we may be talking about two different scenarios... one is gas company execs hoarding profits and makng the public shoulder the price of future insecruties
the other is oil being in increasingly short supply and it afecting every sector of he economy that depends on oil (most)
either way, oil supply demand is going to have major dislocations within 50 years...most likely sooner.
mickey ds is built on oil and corn industries. i cant see them whethering this too well. i suppose that fast food people are going to have to figure out a way to contribute to society once merely being a consumer is not enough.
all i want for christmas is the collapse of the oil economyeconomic depression, civil unrest, martial law, a suspension of the Constitution, fascist dictatorship, concentration camps, etc.[/b]
I mean, I agree that we should be using something other than oil to fuel our economy/way of life...but under the current circumstances, raising gas prices any more than a dollar from where they are now will cause nothing but catostrophic chaos for us and just the economic/social environment that those in power want in order to complete their well-documented plans to subvert this nation into a slave state.
i was joking (a little) but the country does not to get severely jolted out of its stupor of complacency and convenience addiction. people need to start planning for peak oil, global warming, and building local food systems. if we dont, then your doomsday predictions will be more likely. building a green economy addresses poverty, pollution, racism, drugs, imprisonment, racism, and the relevance of local biz/manufacturing. it needs to become a major political issue that candidates get elected around.
transitions will hurt a little, but can stimulate change. i advocate that, rather than being unprepared when shit crumbles
we may be talking about two different scenarios... one is gas company execs hoarding profits and makng the public shoulder the price of future insecruties
the other is oil being in increasingly short supply and it afecting every sector of he economy that depends on oil (most)
either way, oil supply demand is going to have major dislocations within 50 years...most likely sooner.
mickey ds is built on oil and corn industries. i cant see them whethering this too well. i suppose that fast food people are going to have to figure out a way to contribute to society once merely being a consumer is not enough.
Take the impact that this will have on corporations and multiply it by 5 for the effect it will have on the average citizen.
Your "Let's teach Corporate America a lesson" theory will backfire for sure...but of course when the average citizen is devastated by it, not to worry, we'll just blame Corporate America!!
Needless to say I work less than 5 miles from my house. I fill up every week and a half and an extra $10 or so jump doesn't really take a bite.
Same here. I'm young, single and don't have too many financial responsibilities, though. As much as I hate politicians who are whores to the energy companies, I can't help but realize that maybe this price increase that is making people think more (than before) about our presence in the Middle East, renewable energy, encouraging people to excercise and not spend so much on their expensive fast-food/liquor/cigarette/weed/whatever habits (applied to me not too long ago) can't be too bad. It's nice to see the interest in change once people are now feeling that they are being pushed out of their comfort zones. "Maybe buying that big, new plasma TV or buying a couple pairs of those gaudy expensive made-in-China shoes aren't that necessary". No moral high ground here, though. I'm a guy who has been raised to have the bare minimum luxuries
we may be talking about two different scenarios... one is gas company execs hoarding profits and makng the public shoulder the price of future insecruties
the other is oil being in increasingly short supply and it afecting every sector of he economy that depends on oil (most)
either way, oil supply demand is going to have major dislocations within 50 years...most likely sooner.
mickey ds is built on oil and corn industries. i cant see them whethering this too well. i suppose that fast food people are going to have to figure out a way to contribute to society once merely being a consumer is not enough.
Take the impact that this will have on corporations and multiply it by 5 for the effect it will have on the average citizen.
Your "Let's teach Corporate America a lesson" theory will backfire for sure...but of course when the average citizen is devastated by it, not to worry, we'll just blame Corporate America!!
It's a win/win!!
rock, please dont paint me to be so kneejerk. maybe thats how i come across in my posts. its not about teaching corporate america a lesson. its about redirecting the reliance of the economy from being painted in one corner to hedging our bets. most big corporations are already on the bandwagon (im not sure about agribusiness,though im sure their R&D is on it 24-7). politicians need to be moved to take stands. right now, raising the price of gas is political suicide. without popular support, no politician would through fullscale support behind renewable energy to the detriment of the consumer an oil.
we cant keep babying a system that is not long term. a lot of people are realizing that now...but oil is still plentiful and very cheap (even at 4 a gallon) so no one is going to be that moved toward action.
average citizens need to stat thinking about this shit now and organizing around it in their local communities, churches, schools. i see it happening in philly, so maybe to me this doesnt seem like that crazy a realization.
Needless to say I work less than 5 miles from my house. I fill up every week and a half and an extra $10 or so jump doesn't really take a bite.
Same here. I'm young, single and don't have too many financial responsibilities, though. As much as I hate politicians who are whores to the energy companies, I can't help but realize that maybe this price increase that is making people think more (than before) about our presence in the Middle East, renewable energy, encouraging people to excercise and not spend so much on their expensive fast-food/liquor/cigarette/weed/whatever habits (applied to me not too long ago) can't be too bad. It's nice to see the interest in change once people are now feeling that they are being pushed out of their comfort zones. "Maybe buying that big, new plasma TV or buying a couple pairs of those gaudy expensive made-in-China shoes aren't that necessary". No moral high ground here, though. I'm a guy who has been raised to have the bare minimum luxuries
to the fullest
we have all enjoyed an amazing standard of living for a good long while. this standard of living and its infinite conveniences is divorced from hundreds of thousands of years of natural reality. unless our science can help us transcend the whims of nature, we are about to get bit in the butt. checks and balances. ice caps melt, civilizations come and go.
we may be talking about two different scenarios... one is gas company execs hoarding profits and makng the public shoulder the price of future insecruties
the other is oil being in increasingly short supply and it afecting every sector of he economy that depends on oil (most)
either way, oil supply demand is going to have major dislocations within 50 years...most likely sooner.
mickey ds is built on oil and corn industries. i cant see them whethering this too well. i suppose that fast food people are going to have to figure out a way to contribute to society once merely being a consumer is not enough.
Take the impact that this will have on corporations and multiply it by 5 for the effect it will have on the average citizen.
Your "Let's teach Corporate America a lesson" theory will backfire for sure...but of course when the average citizen is devastated by it, not to worry, we'll just blame Corporate America!!
It's a win/win!!
rock, please dont paint me to be so kneejerk. maybe thats how i come across in my posts. its not about teaching corporate america a lesson. its about redirecting the reliance of the economy from being painted in one corner to hedging our bets. most big corporations are already on the bandwagon (im not sure about agribusiness,though im sure their R&D is on it 24-7). politicians need to be moved to take stands. right now, raising the price of gas is political suicide. without popular support, no politician would through fullscale support behind renewable energy to the detriment of the consumer an oil.
we cant keep babying a system that is not long term. a lot of people are realizing that now...but oil is still plentiful and very cheap (even at 4 a gallon) so no one is going to be that moved toward action.
average citizens need to stat thinking about this shit now and organizing around it in their local communities, churches, schools. i see it happening in philly, so maybe to me this doesnt seem like that crazy a realization.
move with urgency. every second counts
I don't disagree with your basic premise....truth is that lots has/is being done on corporate/governmental levels to start to address these issues but quite frankly citizens aren't buying into most of them. I don't see $6.00 a gallon gas getting the job done, it will just hurt those at the bottom of the economic totem pole.
Come to Texas and see more people on line at the gas station than driving in the HOV lanes. I can't imagine it's much different elsewhere.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
ice caps melt
They also apparently get lasered by star wars-styled satellites in space:
In February, the House voted to end tax credits for the oil companies and shift the resulting revenue to funding renewable resources such as wind, solar and geothermal energy. President Bush has said he will veto the bill if it gets to his desk.[/b]
Changing the attitudes of America towards oil/alternative energy aside, that above statement just looks like some partisan bullshit. The house isn't looking to cause a massive, uprooting paradigm shift. They just want to take some oil-industry handouts and shift that towards renewable resource research. Sounds reasonable to me. For Bush to instantly front on that just screams "oil whore." Changing the attitude of Joe Blow on the street is great, but when our deciderer-in-chief isn't going to back anything, change is going to come slow, if at all.
and also...
"We have made a choice as a nation to not advantage ourselves to our own oil supply," said Rep. Candice S. Miller (R-Mich.).
Advantage is a verb now? wtf? Did I miss the memo on that? ugh.
You're the only one talking about a movie here, buddy.
Haha, I don't even know how to respond to you. I'm fully aware that you were talking about Reagan's SDI, but this is not that. I also don't think your definition of "laser" is necessarily accurate. Measuring the thickness of icebergs with lasers is one of the only effective ways of doing it. The lasers have absolutely no impact on the iceberg itself.
In addition, two oil industry executives are bundling money for Obama ??? drumming up contributions from individuals and turning them over to the campaign. George Kaiser, the chairman of Oklahoma-based Kaiser-Francis Oil Co., ranks 68th on the Forbes list of world billionaires. He's listed on Obama's Web site as raising between $50,000 and $100,000 for the candidate. Robert Cavnar is president and CEO of Milagro Exploration LLC, an oil exploration and production company. He's named as a bundler in the same category as Kaiser.
We're not making any judgments about whether Obama is influenced by campaign contributions. In fact, we'd note that he singles out ExxonMobil in this ad, even though he's received more than $30,850 from individuals who work for the company. But we do think that in theory, contributions that come in volume from oil industry executives, or are bundled by them, can be every bit as influential as PAC contributions, if not more so.
To answer your question about whether Congress will do anything? The answer is no. There's nothing they can find on the oil companies to prosecute them or regulate them more, etc. etc. This is all grandstanding and happens every time oil prices/gas shoots up.
Oil companies do a couple things to keep prices up like try to limit supply to independent gas statios that have lower prices, but I don't think they can be busted for it. Oil companies also are taking in profits for the past couple years as prices have shot up and not invested in new refineries and other equipment that could increase supply. That's because 1) they like making money from the high prices, duh, 2) it's a bitch to get the permits, etc. from the government and get public support for building new refineries.
California is a perfect example of this where the number of refineries actually decreased in the 90s, while demand continued to go up. CA also has to produce a special gas because of pollution laws so we can't import it from other states. The refineries in CA are pumping at capacity, but it's just meeting demand. CA also happens to be the wealthiest state so companies are able to charge more because we can afford it. The government, companies, demand, and our wealth all work together to drive prices up in the state. Besides Hawaii, CA has consistently had the highest gas prices in America for the last 10+ years, with the effects of Katrina being the only break from that trend.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
You're the only one talking about a movie here, buddy.
Haha, I don't even know how to respond to you. I'm fully aware that you were talking about Reagan's SDI, but this is not that. I also don't think your definition of "laser" is necessarily accurate. Measuring the thickness of icebergs with lasers is one of the only effective ways of doing it. The lasers have absolutely no impact on the iceberg itself.
Why are you talking about measuring icebergs when the issue is how the icebergs got cut so cleanly like that? Only way that is even possible is with a laser.
Oil companies do a couple things to keep prices up like try to limit supply to independent gas statios that have lower prices, but I don't think they can be busted for it. Oil companies also are taking in profits for the past couple years as prices have shot up and not invested in new refineries and other equipment that could increase supply. That's because 1) they like making money from the high prices, duh, 2) it's a bitch to get the permits, etc. from the government and get public support for building new refineries.
Actually, new refineries and additions to existing refineries are being built, just not in California. I work in a refinery and it's by far the biggest industry in my area. At least 3 local refineries are looking to double their capacity by 2012, including the refinery where I'm employed. We'll be growing from 300,000 bbl per day throughput to 600,000 bbl per day. I know similar projects are underway in Louisiana as well.
It's going to be tricky, though, because the cost of labor in this area shot up dramatically after Katrina and Rita. The estimated cost of our expansion has gone from 4 billion $ to 6 billion $, and lots of folks think that's unrealistically low. My refinery is co-owned by Saudi Aramco, we WILL be expanding, but companies without such guaranteed returns on their investment will be wary of building right now.
The ironic thing is before the massive industry shift in the early 80's, my refinery could charge almost 800,000 bbl per day. Along with rising costs to repair and staff outdated units, shrinking demand also played a part in dozens of units being torn down.
so every flat surface or right angle that occurs in nature is a result of a fricken-lazer-beam?
Ummmm....this pains me to say so, but dude is right. I think the clean line is more explainable by nature than by laser-beam.
Then plaese to explain.
What's to explain? Just how ice seperates sometimes. I can't say with any more autority than anyone else, but until I see some proof that that the break was man-made....well, I have no reason NOT to believe that it's how it happened naturally. If anything, I am skeptical that MAN could make a break so perfect. That seems to be nature at work, friend.
Now, if you wanna ask me if I think the US Government actually shot down that satellite a month or so bac, we can discuss being skeptical.
Why are you talking about measuring icebergs when the issue is how the icebergs got cut so cleanly like that? Only way that is even possible is with a laser.
The CIA does this kind of thing to piss you and only you off. What are you going to do about it, serf?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
so every flat surface or right angle that occurs in nature is a result of a fricken-lazer-beam?
Ummmm....this pains me to say so, but dude is right. I think the clean line is more explainable by nature than by laser-beam.
Then plaese to explain.
Have you ever been to the Cliffs of Dover? There are cliffs there that have super clean straight sheer walls...as straight as that pic you posted...
But this isn't the first time that laser technology has been present on Earth.
That's not to say that right angles can't happen naturally.
It's to say that no one here (and I guess we'd really need a geologist to do so) has explained how such straight lines can form naturally.
i believe that icebergs follow formations of frozen waters, which are composed of frozen water crystals which form larger crystals all of which have straight edges along their bonds and that could lead to they breaking off in straight edges.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
i believe that icebergs follow formations of frozen waters, which are composed of frozen water crystals which form larger crystals all of which have straight edges along their bonds and that could lead to they breaking off in straight edges.
Not sure if it's accurate, but that is the kind of explaining I was looking for.
all i want for christmas is the collapse of the oil economyeconomic depression, civil unrest, martial law, a suspension of the Constitution, fascist dictatorship, concentration camps, etc.[/b]
I mean, I agree that we should be using something other than oil to fuel our economy/way of life...but under the current circumstances, raising gas prices any more than a dollar from where they are now will cause nothing but catostrophic chaos for us and just the economic/social environment that those in power want in order to complete their well-documented plans to subvert this nation into a slave state.[/b]
i guess this would be the right place to post this wee link then:
so every flat surface or right angle that occurs in nature is a result of a fricken-lazer-beam?
Ummmm....this pains me to say so, but dude is right. I think the clean line is more explainable by nature than by laser-beam.
Then plaese to explain.
Have you ever been to the Cliffs of Dover? There are cliffs there that have super clean straight sheer walls...as straight as that pic you posted...
But this isn't the first time that laser technology has been present on Earth.
That's not to say that right angles can't happen naturally.
It's to say that no one here (and I guess we'd really need a geologist to do so) has explained how such straight lines can form naturally.
I would be willing to bet that if you were right up on it, it would not be as straight/perfect across as it appears. Just sayin'. i really don't see what the controversy is.
Comments
one is gas company execs hoarding profits and makng the public shoulder the price of future insecruties
the other is oil being in increasingly short supply and it afecting every sector of he economy that depends on oil (most)
either way, oil supply demand is going to have major dislocations within 50 years...most likely sooner.
mickey ds is built on oil and corn industries. i cant see them whethering this too well. i suppose that fast food people are going to have to figure out a way to contribute to society once merely being a consumer is not enough.
i was joking (a little)
but the country does not to get severely jolted out of its stupor of complacency and convenience addiction. people need to start planning for peak oil, global warming, and building local food systems. if we dont, then your doomsday predictions will be more likely. building a green economy addresses poverty, pollution, racism, drugs, imprisonment, racism, and the relevance of local biz/manufacturing. it needs to become a major political issue that candidates get elected around.
transitions will hurt a little, but can stimulate change. i advocate that, rather than being unprepared when shit crumbles
www.dreamreborn.org
Take the impact that this will have on corporations and multiply it by 5 for the effect it will have on the average citizen.
Your "Let's teach Corporate America a lesson" theory will backfire for sure...but of course when the average citizen is devastated by it, not to worry, we'll just blame Corporate America!!
It's a win/win!!
Same here. I'm young, single and don't have too many financial responsibilities, though. As much as I hate politicians who are whores to the energy companies, I can't help but realize that maybe this price increase that is making people think more (than before) about our presence in the Middle East, renewable energy, encouraging people to excercise and not spend so much on their expensive fast-food/liquor/cigarette/weed/whatever habits (applied to me not too long ago) can't be too bad. It's nice to see the interest in change once people are now feeling that they are being pushed out of their comfort zones. "Maybe buying that big, new plasma TV or buying a couple pairs of those gaudy expensive made-in-China shoes aren't that necessary". No moral high ground here, though. I'm a guy who has been raised to have the bare minimum luxuries
rock, please dont paint me to be so kneejerk. maybe thats how i come across in my posts.
its not about teaching corporate america a lesson. its about redirecting the reliance of the economy from being painted in one corner to hedging our bets. most big corporations are already on the bandwagon (im not sure about agribusiness,though im sure their R&D is on it 24-7). politicians need to be moved to take stands. right now, raising the price of gas is political suicide. without popular support, no politician would through fullscale support behind renewable energy to the detriment of the consumer an oil.
we cant keep babying a system that is not long term. a lot of people are realizing that now...but oil is still plentiful and very cheap (even at 4 a gallon) so no one is going to be that moved toward action.
average citizens need to stat thinking about this shit now and organizing around it in their local communities, churches, schools. i see it happening in philly, so maybe to me this doesnt seem like that crazy a realization.
move with urgency. every second counts
we have all enjoyed an amazing standard of living for a good long while. this standard of living and its infinite conveniences is divorced from hundreds of thousands of years of natural reality. unless our science can help us transcend the whims of nature, we are about to get bit in the butt. checks and balances. ice caps melt, civilizations come and go.
I don't disagree with your basic premise....truth is that lots has/is being done on corporate/governmental levels to start to address these issues but quite frankly citizens aren't buying into most of them. I don't see $6.00 a gallon gas getting the job done, it will just hurt those at the bottom of the economic totem pole.
Come to Texas and see more people on line at the gas station than driving in the HOV lanes. I can't imagine it's much different elsewhere.
They also apparently get lasered by star wars-styled satellites in space:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_...&news=1&bbcws=1
Not this kind of laser:
There is a big difference. Not Star Wars related.
You're the only one talking about a movie here, buddy.
Changing the attitudes of America towards oil/alternative energy aside, that above statement just looks like some partisan bullshit. The house isn't looking to cause a massive, uprooting paradigm shift. They just want to take some oil-industry handouts and shift that towards renewable resource research. Sounds reasonable to me. For Bush to instantly front on that just screams "oil whore." Changing the attitude of Joe Blow on the street is great, but when our deciderer-in-chief isn't going to back anything, change is going to come slow, if at all.
and also...
Advantage is a verb now? wtf? Did I miss the memo on that? ugh.
Haha, I don't even know how to respond to you. I'm fully aware that you were talking about Reagan's SDI, but this is not that. I also don't think your definition of "laser" is necessarily accurate. Measuring the thickness of icebergs with lasers is one of the only effective ways of doing it. The lasers have absolutely no impact on the iceberg itself.
In addition, two oil industry executives are bundling money for Obama ??? drumming up contributions from individuals and turning them over to the campaign. George Kaiser, the chairman of Oklahoma-based Kaiser-Francis Oil Co., ranks 68th on the Forbes list of world billionaires. He's listed on Obama's Web site as raising between $50,000 and $100,000 for the candidate. Robert Cavnar is president and CEO of Milagro Exploration LLC, an oil exploration and production company. He's named as a bundler in the same category as Kaiser.
We're not making any judgments about whether Obama is influenced by campaign contributions. In fact, we'd note that he singles out ExxonMobil in this ad, even though he's received more than $30,850 from individuals who work for the company. But we do think that in theory, contributions that come in volume from oil industry executives, or are bundled by them, can be every bit as influential as PAC contributions, if not more so.
To answer your question about whether Congress will do anything? The answer is no. There's nothing they can find on the oil companies to prosecute them or regulate them more, etc. etc. This is all grandstanding and happens every time oil prices/gas shoots up.
Oil companies do a couple things to keep prices up like try to limit supply to independent gas statios that have lower prices, but I don't think they can be busted for it. Oil companies also are taking in profits for the past couple years as prices have shot up and not invested in new refineries and other equipment that could increase supply. That's because 1) they like making money from the high prices, duh, 2) it's a bitch to get the permits, etc. from the government and get public support for building new refineries.
California is a perfect example of this where the number of refineries actually decreased in the 90s, while demand continued to go up. CA also has to produce a special gas because of pollution laws so we can't import it from other states. The refineries in CA are pumping at capacity, but it's just meeting demand. CA also happens to be the wealthiest state so companies are able to charge more because we can afford it. The government, companies, demand, and our wealth all work together to drive prices up in the state. Besides Hawaii, CA has consistently had the highest gas prices in America for the last 10+ years, with the effects of Katrina being the only break from that trend.
Why are you talking about measuring icebergs when the issue is how the icebergs got cut so cleanly like that? Only way that is even possible is with a laser.
Ummmm....this pains me to say so, but dude is right. I think the clean line is more explainable by nature than by laser-beam.
Actually, new refineries and additions to existing refineries are being built, just not in California. I work in a refinery and it's by far the biggest industry in my area. At least 3 local refineries are looking to double their capacity by 2012, including the refinery where I'm employed. We'll be growing from 300,000 bbl per day throughput to 600,000 bbl per day. I know similar projects are underway in Louisiana as well.
It's going to be tricky, though, because the cost of labor in this area shot up dramatically after Katrina and Rita. The estimated cost of our expansion has gone from 4 billion $ to 6 billion $, and lots of folks think that's unrealistically low. My refinery is co-owned by Saudi Aramco, we WILL be expanding, but companies without such guaranteed returns on their investment will be wary of building right now.
The ironic thing is before the massive industry shift in the early 80's, my refinery could charge almost 800,000 bbl per day. Along with rising costs to repair and staff outdated units, shrinking demand also played a part in dozens of units being torn down.
Stringent World Views Revealed!!!
Then plaese to explain.
Have you ever been to the Cliffs of Dover? There are cliffs there that have super clean straight sheer walls...as straight as that pic you posted...
What's to explain? Just how ice seperates sometimes. I can't say with any more autority than anyone else, but until I see some proof that that the break was man-made....well, I have no reason NOT to believe that it's how it happened naturally. If anything, I am skeptical that MAN could make a break so perfect. That seems to be nature at work, friend.
Now, if you wanna ask me if I think the US Government actually shot down that satellite a month or so bac, we can discuss being skeptical.
The CIA does this kind of thing to piss you and only you off. What are you going to do about it, serf?
But this isn't the first time that laser technology has been present on Earth.
That's not to say that right angles can't happen naturally.
It's to say that no one here (and I guess we'd really need a geologist to do so) has explained how such straight lines can form naturally.
Not sure if it's accurate, but that is the kind of explaining I was looking for.
Thank you.
i guess this would be the right place to post this wee link then:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89295033
I would be willing to bet that if you were right up on it, it would not be as straight/perfect across as it appears. Just sayin'. i really don't see what the controversy is.