Most of us have read Upton Sinclare's The Jungle. b, 21b, 21Improvements in the meat packing industry were brought about by unions. b, 21b, 21In the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s meat packing paid a good family wage that allowed one parent to work and the other to tend to family. b, 21b, 21It was still a hard job, in wet near freezing temperatures, where digits were often lost. b, 21b, 21In about 1980 Hormel lead the fight against the unions. By the 1990s meat packing plants were no longer unionized. b, 21b, 21Wages were slashed. Working conditions deteriorated. It was no longer an industry that American families wanted to work in. b, 21b, 21Today the meat packing industry employees almost exclusively immigrants. Many of them undocumented and underage. Management has been caught giving workers amphetamines to speed production and lengthen working hours. b, 21b, 21Any one who thinks that the auto industry would continue to offer good working conditions, wages and benefits after the UAW is gone ought to think again.
Quote:h, 21b, 21oooh, lets put the money in light rail & bike trails!b, 21b, 21where do you live? Portland? GTFOHWTHBSb, 21b, 21I know what Chapter 11 isb, 21b, 21NOBODY IS GONNA BUY A CAR FROM A COMPANY IN CHAPTER 11 b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Nobody is buying a car from them now either.
Quote:h, 21b, 21Nobody is buying a car from them now either. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21yes, thats why they're asking for the bailoutb, 21b, 21they were limping along, making moves at re-organizing( layoffs, shift eliminations, plant closings, retooling slowly toward fuel economy)b, 21b, 21then the economic crisis hit & people ceased making investment purchases entirely( not just cars, home appliances etc)b, 21b, 21the whole industry was on life support & the airtube just got pinchedb, 21b, 21I dunno what the solution is - temporary nationalization? oh wait, that's socialism img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" 21
b, 21b, 21Michigander or Michiganianb, 21b, 21CHOOSE!b, 21b, 21Not to take this off track, but what area of the mitten did you previously represent? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21it has to be michiganderb, 21(that is what i was told when i moved there)b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21But women are Michigeese?b, 21b, 21b, 21
Quote:h, 21b, 21NOBODY IS GONNA BUY A CAR FROM A COMPANY IN CHAPTER 11 b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I'm afraid that this is the crux of the biscuit. Hard economic times coupled with a lack of consumer confidence could be the final nail in the US automaker coffin. Such a shame; this country created the auto industry and then just let it all go to hell. Would it have been that difficult to offer more fuel-efficiency 20 years ago?
Quote:h, 21b, 21I really think at this point it will come down to this being the last stand of the Republicans, and they will block any bail-out as a way of 'standing on principle' and at the same time doing serious damge to the unions(blaming them for the companies' ills).b, 21b, 21The new administration may try to undo that to some degree with low-cost loan stuff, but I can't see how it will help much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21You don't think the union deserves any % of the blame here?? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Many of the car companies moved or started up new plants in the south to avoid the unions. That's a red herring.
P.P.S. - To repeat, the reason the U.S. car companies are screwed is because they have failed business models that have been failing for the last several years.
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21But if you essentially eliminate the UAW by decree of the Federal Government, you would just be handing the industry a blank check to walk all over current and future employees, which would be a horrible idea.b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21This hasn't been the case when you look at other car companies.
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21But if you essentially eliminate the UAW by decree of the Federal Government, you would just be handing the industry a blank check to walk all over current and future employees, which would be a horrible idea.b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21This hasn't been the case when you look at other car companies. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21In this country? That's because other car companies pay their employees enough that they wont invite the UAW in.b, 21b, 21In other countries? That's because in Japan, Germany, Italy, England... wage and labor laws are strong, health care, housing and retirement are socialized so those costs are low.
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21But if you essentially eliminate the UAW by decree of the Federal Government, you would just be handing the industry a blank check to walk all over current and future employees, which would be a horrible idea.b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21This hasn't been the case when you look at other car companies. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21In this country? That's because other car companies pay their employees enough that they wont invite the UAW in.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21So they won't be walked all over.b, 21b, 21That's what I thought.
And the Democrats trying to tack on some middle-class relief nonsense as part of the $700 billion bailout is such a joke and perfectly sums up why we're in this current mess: Money used for short-sighted purposes instead of looking longterm.
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21But if you essentially eliminate the UAW by decree of the Federal Government, you would just be handing the industry a blank check to walk all over current and future employees, which would be a horrible idea.b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21This hasn't been the case when you look at other car companies. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Many of the U.S. and foreign car companies have opened up new car plants in the South because they can pay the workers considerably less than workers in the north because they are non-union. The wages are high for the south, but not compared to other car workers.
Quote:h, 21b, 21b, 21But if you essentially eliminate the UAW by decree of the Federal Government, you would just be handing the industry a blank check to walk all over current and future employees, which would be a horrible idea.b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21This hasn't been the case when you look at other car companies. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Many of the U.S. and foreign car companies have opened up new car plants in the South because they can pay the workers considerably less than workers in the north because they are non-union. The wages are high for the south, but not compared to other car workers. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Maybe auto workers in the north are overpaid??
Quote:h, 21b, 21I'm sorry, but I've worked in a factory, and anything over $15/hour should be considered generous. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I'm from a "union family".....my father, grandfather and uncles were all Local 3 union electricians in NYC.....make no mistake, these guys with minimal education were able to lead middle class lives because of their union affiliation..and as a result I was raised better than some.......but I have two vivid memories about going to work with my father that etched the concept of modern day unions permanently on my brain....and as a result, I have little use and less respect for unions as a whole.b, 21b, 21The first one was going to work with my dad when he was working on 747 hangars at JFK Airport....we got to work at 7:00AM, he punched in, and proceeded to drink coffee and BS with his buddies for at least an hour.....after a while I asked him when we were gonna work......he pointed across the room at a large electrical box and said....."You see that electrical box over there with the large wooden 2 by 4 leaning against it?"....."I'm not allowed to move that piece of wood to get into the electricl box to work, only someone in the Carpenter's union can move it and they're not here yet"!! Two hours later the carpenter showed up, moved the wood, and we went to work.....3 hours pay at $30.00 an hour to do absolutley nothing.b, 21b, 21The second one was when he brought me to a job in Manhattan.....I wanted to help so he brought me into a room that was in a skeletal state and told me I had to drill holes, 10" off the ground, through all the beams so they could run wire through them.....he left me alone and I was looking at drilling maybe 75-100 pieces of wood......an hour later he returned and I was done....he was kinda pissed and said..."Hey, you gotta slow down"...I asked if I had not done it right and he said..."You did OK, but these guys are gonna get pissed, the contract calls for 20 holes an hour"....WTF!!!b, 21b, 21I may have had a unique experience and hence a unique perspective but as a result I have no sympathy for any union that faces hard times.....you reap what you sow.
One major problem with the U.S. auto industry, they put all their eggs into one basket. They focused most of their production on high end/expensive vehicles, i.e. SUVs, trucks, Lincolns, Cadillacs, etc. They have been told for at least the last 10 years to diversify and build more fuel efficient cars, but they have fought it tooth and nail. They have fought every proposal in Congress to increase fuel efficiency marks, they used a loophole to get SUVs considered trucks so they didn't have to have good fuel efficiency. Now those vehicles that they make are tanking, first becuse of the increase in gas, and now because people don't have the money for them with the economy tanking. The Japanese are waaay ahead on hybrids, etc. plus way ahead on introducing new technology to cars. Their market share is shrinking rapidly.b, 21b, 21Rock, please explain to me how that is the fault of the unions?
Quote:h, 21b, 21One major problem with the U.S. auto industry, they put all their eggs into one basket. They focused most of their production on high end/expensive vehicles, i.e. SUVs, trucks, Lincolns, Cadillacs, etc. They have been told for at least the last 10 years to diversify and build more fuel efficient cars, but they have fought it tooth and nail. They have fought every proposal in Congress to increase fuel efficiency marks, they used a loophole to get SUVs considered trucks so they didn't have to have good fuel efficiency. Now those vehicles that they make are tanking, first becuse of the increase in gas, and now because people don't have the money for them with the economy tanking. The Japanese are waaay ahead on hybrids, etc. plus way ahead on introducing new technology to cars. Their market share is shrinking rapidly.b, 21b, 21Rock, please explain to me how that is the fault of the unions? b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I never said that all or even most of the current auto dilemna falls to the UAW. But they do share in it and shouldn't get a pass on their contributions to the problems. What you describe above is undoubtedly the major cause. Greed has run rampant in the auto industry and I don't see anyone coming out of it with totally claen hands.
universal health care would give some major financial relief to these backwards ass companies while helping out americans in general. why not get on board with the benefits that the japans and europeans already have. b, 21b, 21F*ck a bailout. why not let them fail and use the billions to invest in new companies and infrastructure (which would create jobs).
From what I've read the problem with the workers is the pensions that the U.S. auto makers cut with the workers. The U.S. companies cut long term pension plans with the unions, this despite decline in sales for U.S. companies that had been going on for years. The Japanese companies that opened up factories in the U.S. set up pay as you go systems where the companies contributed to workers when they were on the job. When that person stopped working for whatever reason, no more contributions by the Japanese company compared to the U.S. ones that still had that pension fund to take care of in the future regardless. b, 21b, 21With regards to the cars U.S. auto makers are producing, they continued to make models that were declining in sales. Expeditions and Explorers have seen massive drop in sales for several years now for example. At the same time, sales of mid-size to smaller Japanese cars have been booming with their lower costs and better fuel efficiency. b, 21b, 21Japanese companies are also way ahead in selling cars to emerging markets like China, India and South America compared to U.S. companies.b, 21b, 21U.S. auto makers also buy more expensive parts from U.S. suppliers, while China is boosting its auto parts for much cheaper prices. b, 21b, 21In terms of business model, U.S. companies didn't take the foreign competition seriously, especially when foreign companies began opening up more and more plants in the U.S. in the 1990s. As the U.S. market became more competitive, the U.S. companies continued to act like they had before without adapting.
Quote:h, 21b, 21From what I've read the problem with the workers is the pensions that the U.S. auto makers cut with the workers. The U.S. companies cut long term pension plans with the unions, this despite decline in sales for U.S. companies that had been going on for years. The Japanese companies that opened up factories in the U.S. set up pay as you go systems where the companies contributed to workers when they were on the job. When that person stopped working for whatever reason, no more contributions by the Japanese company compared to the U.S. ones that still had that pension fund to take care of in the future regardless. b, 21b, 21With regards to the cars U.S. auto makers are producing, they continued to make models that were declining in sales. Expeditions and Explorers have seen massive drop in sales for several years now for example. At the same time, sales of mid-size to smaller Japanese cars have been booming with their lower costs and better fuel efficiency. b, 21b, 21Japanese companies are also way ahead in selling cars to emerging markets like China, India and South America compared to U.S. companies.b, 21b, 21U.S. auto makers also buy more expensive parts from U.S. suppliers, while China is boosting its auto parts for much cheaper prices. b, 21b, 21In terms of business model, U.S. companies didn't take the foreign competition seriously, especially when foreign companies began opening up more and more plants in the U.S. in the 1990s. As the U.S. market became more competitive, the U.S. companies continued to act like they had before without adapting. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21This whole discussion seems to find a consensus with most of us that bailing out just doesn't seem sound, even if we come to that conclusion for profoundly different reasons. This is pretty dire for the Big 3 and their attendant industries, at least in the short term, it's going to be heavy.
In a way it's surprising that the three CEO's aren't in favor of this, it's probably the fastest final solution to the labor issues they have been complaining about. b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21It's not surprising at all. It isn't just the union contracts that can be made void in bankruptcy proceedings.
Quote:h, 21b, 21I'm sorry, but I've worked in a factory, and anything over $15/hour should be considered generous. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I'm from a "union family".....my father, grandfather and uncles were all Local 3 union electricians in NYC.....make no mistake, these guys with minimal education were able to lead middle class lives because of their union affiliation..and as a result I was raised better than some.......but I have two vivid memories about going to work with my father that etched the concept of modern day unions permanently on my brain....and as a result, I have little use and less respect for unions as a whole.b, 21b, 21The first one was going to work with my dad when he was working on 747 hangars at JFK Airport....we got to work at 7:00AM, he punched in, and proceeded to drink coffee and BS with his buddies for at least an hour.....after a while I asked him when we were gonna work......he pointed across the room at a large electrical box and said....."You see that electrical box over there with the large wooden 2 by 4 leaning against it?"....."I'm not allowed to move that piece of wood to get into the electricl box to work, only someone in the Carpenter's union can move it and they're not here yet"!! Two hours later the carpenter showed up, moved the wood, and we went to work.....3 hours pay at $30.00 an hour to do absolutley nothing.b, 21b, 21The second one was when he brought me to a job in Manhattan.....I wanted to help so he brought me into a room that was in a skeletal state and told me I had to drill holes, 10" off the ground, through all the beams so they could run wire through them.....he left me alone and I was looking at drilling maybe 75-100 pieces of wood......an hour later he returned and I was done....he was kinda pissed and said..."Hey, you gotta slow down"...I asked if I had not done it right and he said..."You did OK, but these guys are gonna get pissed, the contract calls for 20 holes an hour"....WTF!!!b, 21b, 21I may have had a unique experience and hence a unique perspective but as a result I have no sympathy for any union that faces hard times.....you reap what you sow. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Those are great stories. b, 21b, 21I think the UAW of today is very different from NY IEBW and other unions in the 60s.b, 21b, 21Everything in any union contract, from work rules to pensions, are negotiated by management. b, 21b, 21Rock, tell us one way that the UAW is responsible for today crisis.
Quote:h, 21b, 21I'm sorry, but I've worked in a factory, and anything over $15/hour should be considered generous. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I'm from a "union family".....my father, grandfather and uncles were all Local 3 union electricians in NYC.....make no mistake, these guys with minimal education were able to lead middle class lives because of their union affiliation..and as a result I was raised better than some.......but I have two vivid memories about going to work with my father that etched the concept of modern day unions permanently on my brain....and as a result, I have little use and less respect for unions as a whole.b, 21b, 21The first one was going to work with my dad when he was working on 747 hangars at JFK Airport....we got to work at 7:00AM, he punched in, and proceeded to drink coffee and BS with his buddies for at least an hour.....after a while I asked him when we were gonna work......he pointed across the room at a large electrical box and said....."You see that electrical box over there with the large wooden 2 by 4 leaning against it?"....."I'm not allowed to move that piece of wood to get into the electricl box to work, only someone in the Carpenter's union can move it and they're not here yet"!! Two hours later the carpenter showed up, moved the wood, and we went to work.....3 hours pay at $30.00 an hour to do absolutley nothing.b, 21b, 21The second one was when he brought me to a job in Manhattan.....I wanted to help so he brought me into a room that was in a skeletal state and told me I had to drill holes, 10" off the ground, through all the beams so they could run wire through them.....he left me alone and I was looking at drilling maybe 75-100 pieces of wood......an hour later he returned and I was done....he was kinda pissed and said..."Hey, you gotta slow down"...I asked if I had not done it right and he said..."You did OK, but these guys are gonna get pissed, the contract calls for 20 holes an hour"....WTF!!!b, 21b, 21I may have had a unique experience and hence a unique perspective but as a result I have no sympathy for any union that faces hard times.....you reap what you sow. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Those are great stories. b, 21b, 21I think the UAW of today is very different from NY IEBW and other unions in the 60s.b, 21b, 21Everything in any union contract, from work rules to pensions, are negotiated by management. b, 21b, 21Rock, tell us one way that the UAW is responsible for today crisis. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Not my words below, but they hit the nail on the head.....feel free to contact Mr. Reisman at Pepperdine University if you don't agree and would like to debate the issue.b, 21b, 21b, 21__________________________________________________________________________________b, 21GM is in a bad spot because of 1) Inferior products, 2) Wrong products (SUV sales down more than 50%--credit crunch & gas prices), 3) Union. b, 21b, 21Everything needs to be fixed. The Union employees get paid a grossly inflated amount which hurts the company's competitiveness, sales, profits and research & development. Union salaries can be recouped via profit sharing bonuses but the current salaries should be slashed by 50%.b, 21b, 21If I were CEO, I would say, "F U" to the UAW and relocate to another state and not deal with their outrageous demands. The Unions can help but they are overzealous in their actions. People don't have to work hard as they are GUARANTEED a pay raise. People can show up drunk and it's ok. People can work slower & slower & slower and keep their jobs. b, 21__________________________________________________________________________________b, 21The United Auto Workers union is powerful. Lots of money and lots of members. So what impact does the union have on Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors, and ultimately, are the actions of the UAW responsible for the high cost and low quality of American made automobiles?b, 21b, 21George Reisman, Pepperdine University Professor Emeritus of Economics, states that: "In sum, without the UAW, General Motors would not be faced with extinction. Instead, it would almost certainly be a vastly larger, far more prosperous company, producing more and better motor vehicles than ever before, at far lower costs of production and prices than it does today, and providing employment to hundreds of thousands more workers than it does today."
Quote:h, 21b, 21I'm sorry, but I've worked in a factory, and anything over $15/hour should be considered generous. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I'm from a "union family".....my father, grandfather and uncles were all Local 3 union electricians in NYC.....make no mistake, these guys with minimal education were able to lead middle class lives because of their union affiliation..and as a result I was raised better than some.......but I have two vivid memories about going to work with my father that etched the concept of modern day unions permanently on my brain....and as a result, I have little use and less respect for unions as a whole.b, 21b, 21The first one was going to work with my dad when he was working on 747 hangars at JFK Airport....we got to work at 7:00AM, he punched in, and proceeded to drink coffee and BS with his buddies for at least an hour.....after a while I asked him when we were gonna work......he pointed across the room at a large electrical box and said....."You see that electrical box over there with the large wooden 2 by 4 leaning against it?"....."I'm not allowed to move that piece of wood to get into the electricl box to work, only someone in the Carpenter's union can move it and they're not here yet"!! Two hours later the carpenter showed up, moved the wood, and we went to work.....3 hours pay at $30.00 an hour to do absolutley nothing.b, 21b, 21The second one was when he brought me to a job in Manhattan.....I wanted to help so he brought me into a room that was in a skeletal state and told me I had to drill holes, 10" off the ground, through all the beams so they could run wire through them.....he left me alone and I was looking at drilling maybe 75-100 pieces of wood......an hour later he returned and I was done....he was kinda pissed and said..."Hey, you gotta slow down"...I asked if I had not done it right and he said..."You did OK, but these guys are gonna get pissed, the contract calls for 20 holes an hour"....WTF!!!b, 21b, 21I may have had a unique experience and hence a unique perspective but as a result I have no sympathy for any union that faces hard times.....you reap what you sow. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Those are great stories. b, 21b, 21I think the UAW of today is very different from NY IEBW and other unions in the 60s.b, 21b, 21Everything in any union contract, from work rules to pensions, are negotiated by management. b, 21b, 21Rock, tell us one way that the UAW is responsible for today crisis. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Not my words below, but they hit the nail on the head.....feel free to contact Mr. Reisman at Pepperdine University if you don't agree and would like to debate the issue.b, 21b, 21b, 21__________________________________________________________________________________b, 21GM is in a bad spot because of 1) Inferior products, 2) Wrong products (SUV sales down more than 50%--credit crunch & gas prices), 3) Union. b, 21b, 21Everything needs to be fixed. The Union employees get paid a grossly inflated amount which hurts the company's competitiveness, sales, profits and research & development. Union salaries can be recouped via profit sharing bonuses but the current salaries should be slashed by 50%.b, 21b, 21If I were CEO, I would say, "F U" to the UAW and relocate to another state and not deal with their outrageous demands. The Unions can help but they are overzealous in their actions. People don't have to work hard as they are GUARANTEED a pay raise. People can show up drunk and it's ok. People can work slower & slower & slower and keep their jobs. b, 21__________________________________________________________________________________b, 21The United Auto Workers union is powerful. Lots of money and lots of members. So what impact does the union have on Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors, and ultimately, are the actions of the UAW responsible for the high cost and low quality of American made automobiles?b, 21b, 21George Reisman, Pepperdine University Professor Emeritus of Economics, states that: "In sum, without the UAW, General Motors would not be faced with extinction. Instead, it would almost certainly be a vastly larger, far more prosperous company, producing more and better motor vehicles than ever before, at far lower costs of production and prices than it does today, and providing employment to hundreds of thousands more workers than it does today." b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I found the whole article. He uses some loaded language that shows an anti-union bias, but I am assuming his research and facts are solid. b, 21b, 21One thing he really hammers on is the difficulty of firing union workers which results in workers who don't (work). Much like your examples.
how much could it possibly cost to nationalize healthcare? there must be some estimated figures available. b, 21b, 21and would that create significant unemployment from inside of the insurance industry??b, 21b, 21from what ive read and heard, the unions have some ridiculous benefits in place but are still responsibile for many many solid working class jobs, among the last in the country. and there are estimates that one in six americans are insured through the big 3???!!?? b, 21b, 21time to think big
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