Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121"vergangenheitsbew??ltigung" you guys have some fusking long words! What does that one mean?? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121"to cope with the past" b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121wow b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121actually, it's a verb in its own right, so something like "pastcoping" haha, we have to use it from time to time...and yeah, we have long words. the longest would be something like "Donaudampfschiffahrtskapit??n"...go figure....
Quote:/font1h,121b,121By February 1999, the German government, now led by Schr??der, announced plans to pay reparations to victims of Nazi atrocities from funds provided by some of the country's largest companies. By agreeing to set up a fund that acknowledges responsibility for profiting from slave labor, the German government hopes to end the various lawsuits filed on behalf of Holocaust victims suing dozens of German firms and banks for damages. Though the magnitude of the German fund has yet to be specified, it is expected to amount to $1.7 billion, with a dozen major German businesses???including Deutsche Bank, Daimler-Benz, Volkswagen, and Siemens???participating. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121what a thread. can you even imagine america doing something like this...
Wow, 'interesting' opinions on the matter. As Faux mentioned, I wrote originally to get some information on the property because it is ours by law and now (after many years of waiting) it looks as if we will be faced with having to sort out what to do with it. Information that is relevant to myself and the other heirs includes historical, cultural, geographic details as well as monetary concerns. Props to Dojah and others who have shared information helping my family learn about the area of Berlin in question. It seems that people here are offended that I am concerned about the monetary implications of this matter, as if that sullies the pureness of getting justice. This is nonsense. One of the many injustices visited upon my family was economic terrorism. As part of the reparations project, we will get financial remuneration as it should be. b,121b,121As for the implication that we went looking for this fight. Nothing could be further from the truth. We were approached by lawyers after the fall of the wall because reparations were never offered in the Soviet era (most cases in West Germany were settled in the 50s). In the time that passed since the start of the suit, my grandmother has passed. So have other members of my family (my father's cousin) who had to flea the Nazis. b,121b,121A final note, many of the beneficiaries of the settlement will be Jewish charities named by the survivors in their wills. Living survivors of the holocaust (unrelated to my family) will benefit directly from the settlement. I can think of no sweeter justice.
Should reparations be talked about all over the world? Very few places where there isn't someone who was forced/killed to give up everything.b,121b,121I have no problem with Dr.Wu family trying to get back what was theirs. Just as long as he's open to the idea of giving back what's his in America when Native Americans come knocking...
Quote:/font1h,121b,121I fully support paying reparations to the surviving families of USA slavery. Reparations should also be paid to families who were forced to sell or abandon land and business in this country. b,121b,121h,121
I'm not all that interested in wading into the justice side of this discussion. I'm neither qualified, nor directly affected (my kin who died in the holocaust have not been privy to any of the German legal wranglings). b,121b,121I do think that the discussion is valuable. Despite the risk of flippant arguments and misunderstandings, this discussion has raised: b,121b,121- is money sufficient (or insulting) as reparations?b,121- is this a phenomenon limited to Germany (and nations whose genocides have been part of the explicit national project)? b,121- relationship of reparations to citizens who struggled (and perhaps resisted) against the nazi regime. b,121b,121All of which are vital, important questions. b,121b,121And for those who think this conversation doesn't belong on Soulstrut because it isn't about records. Keep in mind that what joins us is an interest in records, we should no more limit our conversations here than we would with real-time friends.
It's a matter of historical fact that many companies in Germany (some as US subsidaries) profited directly from slave labor and land seizure. For that alone, I don't think a free pass should be given out. Ignoring the sins of one's history--this applies as much to America as Germany--is a sure way to return there.
Next German stepping in the Disscussion.b,121Hey, get that money.b,121Germany has to pay Reparations, for a reason.b,121I don??t have a problem with it.b,121I was born in a Country that had a system that killed millions of people. Lucky enough that time is long past, but we still feel what happened.b,121As a German, you learn not to point fingers at anybody.b,121When I met some cat from the US, that told me "Hey, I??m American, but I never voted for George W Bush..." I thought to myself, easy bro, I know how you are feeling.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Next German stepping in the Disscussion.b,121Hey, get that money.b,121Germany has to pay Reparations, for a reason.b,121I don??t have a problem with it.b,121I was born in a Country that had a system that killed millions of people. Lucky enough that time is long past, but we still feel what happened.b,121As a German, you learn not to point fingers at anybody.b,121When I met some cat from the US, that told me "Hey, I??m American, but I never voted for George W Bush..." I thought to myself, easy bro, I know how you are feeling. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121am i the only one that thinks he sounds cramped?
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121Next German stepping in the Disscussion.b,121Hey, get that money.b,121Germany has to pay Reparations, for a reason.b,121I don??t have a problem with it.b,121I was born in a Country that had a system that killed millions of people. Lucky enough that time is long past, but we still feel what happened.b,121As a German, you learn not to point fingers at anybody.b,121When I met some cat from the US, that told me "Hey, I??m American, but I never voted for George W Bush..." I thought to myself, easy bro, I know how you are feeling. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121am i the only one that thinks he sounds cramped? b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121H??h?
Quote:/font1h,121b,121 i think everything that has been posted in this thread has been NAGL, including my posts!/b1 b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Haha, damn. b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121(slowly backs out of thread)
well, i was tired and ready to post on soulstrut. no good premises for world peace.b,121b,121b,121b,121PS. trying to justify my reputation here. actually, i come here to waste my time and play smart.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121well, i was tired and ready to post on soulstrut. no good premises for world peace.b,121b,121b,121b,121PS. trying to justify my reputation here. actually, i come here to waste my time and play smart. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Grope's cool. He just needed a sandwich.
Wow. I step away for a couple of days and my brother (biological) Dr. Wu has blown-up the boards.b,121b,121What can I say. The wounds of our past still leave scars for everyone involved. b,121b,121What it also did was make our father extremely sensitive to injustice of the world and his own country. He passed down that sensitivity to his sons and daughter.b,121b,121I have memories as a young boy of playing cowboys and indians with set of plastic toys (it was Custer vs. the Sioux, yeah it was fusked up like that) and my dad turning it into a lesson on the genocide that my own country visited upon the Native Americans.b,121b,121America, like all countries is built on blood. Whether it be that of the Native American peoples, slaves, interned Japanese-Americans or the exploitation of undocumented Mexican workers today, there is much to answer for in America.b,121b,121I give props to the German Government and its people. At least they are willing to look at their past and try to make things right in some manner. I see my own government and people are slow to even offer an apology let alone reparations.b,121b,121What does it mean to me and my family that we finally have justice. It means closing a door on our past. Something that has echoed in our family for decades. As cool as Dr. Wu is and nerdy as I am it shapes and colors our view of the world.b,121b,121So, we exult in our day of justice and we are both aware of those around us still awaiting just a word, let alone a deed, acknowledging injustice.b,121b,121While I cannot speak for my government, I can personally say that I am sorry for what was done in my name. The destruction of the first nations, the slave trade, exploitation of immigrant labor, the internment of Japanese-Americans, and all others that my country wronged, I apologize. I feel your pain and I hope that some day my own people will own up to their past and do something to make it right.b,121b,121That is all. b,121b,121
right on... i understand that you feel that you have justice now. b,121b,121it's a good thing and very important to all people that have been involved.
Wow... some crazy shit here in the mid part of this thread.b,121b,121Grope: I'm actually very much against this "I heard all about the Holocaust while I was in school, I'm done with this now." attitude.b,121It's a good thing they spend so much time on this at school but that's just to educate you. It might be painful to learn about all of this and to realize that Germans will forever be stigmatized for the unspeakable horrors committed by our grandfather's generation but only to know about these things doesn't do anything. Knowledge must lead to actions and to pay reparations is just one action that we Germans have to take. We HAVE TO. There shouldn't even be any discussion about this. "Reparations" also is a very wrong word in this context since what was done is beyond repair. These reparations are simply the right thing to do and anything else would be wrong.b,121b,121Personally, to me, the idea of being proud of the country your born in is just plain absurd since that's just a given circumstance, one card in a handful that's dealt to you to play the game of life. So I can't say I'm proud that Germany still pays reparations towards victims of the nazi regime but it certainly makes me feel good or at least less bad.b,121b,121I know that these reparations can lead to situations that might seem unjust at first glance. Like for example if someone has inherited a house and put a lot of money in it just to have to return it to the original owner's family but such houses or other property are stolen goods. If you gain possession of stolen goods even without knowing, you're not the rightful owner. Plus, the injustice the german house owner might feel is nothing compared to the injustice that was done to the original owner.b,121b,121There should never be any such thought as "now we've done enough". I also hate this phoney victim attitude that some germans have as in "oh, they bombed the shit out of us" or this played out pride as in "our generation had to rebuilt a destroyed country". Fusk that shit! be thankful you didn't get nuked back into the stone age and no points for rebuilding a country that you've fucked up yourself.b,121b,121Looking at modern day photographs of neo-nazi rallies in (not only east-) Germany, I sometimes think they should have nuked our (or our fathers and grandfathers) asses. But I doubt that would have made the world a better place.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121Personally, to me, the idea of being proud of the country your born in is just plain absurd since that's just a given circumstance, one card in a handful that's dealt to you to play the game of life. So I can't say I'm proud that Germany still pays reparations towards victims of the nazi regime but it certainly makes me feel good or at least less bad.b,121b,121 b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Pride in one's supposed (national) superiority serves no one. It is the refuge of the weak and the greedy. It is odd to watch Repubs chanting USA USA USA at their convention as if that will somehow make our country a better place. It never will.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Wow... some crazy shit here in the mid part of this thread.b,121b,121Grope: I'm actually very much against this "I heard all about the Holocaust while I was in school, I'm done with this now." attitude.b,121It's a good thing they spend so much time on this at school but that's just to educate you. It might be painful to learn about all of this and to realize that Germans will forever be stigmatized for the unspeakable horrors committed by our grandfather's generation but only to know about these things doesn't do anything. Knowledge must lead to actions and to pay reparations is just one action that we Germans have to take. We HAVE TO. There shouldn't even be any discussion about this. "Reparations" also is a very wrong word in this context since what was done is beyond repair. These reparations are simply the right thing to and anything else would be wrong.b,121b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121you got me totally wrong!!! super super wrong!!!!!
Quote:/font1h,121b,121So, the Seneca Nation or the Lakota Sioux are weak and greedy for being proud of their heritage? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121I wrote proud of one's supposed superiority. That's the key difference. If you go to an American national political convention, you will hear "the greatest nation in history" thrown around like pocket change. It's embarrassing and leads people to view others as steps on the path to national glory. No good ever comes of it. b,121b,121If you would go to a typical Passover seder the kinds of prideful statements you would hear made about Jewish culture would be about taking care of others and serving the community. that kind of pride is where I live.
Frank,b,121b,121Pride in one???s country is not a sin. I am proud to be an American. Nor is humility a weakness. I am also ashamed of certain acts my country has done in my name.b,121b,121Do not take the easy way out. Wishing that your country had been ???nuked??? as a way to atone for its sins neither addresses what happened or brings joy to my heart.b,121b,121While America (and its ally Britain) didn???t drop the A-bomb on your country we did firebomb Dresden killing countless thousand innocents while ignoring the industrial and military targets on the outskirts (Kurt Vonnegut???s Slaughter House Five is based upon his witnessing this horrific event as a POW). This act did nothing to balance the scales between us, it just made the stain upon my own country larger. Evil begets evil.b,121b,121Be proud of your country Frank, there is much to admire. Be wary of those that would hijack that pride for their own selfish and evil ends. Remember your past but do not be rendered helpless by it.b,121b,121In short be proud of your country???s goodness and humble about its faults. It???s what you do when evil presents itself that defines you. Be proud and humble that your country knows what evil is and will do something about it.b,121b,121To be clear, I am thankful to be an American and I take pride in the many great things my country has done and continues to do. I am also mindful of the sins of my ???accidental??? homeland. I can only dream about my country acknowledging its wrongs and doing something about it.b,121b,121Peace.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Frank,b,121b,121Pride in one???s country is not a sin. I am proud to be an American. Nor is humility a weakness. I am also ashamed of certain acts my country has done in my name.b,121b,121Do not take the easy way out. Wishing that your country had been ???nuked??? as a way to atone for its sins neither addresses what happened or brings joy to my heart.b,121b,121While America (and its ally Britain) didn???t drop the A-bomb on your country we did firebomb Dresden killing countless thousand innocents while ignoring the industrial and military targets on the outskirts (Kurt Vonnegut???s Slaughter House Five is based upon his witnessing this horrific event as a POW). This act did nothing to balance the scales between us, it just made the stain upon my own country larger. Evil begets evil.b,121b,121Be proud of your country Frank, there is much to admire. Be wary of those that would hijack that pride for their own selfish and evil ends. Remember your past but do not be rendered helpless by it.b,121b,121In short be proud of your country???s goodness and humble about its faults. It???s what you do when evil presents itself that defines you. Be proud and humble that your country knows what evil is and will do something about it.b,121b,121To be clear, I am thankful to be an American and I take pride in the many great things my country has done and continues to do. I am also mindful of the sins of my ???accidental??? homeland. I can only dream about my country acknowledging its wrongs and doing something about it.b,121b,121Peace. b,121b,121h,121
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