I don't think that arguing for Bob Dylan's place in the canon is necessarily rockist; it is a discussion that will tilt towards rock, but if someone were saying they hadn't heard Curtis Mayfield, we could just as easily be having this discussion about him. I think it is a broader view of 20th Century American Popular Music, which includes Stevie Wonder and Ella Fitzgerald and Bob Dylan and LL Cool J, and Public Enemy, and Jay Z.
This isn't necessarily a Rockist argument, for his inclusion; it just so happens to be about a rock artist, so the argument has steered that way.
Sure it is--I think the outrage is fueled by certain peoples' tendency to see rock at the center of the narrative of popular music.
I can't see many people reacting the same way with respect to LL Cool J or Public Enemy. I know I wouldn't. While somebody's lack of familiarity with those artists may mean that I would not be able to find much common ground with them in a music discussion--and that they should stay out of rap-oriented discussions--it doesn't mean that they don't have anything worthwhile to say about popular music.
Matter of fact, look at Pickwick--there's a dude with zero interest in rap, but I don't think anybody would have the temerity to suggest that that gap in his knowledge renders all of his opinions on popular music suspect.
I hear what you're saying but I guess it gets blurry where exactly one genre ends and another begins.
If Brian wrote "I don't like James Brown," would that diminish his ability to appreciate hip-hop? I guess that all depends. But to me, this kind of relative shell-game means that one can pretty much dismiss the idea that musical geneaologies and networks are unimportant at all since one can narrow their preference field so thin that it excludes everything.
I don't think Dylan has to sit on top of a pantheon that people are required to know. But, to echo an oft-said point in this thread, creating a post around it seems tantamount to flaunting an attitude that reeks of false rebellion.
I can't get with this idea that you absolutely must be conversant with his music if you're "genuinely interested in American pop music". If you're going to present yourself as a person with a real interest in the streams of musical expression that Dylan's career intersected with then, yeah, he's a dominant figure and you really should know him. But as far as I can tell the one Brian pretty much only listens to rap, which has absolutely nothing to do with Dylan
I don't consider someone whose musical world view ONLY consists of rap as qualifying as a "genuine interest in American pop music."
Well, it depends what you mean by "genuine interest in American pop music"--I take it to mean a genuine interest in some streams of American popular music; most people do not have an over-arching interest in all of them. I'm not even sure "American popular music" is a meaningful phrase at this point when used that way.
I also think this conversation would work better outside of accusations of rockism (however tongue-in-cheek) since rockism (as I'm sure Faux knows) has a very specific narrative and canon associated with it. Rather, it seems like this is a larger (though similar) argument over whether ANY musical genre has a canon of "important figures" within it that one should be conversant with in order to (notice the scare quotes) "fully appreciate" the genre.
See, I don't really think that's what the debate is about. I think what you're articulating is, in fact, a pretty uncontroversial point. I think the argument is over whether any musical genre has a canon of "important figures" within it that people with little to no interest in the genre should nonetheless be conversant with in order to "fully appreciate" popular music.
Matter of fact, look at Pickwick--there's a dude with zero interest in rap, but I don't think anybody would have the temerity to suggest that that gap in his knowledge renders all of his opinions on popular music suspect.
It would if he was trying to talk about contemporary pop music. If he wants to talk about 1960s soul, well, sure, hip-hop doesn't speak to that unless via some weird time machine.
Maybe not many of you were alive when the "old school" folk heads cursed Dylan and banished him from their scope of music after he went "electric".
Just picture the irony of those folks stating that all these young ignorant whippersnapper Dylan rock fans were lame because they didn't know and/or appreciate the "real" of Woody, Leadbelly and Josh White.
Sure, some of them did know about the older generation of artists, and Dylan may have inspired some of them to delve backwards....but most of them didn't.
I hear what you're saying but I guess it gets blurry where exactly one genre ends and another begins.
If Brian wrote "I don't like James Brown," would that diminish his ability to appreciate hip-hop? I guess that all depends. But to me, this kind of relative shell-game means that one can pretty much dismiss the idea that musical geneaologies and networks are unimportant at all since one can narrow their preference field so thin that it excludes everything.
I don't think Dylan has to sit on top of a pantheon that people are required to know. But, to echo an oft-said point in this thread, creating a post around it seems tantamount to flaunting an attitude that reeks of false rebellion.
Well, I don't believe he said that he didn't "like" Dylan--only that he couldn't name any of his songs. And, yes, he obviously was trying to get a rise out of people, but that doesn't mean that anybody's reactionary pronouncements were justified.
As to James Brown:
1. He's very clearly a part of hip-hop's prehistory and is perhaps its single most important figure; his career did, in fact, intersect with that aesthetic stream. So if you're going to present yourself as "genuinely interested" in rap then, yeah, you should know his music.
2. I was thinking about it this morning and James Brown is actually the one artist that I think virtually anyone interested in American popular music of the second half of the 20th century should be familiar with.
I was thinking about it this morning and James Brown is actually the one artist that I think virtually anyone interested in American popular music of the second half of the 20th century actually should be familiar with.
Just to throw this out there:
Can you like any form (past or present) of soul music and NOT have an familiarity/interest in Sam Cooke?
I was thinking about it this morning and James Brown is actually the one artist that I think virtually anyone interested in American popular music of the second half of the 20th century actually should be familiar with.
Just to throw this out there:
Can you like any form (past or present) of soul music and NOT have an familiarity/interest in Sam Cooke?
Discuss.
You can certainly "like" it--the question is whether you can hold yourself out as being knowledgable, to which I think the answer is no.
But having a viscerally positive reaction to a record is not dependent upon a detailed knowledge of its antecedents--that's just not the way most people approach music.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
I was thinking about it this morning and James Brown is actually the one artist that I think virtually anyone interested in American popular music of the second half of the 20th century actually should be familiar with.
Just to throw this out there:
Can you like any form (past or present) of soul music and NOT have an familiarity/interest in Sam Cooke?
Discuss.
I'd say not, at least in terms of familiarity. Ironically, I was driven to investigate Sam Cooke as a youngster because Rod Stewart used to cite him as a major influence. A lot of other people I know got into him after "Wonderful World" was used in a Levi's ad in the 80's, back when appropriating classic songs in such a way wasn't as commonplace as it is now.
I was thinking about it this morning and James Brown is actually the one artist that I think virtually anyone interested in American popular music of the second half of the 20th century actually should be familiar with.
Just to throw this out there:
Can you like any form (past or present) of soul music and NOT have an familiarity/interest in Sam Cooke?
Discuss.
You can certainly "like" it--the question is whether you can hold yourself out as being knowledgable, to which I think the answer is no.
But having a viscerally positive reaction to a record is not dependent upon a detailed knowledge of its antecedents--that's just not the way most people approach music.
Yeah, I shouldn't have used "like". "Consider oneself knowledgable" feels a bit clunky though.
I'LL GO ALL DAY W/ YOU ON ROCK HISTORY BIG DAWG. I CAN'T FUCK W/ DYLAN. WELL, I CAN FUCK W/ "DESIRE" BUT "BLONDE ON BLONDE" IS SOME SERIOUS WTF TYPE SHIT.
AND SORRY BUT I'D RATHER LISTEN TO RCR THAN THE DEAD. I'VE HEARD ALL THE GOOD RECORDS. RCR IS LIKE THE PARTS OF THOSE RECORDS I LIKE AND NOT 15 MINUTES OF NOODLING.
I have always found that Dylan hate is often ameliorated by watching 'Don't Look Back'. Scenes of an angry drug-fueled Dylan cutting folky "poser" Donovan (who I actually like) and getting his prima donna on seem to dispel the whiny singer songwriter image that he often gets tagged with by young kids unfamiliar with his work.
In regards to Faux's statement about PE and Curtis (or whoever it was). Imagine someone saying that they hated their work. Most on SS would assume that they are missing out on two monumental pop artists from the past 50 years. The fact that it doesn't happen is a shame. That it happens with Dylan so often (especially with kids from the hip-hop generation) only proves how deeply important his music is. Even hip-hop kids end up having to deal with Dylan.
I have always found that Dylan hate is often ameliorated by watching 'Don't Look Back'. Scenes of an angry drug-fueled Dylan cutting folky "poser" Donovan (who I actually like) and getting his prima donna on seem to dispel the whiny singer songwriter image that he often gets tagged with by young kids unfamiliar with his work.
In regards to Faux's statement about PE and Curtis (or whoever it was). Imagine someone saying that they hated their work. Most on SS would assume that they are missing out on two monumental pop artists from the past 50 years. The fact that it doesn't happen is a shame. That it happens with Dylan so often (especially with kids from the hip-hop generation) only proves how deeply important his music is. Even hip-hop kids end up having to deal with Dylan.
Your defense of Dylan is unnecessary; I don't think that anybody has said that they "hate" him. And that's not really what the discussion is about.
I have always found that Dylan hate is often ameliorated by watching 'Don't Look Back'. Scenes of an angry drug-fueled Dylan cutting folky "poser" Donovan (who I actually like) and getting his prima donna on seem to dispel the whiny singer songwriter image that he often gets tagged with by young kids unfamiliar with his work.
In regards to Faux's statement about PE and Curtis (or whoever it was). Imagine someone saying that they hated their work. Most on SS would assume that they are missing out on two monumental pop artists from the past 50 years. The fact that it doesn't happen is a shame. That it happens with Dylan so often (especially with kids from the hip-hop generation) only proves how deeply important his music is. Even hip-hop kids end up having to deal with Dylan.
Your defense of Dylan is unnecessary; I don't think that anybody has said that they "hate" him. And that's not really what the discussion is about.
OK change 'hate' to 'don't like' if you must. I am not 'defending" his music but rather sharing a perspective about the common I don't like Dylan refrains that I hear here (and elsewhere) and some video that turned my head around in my early 20s.
I have always found that Dylan hate is often ameliorated by watching 'Don't Look Back'. Scenes of an angry drug-fueled Dylan cutting folky "poser" Donovan (who I actually like) and getting his prima donna on seem to dispel the whiny singer songwriter image that he often gets tagged with by young kids unfamiliar with his work.
In regards to Faux's statement about PE and Curtis (or whoever it was). Imagine someone saying that they hated their work. Most on SS would assume that they are missing out on two monumental pop artists from the past 50 years. The fact that it doesn't happen is a shame. That it happens with Dylan so often (especially with kids from the hip-hop generation) only proves how deeply important his music is. Even hip-hop kids end up having to deal with Dylan.
Your defense of Dylan is unnecessary; I don't think that anybody has said that they "hate" him. And that's not really what the discussion is about.
OK change 'hate' to 'don't like' if you must. I am not 'defending" his music but rather sharing a perspective about the common I don't like Dylan refrains that I hear here (and elsewhere) and some video that turned my head around in my early 20s.
I don't think that anybody said that they "don't like" it either, though. The debate is over whether or not it is essential to be familar with it, not over whether or not it's good.
I have always found that Dylan hate is often ameliorated by watching 'Don't Look Back'. Scenes of an angry drug-fueled Dylan cutting folky "poser" Donovan (who I actually like) and getting his prima donna on seem to dispel the whiny singer songwriter image that he often gets tagged with by young kids unfamiliar with his work.
In regards to Faux's statement about PE and Curtis (or whoever it was). Imagine someone saying that they hated their work. Most on SS would assume that they are missing out on two monumental pop artists from the past 50 years. The fact that it doesn't happen is a shame. That it happens with Dylan so often (especially with kids from the hip-hop generation) only proves how deeply important his music is. Even hip-hop kids end up having to deal with Dylan.
Your defense of Dylan is unnecessary; I don't think that anybody has said that they "hate" him. And that's not really what the discussion is about.
OK change 'hate' to 'don't like' if you must. I am not 'defending" his music but rather sharing a perspective about the common I don't like Dylan refrains that I hear here (and elsewhere) and some video that turned my head around in my early 20s.
I don't think that anybody said that they "don't like" it either, though. The debate is over whether or not it is essential to be familar with it, not over whether or not it's good.
I'd like to refer you to the title of the this thread.
I don't know why people think that this scene was a headcutting contest between Dylan and Donovan, it just looks like two cats having a guitar pull in a hotel room to me.
I have always found that Dylan hate is often ameliorated by watching 'Don't Look Back'. Scenes of an angry drug-fueled Dylan cutting folky "poser" Donovan (who I actually like) and getting his prima donna on seem to dispel the whiny singer songwriter image that he often gets tagged with by young kids unfamiliar with his work.
In regards to Faux's statement about PE and Curtis (or whoever it was). Imagine someone saying that they hated their work. Most on SS would assume that they are missing out on two monumental pop artists from the past 50 years. The fact that it doesn't happen is a shame. That it happens with Dylan so often (especially with kids from the hip-hop generation) only proves how deeply important his music is. Even hip-hop kids end up having to deal with Dylan.
Your defense of Dylan is unnecessary; I don't think that anybody has said that they "hate" him. And that's not really what the discussion is about.
OK change 'hate' to 'don't like' if you must. I am not 'defending" his music but rather sharing a perspective about the common I don't like Dylan refrains that I hear here (and elsewhere) and some video that turned my head around in my early 20s.
I don't think that anybody said that they "don't like" it either, though. The debate is over whether or not it is essential to be familar with it, not over whether or not it's good.
I'd like to refer you to the title of the this thread.
Eh, that kid bowed out long before it became a substantive discussion.
This has become such a huge clusterfuck that I don't really know what to comment on anymore... but I absolutely do not see this argument as "rockist" (which I've always found to be a pretty stupid term). You could apply this very argument on behalf of any major modern songwriter... I would make the exact same arguments for Curtis or James Brown as I would for the Beatles or Dylan. And I honestly question how many people would dismiss any of these artists if they'd given them more than a token play or two. When people shrug off Dylan it is always some superficial "I don't like his voice", or "I like covers of his songs better" bullshit. I am not saying you have to like him, but the reasons often stated for not liking him are usually pretty weak.
AND SORRY BUT I'D RATHER LISTEN TO RCR THAN THE DEAD. I'VE HEARD ALL THE GOOD RECORDS. RCR IS LIKE THE PARTS OF THOSE RECORDS I LIKE AND NOT 15 MINUTES OF NOODLING.
WHAT UP?
Gene, if you think Dead studio albums are filled with 15 minute noodle jams, it is apparent you haven't listened to them. A boatload of 3-4 minute songs...
Meanwhile, I'm listening to the ultra sopisticated RCR noodle away in between such genius, mind blowing verses as, "easy ride...ride into the sky...got to take the road, I don't know why..."
Seriously. This record sounds like some hippydippysundrencheddead shit to me. Which I don't mind, but damn...A lot of toocoolforschool on this one.
(wordsruntogether are my ALL CAPS.)
Hold on...now the wind chimes are starting on the next track...
AND SORRY BUT I'D RATHER LISTEN TO RCR THAN THE DEAD. I'VE HEARD ALL THE GOOD RECORDS. RCR IS LIKE THE PARTS OF THOSE RECORDS I LIKE AND NOT 15 MINUTES OF NOODLING.
WHAT UP?
Gene, if you think Dead studio albums are filled with 15 minute noodle jams, it is apparent you haven't listened to them. A boatload of 3-4 minute songs...
Meanwhile, I'm listening to the ultra sopisticated RCR noodle away in between such genius, mind blowing verses as, "easy ride...ride into the sky...got to take the road, I don't know why..."
Seriously. This record sounds like some hippydippysundrencheddead shit to me. Which I don't mind, but damn...A lot of toocoolforschool on this one.
(wordsruntogether are my ALL CAPS.)
Hold on...now the wind chimes are starting on the next track...
This has become such a huge clusterfuck that I don't really know what to comment on anymore... but I absolutely do not see this argument as "rockist" (which I've always found to be a pretty stupid term).
This has become such a huge clusterfuck that I don't really know what to comment on anymore... but I absolutely do not see this argument as "rockist" (which I've always found to be a pretty stupid term).
AND SORRY BUT I'D RATHER LISTEN TO RCR THAN THE DEAD. I'VE HEARD ALL THE GOOD RECORDS. RCR IS LIKE THE PARTS OF THOSE RECORDS I LIKE AND NOT 15 MINUTES OF NOODLING.
WHAT UP?
Gene, if you think Dead studio albums are filled with 15 minute noodle jams, it is apparent you haven't listened to them. A boatload of 3-4 minute songs...
Meanwhile, I'm listening to the ultra sopisticated RCR noodle away in between such genius, mind blowing verses as, "easy ride...ride into the sky...got to take the road, I don't know why..."
Seriously. This record sounds like some hippydippysundrencheddead shit to me. Which I don't mind, but damn...A lot of toocoolforschool on this one.
(wordsruntogether are my ALL CAPS.)
Hold on...now the wind chimes are starting on the next track...
Who said anything about "ultra sophisticated"?
DON'T GET MAD AT ME COS YOU WENT TO PHISH CONCERTS. THAT'S ON YOU.
Dude, that is some noodly ass shit right there. i like it, but don't be taking the pool noodle out of that river just cuz your scared to end up like...
Comments
Sure it is--I think the outrage is fueled by certain peoples' tendency to see rock at the center of the narrative of popular music.
I can't see many people reacting the same way with respect to LL Cool J or Public Enemy. I know I wouldn't. While somebody's lack of familiarity with those artists may mean that I would not be able to find much common ground with them in a music discussion--and that they should stay out of rap-oriented discussions--it doesn't mean that they don't have anything worthwhile to say about popular music.
Matter of fact, look at Pickwick--there's a dude with zero interest in rap, but I don't think anybody would have the temerity to suggest that that gap in his knowledge renders all of his opinions on popular music suspect.
If Brian wrote "I don't like James Brown," would that diminish his ability to appreciate hip-hop? I guess that all depends. But to me, this kind of relative shell-game means that one can pretty much dismiss the idea that musical geneaologies and networks are unimportant at all since one can narrow their preference field so thin that it excludes everything.
I don't think Dylan has to sit on top of a pantheon that people are required to know. But, to echo an oft-said point in this thread, creating a post around it seems tantamount to flaunting an attitude that reeks of false rebellion.
It would if he was trying to talk about contemporary pop music. If he wants to talk about 1960s soul, well, sure, hip-hop doesn't speak to that unless via some weird time machine.
Just picture the irony of those folks stating that all these young ignorant whippersnapper Dylan rock fans were lame because they didn't know and/or appreciate the "real" of Woody, Leadbelly and Josh White.
Sure, some of them did know about the older generation of artists, and Dylan may have inspired some of them to delve backwards....but most of them didn't.
Well, I don't believe he said that he didn't "like" Dylan--only that he couldn't name any of his songs. And, yes, he obviously was trying to get a rise out of people, but that doesn't mean that anybody's reactionary pronouncements were justified.
As to James Brown:
1. He's very clearly a part of hip-hop's prehistory and is perhaps its single most important figure; his career did, in fact, intersect with that aesthetic stream. So if you're going to present yourself as "genuinely interested" in rap then, yeah, you should know his music.
2. I was thinking about it this morning and James Brown is actually the one artist that I think virtually anyone interested in American popular music of the second half of the 20th century should be familiar with.
Just to throw this out there:
Can you like any form (past or present) of soul music and NOT have an familiarity/interest in Sam Cooke?
Discuss.
You can certainly "like" it--the question is whether you can hold yourself out as being knowledgable, to which I think the answer is no.
But having a viscerally positive reaction to a record is not dependent upon a detailed knowledge of its antecedents--that's just not the way most people approach music.
I'd say not, at least in terms of familiarity. Ironically, I was driven to investigate Sam Cooke as a youngster because Rod Stewart used to cite him as a major influence. A lot of other people I know got into him after "Wonderful World" was used in a Levi's ad in the 80's, back when appropriating classic songs in such a way wasn't as commonplace as it is now.
Yeah, I shouldn't have used "like". "Consider oneself knowledgable" feels a bit clunky though.
I'LL GO ALL DAY W/ YOU ON ROCK HISTORY BIG DAWG. I CAN'T FUCK W/ DYLAN. WELL, I CAN FUCK W/ "DESIRE" BUT "BLONDE ON BLONDE" IS SOME SERIOUS WTF TYPE SHIT.
AND SORRY BUT I'D RATHER LISTEN TO RCR THAN THE DEAD. I'VE HEARD ALL THE GOOD RECORDS. RCR IS LIKE THE PARTS OF THOSE RECORDS I LIKE AND NOT 15 MINUTES OF NOODLING.
WHAT UP?
In regards to Faux's statement about PE and Curtis (or whoever it was). Imagine someone saying that they hated their work. Most on SS would assume that they are missing out on two monumental pop artists from the past 50 years. The fact that it doesn't happen is a shame. That it happens with Dylan so often (especially with kids from the hip-hop generation) only proves how deeply important his music is. Even hip-hop kids end up having to deal with Dylan.
Your defense of Dylan is unnecessary; I don't think that anybody has said that they "hate" him. And that's not really what the discussion is about.
OK change 'hate' to 'don't like' if you must. I am not 'defending" his music but rather sharing a perspective about the common I don't like Dylan refrains that I hear here (and elsewhere) and some video that turned my head around in my early 20s.
I don't think that anybody said that they "don't like" it either, though. The debate is over whether or not it is essential to be familar with it, not over whether or not it's good.
I'd like to refer you to the title of the this thread.
I don't know why people think that this scene was a headcutting contest between Dylan and Donovan, it just looks like two cats having a guitar pull in a hotel room to me.
Eh, that kid bowed out long before it became a substantive discussion.
Gene, if you think Dead studio albums are filled with 15 minute noodle jams, it is apparent you haven't listened to them. A boatload of 3-4 minute songs...
Meanwhile, I'm listening to the ultra sopisticated RCR noodle away in between such genius, mind blowing verses as, "easy ride...ride into the sky...got to take the road, I don't know why..."
Seriously. This record sounds like some hippydippysundrencheddead shit to me. Which I don't mind, but damn...A lot of toocoolforschool on this one.
(wordsruntogether are my ALL CAPS.)
Hold on...now the wind chimes are starting on the next track...
HAHAHAHAHA
Track 2...starting with windchimes...then, a quick verse...
We now have a guitar-pan flute solo for 3 minutes.
But you're a massive rockist.
Who said anything about "ultra sophisticated"?
DON'T GET MAD AT ME COS YOU WENT TO PHISH CONCERTS. THAT'S ON YOU.
wait for it....
it's comin'...
For whatever reason, RCR hits me but then you grumpy ass muhfuckas gotta come in w/ your presupposed ideas of what cats are "supposed to do/like".
I DON'T LIVE IN THE NORTHEAST NOR DO I LIKE PEOPLE SO NO WORRIES ON YR BOY BIGG DOGG GETTIN' WOOKIED OUT.
Oh, and Crink and KK.....