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Sustainability.

twoplytwoply Only Built 4 Manzanita Links 2,914 Posts
edited September 2008 in Strut Central
I've been hearing/reading this word a lot over the past few years. I think it's the new "organic". b,121b,121Can anyone provide me with examples of truly sustainable projects, buildings, services? Or communities with genuine sustainable living? b,121b,121This isn't rhetorical. I'm looking to get in touch with the reality of this concept.
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  • Guantanamo_JonesGuantanamo_Jones 177 Posts
    a href="http://www.commonrootscafe.com/" target="_blank"1http://www.commonrootscafe.com/ a restaurant/coffee shop in the yuppier side of south minneapolis. I think like 80-90% of the food is from local farms and everything in the place is made of recycled cardboard. They also compost everything that can be composted including all the plastic in the facility which is bio degradable. I don't work there and I actually haven't hit that place up in a few months... but I rep it to the utmost.
  • Mr. CasualMr. Casual 953 Posts
    You can look it up on the interwebs a href="http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CMSPageID=1718" target="_blank"1HERE
  • twoplytwoply Only Built 4 Manzanita Links 2,914 Posts
    While it sounds like a great place, I don't think that coffee shop fits the definition of sustainable. I'd call it "green" for consuming fewer resources than the average coffee shop, but it's still a net loss. b,121b,121As for unclesanchez' picture, I can't imagine that sort of lifestyle even being possible anymore. Any land fertile enough for Indians to survive on sustainably and unaided would never be given back to them. Not in a million years of civilization.
  • twoplytwoply Only Built 4 Manzanita Links 2,914 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121You can look it up on the interwebs a href="http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CMSPageID=1718" target="_blank"1HERE b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121Again, I'm not talking about environmentally friendly, or "green," I'm talking about sustainability, meaning the ability to sustain something indefinitely.
  • UnconSciUnconSci 824 Posts
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    Quote:/font1h,121b,121This isn't rhetorical. I'm looking to get in touch with the reality of this concept. b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Everything that comprises your business is something that can be re-created through nature at an unlimited rate. Thats the ultimate goal I guess.. that your business would get its power through some re-newable form.... you would produce products from recycled material or recyclable material... You would off-set any pollution you create... minimize and utilize waste.... Its ultimately a concept that ends with every structure being completely independent of a grid... and that each structure creates and utilizes waste in a method that everything we consume would be utilized to its fullest extent. Watch "Garbage Warrior" dude creates self sustainable houses... its pretty cool and inspiring.
  • discos_almadiscos_alma discos_alma 2,164 Posts
    Anything that doesn't involve humans.b,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/WHYMUSTICRY.gif" alt="" 21
  • hemolhemol 2,578 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121I've been hearing/reading this word a lot over the past few years. I think it's the new "organic". b,121b,121Can anyone provide me with examples of truly sustainable projects, buildings, services? Or communities with genuine sustainable living? b,121b,121This isn't rhetorical. I'm looking to get in touch with the reality of this concept. b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Seriously, read Buckminster Fuller's "Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth", it's under 100 pages (or thereabouts). He pre-dates the fad by a good fifty years.
  • kennykenny 1,024 Posts
    As a town planner, there are ways that could turn a community to a more sustainable living environment, with Green Architecture, water treatment technologies, energy efficient neighborhoods and renewal strategies etc., sure anything is possible to achieve sustainable development outcomes at this day and age.b,121b,121But one of the challenges though, I think, at the end of the day, our living environment changes as our society and environment changes, how is it possible to constantly involve resources and money into developing new ways to tackle more problems to achieve sustainable outcomes?b,121b,121And also, who's willing to fork out all the money to do all these for the benefit of the "community"?b,121b,121Not many are willing to do so I'm afriad, except maybe European countries like Sweden or Netherlands.b,121b,121b,121b,121
  • GnarliamentGnarliament 375 Posts
    NOT corn- based ethanol.
  • twoplytwoply Only Built 4 Manzanita Links 2,914 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121Seriously, read Buckminster Fuller's "Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth", it's under 100 pages (or thereabouts). He pre-dates the fad by a good fifty years. b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121Hasn't Bucky received criticism, though, for his plans to peacefully decentralize the world's resources? Can that truly be done in a fair and even fashion? b,121b,121I'm interested in things which really work. b,121b,121Unconsci: I've never heard of Garbage Warrior, but I'll check it out. I've seen other plans for sustainable houses which could be mass marketed, but I wonder how long they would need to be functional in order to counter the resources used in their own manufacture. I also wonder how much maintenance they require.
  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
    I$$, I wrote my master's thesis on Nike's Sustainability Program (you'd all be shocked at what they were up to). I worked as a researcher for Multnomah county on its sustainability efforts. So I've wasted way too much time working and thinking about the question that you pose. b,121b,121There is lots of argument about what indefinitely means. Frankly, we don't know where the line is. Most believe that it is not possible to maintain current rates of environmental toxicity, ecosystem destruction and resource overuse and still survive as a species. Most approaches that are being adopted in governments, corporations and by individuals are really deeper 'greening' strategies. Moving from efficiency (recycling) to effectiveness (native planting gardens). Some of these efforts are truly astonishing in terms of the reduction of consumption, detoxification of materials and ecosystem restoration. None are perfectly zero waste to the environment (a goal that Nike has set for itself by 2025). There are lots of encouraging signs all over the world. The problem is that we have to hit a moving target and so much is dependent upon technological improvements to reach 'sustainable' rates. b,121b,121Cynics think that we don't have the political will or the time to solve the problems. Idealists in the movement abound. b,121b,121There is a wealth of good reading on the subject. If you'd like I can post a good reading list. b,121b,121 As far as truly sustainable organizations, I'd check a group in your neighborhood. Our United Villages operates the ReBuilding Center on Mississippi. OUV's founder, Shane Endicott has created one of the great marvels of the sustainability movement. The ReBuilding Center deconstructs buildings and receives donations, diverting 4.5 million pounds of building materials into their store each year which is sold back to the public for a tidy profit (revenues are in the 4-6 million range). The proceeds of this non-profit are reinvested back into OUV which organizes dialogues that are meant to inspire neighbors/neighborhoods to find self-sustaining solutions to the various problems they face, from isolation to lack of educational opportunity to leading healthy lives. OUV has done all this why creating 60+ living wage jobs in the hood.b,121b,121 a href="http://www.rebuildingcenter.org/" target="_blank"1ReBuilding Center b,121b,121 a href="http://www.ourunitedvillages.org/" target="_blank"1Our United Villages
  • kennykenny 1,024 Posts
    twoply you can look for info on some of the newer pilot projects in Malmo, Sweden, which is one of the few countries known for their achievement in building sustainable communities.b,121b,121Such as the Western Harbour in Malmo, which is known to be a community runs on 100% rewable energy from sun, wind and hydropower. The buildings are constructed with sustainable materials and design to be energy efficient (i.e. maximum sunlight thru building orientation etc.)...b,121b,121b,121
  • mr.brettmr.brett 678 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121img src="http://www.texasindians.com/comvil.jpg"1 b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121MYTH
  • BamboucheBambouche 1,484 Posts
    Michael Reynolds, an architect from New Mexico, has been building carbon neutral "earthships" for decades. Houses that are made from garbage and earth (cans, a href="http://www.ashleybristowe.com/weblog/content/binary/06AB2006Bottlewall.jpg" target="_blank"1bottles, old tires, mud, etc.). Reynolds, along with a band of renegade nutjobs, built a completely sustainable community in New Mexico. Reynolds later got into all sorts of trouble with city and state government because his "off the grid" housing development didn't have sewers or water wells (among other things). His houses didn't need any of that, as they were sustainable on their own. Now, after years of legislation and struggle, people can buy kits from him to build their own up-to-code earthship. There are earthship communities all over the world.b,121b,121b,121img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/88/218826679_6073c2d06a.jpg"1b,121b,121img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1157/561454102_342ec5a7bc.jpg"1b,121b,121b,121img src="http://www.laughinggoddess.org/images/earthship_076_500x375.jpg"1b,121b,121b,121b,121THERMAL MASS: The houses are built and situated in such a way to benefit the most from the environment. The construction of the homes use thermal mass rather than insulation, collecting energy from the elements, and then converting, storing, using, and reusing the energy.b,121b,121img src="http://www.thegreatbilby.com/graphics/earthshipS.jpg"1b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121WATER: The earthship catches water (rain, snow) from the roof and used 4 times: 1) gravity pushes the water into a storage tank where it's filtered and pressurized. This water is used for cleaning, drinking, etc., 2) Discarded water from the first use is collected, cleaned, and used for the indoor botanical area of the house, 3) Toilet water, collected in the same way, is channeled separate from the rest of the water in the house, 4) Used toilet water is collected, treated, and fed to the outdoor botanical areas of the house.b,121b,121img src="http://www.laughinggoddess.org/images/earthship_011_500x375.jpg"1b,121b,121b,121b,121 b,121ELECTRICITY: Photovoltaic panels convert the sun's energy into DC current electricity and is stored in batteries to power the house.b,121b,121img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2069/2106541016_0eed2a9636.jpg"1b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121There is an interesting documentary about Reynolds, Garbage Warrior, that I'd recommend if you're interested.b,121b,121More info about earthships here: a href="http://www.earthship.net/" target="_blank"1http://www.earthship.net/b,121b,121b,121I often fantasize about buying a kit, wandering out into the infinite, and building my hut near my a href="http://www.soulstrut.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=crates&Number=970307&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=" target="_blank"1abandoned missile silo, and never seeing anyone ever again...b,121b,121b,121img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1430/795752142_d485bc99d2.jpg"1b,121b,121b,121img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/106/260406587_1c0fb46949.jpg"1
  • hemolhemol 2,578 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121b,121b,121Hasn't Bucky received criticism, though, for his plans to peacefully decentralize the world's resources? Can that truly be done in a fair and even fashion? b,121b,121I'm interested in things which really work. b,121b,121b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121He has received a lot of criticism, and a lot of his ideas are pretty 'out there'. However, he also had the ability to recognize some incredibly large scale phenomena of humanity. He has a lot of other ideas, that are far more pragmatic, dealing with making the most of what we have while steering clear of using irreplaceable natural resources. b,121b,121His whole deal was recognizing that Earth is a quantified space, with a quantified amount of resources. He recognized the fact that every day, the amount of energy that arrives on this planet in the form of sunlight far exceeds the amount of energy that we consume in a day. He proposed unifying the world's power grid so that the exchange of off-peak and peak hours plays out on a grand scale, thereby reducing the cost of energy. b,121b,121He developed the dymaxion concept, which means doing the most with the least. This concept was applied to various objects that he designed including a 3-wheeled car that got something like 30 miles to the gallon in the 1950s, lightweight living structures that could be used to literally drop housing in areas where it is needed via helicopter. He also recognized the fact that designing living spaces with curves instead of right angles increases cooling efficiency in two ways; air circulates more efficiently within the space; (this is the wild part) a space constructed with right angles creates more drag because of air movement outside of the buliding, thereby drawing more of the cooled inside air outside.b,121b,121Hands down, the dude was a genius, and had the kind of foresight, and oversight that changes the world. He pointed out that governments usually spend biggest in times of crisis, while anticipatory spending would be drastically less. His idea of sustainability was about way more than consumer goods. A summarized quote:b,121b,121"Many people think that 'wealth' translates as money, but it doesn't. Wealth is the assurance that we can survive as far into the future as possible. If I have the deeds to a hundred properties worth millions of dollars, and I'm on a sinking ship in the middle of the open ocean, then I do not have much wealth because my survival is not helped by these pieces of paper. In this situation I am wealthy if I have a lifejacket, or a dingy. We need to recognize the sinking ship that we are on."
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    I think the word is used in a few different ways and means different things to different people. b,121b,121Some define it as simply the eternal recycling of existing manmade materials and the stewardship of our natural recources.b,121b,121The definition I hear most often in my industry is a simplistic [i]"development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs"/i1b,121b,121While the EPA promotes....b,121b,121 [i]"ideas, aspirations and values that continue to inspire public and private organizations to become better stewards of the environment and that promote positive economic growth and social objectives.'/i1 b,121b,121One thing I agree with is that we have to sustain BOTH the economy and environment and come up with programs that consider both equally.b,121b,121Here is a report from the EPA Sustainability Forum held in 2006 that you might find helpful.b,121b,121a href="http://ejournal.nbii.org/progress/2006fall/0610-032.hecht.html" target="_blank"1http://ejournal.nbii.org/progress/2006fall/0610-032.hecht.html
  • twoplytwoply Only Built 4 Manzanita Links 2,914 Posts
    I appreciate the links that all of you have posted, I will check them out today.
  • tripledoubletripledouble 7,636 Posts
    great, timely thread.b,121twop, you might want to check out William McDonoughs' "cradle to cradle" ...a philosophy that all products should be created to be completely reusable after their initial use. its a little deeper thn that. b,121b,121im not too worried about different sustainable models (whether products, tehniques or communities) that are perfectly sustainable...its important to realize limitations, but what we are witnessing is comparable to the industrial revolution: there are so many ideas being put out there, borrowed, stolen, coopted, improved upon....its like a lot of little trickles that are leading to a big river that wont be held back. i feel that critical mass has definitely been achieved and now we are going to move toward a more sustainable society. b,121b,121question is whether we will shift all consumptive capitalism into sustainable production, consumption, disposable systems before its absolutely too fuking late.b,121b,121i am in the masters of environmental studies program at upenn right now and ive seen class enrolment increase exponentially each of the last four years. i am now in a very exciting course dealing with the universities sustainability. a lot of big schools are becoming more and more open to as many ideas as possible to up their "green" portfolio.b,121b,121ive been rehabbing a rowhome for a couple years. short term, aiming for high efficiency. long term, i want that shit to be off the grid, chickens,rabbits, bees in the yard. cob oven, composting toilets (available now at homedepot!), solar hot water heating, etc. b,121so much is becoming more and more mainstream.b,121b,121real sustainabile communities: check out the pennsylvania dutch.b,121b,121car centered lifestyle is not very conducive to sustainable living. not just cause of gas. road infrastructure and all the satellite communities and amenities that need to be built along with it. the problem is communities planned around cars rather than around foot travel (like most eurpean cities)
  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
    Not surprising but thought I'd pass it along.b,121b,121b,121 a href="http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/portland-again-tops-a-sustainable-cities-list/" target="_blank"1Portland named most sustainable city/a1
  • dayday 9,611 Posts
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    Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121img src="http://www.texasindians.com/comvil.jpg"1 b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121MYTH b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121uh...what? explain.
  • djdazedjdaze 3,099 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121img src="http://www.texasindians.com/comvil.jpg"1 b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121MYTH b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121uh...what? explain. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121maybe he means the guy in the middle sitting "indian style" lol
  • SaracenusSaracenus 671 Posts
    The Myth of first peoples and sustainability. Now I am expanding this to all of the Americas: North, Central, and South.b,121b,121Plenty of native cultures have failed because they could not maintain their resource consumption. The Maya are a prime example. The cities didn't fail due to war but due to over expansion and limits in agriculture the society couldn't maintain their cities. The Maya still exist today but their urban apogee had passed before the Spanish showed up.b,121b,121Subsistence cultures in harsh environments have a natural check on non-sustainable practices... your group dies if you wipe out your food supply (over hunting, over use of land, etc). We have documented instances where early American groups have driven herds over cliffs (a supremely wasteful way to hunt) the fact the practice didn't survive is a testament to the adaptability of said peoples to their environment.b,121b,121It isn't that native cultures were superior at sustainability, they really didn't have a choice. It was efficiency or die. b,121b,121Since we are not going back to subsistence living native people's practices are interesting models and examples, they are not going to solve all our problems. b,121b,121And, no I am not going to get into the whole "noble savage" meme we have for native peoples, its just as crazy as the "magical negro" meme that permeates a lot of our popular culture.
  • PATXPATX 2,820 Posts
    Can people first get into even the idea recycling and re-using shit, or even using less before we go for zero impact? There's a really annoying blog round here about someone who opening a LEED certified boutique where they go to great lengths to stress how great they are and how much money they are spending to get it up to spec. Thing is, the space they are taking over was a failed spa that was just built in 2004 and never really used. Ripping out all that shit (insulation, ductwork, floors, skylights) just so you can build fresh in 2008 and be Green certified is not saving the planet, even if it makes you feel pretty smug. We need to get over our obsession with newness (and that's unamerican) before we think about zero impact housing. Housing is a commodity, people speculate, build ahead of demand, flip, etc, not to mention how tax laws favor, say, building a new strip mall opposite the old strip mall and letting the old one rot, instead of renewing it.b,121b,121Judging from Williamsburg consumption patterns, nobody gives a fusk whether their coffee is in styrofoam or biodegradable, it's more about price and brand. Expand that to every aspect of consumerism and you can basically say that sustainability is a good project for trust funders burned out on city life, makes for good magazine articles, feels good; but has absolutely no bearing on the society we live in. It's just another way to disconnect yourself from reality instead of dealing with issues.b,121b,121Oh yeah, and why are 99% of these zero impact houses built on virgin land in some sort of desert that naturally shouldn't have more than 5 humans per 100 sq miles. That shit's not sustainable.
  • PATXPATX 2,820 Posts
    A shanty town with a population of me would be paradise.b,121b,121A shanty town with a population of close to a million, made from aluminum cans, tires and plywood is hell on earth.b,121b,121One of these is an article in Dwell, the other is something that we apparently need more free markets and consumption in order to cure.
  • Options
    Unknown
    I have to jump in, too...b,121b,121A good example of real sustainability is the tree, but, even the tree eventually expresses and exhausts itself. b,121b,121Trees have growth limits and age limits. Otherwise it is fun to think about how they make soil and live in it. It is almost like they eat themselves.b,121b,121Peaceb,121lilmonstu
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121Can people first get into even the idea recycling and re-using shit, or even using less before we go for zero impact? There's a really annoying blog round here about someone who opening a LEED certified boutique where they go to great lengths to stress how great they are and how much money they are spending to get it up to spec. Thing is, the space they are taking over was a failed spa that was just built in 2004 and never really used. Ripping out all that shit (insulation, ductwork, floors, skylights) just so you can build fresh in 2008 and be Green certified is not saving the planet, even if it makes you feel pretty smug. We need to get over our obsession with newness (and that's unamerican) before we think about zero impact housing. Housing is a commodity, people speculate, build ahead of demand, flip, etc, not to mention how tax laws favor, say, building a new strip mall opposite the old strip mall and letting the old one rot, instead of renewing it.b,121b,121Judging from Williamsburg consumption patterns, nobody gives a fusk whether their coffee is in styrofoam or biodegradable, it's more about price and brand. Expand that to every aspect of consumerism and you can basically say that sustainability is a good project for trust funders burned out on city life, makes for good magazine articles, feels good; but has absolutely no bearing on the society we live in. It's just another way to disconnect yourself from reality instead of dealing with issues.b,121b,121Oh yeah, and why are 99% of these zero impact houses built on virgin land in some sort of desert that naturally shouldn't have more than 5 humans per 100 sq miles. That shit's not sustainable. b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121"Green" is big business in the U.S.b,121b,121And there is no shortage of shills.
  • hemolhemol 2,578 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121I have to jump in, too...b,121b,121A good example of real sustainability is the tree, but, even the tree eventually expresses and exhausts itself. b,121b,121Trees have growth limits and age limits. Otherwise it is fun to think about how they make soil and live in it. It is almost like they eat themselves.b,121b,121Peaceb,121lilmonstu b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Except that the fruit that grows a new tree is just an extension of the tree that it fell off of. All one plant.
  • kennykenny 1,024 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121We need to get over our obsession with newness (and that's unamerican) before we think about zero impact housing. b,121b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121I agree.b,121b,121And thats what Urban Renewal is "suppose" to do, but again when we're talking about what really goes on, Urban Renewal is simply a VIP ticket for developers to kick people out their homes, pay them off, knock every down and build a brand new service apartment and make money off it.b,121b,121
  • tripledoubletripledouble 7,636 Posts
    i think rehabbing homes is a crucial step toward reducing peoples bills, energy dependency. hope to see solar power be economically accessible in the near future, but so far, the progress has been slow in bringing prices down. solar hot water heating is rather accessible and should be worked into all new construction. insulating exisitng homes is very a worthwhile endeavor.b,121b,121sportcas, try not to get turned off by trendy, esoteric, superficial, or self infatuated people. they can be to residential energy independence what "lifestyles of the rich and famous" homes were for materialism. its like wal mart making a big deal about cfo light bulbs...it all pushes these ideas into the mainstrea. this type of endeavor is going to take a lot of approaches from a lot of angles: corporate, government incentive/policy, yuppies, crusty punks, hipppies, environmentalists, students, teachers, contractors, children book authors, etc. We want this type of discourse to be a part of all people's lives and culture. every group will contribute its ideas as well as piss people off
  • BamboucheBambouche 1,484 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121 this type of endeavor is going to take a lot of approaches from a lot of angles:b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121/font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121crusty punks b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_House" target="_blank"1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_House/a1b,121b,121"Where Next Columbus?"/b1b,121b,121b,121img src="http://www.submarine.nl/mmbase/images/8750/crass02.jpg"1
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