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Being Muslim in America

dayday 9,611 Posts
edited October 2008 in Strut Central
Must suck. b,121b,121People who follow a religion that's over a thousand years old and the 2nd largest in the world are now "terrorists" or un-American in many people's minds. I mean really, this is absurd. I'm not downplaying the impact of Sept. 11th, but someone tell me how this happened? It's now 8 years later and nothing has changed. Saying someone is Muslim or follows Islam is something that has be whispered or kept secret. The fact that people have been trying to tie Obama to the religion is all the proof you need that things are on a whole other level. But what I'm talking about goes beyond the current election.b,121b,121I've been to Mosque when I was a teenager and had neighbors and friends who were Muslim (at least for a minute!) and found that it wasn't for me, but what I learned is that at it's core, it's a very peaceful and accepting religion - despite what many people think. b,121b,121Anyway, I'm babbling, but I think it needs to be addressed more than it has been. I'm sure reading the WAPO comments on the latest Palin story isn't helping any. b,121b,121/font1
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b,121As a curious side-note, if you go to William Ayers??? main website (CLICK HERE), you will notice a very prominent name in the middle of the page: ABU-ZAYD.
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b,121For those of you who are not familiar with Islamic culture, the name means ???FATHER OF ZAYD??? and it is Ayers OTHER name. As you may have noticed above, Ayers has two children which he raised as Muslims (Malik and Zayd).
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font class="post"1b,121b,121etc. etc.b,121b,121b,121img src="http://www.reachmuslimswith.us/images/AmericanMuslim.jpg"1b,121b,121Discuss

  Comments

  • high_chigh_c 1,384 Posts
    iframe width=500 height=200 src=http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CMjTkcrhlaeWbRDYBRhaMggtvUi6aun9aw1/iframe1b,121b,121dunno. like the ad though on this thread.
  • pcmrpcmr 5,591 Posts
    your right i mean discrimination reaches all across the West and the muslim faith has had some bad practices associated wonrfully to itb,121b,121"dont go out with a muslim guy he will make you his slave"b,121the list goes on and onb,121b,121but i mean here in canada, ramadan dinners are served/celebrated in all universities and public placesb,121b,121must not be the same in the good ole USAb,121b,121muslims mst really be on some secretive shitb,121b,121its a shame to not learn and share in such a rich culture
  • DJ_EnkiDJ_Enki 6,471 Posts
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    b,121Must suck.
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121For real.b,121b,121I have the same problems with Islam that I have with every other organized religion, plus other big-picture issues with it, but on the individual level, I've never had anything but positive experiences with Muslims I have known through the years. It's a shame that they have to deal with such pervasive--and accepted--hatred.
  • Options
    Unknown
    The Japanese internment camps of the 40s = Guantanamo b,121b,121History will vindicate the Muslim way of life to those who currently fear it. b,121b,121Until then, I can't imagine how shitty it must be at times to live as a Muslim in the US. Poor Sikhs are confused for Muslims and get crapped on as well. b,121b,121I gently urge you to be just a little kinder to your Muslim and Sikh brothers and sisters out there. They need it. You need it. b,121b,121img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/646.gif" alt="" /1 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headz.gif" alt="" /1
  • bull_oxbull_ox 5,056 Posts
    I'm sure some of you must've received the anti-Islam propaganda DVD that was included w/a lot of American newspapers a couple weeks ago. Somehow I missed it (guess I threw it out w/the other ads) but I've read a couple follow-up articles on it, they can't even figure out who's really behind it... obviously there's a lot of speculation though especially considering the timing.b,121b,121We got TWO of them in the mail the other day, so I guess they're really trying to get this thing into everybody's hands. I can't decide whether or not to try to check it out based on what I've read... it sounds super offensive. Hard to imagine a group getting away w/this in the U.S. if it were a Christian or Jewish faith being demonized.
  • SouthCrackalackSouthCrackalack 3,853 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121I'm sure some of you must've received the anti-Islam propaganda DVD that was included w/a lot of American newspapers a couple weeks ago. Somehow I missed it (guess I threw it out w/the other ads) but I've read a couple follow-up articles on it, they can't even figure out who's really behind it... obviously there's a lot of speculation though especially considering the timing.
    b,121
    b,121We got TWO of them in the mail the other day, so I guess they're really trying to get this thing into everybody's hands. I can't decide whether or not to try to check it out based on what I've read... it sounds super offensive. Hard to imagine a group getting away w/this in the U.S. if it were a Christian or Jewish faith being demonized.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121First i've heard of this.
  • SaracenusSaracenus 671 Posts
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    b,121I'm sure some of you must've received the anti-Islam propaganda DVD that was included w/a lot of American newspapers a couple weeks ago.
    SNIP1
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121First i've heard of this.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121My mom got one in the Oregonian last Sunday. Here is an article about it.b,121b,121a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/04/newspapers-criticized-for_n_131920.html" target="_blank"1http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/04/newspapers-criticized-for_n_131920.html/a1
  • hemolhemol 2,578 Posts
    We got four or five to our house, both through the papers, and just randomly in the post. I had set it aside to scan for samples, but didn't get around to it before they were all trashed. img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badassbuddy_com-riaa.gif" alt="" /1
  • GuzzoGuzzo 8,611 Posts
    back in either 2002 or '03 I started a production company with 2 fellow film students. Both of them were muslim (one a palestinain jordanian, the other a Irish convert). Because both my partners were fairly religious we got our very first gig making a documentary at the islamic center of Claremont (near Los Angeles). As you may imagine, there was a high amount of paranoia amongst the attendees of the mosque, some of the incidents I was privy to included police visits, and threats from the senior citizens at the retirement home across the street. These may not sound all that harsh, but mind you this is just a place of worship/ preschool, and I doubt may baptist churches or Montessori schools face this on the daily. The mood there became one of keeping things insular, it was very apparent to the people there.b,121b,121I felt sorry for those there and hope that in the years since things have gotten easier, but I wouldn't bank on it.b,121b,121I wonder how it in Dearborn, MI
  • FrankFrank 2,370 Posts
    I would never support any hatred towards anybody for the mere fact that he or she is a muslim. I have friends who are muslims, spent 3 years in a muslim country and had hours and hours worth of discussions with muslims about their religion and their personal way of interpreting the many rules and laws that come with it.b,121b,121I personally have the opinion that every single spreading religion is potentially dangerous to the culture, freedom and life of other people.b,121b,121There is no religion that has ever been responsible for anything positive in the history of mankind. Religions are tools of power that are being used by organised groups that try to seize control over teritories without being elected. Therefore the core idea of almost every religion is fashist.b,121b,121Most countries that today are islamic had another religion before. Those other religions were sometimes much, much older than islam and were whiped out with the arrival of islam. Valuable artifact were destroyed, those who did not want to convert were killed. That was the standart procedure. Islam is cultural genocide and in many cases real genocide against people with other beliefs.b,121b,121Some idiots who don't know what they're talking about are crying "protect islam, islam is a peaceful religion". No it's not. Islam is not a peaceful religion. The kind of peace how it is understood by islam is the peace that there will be when all the infidels are gone and the entire world is islamic. Oh, of course I know some of you might say that that's not true and how some muslims see islam as a religion of tolerance and personal freedom. I say bullshit! For any moderate muslim who wants to "just get along" i can show you some fashist with another religious or philosophical background who claims that he doesn't have anything against people with other beliefs or opinions. Look where muslims are in a majority and find out how comfortable any person with another belief feels.b,121b,121All this PC talk in the so called Western world about how islam means peace and how this religion needs to be protected from evil anti-islamists makes me want to puke.b,121b,121I would never say that i hate muslims. I feel pitty for them and how they have to mess up their entire life experience with some bullshit religion like that. I hate islam. i hate what islam has done in many parts of this world, i hate how people who openly go against this "religion" have to fear for their lifes. I hate how for example in Africa, people are pressured into adapting muslim names and denying their own ancient religion and culture. I hate this stupid, brainwashing "allaahuakkkbarrr" screetching and yelling through distorted loudspeekers at 4:30 every morning. I hate how mosques are being built with saudi money in remote villages that have no real school and no hospital. I hate how children are being brainwashed by being forced to repeat arabic verses when they're not even able to read a newspaper in the official language of their country. Islam is all about power, it's a cultural war and the people who run this war see every muslim as a soldier.b,121b,121Islam is already powerful enough to have a censoring influence in the European media. Anybody followed this whole bullshit scandal, outcry and self-censoring in many European countries about this silly mohamed caricature controversy...b,121b,121Where was the outcry when Dutch film maker and fierce anti ilsamist Theo van Gogh was butchered by a morocccan muslim who first shot him 8 times in broad daylight on a public street, then sat on his chest and proceeded to cut the deadly wounded man's throat and then calmly cut up the dead man's face and repeatedly stabbed his chest for another 10+ minutes before he finally got dragged away by cops.b,121img src="http://www.thefileroom.org/images/theo-van-gogh_web.jpg"1b,121b,121I can't stand christianity either but at least that shit ain't dangerous anymore.
  • matamaticmatamatic 488 Posts
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    b,121I would never support any hatred towards anybody for the mere fact that he or she is a muslim. I have friends who are muslims, spent 3 years in a muslim country and had hours and hours worth of discussions with muslims about their religion and their personal way of interpreting the many rules and laws that come with it.
    b,121
    b,121I personally have the opinion that every single spreading religion is potentially dangerous to the culture, freedom and life of other people.
    b,121
    b,121There is no religion that has ever been responsible for anything positive in the history of mankind. Religions are tools of power that are being used by organised groups that try to seize control over teritories without being elected. Therefore the core idea of almost every religion is fashist.
    b,121
    b,121Most countries that today are islamic had another religion before. Those other religions were sometimes much, much older than islam and were whiped out with the arrival of islam. Valuable artifact were destroyed, those who did not want to convert were killed. That was the standart procedure. Islam is cultural genocide and in many cases real genocide against people with other beliefs.
    b,121
    b,121Some idiots who don't know what they're talking about are crying "protect islam, islam is a peaceful religion". No it's not. Islam is not a peaceful religion. The kind of peace how it is understood by islam is the peace that there will be when all the infidels are gone and the entire world is islamic. Oh, of course I know some of you might say that that's not true and how some muslims see islam as a religion of tolerance and personal freedom. I say bullshit! For any moderate muslim who wants to "just get along" i can show you some fashist with another religious or philosophical background who claims that he doesn't have anything against people with other beliefs or opinions. Look where muslims are in a majority and find out how comfortable any person with another belief feels.
    b,121
    b,121All this PC talk in the so called Western world about how islam means peace and how this religion needs to be protected from evil anti-islamists makes me want to puke.
    b,121
    b,121I would never say that i hate muslims. I feel pitty for them and how they have to mess up their entire life experience with some bullshit religion like that. I hate islam. i hate what islam has done in many parts of this world, i hate how people who openly go against this "religion" have to fear for their lifes. I hate how for example in Africa, people are pressured into adapting muslim names and denying their own ancient religion and culture. I hate this stupid, brainwashing "allaahuakkkbarrr" screetching and yelling through distorted loudspeekers at 4:30 every morning. I hate how mosques are being built with saudi money in remote villages that have no real school and no hospital. I hate how children are being brainwashed by being forced to repeat arabic verses when they're not even able to read a newspaper in the official language of their country. Islam is all about power, it's a cultural war and the people who run this war see every muslim as a soldier.
    b,121
    b,121Islam is already powerful enough to have a censoring influence in the European media. Anybody followed this whole bullshit scandal, outcry and self-censoring in many European countries about this silly mohamed caricature controversy...
    b,121
    b,121Where was the outcry when Dutch film maker and fierce anti ilsamist Theo van Gogh was butchered by a morocccan muslim who first shot him 8 times in broad daylight on a public street, then sat on his chest and proceeded to cut the deadly wounded man's throat and then calmly cut up the dead man's face and repeatedly stabbed his chest for another 10+ minutes before he finally got dragged away by cops.
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121I can't stand christianity either but at least that shit ain't dangerous anymore.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121WOW.... Islam ain't my thing but damn!
  • JimsterJimster Cruffiton.etsy.com 6,892 Posts
    When I was a teenager, I met a mate's "Wierd" older brother who my mate said was a devil-worshipper (he wore shades indoors and pentagrams and all that). He said all religions were "Like Father Christmas for grown-ups."
  • Ex-BoyfriendEx-Boyfriend 795 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121I'm sure some of you must've received the anti-Islam propaganda DVD that was included w/a lot of American newspapers a couple weeks ago. Somehow I missed it (guess I threw it out w/the other ads) but I've read a couple
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121No, it was a documentary about radical islam. If you were smart, like dolo, you might be cognisant of the fact that by deriding attacks on islamic radicalism as being attacks on islam itself you are tacitly claiming that radical islam is the true and authentic face of islam writ large. It is hard to think of something that would be more offensive to muslims than that.b,121b,121By the by, i'd actually like to see some empirical support for the consensus view that anti-islamic sentiment has soared to dizzying levels. Id guess that prejudicial views of muslims increased post 9-11, but id also guess that the idea that the average muslim faces day to day hell due is largely a manifestation of a prejudice of your own: Namely, the belief that a large part of your fellow countrymen are small minded yokels prone to bigotry, violence and general oafishness.b,121b,121Just through a quick googling the first thing that came up was the FBI's hate crime figures for 2006 a href="http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/table1.html" target="_blank"1here/a1. It lists 191 offenses of an anti islamic nature, that is only one fifth the number of anti-jewish offenses. According to estimates there are roughly the same number of jews as muslims in america(6 million jews, 7 million muslims)
  • JimsterJimster Cruffiton.etsy.com 6,892 Posts
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    b,121I had set it aside to scan for samples
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121A+
  • subsub 311 Posts
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    b,121I would never support any hatred towards anybody for the mere fact that he or she is a muslim. I have friends who are muslims, spent 3 years in a muslim country and had hours and hours worth of discussions with muslims about their religion and their personal way of interpreting the many rules and laws that come with it.
    b,121
    b,121I personally have the opinion that every single spreading religion is potentially dangerous to the culture, freedom and life of other people.
    b,121
    b,121There is no religion that has ever been responsible for anything positive in the history of mankind. Religions are tools of power that are being used by organised groups that try to seize control over teritories without being elected. Therefore the core idea of almost every religion is fashist.
    b,121
    b,121Most countries that today are islamic had another religion before. Those other religions were sometimes much, much older than islam and were whiped out with the arrival of islam. Valuable artifact were destroyed, those who did not want to convert were killed. That was the standart procedure. Islam is cultural genocide and in many cases real genocide against people with other beliefs.
    b,121
    b,121Some idiots who don't know what they're talking about are crying "protect islam, islam is a peaceful religion". No it's not. Islam is not a peaceful religion. The kind of peace how it is understood by islam is the peace that there will be when all the infidels are gone and the entire world is islamic. Oh, of course I know some of you might say that that's not true and how some muslims see islam as a religion of tolerance and personal freedom. I say bullshit! For any moderate muslim who wants to "just get along" i can show you some fashist with another religious or philosophical background who claims that he doesn't have anything against people with other beliefs or opinions. Look where muslims are in a majority and find out how comfortable any person with another belief feels.
    b,121
    b,121All this PC talk in the so called Western world about how islam means peace and how this religion needs to be protected from evil anti-islamists makes me want to puke.
    b,121
    b,121I would never say that i hate muslims. I feel pitty for them and how they have to mess up their entire life experience with some bullshit religion like that. I hate islam. i hate what islam has done in many parts of this world, i hate how people who openly go against this "religion" have to fear for their lifes. I hate how for example in Africa, people are pressured into adapting muslim names and denying their own ancient religion and culture. I hate this stupid, brainwashing "allaahuakkkbarrr" screetching and yelling through distorted loudspeekers at 4:30 every morning. I hate how mosques are being built with saudi money in remote villages that have no real school and no hospital. I hate how children are being brainwashed by being forced to repeat arabic verses when they're not even able to read a newspaper in the official language of their country. Islam is all about power, it's a cultural war and the people who run this war see every muslim as a soldier.
    b,121
    b,121Islam is already powerful enough to have a censoring influence in the European media. Anybody followed this whole bullshit scandal, outcry and self-censoring in many European countries about this silly mohamed caricature controversy...
    b,121
    b,121Where was the outcry when Dutch film maker and fierce anti ilsamist Theo van Gogh was butchered by a morocccan muslim who first shot him 8 times in broad daylight on a public street, then sat on his chest and proceeded to cut the deadly wounded man's throat and then calmly cut up the dead man's face and repeatedly stabbed his chest for another 10+ minutes before he finally got dragged away by cops.
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121I can't stand christianity either but at least that shit ain't dangerous anymore.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121i can see you standpoint (well hard not too -lol-) but i think it simplifies it a lil too much. i agree that religion that follows the aim to dictate the law booth in the spiritual and the political sphere is a danger to the freedom of every society. on top i personally don't want religion in my life what so ever. but as long as islam is just like christianity nowadays a private issue not interfering with politics i can accept it. by now there are not too many examples for that but if you see what the situtation in turkey is like you can see that there is the chance to have a secularized version of the islam.b,121b,121besides that i think it's important to mention that through out history the islam has been way more tolerant with other religions that christianity if you for example study the case of the jews in the last centuries.
  • subsub 311 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121Where was the outcry when Dutch film maker and fierce anti ilsamist Theo van Gogh was butchered by a morocccan muslim who first shot him 8 times in broad daylight on a public street, then sat on his chest and proceeded to cut the deadly wounded man's throat and then calmly cut up the dead man's face and repeatedly stabbed his chest for another 10+ minutes before he finally got dragged away by cops.
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121I can't stand christianity either but at least that shit ain't dangerous anymore.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121i guess it does not really mater but he was shoot (i don't know how many times) and then stabed with a knive twice before the murderer scribed some words on his cheest. he was not arrested on sight though but some blocks away after a shooting with the police. like i said. it doesn't matter but the way you described it is not correct.b,121b,121and there way quite an outcry in germany by the way and a massive outcry in the netherlands.b,121b,121rest in peace theo van googh
  • kalakala 3,361 Posts
    the thing i don't understand -especially in europe is all of this muslim hate directed at the host[western] countries within which they themselves HAVE CHOSEN TO LIVEb,121b,121why in fact did you and your families opt to move from your utopic muslim state [morocco,UA,SA,Iran,etc]to holland/spain/The UK etc and then start to complain,protest and demonstrate against the host country?b,121b,121if you don't like it either don't move there or try to intergrate into the fabric of the host[western]country.b,121b,121it seems bassackwards and a rather mis-directed and a contrived show of hate/violence and stupidity.Yet the host country must make obvious social consessions and give these people "special treatment"b,121b,121imagine if westerners moved to saudi arabia and started protesting against the archaic customs and lifestyles practiced and forced upon the general populaceb,121they would be swiftly beheaded/deported and imprisonedb,121b,121in iran they hang homosexualsb,121a href="http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Execution_of_two_gay_teens_in_Iran_spurs_controversy" target="_blank"1http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Execution_of_two_gay_teens_in_Iran_spurs_controversy/a1b,121women are exexcuted for "witchcraft and sorcery" in saudi arabia b,121a href="http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/14/saudia18051.htm" target="_blank"1http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/14/saudia18051.htm/a1b,121F*ck them and their midevil bullshit
  • DelayDelay 4,530 Posts
    Two things control populations. The answer to the unknown (religon) and energy. The Saudis control both, but we're no better. The separation of Church and state and energy dependance are absolutely necesary for us to survive as a nation.
  • salviasalvia 279 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121Where was the outcry when Dutch film maker and fierce anti ilsamist Theo van Gogh was butchered by a morocccan muslim who first shot him 8 times in broad daylight on a public street, then sat on his chest and proceeded to cut the deadly wounded man's throat and then calmly cut up the dead man's face and repeatedly stabbed his chest for another 10+ minutes before he finally got dragged away by cops.
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Where were you when this happened? There was massive outcry here in Holland at the time. Or did you expect outcry in other countries for a murder over here? That seems rather far-fetched, in my opinion. b,121b,121Also, you seem to have dramatized the account as someone else pointed out. He did not stab him for 10+ minutes and he was never dragged away from the scene. Instead, he was arrested close to a nearby park.
  • subsub 311 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121Where was the outcry when Dutch film maker and fierce anti ilsamist Theo van Gogh was butchered by a morocccan muslim who first shot him 8 times in broad daylight on a public street, then sat on his chest and proceeded to cut the deadly wounded man's throat and then calmly cut up the dead man's face and repeatedly stabbed his chest for another 10+ minutes before he finally got dragged away by cops.
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1
    b,121
    b,121Where were you when this happened? There was massive outcry here in Holland at the time. Or did you expect outcry in other countries for a murder over here? That seems rather far-fetched, in my opinion.
    b,121
    b,121Also, you seem to have dramatized the account as someone else pointed out. He did not stab him for 10+ minutes and he was never dragged away from the scene. Instead, he was arrested close to a nearby park.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121even though i pointed out the inaccurency in the descirbtion of the crime too i wouldn't use the expression "dramatized". the murder was so dramatic itself that the actual way how he was murdered doesn't need to get dramatised. either way it has been a huge tragedy.....
  • FrankFrank 2,370 Posts
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    h,121
    b,121
    b,121
    b,121Also, you seem to have dramatized the account as someone else pointed out. He did not stab him for 10+ minutes and he was never dragged away from the scene. Instead, he was arrested close to a nearby park.
    b,121
    b,121
    h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121okay, I was wrong about him being arrested at the scene, you're right, the killer was arrested in a nearby park. Doesn't really change anything, does it? He did stay with the body of his victim for several minutes, carving it up in front of bystanders.b,121b,121NIS news bulletin:b,121"The 26 year old perpetrator was arrested. According to an eye-witness, he stood for several minutes bent over Van Gogh until he was dead, and only then fled. The killer reportedly left Van Gogh with two knives in his chest, one with a letter affixed to it. "b,121b,121Of course there was an outcry in the Netherlands. there wasn't much in Germany, I was there at the time.b,121b,121Which islamic groups publicly condemmed this horrendous butchery?
  • street_muzikstreet_muzik 3,919 Posts
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    b,121the thing i don't understand -especially in europe is all of this muslim hate directed at the host[western] countries within which they themselves HAVE CHOSEN TO LIVE
    b,121
    b,121why in fact did you and your families opt to move from your utopic muslim state [morocco,UA,SA,Iran,etc]to holland/spain/The UK etc and then start to complain,protest and demonstrate against the host country?
    b,121
    b,121if you don't like it either don't move there or try to intergrate into the fabric of the host[western]country.
    b,121
    b,121it seems bassackwards and a rather mis-directed and a contrived show of hate/violence and stupidity.Yet the host country must make obvious social consessions and give these people "special treatment"
    b,121
    b,121imagine if westerners moved to saudi arabia and started protesting against the archaic customs and lifestyles practiced and forced upon the general populace
    b,121they would be swiftly beheaded/deported and imprisoned
    b,121
    b,121in iran they hang homosexuals
    b,121
    b,121women are exexcuted for "witchcraft and sorcery" in saudi arabia
    b,121
    b,121F*ck them and their midevil bullshit
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121Perhaps the hate you describe is a response to discrimination.
  • salviasalvia 279 Posts
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    b,121Where was the outcry when Dutch film maker and fierce anti ilsamist Theo van Gogh was butchered by a morocccan muslim who first shot him 8 times in broad daylight on a public street, then sat on his chest and proceeded to cut the deadly wounded man's throat and then calmly cut up the dead man's face and repeatedly stabbed his chest for another 10+ minutes before he finally got dragged away by cops.
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    b,121Where were you when this happened? There was massive outcry here in Holland at the time. Or did you expect outcry in other countries for a murder over here? That seems rather far-fetched, in my opinion.
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    b,121Also, you seem to have dramatized the account as someone else pointed out. He did not stab him for 10+ minutes and he was never dragged away from the scene. Instead, he was arrested close to a nearby park.
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    b,121even though i pointed out the inaccurency in the descirbtion of the crime too i wouldn't use the expression "dramatized". the murder was so dramatic itself that the actual way how he was murdered doesn't need to get dramatised. either way it has been a huge tragedy.....
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121Sorry, didn't want to put words in your mouth.
  • salviasalvia 279 Posts
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    b,121Also, you seem to have dramatized the account as someone else pointed out. He did not stab him for 10+ minutes and he was never dragged away from the scene. Instead, he was arrested close to a nearby park.
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    b,121okay, I was wrong about him being arrested at the scene, you're right, the killer was arrested in a nearby park. Doesn't really change anything, does it? He did stay with the body of his victim for several minutes, carving it up in front of bystanders.
    b,121
    b,121NIS news bulletin:
    b,121"The 26 year old perpetrator was arrested. According to an eye-witness, he stood for several minutes bent over Van Gogh until he was dead, and only then fled. The killer reportedly left Van Gogh with two knives in his chest, one with a letter affixed to it. "
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    b,121Of course there was an outcry in the Netherlands. there wasn't much in Germany, I was there at the time.
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    b,121Which islamic groups publicly condemmed this horrendous butchery?
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121Why should there be any outcry over this in germany? You make it out like it was some kind of terrorist attack, when in fact it was a vengeful murder. I'm not trying to downplay this brutal murder. I just dont understand your viewpoint.b,121b,121And lots of Dutch islamic groups have publicly condemned this of course. I don't see why any foreign islamic groups should do so though.
  • rootlesscosmorootlesscosmo 12,848 Posts
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    b,121Why should there be any outcry over this in germany? You make it out like it was some kind of terrorist attack, when in fact it was a vengeful murder. I'm not trying to downplay this brutal murder. I just dont understand your viewpoint.
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121dude. this was way more than a "vengeful murder." it's not like the killer caught van gough with his wife. this was deliberate attempt to intimidate and silence critics of Islam. it's why Hirsi Ali has bodyguards. it's why no one will publish "Jewel of the Medina." it's why those cartoons led to 100 dead people.b,121b,121just saying; no need to mischaracterize it.
  • salviasalvia 279 Posts
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    b,121Why should there be any outcry over this in germany? You make it out like it was some kind of terrorist attack, when in fact it was a vengeful murder. I'm not trying to downplay this brutal murder. I just dont understand your viewpoint.
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    b,121dude. this was way more than a "vengeful murder." it's not like the killer caught van gough with his wife. this was deliberate attempt to intimidate and silence critics of Islam. it's why Hirsi Ali has bodyguards. it's why no one will publish "Jewel of the Medina." it's why those cartoons led to 100 dead people.
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    b,121just saying; no need to mischaracterize it.
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121You mischaracterize it by comparing it to an adultery murder. Lots of murders are meant to intimidate or silence certain individuals. I'm not justifying the murder in any way. Now, what does this murder have to do with those cartoons? And i have to look into "Jewel of the Medina". Never heard of it before.
  • rootlesscosmorootlesscosmo 12,848 Posts
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    b,121 Lots of murders are meant to intimidate or silence certain individuals.
    b,121
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121and my point is that while the act/b1 was directed at one individual, the message /b1 was intended for a much larger audience, i.e. all of us.b,121b,121and if you don't see the connection between a dude getting killed for legally expressing views critical of radical Islam, and a wave of deadly riots in response to legally expressing views critical of radical Islam, I don't know what to tell you.
  • salviasalvia 279 Posts
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    b,121 Lots of murders are meant to intimidate or silence certain individuals.
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    b,121and my point is that while the
    act/b1 was directed at one individual, the message /b1 was intended for a much larger audience, i.e. all of us.b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121That's your interpretation. He was offended personally on religious grounds by Theo van Gogh's film and his anti-islam columns.b,121b,121/font1
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    b,121and if you don't see the connection between a dude getting killed for legally expressing views critical of radical Islam, and a wave of deadly riots in response to legally expressing views critical of radical Islam, I don't know what to tell you.
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    font class="post"1b,121 "why"
  • rootlesscosmorootlesscosmo 12,848 Posts
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    "why" b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121"as if" there was a connection!b,121b,121I am backing out of this thread.b,121b,121cheers, holmeses.
  • OkemOkem 4,617 Posts
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    b,121 Lots of murders are meant to intimidate or silence certain individuals.
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    b,121and my point is that while the
    act/b1 was directed at one individual, the message /b1 was intended for a much larger audience, i.e. all of us.b,121b,121and if you don't see the connection between a dude getting killed for legally expressing views critical of radical Islam, and a wave of deadly riots in response to legally expressing views critical of radical Islam, I don't know what to tell you. b,121b,121h,121
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    "why" b,121b,121h,121
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    b,121"as if" there was a connection!
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    b, 21I am backing out of this thread.
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    b,121cheers, holmeses.
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    font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121I agree with you about the murder of Theo Van Gogh. But it was mainly Muslim people dying when the Police, of their country, shot at them during protests. How does this say anything about a "deliberate attempt to intimidate and silence critics of Islam" Surely it says more about the systems and societies that these event occurred in.b,121b,121You've done a good job there of putting together some disparate circumstances to form a rather fallacious argument. But it's verging on anti Islamic propaganda.
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