i just wanted to say that i think that america really has a problem with racial issues. don't get me wrong. i'm just wondering what this is all about. i wouldn't care if our president was black/white or man/woman. and most other people in the world wouldn't care or talk about it. putting up those kind of issues for discussion is poor.
i just wanted to say that i think that america really has a problem with racial issues. don't get me wrong. i'm just wondering what this is all about.
Start with some basics: legalized slavery from 1600 - 1860s, then move into Jim Crow segregation from 1860s through 1960s. Add in 50 more years of racialized tension, economic upheaval, educational/residential/employment segregation and media stereotyping.
Basically, out of a 400+ year history, America has spent 90% of that time under either/both a de facto or de jure racial dictatorship where one group - white men - held power while non-whites were systemically disenfranchised. Just because some forms of that have been made illegal over the last 40-50 years has hardly done much to redress the long-lasting inequalities created by such history.
i just wanted to say that i think that america really has a problem with racial issues. don't get me wrong. i'm just wondering what this is all about. i wouldn't care if our president was black/white or man/woman. and most other people in the world wouldn't care or talk about it. putting up those kind of issues for discussion is poor.
I understand that Germany is one of the few places on earth without any racial problems.
i just wanted to say that i think that america really has a problem with racial issues. don't get me wrong. i'm just wondering what this is all about. i wouldn't care if our president was black/white or man/woman. and most other people in the world wouldn't care or talk about it. putting up those kind of issues for discussion is poor.
I understand that Germany is one of the few places on earth without any racial problems.
I think they "fixed" some of those issues back in the 1930s and '40s.
For real though, I had the same thought - aren't places like Berlin going through major turmoil over the growing immigrant (largely non-white) population?
And what is up with Keith Olberman? Its commendable to call out Bush and give a "special comment" about the troops dying in Iraq. But doesn't it water it down, when he gives a special comment about whether Hillary was forceful enough in saying Obama is not a muslim. Has he seen that 60 minutes interview? Is a special comment about Britney's failures as a mom up next?
Maybe you don't agree, but I think he speaks for a lot of Democrats when he says the Hillary's adopted all sorts of last-ditch tactics which seem straight out of the Karl Rove playbook. Attacking Obama's biggest strengths, accusing the opponent of tactics that you yourself are engaged in, etc. A lot of people agree with his charecterization of her response to this. To me it seems comparable to Bush's response to the swift boat ads, ie "I dont agree (but I'm happy to reap the benefits of such a discussion)." I also think she's successfully got the media to play along with this storyline that its close by claiming bias; classic Rove.
The fact is this is all academic, she WILL NOT catch up in pledged delegates, so this all a big charade to show superdelegates she has momentum (which her campaign has previously said didn't matter) and overturn the results of the last couple months of elections. She's doing anything she can to try and quietly steal this, and I find a lot of her team's comments and strategy infuriating. You can try and belittle it by comparing it to Britney, but at one point I though she was really a great senator if a little divisive to be the nominee; the way she's ran this campaign, I don't think I would vote for her to be my senator again.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
i just wanted to say that i think that america really has a problem with racial issues. don't get me wrong. i'm just wondering what this is all about.
Start with some basics: legalized slavery from 1600 - 1860s, then move into Jim Crow segregation from 1860s through 1960s. Add in 50 more years of racialized tension, economic upheaval, educational/residential/employment segregation and media stereotyping.
Basically, out of a 400+ year history, America has spent 90% of that time under either/both a de facto or de jure racial dictatorship where one group - white men - held power while non-whites were systemically disenfranchised. Just because some forms of that have been made illegal over the last 40-50 years has hardly done much to redress the long-lasting inequalities created by such history.
Don't forget about the almost total annihilation of the Native population.
"There could never really be justice on stolen land."
i just wanted to say that i think that america really has a problem with racial issues. don't get me wrong. i'm just wondering what this is all about.
Start with some basics: legalized slavery from 1600 - 1860s, then move into Jim Crow segregation from 1860s through 1960s. Add in 50 more years of racialized tension, economic upheaval, educational/residential/employment segregation and media stereotyping.
Basically, out of a 400+ year history, America has spent 90% of that time under either/both a de facto or de jure racial dictatorship where one group - white men - held power while non-whites were systemically disenfranchised. Just because some forms of that have been made illegal over the last 40-50 years has hardly done much to redress the long-lasting inequalities created by such history.
Don't forget about the almost total annihilation of the Native population.
"There could never really be justice on stolen land."
Word word - plus the exploitation of immigrant labor from Asia and Latin America since at least the 1800s.
i just wanted to say that i think that america really has a problem with racial issues. don't get me wrong. i'm just wondering what this is all about. i wouldn't care if our president was black/white or man/woman. and most other people in the world wouldn't care or talk about it. putting up those kind of issues for discussion is poor.
I understand that Germany is one of the few places on earth without any racial problems.
I think they "fixed" some of those issues back in the 1930s and '40s.
For real though, I had the same thought - aren't places like Berlin going through major turmoil over the growing immigrant (largely non-white) population?
maybe... but it's definitely not about black/white or sexial issues.
not here to discuss german problems. just wanted to point out that i think the usa has a problem with obama being a candidate. or clinton.
30s/40s? germany? i was talking about the thing i hear and read about the current clinton/obama thing. maybe i'm wrong. never said that the US sucks and germany not. but if you want to go like that: native americans and slaves? what's up with that? ever been to an 'indian' reservation? what about that STILL happening in the US?
i just wanted to say that i think that america really has a problem with racial issues. don't get me wrong. i'm just wondering what this is all about. i wouldn't care if our president was black/white or man/woman. and most other people in the world wouldn't care or talk about it. putting up those kind of issues for discussion is poor.
I understand that Germany is one of the few places on earth without any racial problems.
I think they "fixed" some of those issues back in the 1930s and '40s.
For real though, I had the same thought - aren't places like Berlin going through major turmoil over the growing immigrant (largely non-white) population?
maybe... but it's definitely not about black/white or sexial issues.
not here to discuss german problems. just wanted to point out that i think the usa has a problem with obama being a candite. or clinton.
30s/40s? germany? i was talking about the thing i hear and read about the current clinton/obama thing. maybe i'm wrong. never said that the US sucks and germany not. but if you want to go like that: native americans and slaves? what's up with that? ever been to an 'indian' reservation? what about that STILL happening in the US?
30s/40s? germany? i was talking about the thing i hear and read about the current clinton/obama thing. maybe i'm wrong. never said that the US sucks and germany not. but if you want to go like that: native americans and slaves? what's up with that? ever been to an 'indian' reservation? what about that STILL happening in the US?
well, why do people always point out the 30s and 40s in germany then? let's not strart that. i mean it. i'm not mad at all! so no asshurt related statement needed.
Why are you still lumping Ferraro with Hillary if its been established that she wasn't speaking for Hillary's campaign?
What is it code for? the reality that race and gender play a role in the election? Or that the Clintons and Ferraro are racists disguised as liberal democrats for the past 30 years?
And what is up with Keith Olberman? Its commendable to call out Bush and give a "special comment" about the troops dying in Iraq. But doesn't it water it down, when he gives a special comment about whether Hillary was forceful enough in saying Obama is not a muslim. Has he seen that 60 minutes interview? Is a special comment about Britney's failures as a mom up next?
Dude, you love the slippery slope.
It's a big deal when Hillary's campaign -- of which Ferraro is a part, whether or not she was officially speaking for Hillary or not (I think she was) -- is sabotaging her own party's chances of carrying the White House. Shit is very short-sighted and sad. It wouldn't have gotten this bad if more people were smart enough to see their Hillary's nonsense. Obermann is saying something about because of that fact.
Hillary, consciously, is lowering the discourse to the narrow topic of gender/race at a very opportune time. As it is always with her, it's tactical.
30s/40s? germany? i was talking about the thing i hear and read about the current clinton/obama thing. maybe i'm wrong. never said that the US sucks and germany not. but if you want to go like that: native americans and slaves? what's up with that? ever been to an 'indian' reservation? what about that STILL happening in the US?
well, why do people always point out the 30s and 40s in germany then? let's not strart that. i mean it. i'm not mad at all! so no asshurt related statement needed. I feel you, but let's focus. I just kinda wanted to interrupt what could potentially be a 50 pager of pure naglness.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
i just wanted to say that i think that america really has a problem with racial issues. don't get me wrong. i'm just wondering what this is all about.
Start with some basics: legalized slavery from 1600 - 1860s, then move into Jim Crow segregation from 1860s through 1960s. Add in 50 more years of racialized tension, economic upheaval, educational/residential/employment segregation and media stereotyping.
Basically, out of a 400+ year history, America has spent 90% of that time under either/both a de facto or de jure racial dictatorship where one group - white men - held power while non-whites were systemically disenfranchised. Just because some forms of that have been made illegal over the last 40-50 years has hardly done much to redress the long-lasting inequalities created by such history.
Don't forget about the almost total annihilation of the Native population.
"There could never really be justice on stolen land."
Word word - plus the exploitation of immigrant labor from Asia and Latin America since at least the 1800s.
Maybe it doesn't fall under a discussion of racial oppression, but IMO ya gotta include the Irish and Italians into that exploitation of immigrant labor equation as well.
whether or not she was officially speaking for Hillary or not (I think she was) -- is sabotaging her own party's chances of carrying the White House. Shit is very short-sighted and sad. It wouldn't have gotten this bad if more people were smart enough to see their Hillary's nonsense. Obermann is saying something about because of that fact.
what fact?
this discussion is beyond ridiculous. lets ignore what Ferraro is saying and focus specifically on selected phrases. lets ignore that there is no basis to say that Clinton had anything to do with what a former VP candidate has said - but act like she is some talking head for the Clintons. lets ignore that race and gender are obvious factors of this campaign, but call someone a racist (like Bill and Ed Rendell) if they dare discuss what are obvious facts. and - to really make it credible lets continue to make Clinton's "as far as i know" statement into a story, when the actual video dismisses the argument being made.
whether or not she was officially speaking for Hillary or not (I think she was) -- is sabotaging her own party's chances of carrying the White House. Shit is very short-sighted and sad. It wouldn't have gotten this bad if more people were smart enough to see their Hillary's nonsense. Obermann is saying something about because of that fact.
what fact?
this discussion is beyond ridiculous. lets ignore what Ferraro is saying and focus specifically on selected phrases. lets ignore that there is no basis to say that Clinton had anything to do with what a former VP candidate has said - but act like she is some talking head for the Clintons. lets ignore that race and gender are obvious factors of this campaign, but call someone a racist (like Bill and Ed Rendell) if they dare discuss what are obvious facts. and - to really make it credible lets continue to make Clinton's "as far as i know" statement into a story, when the actual video dismisses the argument being made.
proper news work Olberman.
How about we ignore all that and focus on the "commander and chief threshold" BS, a select group which, according to Hillary, she is a part of and so is McCain.
Hillary's only option is to drag down Obama and she is attempting to do so at all costs. The examples are many.
I don't know what Ferraro's role was for Hillary. But I would put money that she is on the select e-mail list that goes out to all the campaign leaders. She gets the marching orders from up top, believe that.
lets ignore that there is no basis to say that Clinton had anything to do with what a former VP candidate has said - but act like she is some talking head for the Clintons. lets ignore that race and gender are obvious factors of this campaign, but call someone a racist (like Bill and Ed Rendell) if they dare discuss what are obvious facts.
KVH, you really think that Clinton and Co wouldn't be all over it if someone even tangentially related to the Obama campaign said the only reason Hillary was still in it is cause she's a woman, or that woman are just caught up in the idea of nominating a woman, thats the only reason she's in it at all? I think statement's like these (if this person wasn't X, they would be Y) are kinda pointless, and I personally think she's much more susceptible to these kinds of charges than he is: redardless of the results saturday, my feeling is that his is a more diverse coalition, despite the efforts to paint him as "the black candidate".
My point here is not to say "USA good, Germany bad" or vice versa. I am, however, genuinely surprised that you find it strange or mysterious that America has racial problems. I don't expect other people around the world to have an intimate knowledge of American racial history but as an American, I have a general idea of some of the social "problems" Germany has experienced over the last 100 years. Surely you must know something about America's history with slavery? Or its treatment of Native Americans?
And under those circumstances, why doesn't our current racial tensions seem like an obvious aspect of America's long-running racial issues?
lets ignore that there is no basis to say that Clinton had anything to do with what a former VP candidate has said - but act like she is some talking head for the Clintons. lets ignore that race and gender are obvious factors of this campaign, but call someone a racist (like Bill and Ed Rendell) if they dare discuss what are obvious facts.
KVH, you really think that Clinton and Co wouldn't be all over it if someone even tangentially related to the Obama campaign said the only reason Hillary was still in it is cause she's a woman, or that woman are just caught up in the idea of nominating a woman, thats the only reason she's in it at all? I think statement's like these (if this person wasn't X, they would be Y) are kinda pointless, and I personally think she's much more susceptible to these kinds of charges than he is: redardless of the results saturday, my feeling is that his is a more diverse coalition, despite the efforts to paint him as "the black candidate".
who cares, that stuff is for the gossip pages and all the bullshit cable news shows like "Morning Joe" that act like statements from any random member or supporter of a campaign are actual "issues".
bill clinton went from an 80% approval rating among dems to being "unfavorable" in a few months time as a result of the media blowup over south carolina. this all seems very McCarthy like. nobody has ever accused the clintons of being racist, and perhaps for that reason, bill thought he could speak truthfully (as did Ed Rendell) about the racial and gender component of this election. he could have been more articulate, but its common knowledge that BIll speaks off the top. imo, he deserves the benefit of the doubt on race issues and so does hillary. i ride for Obama and support the fact that he has, for the most part, ignored these issues...or at least left them for Axlerod and co.
Why are you still lumping Ferraro with Hillary if its been established that she wasn't speaking for Hillary's campaign?
She was[/b] part of Hillary's campaign--the finance committee specifically. Her comments weren't off the record, so why would anyone think they wouldn't be fair game?
And under those circumstances, why doesn't our current racial tensions seem like an obvious aspect of America's long-running racial issues?
In case you haven't noticed, people from countries such as Germany, France, Holland, etc, seem to like to point out how hung up we are in America on race - as if they don't experience massive problems of their own with these issues every day, throughout their histories.
no shot. when Shirley Chisolm ran, she was asked whether it was harder to overcome racial or gender discrimination and she said- without question, it was more difficult because she was a woman.
i'm not saying i believe that to be true, but in case you forgot, Carol Mosely Braun was coincidentally a BLACK US SENATOR FROM ILLINOIS, with much more experience than Obama who ran for President in '04. She dropped out early in the race.
no shot. when Shirley Chisolm ran, she was asked whether it was harder to overcome racial or gender discrimination and she said- without question, it was more difficult because she was a woman.
i'm not saying i believe that to be true, but in case you forgot, Carol Mosely Braun was coincidentally a BLACK US SENATOR FROM ILLINOIS, with much more experience than Obama who ran for President in '04. She dropped out early in the race.
And under those circumstances, why doesn't our current racial tensions seem like an obvious aspect of America's long-running racial issues?
In case you haven't noticed, people from countries such as Germany, France, Holland, etc, seem to like to point out how hung up we are in America on race - as if they don't experience massive problems of their own with these issues every day, throughout their histories.
That's rather ironic coming from you..
Hold up - don't you LIVE in Europe? I mean, isn't that where the record stores have sections that say "BLACK MUSIC" and signs in the front window saying the same thing?
Talking about liking to point this sort of stuff out.
Comments
that looks like Marketability 101...my analogy was strictly basketball related
kobe = basketball god
wade= basketball star
Start with some basics: legalized slavery from 1600 - 1860s, then move into Jim Crow segregation from 1860s through 1960s. Add in 50 more years of racialized tension, economic upheaval, educational/residential/employment segregation and media stereotyping.
Basically, out of a 400+ year history, America has spent 90% of that time under either/both a de facto or de jure racial dictatorship where one group - white men - held power while non-whites were systemically disenfranchised. Just because some forms of that have been made illegal over the last 40-50 years has hardly done much to redress the long-lasting inequalities created by such history.
I understand that Germany is one of the few places on earth without any racial problems.
I think they "fixed" some of those issues back in the 1930s and '40s.
For real though, I had the same thought - aren't places like Berlin going through major turmoil over the growing immigrant (largely non-white) population?
Maybe you don't agree, but I think he speaks for a lot of Democrats when he says the Hillary's adopted all sorts of last-ditch tactics which seem straight out of the Karl Rove playbook. Attacking Obama's biggest strengths, accusing the opponent of tactics that you yourself are engaged in, etc. A lot of people agree with his charecterization of her response to this. To me it seems comparable to Bush's response to the swift boat ads, ie "I dont agree (but I'm happy to reap the benefits of such a discussion)." I also think she's successfully got the media to play along with this storyline that its close by claiming bias; classic Rove.
The fact is this is all academic, she WILL NOT catch up in pledged delegates, so this all a big charade to show superdelegates she has momentum (which her campaign has previously said didn't matter) and overturn the results of the last couple months of elections. She's doing anything she can to try and quietly steal this, and I find a lot of her team's comments and strategy infuriating. You can try and belittle it by comparing it to Britney, but at one point I though she was really a great senator if a little divisive to be the nominee; the way she's ran this campaign, I don't think I would vote for her to be my senator again.
Don't forget about the almost total annihilation of the Native population.
"There could never really be justice on stolen land."
Word word - plus the exploitation of immigrant labor from Asia and Latin America since at least the 1800s.
maybe... but it's definitely not about black/white or sexial issues.
not here to discuss german problems. just wanted to point out that i think the usa has a problem with obama being a candidate. or clinton.
30s/40s? germany?
i was talking about the thing i hear and read about the current clinton/obama thing. maybe i'm wrong. never said that the US sucks and germany not. but if you want to go like that: native americans and slaves? what's up with that? ever been to an 'indian' reservation? what about that STILL happening in the US?
well, why do people always point out the 30s and 40s in germany then? let's not strart that. i mean it. i'm not mad at all! so no asshurt related statement needed.
Dude, you love the slippery slope.
It's a big deal when Hillary's campaign -- of which Ferraro is a part, whether or not she was officially speaking for Hillary or not (I think she was) -- is sabotaging her own party's chances of carrying the White House. Shit is very short-sighted and sad. It wouldn't have gotten this bad if more people were smart enough to see their Hillary's nonsense. Obermann is saying something about because of that fact.
Hillary, consciously, is lowering the discourse to the narrow topic of gender/race at a very opportune time. As it is always with her, it's tactical.
well, why do people always point out the 30s and 40s in germany then? let's not strart that. i mean it. i'm not mad at all! so no asshurt related statement needed.
I feel you, but let's focus. I just kinda wanted to interrupt what could potentially be a 50 pager of pure naglness.
Maybe it doesn't fall under a discussion of racial oppression, but IMO ya gotta include the Irish and Italians into that exploitation of immigrant labor equation as well.
cool and
what fact?
this discussion is beyond ridiculous. lets ignore what Ferraro is saying and focus specifically on selected phrases. lets ignore that there is no basis to say that Clinton had anything to do with what a former VP candidate has said - but act like she is some talking head for the Clintons. lets ignore that race and gender are obvious factors of this campaign, but call someone a racist (like Bill and Ed Rendell) if they dare discuss what are obvious facts. and - to really make it credible lets continue to make Clinton's "as far as i know" statement into a story, when the actual video dismisses the argument being made.
proper news work Olberman.
How about we ignore all that and focus on the "commander and chief threshold" BS, a select group which, according to Hillary, she is a part of and so is McCain.
Hillary's only option is to drag down Obama and she is attempting to do so at all costs. The examples are many.
I don't know what Ferraro's role was for Hillary. But I would put money that she is on the select e-mail list that goes out to all the campaign leaders. She gets the marching orders from up top, believe that.
KVH, you really think that Clinton and Co wouldn't be all over it if someone even tangentially related to the Obama campaign said the only reason Hillary was still in it is cause she's a woman, or that woman are just caught up in the idea of nominating a woman, thats the only reason she's in it at all? I think statement's like these (if this person wasn't X, they would be Y) are kinda pointless, and I personally think she's much more susceptible to these kinds of charges than he is: redardless of the results saturday, my feeling is that his is a more diverse coalition, despite the efforts to paint him as "the black candidate".
My point here is not to say "USA good, Germany bad" or vice versa. I am, however, genuinely surprised that you find it strange or mysterious that America has racial problems. I don't expect other people around the world to have an intimate knowledge of American racial history but as an American, I have a general idea of some of the social "problems" Germany has experienced over the last 100 years. Surely you must know something about America's history with slavery? Or its treatment of Native Americans?
And under those circumstances, why doesn't our current racial tensions seem like an obvious aspect of America's long-running racial issues?
who cares, that stuff is for the gossip pages and all the bullshit cable news shows like "Morning Joe" that act like statements from any random member or supporter of a campaign are actual "issues".
bill clinton went from an 80% approval rating among dems to being "unfavorable" in a few months time as a result of the media blowup over south carolina. this all seems very McCarthy like. nobody has ever accused the clintons of being racist, and perhaps for that reason, bill thought he could speak truthfully (as did Ed Rendell) about the racial and gender component of this election. he could have been more articulate, but its common knowledge that BIll speaks off the top. imo, he deserves the benefit of the doubt on race issues and so does hillary. i ride for Obama and support the fact that he has, for the most part, ignored these issues...or at least left them for Axlerod and co.
She was[/b] part of Hillary's campaign--the finance committee specifically. Her comments weren't off the record, so why would anyone think they wouldn't be fair game?
In case you haven't noticed, people from countries such as Germany,
France, Holland, etc, seem to like to point out how hung up we are in
America on race - as if they don't experience massive problems of their
own with these issues every day, throughout their histories.
I know you meant this as a joke, but if she were, ask this first: would that have impacted Bill's chances as a politician?
Of course. Arkansas circa early 70's - mixed "race" marriage?
She would have to be more relentlessly positive than Obama!
no shot. when Shirley Chisolm ran, she was asked whether it was harder to overcome racial or gender discrimination and she said- without question, it was more difficult because she was a woman.
i'm not saying i believe that to be true, but in case you forgot, Carol Mosely Braun was coincidentally a BLACK US SENATOR FROM ILLINOIS, with much more experience than Obama who ran for President in '04. She dropped out early in the race.
Im talmbout NOW.
That's rather ironic coming from you..
Talking about liking to point this sort of stuff out.