Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121 there are several ways SNL could've approached the happenstance, with blackface being the most base solution. b,121b,121perhaps in 2008, we HAVE moved on from the sensitivities associated with the subtle and not so subtle history of racism in america embodied in blackface. but perhaps we haven't... b,121b,121unlike you, i cannot speak for anyone else's history, sensibilities, or intentions. however, when blackface is bandied about so casually, it silently condones the prevalence of other forms of racism, like yellowface, to seep into our collective conscience as americans. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Slow down a moment here. b,121b,121Let's begin with this fair criticism: SNL hasn't had the best history of recruiting and keeping staff of color, especially Black actors, at least not past one or two on an otherwise all-white cast. So to the extent that they "needed" an Obama and made the decision to cast in-house rather than recruit a new actor - something that I don't think they've ever done (recruit someone just to play a role) - it does suggest that they were left in the awkward situation of having to acknowledge that the ONE black guy they had wouldn't fit the role b/c Kenan simply doesn't remotely look like Obama. b,121b,121But to call Fred Armisen's role "blackface" - as if it were equivalent to say, Al Jolson in "The Jazz Singer", seems to flatten a spectrum of racially transgressive performances into a case of - pun intended - black and white. b,121b,121For one thing, unless I'm mistaken, they don't actually blacken Fred with make-up which is only important here because it reflects that Obama - as a half-white guy - is light enough that a white dude can "plausibly" play a caricature of him. Provided, Obama's blacker than, say, Maya Rudolph but the very fact that you weren't aware that Rudolph is half-black and the fact that Armisen can play a Black man without actually having to blacken up says a lot about the challenges and complexities of dealing with performance, satire and the ambiguity of race. b,121b, 21Think of it this way: isn't Rudolph, as a racially ambiguous, half-white/half-Black actress, playing Michelle Obama (who, as far as I know, is "full" Black), about the same as Armisen, as a full White guy, playing a half-White guy? Add in the fact that Obama himself has played the politics of post-race throughout his entire campaign and in some ways, the fact that a White guy is playing him is actually rather apropos. b,121b, 21What makes it less funny - to me - is that there are plenty of Black comics out there who'd love to have the opportunity to play Obama on a stage as big as SNL (esp. with the ratings they're enjoying this season - thanks Sarah/Tina!) but again, because SNL usually only has the "one" Black guy around on any given season, they were left with having to cast in-house and thus, use a White guy. b,121b,121But that to me is not "blackface being bandied about casually" because in order for you to say this, you'd have to really make a convincing argument that Armisen's performance resembles traditional blackface which, I would argue, it does not. Blackface, traditionally, has meant far more than playing a Black person - it is the performance of an imagined Blackness itself. b,121b,121Gus in "Birth of a Nation" = blackfaceb, 21White boy wanna-be thugs throwing up gang signs on myspace = blackface. b,121Amy Winehouse = (aural) blackfaceb, 21Amos n' Andy = blacks doing blackfaceb, 21b,121Fred Armisen playing a Black politician who himself has been criticized for not being Black enough...that to me is something significantly different. I don't see Armisen's role as performing Blackness and without that dynamic, it's a different kind of blackface. It's not even the equivalent of Jonathan Pryce in "Miss Saigon" (one of the more infamous yellowface casting decisions in the 80s) since in that case, part of what Pryce had to do as an actor was perform "Yellow-ness" in the process of playing an Asian character. And in any case, with Pryce, the bigger brouhaha was less about him performing in yellowface and more the issues of why they couldn't find an Asian actor to play his role. b,121b, 21Which brings us back to the politics of inclusion rather than the politics of representation. b,121b, 21The last thing I'd add here is that what makes all of this really, I>really[/i] complex is that a show like SNL - as sketch comedy - has direct roots back to vaudeville which in turn, has direct roots back to blackface minstrelsy. In that respect, even when white people are playing white people or black people are playing black people on the show, it all goes back to blackface traditions anyways. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be sensitive to the racial politics of these performances but it does mean that blackface has a far deeper and foundational dynamic in practically ALL American comedy. What we've learned to find funny about satire and caricature is not that distinctly different from what audiences 150 years found funny when white (and black) performers applied burnt cork and shucked n' jived their way to the stage. b,121b, 21In that respect, it's actually kind of hard to caricature Obama (except for his ears) because his own racial performance doesn't fit any recognizable mold (most of the time, except for when he does his post-MLK preacher speak). b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121That's what I was trying to say. b,121b, 21I'll add that given SNL's dismal history of institutional racism this is one of their better moves.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121I'll add that given SNL's dismal history of institutional racism this is one of their better moves. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121??? How so? b,121b, 21My point was that the valid point of criticism here is simply that SNL is so UN-diverse that they had to cast a non-Black actor to play Obama since they didn't have much of a choice.
what we agree on:b,121-fred's performance is not racist in and of itself, because it lacks the sting of b,121traditional 'blackface' performancesb, 21b, 21-there are plenty of *incredibly funny and talented* Black comics out there who'd love to have the opportunity to play Obamab, 21b, 21-'SNL usually only has the "one" Black guy around on any given season, they were left with having to cast in-house and thus, use a White guy.'b,121b,121b,121am i missing something? racism in the media is institutionalized and systemic!b,121b,121while many applaud SNL's decision to get maya back to play michelle, i see one step forward, two steps back. b,121b,121maybe SNL doesn't blacken fred up with cork, but let's compromise: "There's shading on my eyebrows and plastic behind my ears. And there's a little bit of something called Honey, a honey color, that is something I would wear when I play Prince."b,121b,121substituting one "racially ambiguous" person for another "racially ambiguous" person reflects an irresponsibility and lack of analysis on its impact on future media portrayals of people of color. b,121b,121society at large is not allowed to decide when it's ok to start doing blackface on national tv. it's synonymous with the use of the N-word in rap music. it's there, its context is different in its typical modern usage, but i'm still not allowed to say it. the word has been reclaimed, but it does not belong to me (and i think that is a good thing)b,121b,121at the end of the day, who cares? in this particular discussion, fred's performance is permissible. but is it beneficial? i say not, since it blows up my spot ever time i see yellowface in a movie. this is way beyond Miss Saigon, and affects movies that are coming out today. silent permission to broadcast painted caricatures dooms our next generation of asian americans to the insidious racism that we live with today. b,121b, 21obama doesn't like fred's impression that much, but as he says, maybe it will get better. jah willing, SNL will have 8yrs to practice.b,121b,121btw, you called me racist. take it back.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121I'll add that given SNL's dismal history of institutional racism this is one of their better moves. b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121??? How so? b,121b, 21My point was that the valid point of criticism here is simply that SNL is so UN-diverse that they had to cast a non-Black actor to play Obama since they didn't have much of a choice. b,121b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Since the first season, they have been equally UN-diverse. On top of that their writers have rarely written good parts for cast members of color. Buckwheat wigs and servants typify the type of roles that Black actors get on SNL. That's why I called it a "dismal history of institutional racism". b,121b, 21Oh, I see what you are asking. b,121b, 21The reason I think it was a good move is that I don't think a comic needs to be Black to portray Obama, or any other African American. Given what I have seen of the current cast, they gave the role to the actor who looked most like, and could best portray, Obama. If they had instead given it to the lone Black actor, just because he is Black and Obama is Black, that would have been a loss. b,121b, 21I think when a white actors does a non-stereotypical portrayal of a person of color, that is a positive more. This is not radical or regressive. Blacks have been playing white roles in Shakespearian plays for decades now. b,121b, 21So how do you feel about John Belushi's portrayal of Asians?
Quote:/font1h,121b,121-'SNL usually only has the "one" Black guy around on any given season, they were left with having to cast in-house and thus, use a White guy.'b,121 b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121What makes a German/Japanese/Venezuelan guy white?
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121-'SNL usually only has the "one" Black guy around on any given season, they were left with having to cast in-house and thus, use a White guy.'b,121 b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121What makes a German/Japanese/Venezuelan guy white? b,121b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Well we can all agree that the German is white.b,121b,121The Venezuelan is most likely of European, not indigenous origin. White. b,121b, 21So by the info given we have 2/3rds white. b,121b, 21^ That's mostly joking.b,121b,121What makes someone white or Black or Asian in our society is appearance and self-identification.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121 who loves orange soda? b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/emil.gif" alt="" /1 b,121b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121for the record, that was kel's catchphrase from the show 'kenan and kel'. also for the record, i hecka love orange soda too.b,121b,121object width="425" height="344"1param name="movie" value=""1/param1param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"1/param1embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"1/embed1/object1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121b,121btw, you called me racist. take it back. b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Uh, no I didn't. Re-read. b,121b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121i guess my joke wasn't very funny. engaging on buzz words like 'racist' is always tricky, and inevitably triggers varying emotions. b,121b, 21my overall point is: why aren't people of color being cast in roles, ESPECIALLY in roles where a white or whatever alternative carries so much baggage?
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121-'SNL usually only has the "one" Black guy around on any given season, they were left with having to cast in-house and thus, use a White guy.'b,121 b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121What makes a German/Japanese/Venezuelan guy white? b,121b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121this is manny's line. best for him to answer.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121substituting one "racially ambiguous" person for another "racially ambiguous" person reflects an irresponsibility and lack of analysis on its impact on future media portrayals of people of color. b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121How so? I'm still having trouble understanding what your core issue here is. b,121b, 21You're talking about "blackface" but you're not putting into context what that means for you and what its implications are. b,121b, 21Are we talking about lack of opportunities for actors of color?b, 21Are we talking about the politics of representation?b, 21Both?b,121b,121In the specific context of SNL - since this is the example you raised - I think you have a valid argument regarding hiring practices. I don't see as solid of an argument to be made around representation (which is far more subjective, not the least of which in American satire and comedy). b,121b, 21/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121society at large is not allowed to decide when it's ok to start doing blackface on national tv. it's synonymous with the use of the N-word in rap music. it's there, its context is different in its typical modern usage, but i'm still not allowed to say it. the word has been reclaimed, but it does not belong to me (and i think that is a good thing)b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121I'm unclear on how this analogy works with your argument around blackface. Are you suggesting Armisen's performance is equivalent to the use of the n-word by non-Blacks? I fail to see the similarity. If you agree that Armisen's portrayal is not problematic as a *portrayal* then what's your issue? b,121b, 21If it's about casting, then sure, SNL could/should do more. No disagreement there. b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121at the end of the day, who cares? in this particular discussion, fred's performance is permissible. but is it beneficial? b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121What is the criteria for "benefit" you're laying out? b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121 i say not, since it blows up my spot ever time i see yellowface in a movie. this is way beyond Miss Saigon, and affects movies that are coming out today. silent permission to broadcast painted caricatures dooms our next generation of asian americans to the insidious racism that we live with today. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121The insidious racism we live with today goes far beyond media images. This may seem ironic coming from me but I find that my community is overly concerned with media and underconcerned with far more damaging forms of institutional racism. If those painted caricatures were eliminated tomorrow, the trickle-down effect to improving the material lives of Asian Americans would be slow at best. b,121b,121Regardless, the yellowface you're talking about would seem to be rather different than the example of Armisen's casting. The vast tradition of yellowface isn't just about casting (though its inextricably linked to it); it's about the nature of the performance and portrayal. Something like David Carridine in "Kung Fu" was fucked up both because they didn't give Bruce Lee his due for coming up with the idea and because his portrayal relied on and reified stereotypes. Same goes for Mickey Rooney in "Breakfast at Tiffany's". But those examples are very, very different from Armisen playing Obama or Prince.b,121b,121Again, I think it's really interesting that Armisen, as a hapa, is playing two figures who have been at the forefront of racial ambiguity in popular media. Maybe that says something about how SNL hedges their bets. And maybe it also says something about the complexities of race, representation and comedy.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Like I said in an earlier thread, either his impersonation is getting better or I'm just getting more used to it. b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121It's not as funny as Bush but that's because Obama isn't as funny as Bush. Either of 'em. b,121b,121The Clinton impersonations still work but again, he's really easy to caricature.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121Like I said in an earlier thread, either his impersonation is getting better or I'm just getting more used to it. b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121It's not as funny as Bush but that's because Obama isn't as funny as Bush. Either of 'em. b,121b,121The Clinton impersonations still work but again, he's really easy to caricature. b,121b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Moving along. I hope we have an Obama presidency for the next 8 years. This will be a problem for satirists. b,121b, 21From cartoons, to comics, how do you portray Obama with out being racists?b,121b,121I have already seen on youtube, idiots portraying Obama as some sort of gangster rapper, because (I imagine), it is the only way they know how to portray a Black person.b,121b,121I heard on the radio, political cartoonist talking about how they have to check themselves to make sure their drawing of Obama does not over-accentuate his nose, hair or skin tone because it might be seen as racist.b,121b,121Impersonations are the bread and butter of many a comic. They shouldn't have to forgo impersonating the president (lets hope) just because he is Black and they arent.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121I heard on the radio, political cartoonist talking about how they have to check themselves to make sure their drawing of Obama does not over-accentuate his nose, hair or skin tone because it might be seen as racist.b,121 b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121This doesn't make any sense. It's not as if political cartoonists haveb,121never done cariactures of non-whites before. And if they are feeling b,121restrained from doing a proper representation by inability to fall backb,121on racial stereotyping that doesn't even describe Obama's appearance, thatb,121just speaks to the cartoonist's own racism & lack of talent.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121I heard on the radio, political cartoonist talking about how they have to check themselves to make sure their drawing of Obama does not over-accentuate his nose, hair or skin tone because it might be seen as racist.b,121 b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121This doesn't make any sense. It's not as if political cartoonists haveb,121never done cariactures of non-whites before. And if they are feeling b,121restrained from doing a proper representation by inability to fall backb,121on racial stereotyping that doesn't even describe Obama's appearance, thatb,121just speaks to the cartoonist's own racism & lack of talent. b,121b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21Exactly. But falling back on stereotypes is very easy, so you can tell the untalented/lazy cartoonist from the talented/hardworking ones. b,121b,121But that may not tell which are or are not racist.
to summarize your points:b,121-if fred isn't offensive, then where's the beef?b,121-how does fred's obama make effect yellowface and such?b,121b,121here's the beef:b,121snl passes the buck on the race issue. intentionally hurtful? no. it does, however, just go along with the damaging status quo of hiring AND representation when a transformational figure like obama demands so much more. what does it say about our sensibilities or values as a nation when america's first black president can't even be portrayed by a black actor? b,121b, 21it's as you mention: david carradine instead of bruce lee! or this year's movie "21", where leading asian characters were replaced with white actors. nothing malicious there. but seriously? people of color do something significant, and the american media immediately make it more marketable to the majority of white americans (intentionally or not).b,121b, 21what is even more damaging than the lack diversity in places like SNL is the psychological conditioning that robs us of cultural reference points for communities to rally to. it ignores or reassigns accomplishments, and creates a vernacular by which future generations might feel comfortable sing-songing broken chinglish to my niece. b,121b, 21in any case, as a rastafarian, i have to rail against SNL's other racist portrayal of my people below. couldn't they find an actual rasta? b,121b, 21b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121 what does it say about our sensibilities or values as a nation when america's first black president can't even be portrayed by a black actor? b,121b, 21h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121For. One. Example. I don't expect there to be a grand wave of non-Black actors playing Obama. It's not like SNL is trying to kick off a trend here. The portrayal of Blacks by non-Blacks in contemporary American media is *by far* the exception, not the rule. You going after SNL's decision here is trying to create a proverbial mountain out of a molehill. unless, as just noted, we start seeing a crap load of non-Black actors playing Obama. I don't see that happening. I also think it's of questionable value for SNL to go out and find a Black actor to play a Black figure - there's something quite tokenizing about it even though, hey, if it means one more Black actor finds work, that's not such a bad thing. b,121b,121Yellowface and blackface can't be treated as the same in these examples since the racialized history of both communities are so divergent in some ways. The fact that yellowface is far openly accepted in comparison to blackface reflects the political realty that you can fusk with Asians in the media and not pay the same price incurred by insulting Blacks or Jews, for example. b,121b, 21But this part of my point too: the ways in which the media is more careful around Black images (well, compared to the days of Jim Crow at least) hasn't translated to greater social progress for African Americans. Media images have a force all their own - of course they do - but in many ways, they're a symptom rather than a cause. If we eliminated yellowface tomorrow, does that smooth the road for Asian Americans to find the promised land? I'd suggest: not really. The rewards a psychic and that's not for nothing but the same benefits don't materialize materially. b,121b,121Fix the latter and you fix the former. b,121b,121When it comes to casting for example, if Asian Americans had more unified consumer bloc power, you'd see better representations, guaranteed.
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