What's interesting is that, up until recently, polling had suggested this measure was going down to defeat, but just in the last few weeks, it's evened up - even show a lead. And according to a CBS poll, the key demographic that's shifted towards supporting Prop 8 has been I>young people[/i] which I find wholly unexpected.b,121b,121Jesus Camp working its magic or something? b,121b,121Too much "no homo" in rap music? b,121b,121WTF?
i can't even believe that this is on the ballot in the first place. it's pretty fucked up that an issue of this consequence is being passed off to the electorate. i don't see why joe sixpack should get to decide what rights an individual may or may not have. sorry, but isn't that the role of the courts or legislature? can you imagine if the voting rights act or roe had to pass a ballot initiative?
Quote:/font1h,121b,121What's interesting is that, up until recently, polling had suggested this measure was going down to defeat, but just in the last few weeks, it's evened up - even show a lead. And according to a CBS poll, the key demographic that's shifted towards supporting Prop 8 has been I>young people[/i] which I find wholly unexpected.b,121b,121Jesus Camp working its magic or something? b,121b,121Too much "no homo" in rap music? b,121b,121WTF? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121This shocked me too but after hearing from people I go to school with in SANTA CRUZ it actually makes sense that the demographic is young people. It seems as if amongst kids who grew up somewhat Christian, but don't go to church or do Jesus Camps, homophobia is the only thing many of them have retained.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121i can't even believe that this is on the ballot in the first place. it's pretty fucked up that an issue of this consequence is being passed off to the electorate. i don't see why joe sixpack should get to decide what rights an individual may or may not have. sorry, but isn't that the role of the courts or legislature? can you imagine if the voting rights act or roe had to pass a ballot initiative? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Welcome to California, where "death by democracy" is our other state motto.b,121b,121Ultimately, gay marriage will likely get adjudicated by the Supreme Court; it's rather untenable to have a situation where gay marriages are legally recognized in some states but not in others. b,121b,121I think Prop 8 still has a good shot at failing, especially with higher voter turnout predicted. We'll have to see.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121I've been pissing of some conservatives at work because their reasoning for yes on 8 is complete bullshit. They usually end up falling back on some dumb shit about how the magic man in the sky said it wasn't right. That's an argument you tell an 8 year old. this proposition is a shitty f*cking joke. It better f*ckin pass. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Please share some of their "reasons". I need a good laugh. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121The first guy asked me that if we let same sex couples exists then what's next marrying your dog? I told him if that dog can actually say the words "I want to marry you" then yes.b,121b,121Another guy kept crying about how they will have to teach children about gay marriage because the "gay curriculum is already being taught in Massachusetts" although CA state law does not require schools to teach anything about marriage. Also California law also prohibits public schools from teaching students anything about health and family issues against the will of their parents.b,121b,121He responded with the claim that it was already happening because a class of 1st graders went to city hall to see a gay wedding. Leaving out the fact that the trip was organized by parents of these students who wanted to surprise the teacher of their children on her wedding day.b,121b,121then he cried about churches losing their tax exempt status so I informed him that the Supreme Court noted that "no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiate will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.b,121b,121Afterwards he fell back to "marriage has been between a man and a woman since the beginning of time" as if anyone should give a F*ck.b,121b,121the same guy once tried to argue that his kids pop warner team is full of fat lazy kids from broken homes and that families are being destroyed. I then asked "how many of them have gay parents?" He said "um I don't know, probably none"b,121b,121dude's a mormon so his church has been pumping him full of signs and bumper stickers.
The "Yes on 8" ads KILL ME. They're message is straight out of the 50s. If I hear that shit about the "sanctity of marriage" "between a man and a woman" one more time I will beat that ass. I don't understand what impact it's going to have on anyone other than the couples that are being denied the rights that straight couples have. And the shit about the fear of teaching gay marriage in school is ridiculous. It'd basically be like pretending that gay relationships don't exist - that same sort of idea that if you don't teach kids about sex then they won't do it; or just tell them not to and they won't ... yeah that's it. Shit like this makes me crazy. I don't think these people realize they're living in the 21st century.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121WHAT THE FUSK HAPPENED TO THE SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATEb,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bucs.gif" alt="" 21 b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121extremist xians want to make sure there is no such thing.
Where is Vitamin to stick up for this nonsense? I'd love to hear him try to make even 1 coherent argument against gay marriage. I think even he know's that this is just blatant discrimination.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121WHAT THE FUSK HAPPENED TO THE SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATEb,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bucs.gif" alt="" 21 b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121If gay marriage were legalized, wouldn't that be an example of the interests of the church and state overlapping one another? b,121b,121I'm all for legalizing gay marriage; I'm just not sure a separate of church and state argument works here.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121On my campus some kids where manning a yes on prop 8 booth, that's what caused my thread. I rolled my eyes and muttered "you gotta be f*cking kidding me".b,121b,121but I really want to know what Vitamin, Rockadelic, and Harvey C have to say[/b]. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121My only concern about this is if some judge decides that the will of the people via a democratic vote is "wrong" and overturns the result as they see fit.b,121b,121Personally I'm more concerned with the number of divorced heterosexuals or unmarried Baby's Mommy & Daddy's who's children suffer as a result than whether or not two same sex parties want to get married.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121On my campus some kids where manning a yes on prop 8 booth, that's what caused my thread. I rolled my eyes and muttered "you gotta be f*cking kidding me".b,121b,121but I really want to know what Vitamin, Rockadelic, and Harvey C have to say[/b]. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121My only concern about this is if some judge decides that the will of the people via a democratic vote is "wrong" and overturns the result as they see fit.b,121 b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121I don't know - I think the tyranny of the majority is some real shit. b,121b,121We couldn't even get the f*cking Equal Rights Amendment passed. Ok? b,121b,121You think the Voting Rights Act would have passed a majority vote in Southern states? b,121b,121Or Woman's Suffrage in 1920? b,121b,121Those aren't cases of judicial rulings but the point is that we don't live in a pure democracy and we never have. And frankly, some of the biggest leaps forward in our society have come about through forces other than the voting booth.
b,121On my campus some kids where manning a yes on prop 8 booth, that's what caused my thread. I rolled my eyes and muttered "you gotta be f*cking kidding me".
b,121
b,121
but I really want to know what Vitamin, Rockadelic, and Harvey C have to say/b1. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1
b,121
b,121My only concern about this is if some judge decides that the will of the people via a democratic vote is "wrong" and overturns the result as they see fit.
b,121
b,121Personally I'm more concerned with the number of divorced heterosexuals or unmarried Baby's Mommy & Daddy's who's children suffer as a result than whether or not two same sex parties want to get married.
b,121
b,121
h,121
font class="post"1fb,121b,121b,121b,121yeah thats a pretty flimsy argument my man.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121WHAT THE FUSK HAPPENED TO THE SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATEb,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bucs.gif" alt="" 21 b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121If gay marriage were legalized, wouldn't that be an example of the interests of the church and state overlapping one another? b,121b,121I'm all for legalizing gay marriage; I'm just not sure a separate of church and state argument works here. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121yeah, I wasn't speaking about Prop 8 specifically, moreso about the overall sentiment nationally. The fact that people are arguing against gay marriage on religious grounds is totally against our whole 'freedom of religion' tenet, no? I mean, the pledge of allegiance had no reference to god in it until Nixon changed it, and while I understand the necessity of it, there is way too much pandering to the religious right by candidates for my tastes. Like, F*ck all that noise. The government was not formed to tell people what to believe or be a tool of religion to enforce their world view. It's rather ironic to me that some of the hardest bible-thumping Jesus lovers are so intolerant, when I believe it was Jesus himself said that it doesn't matter if you're Christian, Muslim, Jew, circumsized or not, we are all brothers and sisters.
Most social conservatives don't believe in the separation b/t church and state. Far from it. What you're describing is the libertarian perspective from the conservative "gov't stay out my business!" wing.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121On my campus some kids where manning a yes on prop 8 booth, that's what caused my thread. I rolled my eyes and muttered "you gotta be f*cking kidding me".b,121b,121but I really want to know what Vitamin, Rockadelic, and Harvey C have to say[/b]. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121My only concern about this is if some judge decides that the will of the people via a democratic vote is "wrong" and overturns the result as they see fit.b,121 b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121I don't know - I think the tyranny of the majority is some real shit. b,121b,121We couldn't even get the f*cking Equal Rights Amendment passed. Ok? b,121b,121You think the Voting Rights Act would have passed a majority vote in Southern states? b,121b,121Or Woman's Suffrage in 1920? b,121b,121Those aren't cases of judicial rulings but the point is that we don't live in a pure democracy and we never have. And frankly, some of the biggest leaps forward in our society have come about through forces other than the voting booth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121If the government is going to dictate a law....just go ahead and do it.b,121b,121Don't ask the people to vote and then say, your vote is wrong we're going to overturn it.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121On my campus some kids where manning a yes on prop 8 booth, that's what caused my thread. I rolled my eyes and muttered "you gotta be f*cking kidding me".b,121b,121but I really want to know what Vitamin, Rockadelic, and Harvey C have to say[/b]. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121My only concern about this is if some judge decides that the will of the people via a democratic vote is "wrong" and overturns the result as they see fit.b,121b,121Personally I'm more concerned with the number of divorced heterosexuals or unmarried Baby's Mommy & Daddy's who's children suffer as a result than whether or not two same sex parties want to get married. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1fb,121b,121b,121b,121yeah thats a pretty flimsy argument my man. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121It wasn't an argument.....my man.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Most social conservatives don't believe in the separation b/t church and state. Far from it. What you're describing is the libertarian perspective from the conservative "gov't stay out my business!" wing. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Agreed. although I'd say it should be 'stay out of my PERSONAL business' not 'stay out of my monopoly'b,121b,121Interesting side note: the cover article of Newsweek this week is about the fact that even if Obama wins, he'll be governing a conservative nation, and that has been a major problem for liberal politicians who just don't want to face the facts.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121If the government is going to dictate a law....just go ahead and do it.b,121b,121Don't ask the people to vote and then say, your vote is wrong we're going to overturn it. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Well, I'd be happy to see CA roll back the ability to put initiatives on the ballot. In the last 10+ years, I've seen some incredibly socially regressive legislation get passed (or try to get passed) on their basis. Unfortunately, post Prop 13, there's too much of a populist interest in maintaining its use which just means that you're likely to continue to see this battle between initiatives, judges and a legislature that's often times too timid to weigh in; they get to pass the buck.
is there perhaps a financial push by the state because of the loss in tax revenue? i mean, im not up on my economics but isnt there some sort of tax break involved when 2 people get married? and wouldnt this somehow decrease revenue if 2 people decided to up and marry? im just wondering. theyre pushing this shit on some ethical jesus shit, but maybe theres more behind it than just that.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121If the government is going to dictate a law....just go ahead and do it.b,121b,121Don't ask the people to vote and then say, your vote is wrong we're going to overturn it. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Well, I'd be happy to see CA roll back the ability to put initiatives on the ballot. In the last 10+ years, I've seen some incredibly socially regressive legislation get passed (or try to get passed) on their basis. Unfortunately, post Prop 13, there's too much of a populist interest in maintaining its use which just means that you're likely to continue to see this battle between initiatives, judges and a legislature that's often times too timid to weigh in; they get to pass the buck. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Yeah its not like they are saying "hey vote on this.... SYKE! OVERRULED BITCHES HAHAHAHAH!"b,121b,121Some dumbass finds a way to get it on a ballot and then we have to vote that bullshit down even though honestly I don't know how it made it on there in the first place. I vaguely remember somebody talking about the about what it took to get that prop on there and how it got challenged and then they said OK you can put it on there and blah blah blah.b,121b,121So the flimsyness is that the supreme court, who will be overturning if it passes didn't "ask" us to vote on it.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121The first guy asked me that if we let same sex couples exists then what's next marrying your dog? I told him if that dog can actually say the words "I want to marry you" then yes.b,121b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/know.gif" alt="" 21
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121The first guy asked me that if we let same sex couples exists then what's next marrying your dog? I told him if that dog can actually say the words "I want to marry you" then yes.b,121b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/know.gif" alt="" 21 b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121"says 'i love you' on command"...b,121b,121b,121 img src="http://z.about.com/d/tvcomedies/1/0/n/5/-/-/homer_simpson.jpg"1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121The first guy asked me that if we let same sex couples exists then what's next marrying your dog? I told him if that dog can actually say the words "I want to marry you" then yes.b,121b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121lmhob,121so gays and lesbians fall somewhere between humans and dogs/animals? b,121hmmmm, sounds familiar...
also, the argument "marriage is already devoid of any meaning in American society, so might as well let the gays do it, too!" never really sat right with me.b,121b,121while I see the utility of this argument, I imagine a lot homosexuals wishing to marry would prefer to view marriage as the sacred rite that so many anti-gay-marriage activists [purport to] view it as, and not as some debased institution that anyone should be allowed to partake in.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121also, the argument "marriage is already devoid of any meaning in American society, so might as well let the gays do it, too!" never really sat right with me.b,121b,121while I see the utility of this argument, I imagine a lot homosexuals wishing to marry would prefer to view marriage as the sacred rite that so many anti-gay-marriage activists [purport to] view it as, and not as some debased institution that anyone should be allowed to partake in. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121That's a good point. Well said.
I think the argument that "Why shouldn't they have the right to be as miserable as I am" is funny.b,121b,121b,121Thats not my view by the way. I love all my wives.
um...b,121b,121maybe this has already been mentioned but VOTE YES On 8 Banners are all up on Soulstrut.b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bucs.gif" alt="" 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icegrill.gif" alt="" 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wtf.gif" alt="" 21
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