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  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts
    I dont think the recently deceased Vonnegut could even have envisioned serial killers sending press packs to corporations. Unbelievable...

    Hello, *Zodiac Killer*, but I guess he wasn't this crass and obnoxious....not much new under the sun, just our endless appetite for self inflicted misery and the seeming need to 'understand' the mind of a serial killer.

  • paulnicepaulnice 924 Posts

    Just saw the tape.
    I can't agree about the similarity between Eng and Cho.
    I think there's a world of difference.
    While Eng is clearly a pathetic loser looking to get a rise out of folks, Cho was (at least to me) clearly in a LOT of pain.
    Call me nuts but I actually do feel a slight tinge of sympathy for him while watching the tape.
    I'm sad/angry that no one (parents, docters, etc.) did more to help him.
    He quite obviously needed it.

  • tripledoubletripledouble 7,636 Posts

    Just saw the tape.
    I can't agree about the similarity between Eng and Cho.
    I think there's a world of difference.
    While Eng is clearly a pathetic loser looking to get a rise out of folks, Cho was (at least to me) clearly in a LOT of pain.
    Call me nuts but I actually do feel a slight tinge of sympathy for him while watching the tape.
    I'm sad/angry that no one (parents, docters, etc.) did more to help him.
    He quite obviously needed it.

    yeah paul. i had some similar feelings...but really i came away thinking that dude was just twisted up i na knot of rage and clearly unbalanced. maybe there was some point where he could have used some type of intervention.

    i was kind of transfixed by the video, but after reading SOIs thoughts, i got to totally agree...fuck that shit. i dont want to think about that shit. i just spent ten minutes looking at profiles of the victims...much more worthy of my time. it had me crying to see such a international, young, bright, diverse group of people who were involved in so much good.

    and day, thanks for mentioning Iraq. lets not ge desensitized that hundreds of innocent people a week are getting killed in food markets and on the street. whatever our political differences may be, most can agree that it is just a horrible horrible ordeal.

    take care everybody. for real. and take care of each other

  • SnagglepusSnagglepus 1,756 Posts
    i just spent ten minutes looking at profiles of the victims...much more worthy of my time. it had me crying to see such a international, young, bright, diverse group of people who were involved in so much good.

    It is really tough to look into the eyes of all those vibrant people and picture what they had to go through and to think all of their hard work, talent, life experience, friendships ... all disappear because of one severely hurting person. It's just such a horrible shockwave that affects so many people at once.

    But, yes, it would be good if photo essays like that were produced for people dying in Iraq as well (on both sides). Just seeing numbers in a newspaper ... it just gets to the point of surreality where you can't really comprehend what is happening over there. 200 people? Those are human beings with friends, families, stories, knowledge, hell ... even record collections. They're missed just as much as the people in Virginia, and yet most Americans just see the number over their morning coffee and then flip the page. There needs to be more effort made to personalize the tragedy so that people can at least start to get a grip on what is going on over there.

    There was a DJ at the radio station I work at that used to always name all of the U.S. soldiers that had died over the past week. Even just hearing a name can connect you to a person a bit ... it helps to cut through that callous that inevitably builds up when so much of this shit is happening at once.

    Damn ... too much to think about.

  • dayday 9,611 Posts
    See those flowers, they need love
    see the bluebirds, they need love
    see the babies, they need love
    all God's children, oh need love

    see your mother, she needs love
    and my father, he needs love
    that's true baby, and I need love too

    see those rain drop, rivers they need love
    and the mountains and the valleys, they need love
    God forgive us, and send us more love from above
    don't find good love every day, we ought to think
    before we throw good love away

    doesn't matter, what you are
    a thief or a beggar or even a superstar
    as long as you were made by God above
    oh, I know, I know, you need love, we need love

    baby, oh, I need love, I need your love, (I'm standing here), oh baby standing in the need of love, I need love
    I need it, I got to have it baby
    oh can't you see that I'm standing in the need

    I'm still here cause I need love
    I'm still with you dear
    cause I need your love
    and I know, oh yes I know
    though you feel you don't need loving,
    you still need loving too, oh yes you do

    it don't matter no, it doesn't matter what you are
    a thief or a beggar or a superstar
    as long as the Lord made you from above
    I know, I know
    you were made for love(cause love is what you need and understanding) oh, understanding

    (various voice overs and adlibs) you were made for love, sweet understanding why can't we see we were made for love
    you were made for love baby, sweet understanding, why can't we see, we (you) were made for love (why is it so hard for us today to see the real) we were made from love, you were made of love baby you were made to love baby

    what's the only thing that's gonna get us together (love's the only thing that's gonna make this cold-blooded world alright) what is this we're singing about for the love of Jesus, let's do it

    I need a whole lot of love, sugar
    I need a whole lot of sweet love

    it's a fact,
    (who) even the slimy snail needs love
    (who) all of the folks in jail need love
    (who) even a mean old man needs love



    Amen.

  • UnherdUnherd 1,880 Posts

    i was kind of transfixed by the video, but after reading SOIs thoughts, i got to totally agree...fuck that shit. i dont want to think about that shit. i just spent ten minutes looking at profiles of the victims...much more worthy of my time. it had me crying to see such a international, young, bright, diverse group of people who were involved in so much good.

    The NYT profiles had links to many of their myspace pages, this shit was very surreal and definitely brought it all home for me...

  • mylatencymylatency 10,475 Posts

    take care everybody. for real. and take care of each other


    ^^^REAL TALK

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    As someone just noted, there's nothing remotely "new" or unprecedented about killers sending stuff to the press - that shit is as old as newsprint. Cho simply upped the ante by getting all multimedia about it, but otherwise, let's recognize that the desire for attention has been a part of countless acts of heinous human behavior.

    And though I admit I have a curiosity with Cho's manifesto, partially out of the basic desire to understand "why", partially b/c of the race issue, I very much agree that the mainstream media is eating off this shit as much as it can and if there ends up being some copycat crimes, the press would have helped facilitate that.

    This is just a larger outcome of how the worlds of media and entertainment have more or less merged and while that too has its roots in times far older than now, the drive of market forces pushing MSM outlets to sensationalize more and more isn't helping things.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts

    Just saw the tape.
    I can't agree about the similarity between Eng and Cho.
    I think there's a world of difference.
    While Eng is clearly a pathetic loser looking to get a rise out of folks, Cho was (at least to me) clearly in a LOT of pain.
    Call me nuts but I actually do feel a slight tinge of sympathy for him while watching the tape.
    I'm sad/angry that no one (parents, docters, etc.) did more to help him.
    He quite obviously needed it.

    The thing, people did try to intervene. In a sense, he actually was guided into social safety nets...but then ultimately fell through. I'm not saying that to assess blame since I don't know, to what extent, people acted to the best of their ability, with what they knew, but in some ways, the system actually worked...up to the point where it stopped. But it's not like no one saw the signs which should give us, in a way, some comfort in realizing that Cho's eruption wasn't wholly ignored by everyone. Of course, what eliminates that comfort is realizing that it still wasn't enough.

    But yeah Paul - I hear what you're saying. I can't imagine what kind of thinking leads someone to indiscriminate acts of extreme violence but in terms of the kind of psychic damage people in their teens or 20s walk around with, I can understand the feelings of marginalization and anger. Just not the "solution" to them.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,331 Posts
    Call me nuts but I actually do feel a slight tinge of sympathy for him while watching the tape.
    I'm sad/angry that no one (parents, docters, etc.) did more to help him.
    He quite obviously needed it.

    This goes exactly in line with what Cosmo said earlier. And I completely agree. It really is a tragedy that something like this has to happen in order for people to be more perceptive and understanding of those in need.

  • The Raise UpThe Raise Up Golden Years... wah wah wah 452 Posts
    i just spent ten minutes looking at profiles of the victims...much more worthy of my time. it had me crying to see such a international, young, bright, diverse group of people who were involved in so much good.

    It is really tough to look into the eyes of all those vibrant people and picture what they had to go through and to think all of their hard work, talent, life experience, friendships ... all disappear because of one severely hurting person. It's just such a horrible shockwave that affects so many people at once.

    But, yes, it would be good if photo essays like that were produced for people dying in Iraq as well (on both sides). Just seeing numbers in a newspaper ... it just gets to the point of surreality where you can't really comprehend what is happening over there. 200 people? Those are human beings with friends, families, stories, knowledge, hell ... even record collections. They're missed just as much as the people in Virginia, and yet most Americans just see the number over their morning coffee and then flip the page. There needs to be more effort made to personalize the tragedy so that people can at least start to get a grip on what is going on over there.

    There was a DJ at the radio station I work at that used to always name all of the U.S. soldiers that had died over the past week. Even just hearing a name can connect you to a person a bit ... it helps to cut through that callous that inevitably builds up when so much of this shit is happening at once.

    Damn ... too much to think about.

    Yeah I see what you mean, just reading about a number of casualties should probably affect me more than it does, but it's just not really possible to comprehend what it all means. Newsweek recently had an issue where they chronologically displayed the Iraq war up until now through letters, e-mails and journals from various people that served there and died. Reading those made me realize much more what was going on. Especially the letters that were made to be read only if they didn't make it home alive, like this one.

  • magpaulmagpaul 1,314 Posts
    where were the parents at?

    i found myself getting quite a headache after reading too much about that guy. trying to fathom what kind of mindset you'd require to do something of this nature is frankly too scary. probably sounds stupid but maybe something small like this guy taking a different major other then english might of caused him not to do it.

  • DuderonomyDuderonomy Haut de la Garenne 7,787 Posts

    slugs are a real mans sport...[/b]

    Quality. Absolutely first class. This is why America will never get rid of guns. 'Real men', 'where are the balls between your legs' - un-fucking believable. Serious insecurities right there, so why not solve them with a nice, powerful penis-compensator? Empowerment is only 9 milimetres away...
    What a sad, sad joke.

    All the talk of the 2nd Ammendment - nobody's going crazy trying to fight for freedom of speach or the right to a fair trial now are they? Where's the money there?

    Birdman - yes, I suppose I must come across like a twelve-year-old to insist there's no reason for Americans to own guns without liscence. Maybe only the young have yet to fully appreciate the insecurities of modern living, and how they can all be solved with 'slugs'.

    Why will America never learn? Look at what's happening in schools, and some morons are suggesting more guns.

  • DuderonomyDuderonomy Haut de la Garenne 7,787 Posts
    ...and re: "guns are fun". If I remember rightly, in a now-famous audio clip, the bombadier of the Nola Gay (a serviceman surely familiar with fire arms), says that once he lined up his sights he "Let the bomb go, and that was my greatest thrill", so I guess guns are for pussys, REAL MEN[/b] drop nukes for fun.

  • kalakala 3,361 Posts

    what is the story behind the story?
    which of his parents was the impoteus or template for his fucked behavior?
    i reckon dude had some serious lack of attention/affection/love from one or both parents
    how else could cho get so twisted at such an early age
    was cho ever a victim of crime,abuse,neglect or abandonment?

  • noznoz 3,625 Posts

    what is the story behind the story?
    which of his parents was the impoteus or template for his fucked behavior?
    i reckon dude had some serious lack of attention/affection/love from one or both parents
    how else could cho get so twisted at such an early age
    was cho ever a victim of crime,abuse,neglect or abandonment?

    well he definitely had some stepfather issues

  • magpaulmagpaul 1,314 Posts
    bunch of profanity-riddled nonsense, i'm amazed submitting shit like that would actually get you a pass. I guess that's what you'd expect from an English course at a Technical school.

    as much as people think that completely ignoring this guy is gonna help, i'm not sure. it will definately help a lot of people get closure, even if they don't appreciate it now, if they understand the motive.

  • DB_CooperDB_Cooper Manhatin' 7,823 Posts

    All the talk of the 2nd Ammendment - nobody's going crazy trying to fight for freedom of speach or the right to a fair trial now are they? Where's the money there?

    Well, free speech and the right to a fair trial don't really have anything to do with this. But when they are an issue, they are plenty of people up in arms about it, to the point where one of the major disses against the left is that they'll defend anything anyone says under the mantle of free speech.

    As for the news coverage, it's just obscene in its ubiquity. CNN has devoted virtually every minute since the story broke to it. Of course, it's important for all of us to know the facts and reflect on the tragedy, but the constant barrage of coverage is frankly a thinly-disguised play for ratings, and I'm disgusted by it. Wallowing in the suffering of others is a terrible look.

    And local news outlets are desperately hoping this story has legs. Why? 4/26???5/23 = Nielsen Local Sweeps.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts


    And local news outlets are desperately hoping this story has legs. Why? 4/26???5/23 = Nielsen Local Sweeps.

    Oh, I wouldnt worried about it. Even if VT falls off the front page, there'll surely be some other scandal to cycle through. Maybe Don Imus will be revealed as the real father of Anna Nicole Smith's daughter.

    And I don't really get why people are surprised that students in college can't write well. When I taught at UC Berkeley, I had plenty of students - of all stripes - who couldn't write well...and that's the best public school in America.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Real men hunt with their bare hands. Fuck a slug!

  • CousinLarryCousinLarry 4,618 Posts


    And I don't really get why people are surprised that students in college can't write well. When I taught at UC Berkeley, I had plenty of students - of all stripes - who couldn't write well...and that's the best public school in America.

    Ha, this is very true. My fianc?? worked at the writing center in college, and had some crazy stories. I once edited a paper that had no discernable paragraphs.

  • keithvanhornkeithvanhorn 3,855 Posts


    And local news outlets are desperately hoping this story has legs. Why? 4/26???5/23 = Nielsen Local Sweeps.

    Oh, I wouldnt worried about it. Even if VT falls off the front page, there'll surely be some other scandal to cycle through. Maybe Don Imus will be revealed as the real father of Anna Nicole Smith's daughter.

    I dont know if you can blame the media for catering to what people want to see. Everybody knows the news stations are for-profit companies, so its strange to me that NBC has to keep prefacing the dude's video by saying either a) "NBC turned this video over to authorities immediately after receiving it"; or b) 'we will only be showing a small portion of the video in respect of the victims and their families'. If people are so offended by all the coverage this dude is getting, they can change the channel (or turn on their computers, open a book, etc.). Obviously this type of news is more appealing to the general public than....basically anything else that is going on in the world. Shit, look at how many pages soulstrut has devoted to it.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Keith,

    I hear what you're saying but news media doesn't exist solely to report on the news that people want to know about. From an editorial point of view, there has to be clear decisions on what deserves to be reported on and that means choices about what to focus on and what to play down.

    As I noted before, so much of media and entertainment is indistinguishable. I don't want the NY Times to start looking like US Weekly just b/c they're trying to respond to public pressure.

    In any case, a recent study found that the more money a newspaper spends on their newsroom, the more their circulation improves. Promising sign in otherwise dark times.

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts


    Birdman - yes, I suppose I must come across like a twelve-year-old to insist there's no reason for Americans to own guns without liscence. Maybe only the young have yet to fully appreciate the insecurities of modern living, and how they can all be solved with 'slugs'.

    I was simply pointing out that you came across as quite naive in that posting, and I stand by that. I don't think all gun control advocates are naive, just those who make statements like you made and continue to make.

  • drewnicedrewnice 5,465 Posts
    I dont know if you can blame the media for catering to what people want to see. Everybody knows the news stations are for-profit companies, so its strange to me that NBC has to keep prefacing the dude's video by saying either a) "NBC turned this video over to authorities immediately after receiving it"; or b) 'we will only be showing a small portion of the video in respect of the victims and their families'.

    The media is just trying to cover it's ass as far as journalistic integrity is concerned. Obviously, people want to see the video/photos he sent to help make sense of why he did this. Does repeatedly showing that material on television further victimize the victims? That's the question they're struggling with. It's a good move for them to preface the issue, so backlash is kept to a minimum.

  • magpaulmagpaul 1,314 Posts


    And I don't really get why people are surprised that students in college can't write well. When I taught at UC Berkeley, I had plenty of students - of all stripes - who couldn't write well...and that's the best public school in America.

    it is a terrible shame! education is treated as a means to the big salary as opposed to opening one's mind and taught in such a rigid pass-exams-at-all-cost mentality.

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts


    As for the news coverage, it's just predictable[/b] in its ubiquity.

  • DB_CooperDB_Cooper Manhatin' 7,823 Posts


    And local news outlets are desperately hoping this story has legs. Why? 4/26???5/23 = Nielsen Local Sweeps.

    Oh, I wouldnt worried about it. Even if VT falls off the front page, there'll surely be some other scandal to cycle through. Maybe Don Imus will be revealed as the real father of Anna Nicole Smith's daughter.

    I dont know if you can blame the media for catering to what people want to see. Everybody knows the news stations are for-profit companies, so its strange to me that NBC has to keep prefacing the dude's video by saying either a) "NBC turned this video over to authorities immediately after receiving it"; or b) 'we will only be showing a small portion of the video in respect of the victims and their families'. If people are so offended by all the coverage this dude is getting, they can change the channel (or turn on their computers, open a book, etc.). Obviously this type of news is more appealing to the general public than....basically anything else that is going on in the world. Shit, look at how many pages soulstrut has devoted to it.

    That's certainly true to a degree, but isn't there some sort of responsibility on the part of news outlets to balance the coverage of this story with coverage of the other important things going on in the world right now? More people have died in Iraq on both sides than at VT since the story broke, but that's old news, apparently. And AG Gonzales testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Didn't hear much about that.

    I'm not placing all of the blame at the feet of the various news media, but if the media simply gave the majority exactly what they wanted all the time, your local newspaper would lead with the comics section, followed by a huge sports section, with local and world news buried among the ads. What ever happened to the idea of the media as the fourth estate - a watchdog over the actions of the government and private corporations alike?

    The saying used be that the role of the journalist is to "comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable." I just don't see that happening here.

  • drewnicedrewnice 5,465 Posts


    And local news outlets are desperately hoping this story has legs. Why? 4/26???5/23 = Nielsen Local Sweeps.

    Oh, I wouldnt worried about it. Even if VT falls off the front page, there'll surely be some other scandal to cycle through. Maybe Don Imus will be revealed as the real father of Anna Nicole Smith's daughter.

    I dont know if you can blame the media for catering to what people want to see. Everybody knows the news stations are for-profit companies, so its strange to me that NBC has to keep prefacing the dude's video by saying either a) "NBC turned this video over to authorities immediately after receiving it"; or b) 'we will only be showing a small portion of the video in respect of the victims and their families'. If people are so offended by all the coverage this dude is getting, they can change the channel (or turn on their computers, open a book, etc.). Obviously this type of news is more appealing to the general public than....basically anything else that is going on in the world. Shit, look at how many pages soulstrut has devoted to it.

    That's certainly true to a degree, but isn't there some sort of responsibility on the part of news outlets to balance the coverage of this story with coverage of the other important things going on in the world right now? More people have died in Iraq on both sides than at VT since the story broke, but that's old news, apparently. And AG Gonzales testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Didn't hear much about that.

    I'm not placing all of the blame at the feet of the various news media, but if the media simply gave the majority exactly what they wanted all the time, your local newspaper would lead with the comics section, followed by a huge sports section, with local and world news buried among the ads. What ever happened to the idea of the media as the fourth estate - a watchdog over the actions of the government and private corporations alike?

    The saying used be that the role of the journalist is to "comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable." I just don't see that happening here.

    This was the worst shooting rampage in U.S. history. A week's worth of front page coverage is not unwarranted, especially with new developments that add context to the tragedy. We have not reached the point of "simply giving the majority exactly what they want all the time".

    And to my knowledge, the Gonzales hearings were postponed because of what happened and begin today.

  • keithvanhornkeithvanhorn 3,855 Posts
    I don't want the NY Times to start looking like US Weekly just b/c they're trying to respond to public pressure.

    Its more like CNN and MSNBC looking like Inside Edition. I dont think the NYT or the Wash Post would ever go tabloid. They are catering to an intellectual base, whereas, the cable news stations (for the time being) are getting a much wider audience than they are used to. People who would otherwise be watching Happy Days reruns are tuning in to check out these videos. Again, imo, this situations is more of a (sad) commentary on society than it is on our media. America's fascination with violence.
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