Now that you have found a living, breathing, Mingering Mike, all the tough practical questions that motivated the decision to take the thread down in the first place become real.
The first question is: who owns the stuff? Legally, it's chimp. You bought it from someone who had the right to sell it under the terms of the storage unit contract (which probably include a notice provision, but I'm assuming that notice was provided) so it is legally yours free and clear. Mike could not now establish ownership of the stuff. Authorship, yes; ownership, no. So if you want to be a hard-ass about it (which it doesn't seem like you do), you would have a solid legal foundation beneath you.
The next question is: what do you do with the stuff? Here is where you run into the ethical dilemma. You own this stuff, but it is Mike's creation. He created the artwork and it captures his efforts and his dreams. Sure, you could legally do whatever you wanted with the stuff, but I you're hemmed in by an ethical sense that you want to honor Mike's wishes. In seeking him out, you have made a choice (that not everyone here agreed with) to learn Mike's intentions for his work. Once you discuss what his intentions are, you will learn whether they are in tension with your own.
So far, your decisions are in sync with my ethical instincts. Putting the stuff up right after you found it (how could you keep this bizarre and wonderful find to yourself?), taking it down once it caused a fuss and people starting to find out about his family tree, tracking him down and talking to him about the whole mess - all of these have been the right choices IMO. Your instinct about building trust at this stage is also right on.
As to whether to give him the art and recordings back if he demands it, that is going to have to be your call. We can all say "give it back absolutely because it's his art" or "don't give it back under any circumstances because you own it", but we aren't going to be across the table from him, hearing his story and telling him your vision for his work. I don't envy you being in that position, but I respect you for putting yourself there. As we've discussed on this board before, the ethics of digging enter very hazy areas when the original producer of the art/record becomes involved. We have strong feelings and strong disagreements based on where each of our ethical compasses point. Stick with yours and you'll be able to sleep at night.
My only concrete piece of advice is not to give him money under the current circumstances unless you are buying the stuff directly from him (he may be happy to sell it - who knows?). Under other auspices (like the storage fee you suggested), giving him money could lead him to believe that he should a) expect you to give him money every time you see each other; b) demand more money from you over time; and/or c) establish some greater legal right of ownership in the materials than he currently has. Money is a poor substitute for trust.
The more concrete information you can provide to Mingering Mike when you meet on Saturday, the stronger your position will be in terms of earning his trust. So that means make a conditional plan. Talk to Wax Poetics. Talk to outsider/folk art people. Gauge what the genuine interest level is in the materials. And then lay it all out for Mingering Mike.
Here's a novel idea, perhaps you c*nts could return the collection to Mike, the creator of the work, and he could decide what to do with the collection (and, dare I say, pocket any profit to be made). At this point you don't really need the collection, I'm sure you'll be able to milk this story for all the notoriety it's worth. If you're as greedy and clever as you are lucky you could pitch your story for a book deal, and then parlay that into a script. Just an idea, you freakin' parasites.
Remember how freaked we were over the word mingering? Web searches turned up nothing. We found out that minger was an obscure slaughter house term. Today mingering gets you 67,100 hits.
Remember how some people thought it was no big deal? Just some guy's doodles? On the other hand some people thought Dori and Mike would be millionairs by now.
All I can say is that our homies at the Vanguard Squad absolutely killed it on this one. The record is perfect. Looks just like the real thing, right down to the taped seams.
And the fact that all the profit is going to Mike pretty much says it all. These dudes are all about the love.
Seriously, get yours now. Not only is it a great song, but it's cool just as an object.
I just got home. Great to see the overflow of orders. I'll be up all night filling boxes. Thanks!
james
I appreciate the gesture, but please, dude. My ticket stub is my recompense. You've got PayPal.
I remember things really jumping off that Friday--the day after Chimp's post--and I remember having a hard time sleeping that night, knowing that something like this was coalescing, both out there and in here. The whole thing was sustaining and redemptive in a way that I don't think any of us believed that anything so deeply record-related could still be. And it's still just extrordinary.
the world happens twice
I had the same feeling. I was at my miserable office job slaving away at my SQLusion, hitting refresh every ten seconds, thinking, "this is amazing."
Looking back, it's nice to have the same excitement today that I had about the possibilities in Dori's first post. So many of these stories (not that other stories are really like this) end disgracefully, with some miserablist looting the last bit of charm. [color:white]The record business is one of the saddest roads, leading everywhere.[/color] Dori has maintained honor through all this, putting Mike's wishes above everything. I admire that.
It's good to see other people surprised at the fact that they didn't post in the original thread. For the amount of time I spent in it, I made not a peep. I attribute it to the weight, like when a song causes a wellspring of emotion inside you, and you really want to scream or cry or just "ungh!", but you're afraid it might spoil the air around you.
My favorite thing about that thread is Cosmo's entrance. He was standing on the verge of his 500th post (ha! back when 500 was a landmark) and used post #499 to exclaim, in sporadic CAPS LOCK, the extreme range of emotions he was experiencing. His post ends with a declaration that he is leaving his house on his way to DC, having never met Dori, much less knowing where he was going. So great. It summed up everything I was feeling in a sort-of The Way of a Pilgrim sense. Sometimes you just need to start walking and figure out where you're going as you make your way.
[color:pink]dude brought THEE ALIEN out of hiding to challah about this man...
chimp for real thats the find of the decade - i am not kidding - HOLLER!!!
i need to know more asap... my mind has been officially blown.
dude, i been rationing these very last posts by i could NOT HOLD THIS IN.
"PEOPLE... HOLD ON" (in a major way!)
you in DC? im on the way holmes. the snow just might tie me up, but ill be there by saturday. think im lying when im not? CHALLAH!!![/color]
(The past is pink)
...why did you press it on a small-hole 45?
Probably to display more of Mingering Mike's artistic goodness!
That was a surprise. We had the labels custom made as pressing plants only offer a stock choice of minimum colors. Through film, printing, and plating we specified "big hole." After the shipment landed, and I tore into the first box and saw the small hole, I was bummed (the administration of making records--price quotes, lacquers, CMYK, spot tone, tracking numbers, compatible format/incompatible format, acetates, test presses, endless forms, etc.--is a convoluted process with a thousand possibilities for error, and this record presented several interesting challenges), but we didn't think it was worth re-pressing.
We are not the hands-off types. We like to get up in people's business. And for the amount of crazy demands we had for this, the miscommunication about small v. big hole wasn't worth the time and cost involved to rectifying it.
Good news: There was a printing overage, so we had a bunch of extra labels as well as the white label test presses. We gave everything to Mike, as it seemed fitting that he should have them.
Here's a photo of some of the original reels. You can see Mike had very specific ideas ("Please No echo's", "One copy of a 45 dis to be made from this tape, please") about what he wanted to happen to his music.
I love seeing an artist with conviction, totally absorbed and committed. It's great that other people get a chance to share in his committment. I admire Mike for being such a positive, gentle force for good things. And cheers to Dori for being a force against the miserablists. Two true gentlemen; an unlikely match.
Speak according to the madness that has seduced you.
Thanks for the reish, Dan. I reread the whole thread (or at least the first two pages of the thread - the webarchive wouldn't let me get the third page), and there is a surprise lurking in there. Based on the post you reished, Faux outed me to the board as a lawyer, and then wanted to know if we worked for the same company, because he was working for the NY office of a Chicago-based firm at the time. As it turns out, we didn't. But ...
After I left the job I had at the time our lives began mingering, I went to work for a big Chicago-based firm that has offices in NY. I was working there when Katrina hit, when the Heatrocks began to fly. When paypal tried to squash the outpouring of love from soulstrut to Nawlins, I worked with Bambouche to get our money out of limbo. I'd shared a pm or two with bam before this episode, but nothing too personal. As we were working on drafting a reply to get our money back ASAP, he called me and left a voicemail which my memory transcribes as follows:
[color:pink] Um, hey J*****. This is Eric. I hope that I dialed the right number because your voicemail said something about biglawfirm...and i work for biglawfirm. I hope I dialed the right number. Anyway, if this is you, give me a call back.[/color]
Bam's self-described SQLusion was on behalf of my employer, just in our NY office. We've both moved on to different and better apartments, jobs, and stations in life, but for a while there serendipity led Bambouche and JRoot to have their paychecks signed by the same dude.
All I can say is that our homies at the Vanguard Squad absolutely killed it on this one. The record is perfect. Looks just like the real thing, right down to the taped seams.
Now we're going to have to do a full length..
I see the two things I was going to mention about this were already addressed by Dori, but in the process, I wanted to say what an excellent job you all did with this record. Such amazing detail (down to the brown marker overlapping the folded edges of the 45 jacket)!
Thanks again for all of the hard work that was put into the execution of this totally unique artifact. Great song with endless charm, to boot.
Please to move ahead with plans of that full length (and let me know if there's anything I can do to help).
Got mine in last week and it really is great, fantastic packaging. Bambouche, could you let me know were you got the jackets printed & vinyl pressed? PM me if you don't want to put it on Front Street.
DJ Shadow bought some for his djshadow.com store, should be updated in the next week or so.
And of course the soulstrut-specifics: Good Records NYC will have it by Wednesday, Jump Jump in Portland, OR and Som Records in DC both have it in stock now. The record is making it's way to other indie shops around the world as well.
For those of you who've got it already, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Bambouche, could you let me know were you got the jackets printed & vinyl pressed? PM me if you don't want to put it on Front Street.
No secrets.
The jackets were done by Stumptown Printers in Portland, OR. Stumptown has a beautiful letterpress as well as an offset press, which was used for this 45. Stumptown uses vegetable-based inks and post-consumer waste paper as well as low impact press checmicals (so their employees stay healthy). Stumptown operates as a collective co-operative, and the owners are the nicest people in the world. A complete joy to work with. We are quite particular, and they are quite capable.
The tapes were transferred here in Brooklyn by Paul Gold at Salt Mastering. There are few places in the world who can master in the analog domain, much less have working, calibrated, well-maintained tape machines. Paul is great. He transferred the original 1/4" 7.5ips tapes with no problem, and cut several lacquers until we got it perfect.
The lathe is fed with two signals: a preview signal fed to the lathe's drive one revolution before the signal fed to the cutter. The cutting is dynamic, with the cutting head on the lathe constantly adjusting to accomodate the complexity, volume, stereo width and bass content of the signal. Mike's songs were not easy to cut. Most master tapes are stereo mixes of multi-track recordings, Mike and The Big "D" recorded this live, with one microphone, straight to tape. Therefore, the tape had transient spikes in volume that played hell on the cutting head. This could be avoided by excessively limiting and/or compressing the signal, but we wanted to keep it as true to the original as possible. [/aside]
The lacquers were sent to Bill Smith Custom Records in El Segundo, CA for plating and pressing. The choice was between Bill Smith and RTI for pressing.
About 9 months from start to finish. Well worth it.
Haha! It pays not to lurk! I hope I'm not too late. I've been busy lately, and distracted with some of life's disappointments. As I said in the email, the very idea of this 45 makes me feel good. I'm really feeling this right now. I'm going to re-read the OG thread for nostalgia.
Just ordered it through Dischord. I was meaning to buy the latest Glen E. Friedman book, "Keep Your Eyes Open: The Fugazi Photographs" book and the Deadline e.p. anyway, and the Mingering 45 sealed the deal!
Just ordered it through Dischord. I was meaning to buy the latest Glen E. Friedman book, "Keep Your Eyes Open: The Fugazi Photographs" book and the Deadline e.p. anyway, and the Mingering 45 sealed the deal!
I'd be interested in knowing how the Deadline re-print came out.
I heard an interview with Friedman around the time the book came out; he told a story of being at a Fugazi show in NY (what later became part of Instrument), post-Nevermind explosion, where Ahmet Erteg??n showed up backstage with a briefcase full of cash offering to buy, not only Fugazi, but all of Dischord. Erteg??n was sent in to close the deal (after several other label execs were refused) mostly because of his D.C. background. Friedman said Fugazi politely declined the outrageous offer and promptly asked Erteg??n about D.C. bands from bygone eras.
i picked up 2 copies at NYC's Good records the other day. I prolly shouldnt be buying records since im unemployed but felt it completely necessary to cop this, i think i got 409 & 410 of 1,000 what you got! who got 1/1000? 1000/1000?
also, this looks totally amazing. i may have to pick up a few more for holiday gifts. -richard
Comments
Here is Jroots excellent post from way back when:
Now that you have found a living, breathing, Mingering Mike, all the tough practical questions that motivated the decision to take the thread down in the first place become real.
The first question is: who owns the stuff?
Legally, it's chimp. You bought it from someone who had the right to sell it under the terms of the storage unit contract (which probably include a notice provision, but I'm assuming that notice was provided) so it is legally yours free and clear. Mike could not now establish ownership of the stuff. Authorship, yes; ownership, no. So if you want to be a hard-ass about it (which it doesn't seem like you do), you would have a solid legal foundation beneath you.
The next question is: what do you do with the stuff?
Here is where you run into the ethical dilemma. You own this stuff, but it is Mike's creation. He created the artwork and it captures his efforts and his dreams. Sure, you could legally do whatever you wanted with the stuff, but I you're hemmed in by an ethical sense that you want to honor Mike's wishes. In seeking him out, you have made a choice (that not everyone here agreed with) to learn Mike's intentions for his work. Once you discuss what his intentions are, you will learn whether they are in tension with your own.
So far, your decisions are in sync with my ethical instincts. Putting the stuff up right after you found it (how could you keep this bizarre and wonderful find to yourself?), taking it down once it caused a fuss and people starting to find out about his family tree, tracking him down and talking to him about the whole mess - all of these have been the right choices IMO. Your instinct about building trust at this stage is also right on.
As to whether to give him the art and recordings back if he demands it, that is going to have to be your call. We can all say "give it back absolutely because it's his art" or "don't give it back under any circumstances because you own it", but we aren't going to be across the table from him, hearing his story and telling him your vision for his work. I don't envy you being in that position, but I respect you for putting yourself there. As we've discussed on this board before, the ethics of digging enter very hazy areas when the original producer of the art/record becomes involved. We have strong feelings and strong disagreements based on where each of our ethical compasses point. Stick with yours and you'll be able to sleep at night.
My only concrete piece of advice is not to give him money under the current circumstances unless you are buying the stuff directly from him (he may be happy to sell it - who knows?). Under other auspices (like the storage fee you suggested), giving him money could lead him to believe that he should a) expect you to give him money every time you see each other; b) demand more money from you over time; and/or c) establish some greater legal right of ownership in the materials than he currently has. Money is a poor substitute for trust.
The more concrete information you can provide to Mingering Mike when you meet on Saturday, the stronger your position will be in terms of earning his trust. So that means make a conditional plan. Talk to Wax Poetics. Talk to outsider/folk art people. Gauge what the genuine interest level is in the materials. And then lay it all out for Mingering Mike.
Whatever you do - keep us posted!
Minger on,
JRoot
Who can forget this post from JustReadNYTimes?
Here's a novel idea, perhaps you c*nts could return the collection to Mike, the creator of the work, and he could decide what to do with the collection (and, dare I say, pocket any profit to be made). At this point you don't really need the collection, I'm sure you'll be able to milk this story for all the notoriety it's worth. If you're as greedy and clever as you are lucky you could pitch your story for a book deal, and then parlay that into a script. Just an idea, you freakin' parasites.
Remember how some people thought it was no big deal? Just some guy's doodles? On the other hand some people thought Dori and Mike would be millionairs by now.
And the fact that all the profit is going to Mike pretty much says it all. These dudes are all about the love.
Seriously, get yours now. Not only is it a great song, but it's cool just as an object.
Now we're going to have to do a full length..
I had the same feeling. I was at my miserable office job slaving away at my SQLusion, hitting refresh every ten seconds, thinking, "this is amazing."
Looking back, it's nice to have the same excitement today that I had about the possibilities in Dori's first post. So many of these stories (not that other stories are really like this) end disgracefully, with some miserablist looting the last bit of charm. [color:white]The record business is one of the saddest roads, leading everywhere.[/color] Dori has maintained honor through all this, putting Mike's wishes above everything. I admire that.
It's good to see other people surprised at the fact that they didn't post in the original thread. For the amount of time I spent in it, I made not a peep. I attribute it to the weight, like when a song causes a wellspring of emotion inside you, and you really want to scream or cry or just "ungh!", but you're afraid it might spoil the air around you.
My favorite thing about that thread is Cosmo's entrance. He was standing on the verge of his 500th post (ha! back when 500 was a landmark) and used post #499 to exclaim, in sporadic CAPS LOCK, the extreme range of emotions he was experiencing. His post ends with a declaration that he is leaving his house on his way to DC, having never met Dori, much less knowing where he was going. So great. It summed up everything I was feeling in a sort-of The Way of a Pilgrim sense. Sometimes you just need to start walking and figure out where you're going as you make your way.
(The past is pink)
That was a surprise. We had the labels custom made as pressing plants only offer a stock choice of minimum colors. Through film, printing, and plating we specified "big hole." After the shipment landed, and I tore into the first box and saw the small hole, I was bummed (the administration of making records--price quotes, lacquers, CMYK, spot tone, tracking numbers, compatible format/incompatible format, acetates, test presses, endless forms, etc.--is a convoluted process with a thousand possibilities for error, and this record presented several interesting challenges), but we didn't think it was worth re-pressing.
We are not the hands-off types. We like to get up in people's business. And for the amount of crazy demands we had for this, the miscommunication about small v. big hole wasn't worth the time and cost involved to rectifying it.
Good news: There was a printing overage, so we had a bunch of extra labels as well as the white label test presses. We gave everything to Mike, as it seemed fitting that he should have them.
Here's a photo of some of the original reels. You can see Mike had very specific ideas ("Please No echo's", "One copy of a 45 dis to be made from this tape, please") about what he wanted to happen to his music.
I love seeing an artist with conviction, totally absorbed and committed. It's great that other people get a chance to share in his committment. I admire Mike for being such a positive, gentle force for good things. And cheers to Dori for being a force against the miserablists. Two true gentlemen; an unlikely match.
Speak according to the madness that has seduced you.
Yes.
And what about the remix project? I'm surprised there are no remixes of There's Nothing Wrong With You Baby on Soulstrut already.
What I would really love to hear is the Dapp Kings, or the Roots, or Amy Winehouse, or Eryka Badu, or Amos Lee, or Madonna cover one of Mike's tunes.
Thanks for the reish, Dan. I reread the whole thread (or at least the first two pages of the thread - the webarchive wouldn't let me get the third page), and there is a surprise lurking in there. Based on the post you reished, Faux outed me to the board as a lawyer, and then wanted to know if we worked for the same company, because he was working for the NY office of a Chicago-based firm at the time. As it turns out, we didn't. But ...
After I left the job I had at the time our lives began mingering, I went to work for a big Chicago-based firm that has offices in NY. I was working there when Katrina hit, when the Heatrocks began to fly. When paypal tried to squash the outpouring of love from soulstrut to Nawlins, I worked with Bambouche to get our money out of limbo. I'd shared a pm or two with bam before this episode, but nothing too personal. As we were working on drafting a reply to get our money back ASAP, he called me and left a voicemail which my memory transcribes as follows:
Bam's self-described SQLusion was on behalf of my employer, just in our NY office. We've both moved on to different and better apartments, jobs, and stations in life, but for a while there serendipity led Bambouche and JRoot to have their paychecks signed by the same dude.
Only connect,
JRoot
(and how the hell did I not post in the original Mingering Mike thread? I clearly remember it...hmmmm?)
I see the two things I was going to mention about this were already addressed by Dori, but in the process, I wanted to say what an excellent job you all did with this record. Such amazing detail (down to the brown marker overlapping the folded edges of the 45 jacket)!
Thanks again for all of the hard work that was put into the execution of this totally unique artifact. Great song with endless charm, to boot.
Please to move ahead with plans of that full length (and let me know if there's anything I can do to help).
Bambouche, could you let me know were you got the jackets printed & vinyl pressed?
PM me if you don't want to put it on Front Street.
Mingering Mike 45
...also...
Mingering Mike Book
DJ Shadow bought some for his djshadow.com store, should be updated in the next week or so.
And of course the soulstrut-specifics: Good Records NYC will have it by Wednesday, Jump Jump in Portland, OR and Som Records in DC both have it in stock now. The record is making it's way to other indie shops around the world as well.
For those of you who've got it already, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.
No secrets.
The jackets were done by Stumptown Printers in Portland, OR. Stumptown has a beautiful letterpress as well as an offset press, which was used for this 45. Stumptown uses vegetable-based inks and post-consumer waste paper as well as low impact press checmicals (so their employees stay healthy). Stumptown operates as a collective co-operative, and the owners are the nicest people in the world. A complete joy to work with. We are quite particular, and they are quite capable.
The tapes were transferred here in Brooklyn by Paul Gold at Salt Mastering. There are few places in the world who can master in the analog domain, much less have working, calibrated, well-maintained tape machines. Paul is great. He transferred the original 1/4" 7.5ips tapes with no problem, and cut several lacquers until we got it perfect.
The lathe is fed with two signals: a preview signal fed to the lathe's drive one revolution before the signal fed to the cutter. The cutting is dynamic, with the cutting head on the lathe constantly adjusting to accomodate the complexity, volume, stereo width and bass content of the signal. Mike's songs were not easy to cut. Most master tapes are stereo mixes of multi-track recordings, Mike and The Big "D" recorded this live, with one microphone, straight to tape. Therefore, the tape had transient spikes in volume that played hell on the cutting head. This could be avoided by excessively limiting and/or compressing the signal, but we wanted to keep it as true to the original as possible.
[/aside]
The lacquers were sent to Bill Smith Custom Records in El Segundo, CA for plating and pressing. The choice was between Bill Smith and RTI for pressing.
About 9 months from start to finish. Well worth it.
good work all round fellas
Great 7".
I'll be watching the FINDS threads
I'd be interested in knowing how the Deadline re-print came out.
I heard an interview with Friedman around the time the book came out; he told a story of being at a Fugazi show in NY (what later became part of Instrument), post-Nevermind explosion, where Ahmet Erteg??n showed up backstage with a briefcase full of cash offering to buy, not only Fugazi, but all of Dischord. Erteg??n was sent in to close the deal (after several other label execs were refused) mostly because of his D.C. background. Friedman said Fugazi politely declined the outrageous offer and promptly asked Erteg??n about D.C. bands from bygone eras.
also, this looks totally amazing. i may have to pick up a few more for holiday gifts.
-richard