How many of you 60's rock guys know the "canon" of 30's and 40's music???
I would assume some, but certainly not all.
So why is it strange that a 20 year old kid today doesn't know, or care, about 60's and 70's music??
You need to step back and stop believeing that "your" genre or era was as important as you think it was.
Bud - I'm in my 20s. In my opinion, the last decent Dylan album came out four or five years before I was born. Besides, we're not exactly talking about a niche artist, here. Who is this Madonna that everyone keeps talking about? John Coltrane? Isn't he that guy who played blues music?
And the people on this board sure used to like '60s and '70s music. I thought that was a pre-requisite to, you know, talking about it. Times have changed, I guess.
Hey, Rich, was Van Gogh just a painter from Holland? Should I still know about him?
You think the world's greatest grafitti artists know or care about Van Gogh??
I'd image that the "greatest" ones do. Just becase they live in a city doesn't mean...
Frankly, you could argue that living in a city/cultural center would make them more predisposed to learning about Van Gogh, Monet, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc. through all the museums/culture in a city.
Since when people OUGHT to know Bob Dylan to be considered normal or decent?? I don't give a flying fuck about Rolling Stones and i feel very good, very accomplished and mature. I don't feel like i'm "missing" on something. I have Stax and Motown to comfort me in my ignorance. More serioously, it's just a matter of what tickles your spine or not. Dylan never did nothing to my spine. Ramsey Lewis did. I can talk for days about Curtis Mayfield but i can talk 30 seconds about Dylan...
And Rich, you started a post on Waxidermy very similar to what Kitchenknight is saying a few months ago...
I've certainly said that if you know the rare psych/folk/rock you should know the mainstream psych/folk/rock......but this is about folks who don't know, nor care, about neither....and I can definitely understand that.
Since when people OUGHT to know Bob Dylan to be considered normal or decent?? I don't give a flying fuck about Rolling Stones and i feel very good, very accomplished and mature. I don't feel like i'm "missing" on something. I have Stax and Motown to comfort me in my ignorance. More serioously, it's just a matter of what tickles your spine or not. Dylan never did nothing to my spine. Ramsey Lewis did. I can talk for days about Curtis Mayfield but i can talk 30 seconds about Dylan...
Boy, are people ever dropping their jocks on this board. Again: Do not confuse personal taste (not what I'm talking about) with knowing shit about shit (what I'm fucking talking about). Ignorance is ignorance.
And Rich, you started a post on Waxidermy very similar to what Kitchenknight is saying a few months ago...
I've certainly said that if you know the rare psych/folk/rock you should know the mainstream psych/folk/psych......but this is about folks who know, nor care, about either....and I can definitely understand that.
I guess that's what I'm getting confused about... do they care?
I mean, I know basically zero about rap so I refrain from reading or shooting my mouth off in the 12 million rap threads here. Yet people who seem to know the equivalent amount about something like Dylan quite often preach his irrelivance and suckitude.
And the people on this board sure used to like '60s and '70s music. I thought that was a pre-requisite to, you know, talking about it.
Exactly. I thought this kinda went along with "record collecting thing".
I don't think anybody's saying this stuff isn't up for discussion, I know I'm not ... I'm just frustrated by the concept that one must be familiar with certain artists for their opinions to be relevant - or that saying "I can't name one Dylan song" is flaunting ignorance, maybe it's just the truth. Yes, around here you generally expect a familiarity with music and knowledge of certain artists is taken for granted - but if somebody never heard Dylan it doesn't mean they can't have opinions or something to offer in regards to music.
Put it this way: with all the people around here that CLAIM to know a hell of alot about music and artists, that eventually expose themselves as nowhere near as knowledgeable as they profess to be ... I can respect somebody for being willing to say they don't know somebody or aren't into or learned about a type of music, instead of just "playing along."
And Rich, you started a post on Waxidermy very similar to what Kitchenknight is saying a few months ago...
I've certainly said that if you know the rare psych/folk/rock you should know the mainstream psych/folk/psych......but this is about folks who know, nor care, about either....and I can definitely understand that.
I guess that's what I'm getting confused about... do they care?
I mean, I know basically zero about rap so I refrain from reading or shooting my mouth off in the 12 million rap threads here. Yet people who seem to know the equivalent amount about something like Dylan quite often preach his irrelivance and suckitude.
I guess it's like some dude coming here and saying Run DMC was the shit, and you, not knowing or caring about rap saying, "I can't name one of their songs"??
Bob Dylan is not an easy listen at first, you just don't put on his album and bob your head to this. His shit his hard to swallow. He takes time. Which I've never given to him.
There would be no Hendrix "Watchtower", without Dylan though.
Many artist who cover Dylan usually are better, and not worse. Dude can write.
I actually thought the 'Post a Rap Album You've Never Heard,' was a great look around here for people claiming never to have heard stuff. Very democratic, not at all confrontational or judgemental.
This thread seemed to have a lot more, "I don't know it, and I don't like it," going on.
For a record board that drops so much knowledge on 60s & 70s music & apparently has people who are "music fans" I am astounded that people here are maybe shortsighted enough to not want to explore western popular music enough to even dig back & get familiar with what people listened to in the 1920s through. In all seriousness, there is a lineage you can trace & the way things are all entwined together is fascinating (for me at least & I hope I'm not alone). Some of you guys I think need to get familiar with some music history, it can be interesting & expand your horizons. I'm not saying it's wrong to be ignorant of some of the things mentioned in this thread but you are really doing yourself a disservice if you are pleading ignorance to some of the "big bang artists" of 20th century pop music. Again, you don't have to like them, but it will be more persuasive if you have a watertight argument as to why.
And Rich, you started a post on Waxidermy very similar to what Kitchenknight is saying a few months ago...
I've certainly said that if you know the rare psych/folk/rock you should know the mainstream psych/folk/psych......but this is about folks who know, nor care, about either....and I can definitely understand that.
I guess that's what I'm getting confused about... do they care?
I mean, I know basically zero about rap so I refrain from reading or shooting my mouth off in the 12 million rap threads here. Yet people who seem to know the equivalent amount about something like Dylan quite often preach his irrelivance and suckitude.
I guess it's like some dude coming here and saying Run DMC was the shit, and you, not knowing or caring about rap saying, "I can't name one of their songs"??
And Rich, you started a post on Waxidermy very similar to what Kitchenknight is saying a few months ago...
I've certainly said that if you know the rare psych/folk/rock you should know the mainstream psych/folk/psych......but this is about folks who know, nor care, about either....and I can definitely understand that.
I guess that's what I'm getting confused about... do they care?
I mean, I know basically zero about rap so I refrain from reading or shooting my mouth off in the 12 million rap threads here. Yet people who seem to know the equivalent amount about something like Dylan quite often preach his irrelivance and suckitude.
I guess it's like some dude coming here and saying Run DMC was the shit, and you, not knowing or caring about rap saying, "I can't name one of their songs"??
And Rich, you started a post on Waxidermy very similar to what Kitchenknight is saying a few months ago...
I've certainly said that if you know the rare psych/folk/rock you should know the mainstream psych/folk/psych......but this is about folks who know, nor care, about either....and I can definitely understand that.
I guess that's what I'm getting confused about... do they care?
I mean, I know basically zero about rap so I refrain from reading or shooting my mouth off in the 12 million rap threads here. Yet people who seem to know the equivalent amount about something like Dylan quite often preach his irrelivance and suckitude.
I guess it's like some dude coming here and saying Run DMC was the shit, and you, not knowing or caring about rap saying, "I can't name one of their songs"??
Right. Which I wouldn't do.
Well...you're not one to try to stir up shit
touch??
I suppose there are some pent up feelings in threads like this.
For a record board that drops so much knowledge on 60s & 70s music & apparently has people who are "music fans" I am astounded that people here are maybe shortsighted enough to not want to explore western popular music enough to even dig back & get familiar with what people listened to in the 1920s through. In all seriousness, there is a lineage you can trace & the way things are all entwined together is fascinating (for me at least & I hope I'm not alone). Some of you guys I think need to get familiar with some music history, it can be interesting & expand your horizons. I'm not saying it's wrong to be ignorant of some of the things mentioned in this thread but you are really doing yourself a disservice if you are pleading ignorance to some of the "big bang artists" of 20th century pop music. Again, you don't have to like them, but it will be more persuasive if you have a watertight argument as to why.
See, this is exactly what has me frustrated about this thread, though. Personally? I am all about tracing music back through history and learning as much as I can about as many different genres and eras as possible ... but I don't see the point in browbeating SOMEONE ELSE just because they are not interested in doing the same thing. Telling somebody "you really need to listen to the Rolling Stones to make sure you REALLY hate them" just seems really condescending and pointless to me.
For a record board that drops so much knowledge on 60s & 70s music & apparently has people who are "music fans" I am astounded that people here are maybe shortsighted enough to not want to explore western popular music enough to even dig back & get familiar with what people listened to in the 1920s through. In all seriousness, there is a lineage you can trace & the way things are all entwined together is fascinating (for me at least & I hope I'm not alone). Some of you guys I think need to get familiar with some music history, it can be interesting & expand your horizons. I'm not saying it's wrong to be ignorant of some of the things mentioned in this thread but you are really doing yourself a disservice if you are pleading ignorance to some of the "big bang artists" of 20th century pop music. Again, you don't have to like them, but it will be more persuasive if you have a watertight argument as to why.
See, this is exactly what has me frustrated about this thread, though. Personally? I am all about tracing music back through history and learning as much as I can about as many different genres and eras as possible ... but I don't see the point in browbeating SOMEONE ELSE just because they are not interested in doing the same thing. Telling somebody "you really need to listen to the Rolling Stones to make sure you REALLY hate them" just seems really condescending and pointless to me.
Not knowing Bob Dylan does NOT = ignorance.
Not knowing something = ignorance of that thing. Not liking something = not having a taste for it.
Yes, you fucking DO need to listen to something once or twice before you "hate" it. It's like not seeing knowing the title of a single movie by Martin Scorsese and then telling people on a modern film discussion board as much (with the direct implication being "...and I'm proud of my ignorance because I'm too cool for the director and those of you that like him"). How many times need I reiterate?
If we are talking modern rock & pop music in general (which I think we are) then I have to disagree.
Seemed to me like we were talking about being able to get out of bed in the morning with self-respect. Like, "how can you look at yourself in the mirror without ever listening to Bringing It All Back Home?"
I don't know, maybe I read too much into it, but I saw Brian being called "ignorant" for not being familar with Dylan or the Stones. All I'm saying is, he didn't claim to have some knowledge on 60's music, and THEN was exposed as never hearing Dylan - he seems pretty uninterested in 60's music altogether, and I don't see why that's a problem. You can say "well why did he post in the thread?" but Hemol posted up some "believe it or not" shit about not liking Dylan, so Brian said, well I've never even heard the guy, which may not add much to the discussion, I guess, but wasn't completely out of place, either.
browbeating SOMEONE ELSE just because they are not interested in doing the same thing. Telling somebody "you really need to listen to the Rolling Stones to make sure you REALLY hate them" just seems really condescending and pointless to me.
I guess just not knowing about the Stones would just seem really odd to me. I didn't think I was really browbeating anyone over it, just really making a suggestion, I'm just really shocked that people on a music board such as this would not know that stuff. For me it doesn't take away what they know about whatever genres/artists they are into, but I guess I just took it for granted that people would know things like Dylan, Beatles, Stones etc.
Not knowing Bob Dylan does NOT = ignorance.
Well it kind of does = ignorance about Bob Dylan at least....
Maybe you should stop reiterating and go back to see that he never said he "hated" anything. He only said he had never heard it, and then you jumped all over him.
For a record board that drops so much knowledge on 60s & 70s music & apparently has people who are "music fans" I am astounded that people here are maybe shortsighted enough to not want to explore western popular music enough to even dig back & get familiar with what people listened to in the 1920s through. In all seriousness, there is a lineage you can trace & the way things are all entwined together is fascinating (for me at least & I hope I'm not alone). Some of you guys I think need to get familiar with some music history, it can be interesting & expand your horizons. I'm not saying it's wrong to be ignorant of some of the things mentioned in this thread but you are really doing yourself a disservice if you are pleading ignorance to some of the "big bang artists" of 20th century pop music. Again, you don't have to like them, but it will be more persuasive if you have a watertight argument as to why.
I agree with you, but at the same time I don't. I think that music appreciation doesn't necessarily come with tracing straight lineages, not to say that it doesn't. I for one, was never interested in learning everything I could about any one kind music, and insetad opted to pick up anything I could find and put it down as soon as I lost interest. To quote Kitchenknight's (I think it was kitchenknight) quotation of a quotation there is not enough time in a life for music. I just want a smattering of anything I come into contact with, and when osmething really grabs me I sit with it for a while and take it apart. I'm far more interested in what is disparate than what is similar. So, when I hear something that sounds like something else that I'm already familiar with I rarely remain engaged (unless I can dance to it).
I got into Leonard Cohen before I really listened to Dylan, so Dylan always sounded like a pale comparison to me. I'm not gonna knock the dude, because I have no reason to. I'm not saying that if you know one artist from a genre you know them all, but I do think that an intimate knowledge of one artist from a genre can suffice in the synthesis of knowledge of a genre.
I'm with you on the idea that its fascinating to trace the connectedness of music, I simply prefer to do it by locating similarities in odd places (like ancient gu-qin music of China and Storm and Stress).
Comments
Bud - I'm in my 20s. In my opinion, the last decent Dylan album came out four or five years before I was born. Besides, we're not exactly talking about a niche artist, here. Who is this Madonna that everyone keeps talking about? John Coltrane? Isn't he that guy who played blues music?
And the people on this board sure used to like '60s and '70s music. I thought that was a pre-requisite to, you know, talking about it. Times have changed, I guess.
You think the world's greatest grafitti artists know or care about Van Gogh??
Nope. He was before your time.
I'd image that the "greatest" ones do. Just becase they live in a city doesn't mean...
Probably.
Frankly, you could argue that living in a city/cultural center would make them more predisposed to learning about Van Gogh, Monet, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc. through all the museums/culture in a city.
Since when people OUGHT to know Bob Dylan to be considered normal or decent??
I don't give a flying fuck about Rolling Stones and i feel very good, very accomplished and mature. I don't feel like i'm "missing" on something. I have Stax and Motown to comfort me in my ignorance.
More serioously, it's just a matter of what tickles your spine or not. Dylan never did nothing to my spine. Ramsey Lewis did. I can talk for days about Curtis Mayfield but i can talk 30 seconds about Dylan...
Exactly. I thought this kinda went along with "record collecting thing".
Who writes off music from the 60's and 70's on this board?
I've certainly said that if you know the rare psych/folk/rock you should know the mainstream psych/folk/rock......but this is about folks who don't know, nor care, about neither....and I can definitely understand that.
Boy, are people ever dropping their jocks on this board. Again: Do not confuse personal taste (not what I'm talking about) with knowing shit about shit (what I'm fucking talking about). Ignorance is ignorance.
I guess that's what I'm getting confused about... do they care?
I mean, I know basically zero about rap so I refrain from reading or shooting my mouth off in the 12 million rap threads here. Yet people who seem to know the equivalent amount about something like Dylan quite often preach his irrelivance and suckitude.
I don't think anybody's saying this stuff isn't up for discussion,
I know I'm not ... I'm just frustrated by the concept that one must
be familiar with certain artists for their opinions to be relevant -
or that saying "I can't name one Dylan song" is flaunting ignorance,
maybe it's just the truth. Yes, around here you generally expect a
familiarity with music and knowledge of certain artists is taken for
granted - but if somebody never heard Dylan it doesn't mean they can't
have opinions or something to offer in regards to music.
Put it this way: with all the people around here that CLAIM to know a
hell of alot about music and artists, that eventually expose themselves
as nowhere near as knowledgeable as they profess to be ... I can respect
somebody for being willing to say they don't know somebody or aren't into
or learned about a type of music, instead of just "playing along."
I guess it's like some dude coming here and saying Run DMC was the shit, and you, not knowing or caring about rap saying, "I can't name one of their songs"??
There would be no Hendrix "Watchtower", without Dylan though.
Many artist who cover Dylan usually are better, and not worse. Dude can write.
This thread seemed to have a lot more, "I don't know it, and I don't like it," going on.
Right. Which I wouldn't do.
Well...you're not one to try to stir up shit
touch??
I suppose there are some pent up feelings in threads like this.
See, this is exactly what has me frustrated about this thread, though.
Personally? I am all about tracing music back through history and learning
as much as I can about as many different genres and eras as possible ...
but I don't see the point in browbeating SOMEONE ELSE just because they are
not interested in doing the same thing. Telling somebody "you really need to
listen to the Rolling Stones to make sure you REALLY hate them" just seems
really condescending and pointless to me.
Not knowing Bob Dylan does NOT = ignorance.
If we are talking modern rock & pop music in general (which I think we are) then I have to disagree.
Lesson 1: This is who Bob Dylan looked up to for writing inspiration.
But he (Guthrie) also looked up to:
Not knowing something = ignorance of that thing. Not liking something = not having a taste for it.
Yes, you fucking DO need to listen to something once or twice before you "hate" it. It's like not
seeingknowing the title of a single movie by Martin Scorsese and then telling people on a modern film discussion board as much (with the direct implication being "...and I'm proud of my ignorance because I'm too cool for the director and those of you that like him"). How many times need I reiterate?Seemed to me like we were talking about being able to
get out of bed in the morning with self-respect. Like,
"how can you look at yourself in the mirror without ever
listening to Bringing It All Back Home?"
I don't know, maybe I read too much into it, but I saw Brian being
called "ignorant" for not being familar with Dylan or the Stones.
All I'm saying is, he didn't claim to have some knowledge on 60's
music, and THEN was exposed as never hearing Dylan - he seems pretty
uninterested in 60's music altogether, and I don't see why that's a
problem. You can say "well why did he post in the thread?" but Hemol
posted up some "believe it or not" shit about not liking Dylan, so Brian
said, well I've never even heard the guy, which may not add much to the
discussion, I guess, but wasn't completely out of place, either.
I didn't think I was really browbeating anyone over it, just really making a suggestion, I'm just really shocked that people on a music board such as this would not know that stuff. For me it doesn't take away what they know about whatever genres/artists they are into, but I guess I just took it for granted that people would know things like Dylan, Beatles, Stones etc.
Well it kind of does = ignorance about Bob Dylan at least....
Maybe you should stop reiterating and go back to see
that he never said he "hated" anything. He only said
he had never heard it, and then you jumped all over him.
I got into Leonard Cohen before I really listened to Dylan, so Dylan always sounded like a pale comparison to me. I'm not gonna knock the dude, because I have no reason to. I'm not saying that if you know one artist from a genre you know them all, but I do think that an intimate knowledge of one artist from a genre can suffice in the synthesis of knowledge of a genre.
I'm with you on the idea that its fascinating to trace the connectedness of music, I simply prefer to do it by locating similarities in odd places (like ancient gu-qin music of China and Storm and Stress).