention it destroyed the black business district and displaced black home owners in Oakland while it was being built. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Moreover, BART and MUNI serve very different purposes as far as public transit goes. BART is a commuter line, first and foremost. It's for the good of suburban dwellers who work in the city but you don't use it to travel IN the city.
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21But the thing that makes SF different is that it's so compact. So whereas, in other cities, you'd have to "trek far away to see some grime" that's hard to apply in a city that's basically 50 square miles. Everything is crammed up next to one another but the separations pattern class segregation in other places, just on a smaller scale. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I'm not really seeing this. Despite having less demarcated boundaries between good and bad hoods, SF is certainly quite segregated, spatially. Having stubbornly violent pockets of poverty surrounded by upwardly mobile communities and new condo construction just doesn't pass for diversity. More specifically, the fact that you can still get shot on certain block-long stretches of it doesn't mean the Fillmore is going to come back as a thriving African American neighborhood. Or that anyone who moved to SF in the last 10 years can even find Hunters Point on a map. In fact for my money, San Franciscans are a lot LESS likely to interact in any meaningful way with someone from the "other" side of town than most major cities I've traveled through. I would characterize the city currently less as a jumble of class-segregated neighbors and more as enjoying a brief respite in an ongoing attempt to completely gentrify the central part of the city. You may be able to "see some grime" without trekking the distance from Greenwich Village to Brownsville, but that's not for The City's lack of trying.
Quote:h, 21b, 21 BART is a commuter line, first and foremost. It's for the good of suburban dwellers who work in the city but you don't use it to travel IN the city. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I do, just like many others who live in the Mission or try to get there. In fact, I prefer BART over Muni for any of the 4 underground market st stations. God, Muni is the freaking worst
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21But the thing that makes SF different is that it's so compact. So whereas, in other cities, you'd have to "trek far away to see some grime" that's hard to apply in a city that's basically 50 square miles. Everything is crammed up next to one another but the separations pattern class segregation in other places, just on a smaller scale. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I'm not really seeing this. Despite having less demarcated boundaries between good and bad hoods, SF is certainly quite segregated, spatially. Having stubbornly violent pockets of poverty surrounded by upwardly mobile communities and new condo construction just doesn't pass for diversity. More specifically, the fact that you can still get shot on certain block-long stretches of it doesn't mean the Fillmore is going to come back as a thriving African American neighborhood. Or that anyone who moved to SF in the last 10 years can even find Hunters Point on a map. In fact for my money, San Franciscans are a lot LESS likely to interact in any meaningful way with someone from the "other" side of town than most major cities I've traveled through. I would characterize the city currently less as a jumble of class-segregated neighbors and more as enjoying a brief respite in an ongoing attempt to completely gentrify the central part of the city. You may be able to "see some grime" without trekking the distance from Greenwich Village to Brownsville, but that's not for The City's lack of trying. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Yeah dude, we're agreeing. My whole point is that SF's segregation "looks" different to some folks simply b/c it's a block by block but that's because SF is a small-ass city vs., say, Chicago where the segregated neighborhoods sprawl out. But the actual level of interaction - as you're suggesting - is very low outside a few, choice areas.
Quote:h, 21b, 21that's always been one of my favorite things about SF: the millionaires are forced to interact with people living on the streets. Their street, even.b, 21b, 21LOL at what passes for a "reporter" these days...b, 21b, 21war correspondants from the front lines, this dude's never been to San Francisco. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21But that's my point. They're NOT forced to interact with people living on the streets. The actual degree of inter-class contact has steadily disappeared over the last 20 years (in most cities, but especially S.F.) as populations homogenize. The toniest parts of S.F. are I>completely/i1 cut off from the rest of city's population: St. Francis Woods, Pac Heights, even Snowy, er, I mean Noe Valley and Cole Valley. I'm not suggesting SF is like Blackhawk or some shit, but there's a good degree of social isolation throughout SF's neighborhoods. Having lived in the Sunset, me and my family rarely went east of the Upper Haight (except to go to the Groove Merchant) and the Avenues were certainly homogenous, class-wise. b, 21b, 21Muni, arguably, is the great equalizer (as public transit often is) but it's not exactly the most ideal point of contact. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Muni perhaps, but BART enabled the further distilation by shifting a large part of the cities poor and minorities to Oakland. No? b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21It's plausible but I would have to see a study to believe this.
Quote:h, 21b, 21LOL I could walk downtown quicker than taking the J Church. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Yeah I walk a lot & ride my bike. If I can't sometimes i'd rather pay $20 for a cab than dealing with slow ass muni lines, especially the 38 (Dirty 8) Geary. Living in the Outer Richmond when I first moved here sucked so bad. It would take an hour to get downtown on that line
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Murder happens in all areas. There's a blog at claycord.com that focuses on the Concord/Clayton area of the East Bay and from all the crime you read about you'd think it's the worst place in the world. While far from perfect it's actually quite a nice city.b, 21b, 21I can't say I've always felt safe walking around SF but like the woman in the video says you stick to your routes and avoid certain places. That's not unique to SF. That's a fact of city life.
Quote:h, 21b, 21that's always been one of my favorite things about SF: the millionaires are forced to interact with people living on the streets. Their street, even.b, 21b, 21LOL at what passes for a "reporter" these days...b, 21b, 21war correspondants from the front lines, this dude's never been to San Francisco. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21But that's my point. They're NOT forced to interact with people living on the streets. The actual degree of inter-class contact has steadily disappeared over the last 20 years (in most cities, but especially S.F.) as populations homogenize. The toniest parts of S.F. are I>completely/i1 cut off from the rest of city's population: St. Francis Woods, Pac Heights, even Snowy, er, I mean Noe Valley and Cole Valley. I'm not suggesting SF is like Blackhawk or some shit, but there's a good degree of social isolation throughout SF's neighborhoods. Having lived in the Sunset, me and my family rarely went east of the Upper Haight (except to go to the Groove Merchant) and the Avenues were certainly homogenous, class-wise. b, 21b, 21Muni, arguably, is the great equalizer (as public transit often is) but it's not exactly the most ideal point of contact. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Muni perhaps, but BART enabled the further distilation by shifting a large part of the cities poor and minorities to Oakland. No? b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21It's plausible but I would have to see a study to believe this. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I think Motown already addressed this. BART didn't move people out of the city in the manner Saba was suggesting. It was more than BART facilitated White flight by making it possible for people to move beyond the immediate SF/Oakland corridor but still make it into SF to work. If you at the areas BART services and the cost of the train itself, it wasn't designed for the poor.
Quote:h, 21b, 21that's always been one of my favorite things about SF: the millionaires are forced to interact with people living on the streets. Their street, even.b, 21b, 21LOL at what passes for a "reporter" these days...b, 21b, 21war correspondants from the front lines, this dude's never been to San Francisco. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21But that's my point. They're NOT forced to interact with people living on the streets. The actual degree of inter-class contact has steadily disappeared over the last 20 years (in most cities, but especially S.F.) as populations homogenize. The toniest parts of S.F. are I>completely/i1 cut off from the rest of city's population: St. Francis Woods, Pac Heights, even Snowy, er, I mean Noe Valley and Cole Valley. I'm not suggesting SF is like Blackhawk or some shit, but there's a good degree of social isolation throughout SF's neighborhoods. Having lived in the Sunset, me and my family rarely went east of the Upper Haight (except to go to the Groove Merchant) and the Avenues were certainly homogenous, class-wise. b, 21b, 21Muni, arguably, is the great equalizer (as public transit often is) but it's not exactly the most ideal point of contact. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Muni perhaps, but BART enabled the further distilation by shifting a large part of the cities poor and minorities to Oakland. No? b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21It's plausible but I would have to see a study to believe this. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Don't think it happened for reasons expressed above. The move of blacks at least in the Bay Area has been to leave Oakland, SF and Richmond for the outer reaches of the Bay and the Central Valley. Antioch, Stockton and Sacramento being the main destinations due to their lower housing costs. After that, many got up and left the state and moved back to the South, again, for the cheaper cost of living. On the other hand, there's been a massive growth of the Latino population here that started in the 1980s, but really took off in the 90s. Don't know about SF, but in the East Bay they're moving into lot of traditional black neighborhoods like East Oakland and downtown Richmond and white working class areas of San Pablo and Pinole. None of this had anything to do with BART.
Quote:h, 21b, 21 BART is a commuter line, first and foremost. It's for the good of suburban dwellers who work in the city but you don't use it to travel IN the city. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I do, just like many others who live in the Mission or try to get there. In fact, I prefer BART over Muni for any of the 4 underground market st stations. God, Muni is the freaking worst b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Get a motorcycle or scooter. It's a life changer when living in SF.
Quote:h, 21b, 21 BART is a commuter line, first and foremost. It's for the good of suburban dwellers who work in the city but you don't use it to travel IN the city. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I do, just like many others who live in the Mission or try to get there. In fact, I prefer BART over Muni for any of the 4 underground market st stations. God, Muni is the freaking worst b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Get a motorcycle or scooter. It's a life changer when living in SF. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21heh, i'd rather not because i am a parking ticket magnet. it's why i got rid of my car. driving a stick shift in the city was kinda fun though, i miss it. now i use zip car for when i absolutely need one which is really convenient and gas is included
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