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Paypal reversing charges

sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
edited July 2007 in Strut Central
I use Paypal to purchase, and to be honest I dont even know how it works. I dont know if they charge me or the seller a fee, or what criteria is used to determine if a buyer or seller is confirmed or not. The sellers on this board are always voicing their complaints about buyers reversing charges, and there must be a deceptive trade practice suit in here where Paypal allows this to happen, especially if they are collecting a fee on the charges. Can someone walk me through how the reverse charge scam works, who pays the fees on the charges, and what makes a person a confirmed or unconfirmed seller?

  Comments

  • dreas_heardrumsdreas_heardrums 686 Posts
    I don't know how the scam you are referring to works, but here is a scenario that taught me a valuable lesson:

    DO NOT SHIP TO AN UNCONFIRMED ADDRESS.

    I sent out a pair of Nike SB's to someone in GA w/ feedback around 20 and 98% positive so I didn't think much of shipping to an unconfirmed address, as I figured the person was a legit buyer. He receives the shoes, POSTS POSITIVE FEEDBACK telling me that he "loves the kicks" or whatever and I return a positive back to him. About a month later, I log on to my PayPal account and see $100 reversed charges back to buyer! I contact PayPal and their customer service was apologetic, but "we cannot do anything about this sir." I'm explaining to them how the buyer is wearing my shoes right now and even posted positive feedback on eBay, and how I have 100% positive feedback with (150) at the time and it didn't matter because I shipped the shoes to an unconfirmed address and apparently the buyer has all the rights in this situation. Needless to say, I got real on them, asked to speak to a supervisor, and she actually credited my account for the entire amount. I will never ship to an unconfirmed address again unless I have done business w/ the buyer or I know them personally.
  • obscure_addictobscure_addict 869 Posts
    As said before in another thread, unconfirmed simply means the buyer does not have a credit card on file with confirmed address to where he/she lives at. I've mailed to at least a few hundred unconfirmed buyers with paypal and no problems...

    Basically ebay/paypal boil down to one word... TRUST! If your an honest man/woman.
  • dreas_heardrumsdreas_heardrums 686 Posts
    Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure I was only hit with the inital charges and no charges on the reversal.

    Shipping to a Buyer's Confirmed Address from Paypal.com

  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    As a seller, when you take part in a paypal transaction.

    Do you pay a fee for people sending you money?

    Do you pay a fee when the money is charged back by a buyer?

    Do you pay a fee if the money is eventually refunded?

    How do you become a confirmed seller (or more importantly if you know) how do you become a confirmed buyer?

    Does Paypal require you to keep a certain amount of money in your account?

    what explanation does paypal give for allowing this to happen?
  • PATXPATX 2,820 Posts
    RTFM
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts

    this is assuming that the buyer is reversing the charges because the buyer has been the victim of a fruad where goods are shipped to an address other than that of the buyer. this doesnt cover buyers who are committing fraud against sellers.
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    As said before in another thread, unconfirmed simply means the buyer does not have a credit card on file with confirmed address to where he/she lives at. I've mailed to at least a few hundred unconfirmed buyers with paypal and no problems...

    Basically ebay/paypal boil down to one word... TRUST! If your an honest man/woman.


    but does paypal allow some unscrupulous buyers to abuse the paypal platform to perpetrate a fraud on some sellers knowingly and maybe let it happen because they receive a fee for each transaction?
  • dreas_heardrumsdreas_heardrums 686 Posts
    Possibly...

    I entertained the idea that they knowingly allow this kind of stuff to happen when I thought my $100 was being jacked.

    http://aboutpaypal.org/ bashes PayPal...I haven't had much time to look at it yet, but you might find some info on there.

    Also, peep the google steez.
  • dgriotdgriot 388 Posts
    I was under the impression that a Merchant Account is the way to go once selling records becomes a full time business and not just a weekend hobby. Even if you're not making enough to cover the cost-differential, the ability to have access to the customer's CC for refund/tracking purposes + infinitely better seller support is worth it.
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    lets say, im a seller. I sell you my widget for $100 and you pay me through paypal.

    1. How much money comes out of your (the buyer) account (i.e., is there an additional fee)?


    2. How much money makes it into my (the seller) acoount (i.e., is there a fee on my end)?

    3. In a chargeback, do any of these fees get refunded?
  • hcrinkhcrink 8,729 Posts
    lets say, im a seller. I sell you my widget for $100 and you pay me through paypal.

    1. How much money comes out of your (the buyer) account (i.e., is there an additional fee)?


    2. How much money makes it into my (the seller) acoount (i.e., is there a fee on my end)?

    3. In a chargeback, do any of these fees get refunded?

    You get charged nothing for buying the widget. I get charged $3-4 for receiving paymanet via paypal on the widget. You run a charge-back and I take a loss on everything, postage, fees, etc...
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    and the rationale behind the "confirmed" "unconfirmed" distinction is to protect the buyer[/b] from potential fraud?

    another question. does anyone know the process by which you perfrom a chargeback? are there any requirements? do you have to allege fraud? or do you just click the mouse and the money comes back?
  • asstroasstro 1,754 Posts
    The rationale is to protect a buyer from paying for an item that the seller never ships out.

    When it happened to me the buyer just said that he never received the item, and since I sent without delivery confirmation, Paypal took the buyer's side and I was SOL. The fact that the same buyer ripped off about 20 people at the same time and was proven to be a fraud did not help and I never saw any of my money back. They just banned his username. At least he was nice enough to leave me pos feedback.
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    So, I've been discussing this with some people I know. If anyone in Massachusetts, New York or California who has had this happen to them and would be interested in becoming a class representative in a suit against Paypal let me know. The best class rep is a person who has had this happen at least once, and who has kept good records.
  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    So, I've been discussing this with some people I know. If anyone in Massachusetts, New York or California who has had this happen to them and would be interested in becoming a class representative in a suit against Paypal let me know. The best class rep is a person who has had this happen at least once, and who has kept good records.
    if sabadababababadaba sues paypal successfully, all of his previous transgressions will be wiped clear
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    So, I've been discussing this with some people I know. If anyone in Massachusetts, New York or California who has had this happen to them and would be interested in becoming a class representative in a suit against Paypal let me know. The best class rep is a person who has had this happen at least once, and who has kept good records.
    if sabadababababadaba sues paypal successfully, all of his previous transgressions will be wiped clear

    i've checked and this type of deceptive practices suit has not been filed anywhere. It is an open field.
  • Rich45sRich45s 327 Posts
    I'm sure you are well aware of this site, but if not

    http://www.paypalsucks.com/
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    I checked this site out to see whether anyone has filed suit on this issue, which they haven't. The sight seems to take the position that all is hopeless because of the terms of use. Paypal can draft all the disclaimers that they want, but if they are engaging in deceptive trade practices by allowing chargebacks on transactions that they have received fees on, having received numerous complaints, and continuing to allow it, there is enough there. Frankly, the tone of the site is encouraging because it doesn't appear to pose a serious legal challenge to any of Paypals practices, which means the field is still open.

    You don't have to like me, or be a big seller; you just have to have suffered harm because of this practice.
  • hcrinkhcrink 8,729 Posts
    DO IT
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    im working on it, I have someone I used to work with very interested in the idea, we are just going over the law and then I will work on the complaint and then we will need class reps. where do you live? Mass damages are $25 for each occurrence so no messy damage models.
  • hcrinkhcrink 8,729 Posts
    I'm in CA, but it's been a couple years since it last happened to me and I didn't keep any record of it.
  • asstroasstro 1,754 Posts
    I'm in NY, but this happened to me a few years ago so I don't have great records. I do have emails from the buyer, and from Paypal regarding this, but I'm not sure if it's enough. But please keep me in the loop, I'd love to make Paypal cough us up some compensation.
  • dreas_heardrumsdreas_heardrums 686 Posts
    I have a record of a reversal because it happened a couple months ago. As a stated earlier, I complained to their customer and spoke w/ a supervisor and eventually got the money credited back to my account.

    Either way I would be down to contribute any information you need.
  • aleitaleit 1,915 Posts
    im working on it, I have someone I used to work with very interested in the idea, we are just going over the law and then I will work on the complaint and then we will need class reps. where do you live? Mass damages are $25 for each occurrence so no messy damage models.

    i'm in.
    ny state.

    pending chargeback on a $200 record filed today by an ebay buyer.
    no previous contact from the buyer regarding non-receipt of the record.
    buyer also took more than two weeks to pay despite 7 day agreement stated in the auction description.

    this is the click the mouse option from paypal.

    $200 record? shit, i'm broke, shouldn't have bought that ---> click ---> click ---> refund!
    brilliant.

    i
  • PATXPATX 2,820 Posts
    im working on it, I have someone I used to work with very interested in the idea, we are just going over the law and then I will work on the complaint and then we will need class reps. where do you live? Mass damages are $25 for each occurrence so no messy damage models.

    i'm in.
    ny state.

    pending chargeback on a $200 record filed today by an ebay buyer.
    no previous contact from the buyer regarding non-receipt of the record.
    buyer also took more than two weeks to pay despite 7 day agreement stated in the auction description.

    this is the click the mouse option from paypal.

    $200 record? shit, i'm broke, shouldn't have bought that ---> click ---> click ---> refund!
    brilliant.

    i

    I think Slabber's angle is more about the $10 fee they charge when they unsuccessfully try really hard to plead your side of the dispute. But then fail and have to charge you for it. Conflict of interest. Paypal will refund you if you cry to them, which shows they know it's unethical. But I wouldn't hold my breath, and I'm sure he would have to read up on CA state law, not NY.

    Oh, I just re-read it and no that's not what he's on about... but maybe should be

    I think the "buyer protection" angle is their whole selling point, and they would argue that's why so many people use them, including sellers with no bricks and mortar reputation or culpability. The buyer dispute charges, however, are very stinky.
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