Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21F*ck that I drive a Caddy, USA! USA! USA! b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21GM needs to figure out how they are going to get out of this mess and produce something Americans simply can't live without. That's the American Way. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Yeah like they did with the General Motors Streetcar conspiracy http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/General-Motors-streetcar-conspiracyb, 21b, 21instead of expanding on the EV1 you sell us Hummers and then sell the rights to the EV1 to an oil company......
b, 21b, 21Michigander or Michiganianb, 21b, 21CHOOSE!b, 21b, 21Not to take this off track, but what area of the mitten did you previously represent? b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21it has to be michiganderb, 21(that is what i was told when i moved there)b, 21b, 21i'm sure the folkz at cranbrook will come up with a snazzy design for the new bailoutbuggy
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Didnt we bail out Chrylser or GM back in the 80's?b, 21Fat lotta good that did... b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Exactly. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Actually from what I heard that deal actually worked for the government because not only did they get paid back, they actually made a profit. Different situation from today completely. b, 21b, 21The U.S. auto industry has no plans on how to revitalize their business. They have actually been failing with their business plans repeatedly. They make cars that no one wants. They also can't make cars that are competively priced compared to Japanese cars made in the U.S. If the government bails them out it will be a big black hole from which our money will never be seen again.
b, 21b, 21Michigander or Michiganianb, 21b, 21CHOOSE!b, 21b, 21Not to take this off track, but what area of the mitten did you previously represent? b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Ann Arbor. My dad had just finished up an MA at UM there in the early 1970s when I was born (my mom, however, was a Ball State alum). We didn't stay in Michigan long though; I was in Boston before I even turned one. That said, I was part of a wave of Asian American kids born in the Midwest in the 60s and 70s because of grad school recruitment of scientists and engineers by research institutions out there. God bless the Cold War.
I say F*ck the american auto industry. they've been sitting on their asses making the same bullshit cars for so long now.b, 21b, 21Hyundai used to be a joke. Now Hyundai is seen as making affordable and reliable cars. If Hyundai can turn it around why could any american car companies? because they kepts selling us bullshit gas guzzlers and big ass trucks and SUVs and now nobody wants that shit. well boo-hoo, you should have seen that coming from miles away. You sit on your ass, you fail. And you have failed so boo f*cking hoo.
Bailing out the auto industry is a good idea as long as the bail out comes with a stipulation that the auto industry must produce more fuel efficient cars that rely significantly less on oil than other energy sources.b, 21b, 21When the economy is in the tubes it's always a good time to reinvent the wheel.
they should have all the companies present their designs for the future car and a business model and the winner gets the bailout.b, 21b, 21b, 21like that chevy volt - i'd buy that shit in a heartbeat. so it sounds like chevy has a real plan for the future so bail them out. or something like that.
b, 21b, 21Michigander or Michiganianb, 21b, 21CHOOSE!b, 21b, 21Not to take this off track, but what area of the mitten did you previously represent? b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Ann Arbor. My dad had just finished up an MA at UM there in the early 1970s when I was born (my mom, however, was a Ball State alum). We didn't stay in Michigan long though; I was in Boston before I even turned one. That said, I was part of a wave of Asian American kids born in the Midwest in the 60s and 70s because of grad school recruitment of scientists and engineers by research institutions out there. God bless the Cold War. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21On an unrelated note, Ball State 10-0 and ranked number 14 in college football...where my BSU Cardinal fans at??????? Big ups to Muncie, Indiana. Now back to your regularly scheduled auto thread.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21The U.S. auto industry has no plans on how to revitalize their business. They have actually been failing with their business plans repeatedly. They make cars that no one wants. They also can't make cars that are competively priced compared to Japanese cars made in the U.S. If the government bails them out it will be a big black hole from which our money will never be seen again. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21yeah, i'd trust these guys with my money about as much as I would Big Tobacco. b, 21b, 21would love to see more money going to making train travel an attractive option again, as well as prioritizing new light rail and subway construction nationwide. public transport hasn't been prioritized in this country since at least the Carter years, and any earnest moves to slow climate change and build a new green economy has to remedy that by trying to reduce the number of cars on the road (or at least their necessity to the average American's daily life). b, 21b, 21tax credits for new bike purchases and those use public transport for their daily commute would be a good look, although perhaps more appropriate on a state level than federal?
In the UK, car sales have ground to a halt. Everyone buys a new car on credit, which isn't available any more. They also passed a law, just before the banks went tits up, that cars newer than 2001 have to pay more road tax every year.b, 21b, 21So anyone like me, with two working 8 year old jawns, isn't in a rush to "Upgrade".b, 21b, 21They also got petrol at over ??5 a gallon, so no-one wants to run anything that doesn't do 50 mpg.b, 21b, 21And everyone has to drive to work - there are no local jobs any more because it's cheaper to make things 7000 miles away where they'll work at gunpoint for 23p and a cockroach kebab, and then import it back.b, 21b, 21Still, it could be worse.
not sure if anyone is watching the committee meeting right now, but i am actually pretty happy with my gov't right now (repubs & dems).b, 21b, 21asking hard questions, but showing respect to the industry. just an all around good conversation.
my crystal ball says:b, 21b, 21$25B already allocated for CAFE improvement/Hybrid cars gets 're-allocated' as bail out money.b, 21b, 21GM divests GMAC (and GMAC tries to turn itself into a bank to get part of the $700B).b, 21b, 21GM & Chrysler merge, Cerberus tries to get out of auto-industryb, 21b, 21Ford stays as is, and pending cash remains available till 2010 and gas goes up around $70 barrel, they actually find a way out of this mess looking the best.
i'm a little ignorant but i feel like a collapse of the US auto industry would be disasterous, whether the people in charge of those companies are idiots or not. lots of lost jobs and general misery. look at flint (as seen in some of michael moore's more poignant moments). it's funny how these fuckers are always talking about free market until their company starts losing money, then it's back to boss man government for a hand out. the US transportation system was built on gov't subsidies (train system at least), stop acting otherwise.
You have to have a domestic auto industry because when Obama starts bombing Pakistan and we need to send troops to Darfur, you need somebody to supply all the tanks and military vehicles.
Quote:h, 21b, 21I say give Tesla Motors $25 billion and they give 1,000,000 cars to families for the money!!b, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21Mitt Romney has got some ideas! Let the Big 3 go bankrupt!!!b, 21b, 21http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=3&rss b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21In a way it's surprising that the three CEO's aren't in favor of this, it's probably the fastest final solution to the labor issues they have been complaining about. b, 21b, 21I have no idea how to handle this, it seems like lose/lose/lose all the way down the line. These auto companies were by no means helped by the credit collapse, but they were managing to lose money when people were throwing credit around like drunken sailors not that long ago, so how can they come hat in hand now with a straight face and say this will do anything but stave off the inevitable?b, 21b, 21I really think at this point it will come down to this being the last stand of the Republicans, and they will block any bail-out as a way of 'standing on principle' and at the same time doing serious damge to the unions(blaming them for the companies' ills).b, 21b, 21The new administration may try to undo that to some degree with low-cost loan stuff, but I can't see how it will help much.
Quote:h, 21b, 21I really think at this point it will come down to this being the last stand of the Republicans, and they will block any bail-out as a way of 'standing on principle' and at the same time doing serious damge to the unions(blaming them for the companies' ills).b, 21b, 21The new administration may try to undo that to some degree with low-cost loan stuff, but I can't see how it will help much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21You don't think the union deserves any % of the blame here??
Quote:h, 21b, 21I really think at this point it will come down to this being the last stand of the Republicans, and they will block any bail-out as a way of 'standing on principle' and at the same time doing serious damge to the unions(blaming them for the companies' ills).b, 21b, 21The new administration may try to undo that to some degree with low-cost loan stuff, but I can't see how it will help much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21You don't think the union deserves any % of the blame here?? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Sure, they deserve their fair share in this, as they are an integral part of the industry, and the industry in the US as a whole is failing. But it strikes me that these CEOs would like us to believe that they would have been more innovative if it weren't for the unfair drag of the unions, which seems a bit of a stretch. The cost of the unions don't seem to have dampened what these CEOs make! Why should the employees in the unions be the only ones making concessions?b, 21b, 21This is why I say, it's a tough situation. Not much good arguing over the Unions if the industry falls apart or is re-structured to the point where those contracts and jobs become null and void, but if you don't you are looking at losing all the ground you have ever fought for anyway. So much stuff to lose on the line for all of us.
Quote:h, 21b, 21I really think at this point it will come down to this being the last stand of the Republicans, and they will block any bail-out as a way of 'standing on principle' and at the same time doing serious damge to the unions(blaming them for the companies' ills).b, 21b, 21The new administration may try to undo that to some degree with low-cost loan stuff, but I can't see how it will help much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21You don't think the union deserves any % of the blame here?? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Sure, they deserve their fair share in this, as they are an integral part of the industry, and the industry in the US as a whole is failing. But it strikes me that these CEOs would like us to believe that they would have been more innovative if it weren't for the unfair drag of the unions, which seems a bit of a stretch. The cost of the unions don't seem to have dampened what these CEOs make! Why should the employees in the unions be the only ones making concessions?b, 21b, 21This is why I say, it's a tough situation. Not much good arguing over the Unions if the industry falls apart or is re-structured to the point where those contracts and jobs become null and void, but if you don't you are looking at losing all the ground you have ever fought for anyway. So much stuff to lose on the line for all of us. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Agreed.b, 21b, 21I would not be against a bail out that negotiates both a logical business plan for the future and the elimination of the UAW.b, 21b, 21At one time in our history unions were very necessary and played an important role in worker safety, benefits and pay scale.b, 21b, 21Today they are mostly corrupt and unnecessary as proven in non-Union states that have not experienced the high degree economic woes of their unionized counterparts.
Quote:h, 21b, 21I really think at this point it will come down to this being the last stand of the Republicans, and they will block any bail-out as a way of 'standing on principle' and at the same time doing serious damge to the unions(blaming them for the companies' ills).b, 21b, 21The new administration may try to undo that to some degree with low-cost loan stuff, but I can't see how it will help much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21You don't think the union deserves any % of the blame here?? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Sure, they deserve their fair share in this, as they are an integral part of the industry, and the industry in the US as a whole is failing. But it strikes me that these CEOs would like us to believe that they would have been more innovative if it weren't for the unfair drag of the unions, which seems a bit of a stretch. The cost of the unions don't seem to have dampened what these CEOs make! Why should the employees in the unions be the only ones making concessions?b, 21b, 21This is why I say, it's a tough situation. Not much good arguing over the Unions if the industry falls apart or is re-structured to the point where those contracts and jobs become null and void, but if you don't you are looking at losing all the ground you have ever fought for anyway. So much stuff to lose on the line for all of us. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Agreed.b, 21b, 21I would not be against a bail out that negotiates both a logical business plan for the future and the elimination of the UAW.b, 21b, 21At one time in our history unions were very necessary and played an important role in worker safety, benefits and pay scale.b, 21b, 21Today they are mostly corrupt and unnecessary as proven in non-Union states that have not experienced the high degree economic woes of their unionized counterparts. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21But if you essentially eliminate the UAW by decree of the Federal Government, you would just be handing the industry a blank check to walk all over current and future employees, which would be a horrible idea. So we disagree here. By your reasoning the Fed should require that all those in top management be removed. How is this the role of 'smaller government'? If the Union has made itself a necessary part of doing business, how is this not letting the market be the market?b, 21b, 21Don't shoot all the dogs just cuz a couple have fleas.
if the Big Three were to declare Chapter 11 & go into reorganization it would cause a chain reaction of parts suppliers & associated companies across the nation to go bankrupt as wellb, 21b, 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dominoes22.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21that would = increased burdens on the Fed & State govts
Quote:h, 21b, 21if the Big Three were to declare Chapter 11 & go into reorganization it would cause a chain reaction of parts suppliers & associated companies across the nation to go bankrupt as wellb, 21b, 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dominoes22.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21that would = increased burdens on the Fed & State govts b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21But how long can you keep them afloat artifically through these loans/bailouts? What will be able to be done in 6 months time when that money is gone and their problems are effectively the same?b, 21b, 21And what about the domino effect of one industry after the other coming to capitol hill for the same thing?b, 21b, 21b, 21If giving them money would work and keep those jobs in the US, I would say do it. I am not convinced that it will do that. I wish I were!
Quote:h, 21b, 21I really think at this point it will come down to this being the last stand of the Republicans, and they will block any bail-out as a way of 'standing on principle' and at the same time doing serious damge to the unions(blaming them for the companies' ills).b, 21b, 21The new administration may try to undo that to some degree with low-cost loan stuff, but I can't see how it will help much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21You don't think the union deserves any % of the blame here?? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Sure, they deserve their fair share in this, as they are an integral part of the industry, and the industry in the US as a whole is failing. But it strikes me that these CEOs would like us to believe that they would have been more innovative if it weren't for the unfair drag of the unions, which seems a bit of a stretch. The cost of the unions don't seem to have dampened what these CEOs make! Why should the employees in the unions be the only ones making concessions?b, 21b, 21This is why I say, it's a tough situation. Not much good arguing over the Unions if the industry falls apart or is re-structured to the point where those contracts and jobs become null and void, but if you don't you are looking at losing all the ground you have ever fought for anyway. So much stuff to lose on the line for all of us. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Agreed.b, 21b, 21I would not be against a bail out that negotiates both a logical business plan for the future and the elimination of the UAW.b, 21b, 21At one time in our history unions were very necessary and played an important role in worker safety, benefits and pay scale.b, 21b, 21Today they are mostly corrupt and unnecessary as proven in non-Union states that have not experienced the high degree economic woes of their unionized counterparts. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21But if you essentially eliminate the UAW by decree of the Federal Government, you would just be handing the industry a blank check to walk all over current and future employees, which would be a horrible idea. So we disagree here. By your reasoning the Fed should require that all those in top management be removed. How is this the role of 'smaller government'? If the Union has made itself a necessary part of doing business, how is this not letting the market be the market?b, 21b, 21Don't shoot all the dogs just cuz a couple have fleas. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I contend there is a wide gap between what the UAW demands and the industry "walking over their employees".b, 21b, 21There is a happy medium somewhere in there that would work best for all involved.
It's been interesting watching this unfold. b, 21b, 211) Bankruptcy will likely destroy the unions, as a bankruptcy judge can void union contracts. b, 21b, 212) I think the Ds want to bail out the auto industry because Michigan, Indiana and Ohio just came through for the Ds in a big way. Big political win for unions and for industrial workers. b, 21b, 213) As support and thank you for the unions a bail out makes sense. b, 21b, 214) As public policy not so much.
b, 21b, 21public policy won't have a pot to piss in when a chain reaction of bankruptcies takes down the entire American manufacturing sector, advertising agencies, legal firms, R&D, arts endowments, you name it
The reason the auto industry is so burdened by unions is not current pay and benefits, which are in line with non-union parts of the industry. b, 21b, 21Because the industry is so old the health and retirement benefits are sky high.b, 21b, 21In the boom days of the 80s and 90s the executives plundered the coffers. They failed to plan for the future financially. b, 21b, 21Earlier this year the big 3 got out of the retirement pay business and the unions are now responsible for meeting retirement benefits of their members.b, 21b, 21The unions built the US auto industry into the greatest industry in the world. During WWII they built all the tanks and jeeps and transports. They built all the great cars of the 40s, 50s and 60s, while the rest of the world were desperately trying to copy Detroit. b, 21b, 21The failure to modernize, to innovate and to build safe and fuel efficient cars falls squarely on the shoulders of management.
b, 21b, 21public policy won't have a pot to piss in when a chain reaction of bankruptcies takes down the entire American manufacturing sector, advertising agencies, legal firms, R&D, arts endowments, you name it b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Bankruptcies doesn't mean going out of business. It means reorganizing to stay in business. b, 21b, 21We survived the completely collapse of the steel industry, the clothing industry and many others. b, 21b, 21I agree that our country is worse off for the collapse of those industries. b, 21But, I don't think a bailout of the Big 3 makes much sense now. b, 21b, 21I would much rather see us rebuild our infrastructure including a functioning railroad system. b, 21b, 21I think injecting money into the economy that way would be a better way to shore up the entire American manufacturing sector, advertising agencies, legal firms, R&D, arts endowments, you name it.
oooh, lets put the money in light rail & bike trails!b, 21b, 21where do you live? Portland? GTFOHWTHBSb, 21b, 21I know what Chapter 11 isb, 21b, 21NOBODY IS GONNA BUY A CAR FROM A COMPANY IN CHAPTER 11
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