but lets not forget that castro has been a driving force between a lot of Cuba's strengths: excellent public education system, excellent health care system, self determination.
Self-determination? In Cuba, self-determination is limited to what Castro and the central committee determine for you. Public education system yes, health care system, yes (but no medicine), but self-determination? Hell no. I like Cuba, but I have no illusions that it's a pretty miserable place to live you diverge from the party line.
danno, sorry for the lack of clarity. i meant for the island as a whole, not individuals on it, who of course have tragically limited rights. the island's power structure (whatever you think of them) has been able to set its own course ,much more independently (although not divorced from its wider political context) since the batista regime.
and i definitely hold elected leaders like salvador allende in a higher regard than the unelected castro,but allende didnt last too long (thanks in large part to CIA meddling and funding of his assassination). playing "what if" is just a game, but do you think american political interests could have been kept out of cuba for so long (and the notable public gains of the revolution would have been maintained) had castro not stubbornly stayed in power? i think the tragedy of the revolution is in fact that he decided to impose his own martial law on the island...but if he didnt, cuba would probably be enjoying the "freedoms" and economic inequalities of most other caribbean islands, which is not a good look.
anyway, doesnt america still beat cuba out when it comes to incarcerated citizens per capita? why is that? we have no political prisoners? or are you counting guantanamo as part of cuba?
familiar with this lady's story?
and for real, dont come at me or aaron on some condescending "lack of basic morality" shit. keep getting personal and i will come at your neck.
We probably have more Cubans in our jails than Cuba does thanks to the Mariel Boatlifts.
Most of the fans of Castro I've spoken to are fans simply because he stood up to what they perceive is an evil imperialistic American government.
The pro-Castro sentiment in the U.S. is a fairly recent phenomena, put forth by those who don't necessarily hate America, but hate it's current leadership. Although I've yet to meet anyone who would prefer to live in Castro's Cuba vs. GW's America. I do know of one Ex-Black Panther who has made that choice so it's available to anyone who does indeed feel that way.
Unfortunately Castro doesn't have many fans amongst former Cuban residents nor current ones(although the latter are less likely to say so at the risk of being punished).
We probably have more Cubans in our jails than Cuba does thanks to the Mariel Boatlifts.
Most of the fans of Castro I've spoken to are fans simply because he stood up to what they perceive is an evil imperialistic American government.
The pro-Castro sentiment in the U.S. is a fairly recent phenomena, put forth by those who don't necessarily hate America, but hate it's current leadership. Although I've yet to meet anyone who would prefer to live in Castro's Cuba vs. GW's America. I do know of one Ex-Black Panther who has made that choice so it's available to anyone who does indeed feel that way.
Unfortunately Castro doesn't have many fans amongst former Cuban residents nor current ones(although the latter are less likely to say so at the risk of being punished).
"fans"???? thanks for your anecdote, but dont trivialize how i am looking at castro. dont know if you read the other posts, but castro's revolution did take a third world, american government and mafia run state of coruption, racism and inequality and enhanced the living conditions of the majority of its citizens. Illiteracy was mashed out, everyone was given access to health care and quality education. while hardly eradicated, racism was addressed at all societal levels (keep in mind that this is the early 60s). so its not just a fruity, liberal "yay, he stood up to the imperialists!" sentiment. also, castro actively pursued strong relations with the u.s. after he took power. when u.s companies stopped getting the red carpet to completely exploit cuba's resources, americans forced castro to get aid from the soviets, and the cold war die was cast.
the pro castro sentiment in the u.s. is a fairl recent phenomena
jesus christ rock, where the fuck have you been???? venceremos brigades and cuban sympathizers have been constant since the revolution. i am sure that there was a nadir of support during the missile crisis, but castro has always had his supporters among black americans, american leftists-liberals, academics, students, poor. dude has always been reeeeealllly good at playing the media to his side too.
if the panther youre talking about is assata shakur, she didnt really "make the choice" to go into exile. she was busted out of prison and granted asylum in cuba and wishes she could come back to her family and country of birth.
do you think castro would still be in power if the united states hadnt imposed a full trade embargo?
Unfortunately Castro doesn't have many fans amongst former Cuban residents nor current ones(although the latter are less likely to say so at the risk of being punished).
once again, stop simplifying. cubans who i have spoken to usually dont say "i am a fan" or "no, i am not a fan". but they generally have much more intelligent stances to take on the matter. as i wrote earlier in the thread, the most common responses i have heard from cubans regarding castro are that he has been in power far too long and that he has made many mistakes, although he has the best interests of cubans in mind. but then again, i dont live in miami and dont solicit their opinions.
To end, I like Castro. I don't like everything he does or has done, but I respect him. More than any other of the last 9 American presidents he has outlived. He is a symbol of strength for poor people all over the world. A symbol that one man can lead an anti-capitalist, pro-people government against all odds, 90 miles south of the most powerful military in the world that has been chomping at the bits for almost fifty years to exploit his people and his island. A symbol that inner strength and ideological strength can change the world.
Oh yeah, I like Chavez too.
SONIC
Please to tell this to my grandfather (who I never got to meet) who died broke and in a metal institution in Havana in 86 because he was labeled a ???dissident???.
The Pro-Castro sentiment, while always present in the form of a Joe Hill/Communist/Underground/Lunatic Fringe, has become more "mainstream" or at least our media has presented it as such in recent years.
The Black Panther I was referring to, hijacked a plane to Cuba(I linked a story about him earlier in the thread).
I have friends here in Texas who came to America as small children with their parents when Castro took power. The stories they tell about abuse, theft and destruction of personal property and treatment of those relatives left behind would make anyone ashamed to "support Castro".
Please to tell this to my grandfather (who I never got to meet) who died broke and in a metal institution in Havana in 86 because he was labeled a ???dissident???.
Thanks
Condolences....
This is the type of Government that motivated 100,000's of people to risk their lives and use what ever floatation device available to escape....sounds peachy.
Please to tell this to my grandfather (who I never got to meet) who died broke and in a metal institution in Havana in 86 because he was labeled a ???dissident???.
Thanks
Condolences....
This is the type of Government that motivated 100,000's of people to risk their lives and use what ever floatation device available to escape....sounds peachy.
with all due respect and condolences,
probably some sons,fathers and uncles in that crowd:
sadly, its peachy all around:
america hasnt been responsible for people leaving their homes/homelands? i was chilling with some nice salvadorians last week who had to leave their country years ago to escape u.s. run death squads. not peachy at all.
Should we talk about Guantanamo? Abu Ghraib? COINTELPRO? Abner Louima? tuskeegee syphilis experiments? napalm in vietnam? fulgencio batista's prison and corruption? somosa and the contras? my country is far from innocent and has perpetuated any atrocity that the castro regime has.
u.s.a is indeed a land of opportunity and freedoms. does this give it a pass to incarcerate, assassinate, bomb, economically exploit, limit the freedoms of others? Should i not say anything about our skeletons in the closet simply because i grew up in a privileged white, middle class family? no, i think i will in fact hold my country to a higher standard than all others, because i hold it in such high esteem. our country was founded with roots of slavery and genocide. we have people trapped in abject poverty that eclipses that of any cuban. our society is still struggling to emerge from under a legacy of prejudice and segregation. Should i not say a peep about that and be thankful that i have some guaranteed freedoms? (which are especially guaranteed to white males like myself)
I will keep saying that the tragedy of the cuban revolution is castro's unwillingness to give up power and the limitations that have been imposed on cubans' basic rights. but just like i have much to be proud and grateful for in america, i can look with thankfulness at many results of the cuban revolution and fidel castro's unwillingness to cave in to american hegemony in caribbean/central/latin america.
Do we have to get in to our history supporting banana republics that DID NOT have kind intentions for the majoity of their people?????? governments that hoarded all resources for the ultra rich and unleashed u.s. armed death squads on peasants to perpetuate their sick, gaudy, corrupt, morally bankrupt fantasy lives???? let me know if we want to get into all that. how lavish is castro living??? do you see him stockpiling hundreds of millions of dollars in his family's hands? dude has been in an economic war with the greatest super power in world history for fifty years and yall are surprised there has been jailing of dissidents???????? and dont get me wrong, i am not excusing castro's repressions. it is a true human and historical tragedy. just like all the good america has done for the world has been tarnished by our sad sad past and present abuses.
i'll check back in to the conversation tonight, but right now i am going to go out and enjoy some of the global warming.
We all know who Abner Louima is because he's the EXCEPTION of how people are treated in this country, not the rule.
You can question and disagree with our foriegn policies, whine about Gitmo and other war-related "atrocities", and even point out injustice within our borders, but the bottom line is there is NO hope in Castro's Cuba and there is LOT's of hope in America.
Just ask the 14 million people who have come here in the last 5 years to help share your guilt and shame.
You respect Castro because America is not without disgressions??
That's pretty illogical from where I sit and is the same logic that has some Americans defending Hezbollah's actions.
You wanna call America and it's Government vs. Castro's Cuba the better of two evils, fine.
I'll take "better" everytime if I can't have "perfect", and unless there's some Utopia I haven't been told about, perfect don't exist.
I'll admit that maybe I can't have the same insight that you have since I didn't grow up "priviledged".
We all know who Abner Louima is because he's the EXCEPTION of how people are treated in this country, not the rule.
You can question and disagree with our foriegn policies, whine about Gitmo and other war-related "atrocities", and even point out injustice within our borders, but the bottom line is there is NO hope in Castro's Cuba and there is LOT's of hope in America.
Just ask the 14 million people who have come here in the last 5 years to help share your guilt and shame.
You respect Castro because America is not without disgressions??
That's pretty illogical from where I sit and is the same logic that has some Americans defending Hezbollah's actions.
You wanna call America and it's Government vs. Castro's Cuba the better of two evils, fine.
I'll take "better" everytime if I can't have "perfect", and unless there's some Utopia I haven't been told about, perfect don't exist.
I'll admit that maybe I can't have the same insight that you have since I didn't grow up "priviledged".
i disagree with many of your statements that you believe are facts. and if i valued your opinion more, i would take offense at how you talk about my "guilt shame and whining". your reading interpretation skills are obviously a little rusty, so i wont be frustrated by your illogical inferences. and you can have any insight you want and any opinion you want, whatever your personal background might be. and i am sure that despite afirmative action, the welfare state and other communist plots meant to rob you of your tax dollars, you most likely have enjoyed some of the privileges i have enjoyed while being white and male in this country.
i am not trying to compare, rank, or root for cuba or america. like with most things, i celebrate certain aspects of each country and deplore others. sorry if i cant bring myself to compartmentalize into "good" and "bad" like you manage to do.
i'll check back in to the conversation tonight, but right now i am going to go out and enjoy some of the global warming.
Could u move your family there? Or just yourself? Just wondering.
are you talking about would i move my family to cuba? home is very important to me (that would be philly), so i'd be hesitant to move anywhere. but if i had to choose to live an average life in a third world country ,cuba would be considered. but dont take that answer out of context. my fam grew up in south america and my parents are very leftist leaning. i get a sense of satisfaction working for the common good, gardening, modest lifestyles. my mother is worried about her health and my dad loves dancing. it would be the worst match.
why do you ask? am i coming off like i hate america? or am comparing the two?
danno, sorry for the lack of clarity. i meant for the island as a whole, not individuals on it, who of course have tragically limited rights. the island's power structure (whatever you think of them) has been able to set its own course ,much more independently (although not divorced from its wider political context) since the batista regime.
and i definitely hold elected leaders like salvador allende in a higher regard than the unelected castro,but allende didnt last too long (thanks in large part to CIA meddling and funding of his assassination). playing "what if" is just a game, but do you think american political interests could have been kept out of cuba for so long (and the notable public gains of the revolution would have been maintained) had castro not stubbornly stayed in power? i think the tragedy of the revolution is in fact that he decided to impose his own martial law on the island...but if he didnt, cuba would probably be enjoying the "freedoms" and economic inequalities of most other caribbean islands, which is not a good look.
anyway, doesnt america still beat cuba out when it comes to incarcerated citizens per capita? why is that? we have no political prisoners? or are you counting guantanamo as part of cuba?
familiar with this lady's story?
and for real, dont come at me or aaron on some condescending "lack of basic morality" shit. keep getting personal and i will come at your neck.
I didn't mean to criticise you personally . My comment about morality was meant only as an observation about the willingness of so many to rationalise, disregard, or be willfully blind to what are immoral acts. I know discussion of morality makes people uncomfortable, but I'm only talking about the moral precepts that form the core of our nations, i.e. (most of the time) you shouldn't murder, people are entitled to certain basic rights, etc.
Additionally, now that I understand what you meant by self-determination, on the whole, I agree with you. That said, I've learnt that you could venture the argument that the revolution has worked to steadily decrease Cuba's cultural self-determination in the past decade.
Guess that global warming is particularly bad today.
We'll have to agree to disagree as I find nothing to celebrate in Fidel or his regime.....and I'm amazed that anyone can.
once again you dont celebrate free health care? you dont celebrate free access to top notch education? you dont celebrate a literacy rate comparable to first world countries? you dont celebrate attacks on segregation and racism and public pronouncements of pride in "afro cuban" roots? you dont celebrate "exporting" the expertise of doctors throughout the world? you dont celebrate urban agriculture projects that are curently managing to accounting for up to 50% of the needs of urban populations' food supply? you dont celebrate attempts to gain independence from the agricultural dependence on oil by recently converting up to 75% of its farmland to small organic models?
damn, dog. i dream about the day when my country will have some of those things. DONT GET ME WRONG...we have many things that cubans can only dream of. i dream about a day when cubans will have more basic freedoms.
now please explain to me why you are so amazed that people celebrate the above list of achievements? (and for the tenth time: i still am very critical of castro and his administration)
One more thing. It's easy to talk about Cuba succesfully battling the America's economic and cultural imperialism. However, that talk should include the detail about 8 billion a year from the Soviets.
Also, many people in Cuba attributed current economic woes governmental mismanagement instead of the embargo. I don't know enough about the subject to know how true this is, but it doesn't make much to see just how inept cuba's government has been in specific instances, certain cultural policies being an example.
Guess that global warming is particularly bad today.
We'll have to agree to disagree as I find nothing to celebrate in Fidel or his regime.....and I'm amazed that anyone can.
once again you dont celebrate free health care? you dont celebrate free access to top notch education? you dont celebrate a literacy rate comparable to first world countries? you dont celebrate attacks on segregation and racism and public pronouncements of pride in "afro cuban" roots? you dont celebrate "exporting" the expertise of doctors throughout the world? you dont celebrate urban agriculture projects that are curently managing to accounting for up to 50% of the needs of urban populations' food supply? you dont celebrate attempts to gain independence from the agricultural dependence on oil by recently converting up to 75% of its farmland to small organic models?
damn, dog. i dream about the day when my country will have some of those things. DONT GET ME WRONG...we have many things that cubans can only dream of. i dream about a day when cubans will have more basic freedoms.
now please explain to me why you are so amazed that people celebrate the above list of achievements? (and for the tenth time: i still am very critical of castro and his administration)
Are you suggesting that the health care in Cuba is superior to that provided here in the U.S. to illegal aliens??
That our Public Hospitals and Emergency Rooms that CAN NOT turn away ANY patient by law, pale in comparison to Cuba's??
Did you not read about the gentleman who came here from Cuba and cried when he saw all the medicine available??
Let's put your celebration into perspective....
I know another place that provides... FREE Health Care & Dental Three FREE meals a day. FREE Cable TV Access to FREE High School & College Educations
It's the U.S. Prison System.....let's have a Celebration!!!
My comment about morality was meant only as an observation about the willingness of so many to rationalise, disregard, or be willfully blind to what are immoral acts. I know discussion of morality makes people uncomfortable, but I'm only talking about the moral precepts that form the core of our nations, i.e. (most of the time) you shouldn't murder, people are entitled to certain basic rights, etc
agreed. but many rationalize, disregard and are blind to immoral acts that the u.s. perpetuates. and i dont know of many countries that don't have their ugly instances and stories. depicting castro as a blood thirsty Baby Doc/Idi Amin madman is ridiculous. the u.s. has funded his assassination and overthrow for decades. if american presidents had to deal with that pressure, you dont think the FBI would step up surveillance, illegal detentions and police pressure up considerably? havent we?
That said, I've learnt that you could venture the argument that the revolution has worked to steadily decrease Cuba's cultural self-determination in the past decade.
of course. they have been stuck betwen a rock and a hard place for a long time
One more thing. It's easy to talk about Cuba succesfully battling the America's economic and cultural imperialism. However, that talk should include the detail about 8 billion a year from the Soviets.
Also, many people in Cuba attributed current economic woes governmental mismanagement instead of the embargo. I don't know enough about the subject to know how true this is, but it doesn't make much to see just how inept cuba's government has been in specific instances, certain cultural policies being an example.
didnt i already mention this several times in this thread??? castro and company have made many mistakes. still, don't discount the serious serious effects of the u.s. embargo
Are you suggesting that the health care in Cuba is superior to that provided here in the U.S. to illegal aliens??
That our Public Hospitals and Emergency Rooms that CAN NOT turn away ANY patient by law, pale in comparison to Cuba's??
Did you not read about the gentleman who came here from Cuba and cried when he saw all the medicine available??
LOL!! you havent heard of the u.s. embargo? dont you think that might have an affect on cuba's lack of medical supplies? i really dont want to go off on a tangent about america's health care system.
Let's put your celebration into perspective....
I know another place that provides... FREE Health Care & Dental Three FREE meals a day. FREE Cable TV Access to FREE High School & College Educations
It's the U.S. Prison System.....let's have a Celebration!!!
maybe thats why we have such high rates of incarceration and why recidivism is so high. american prisons, turning out hundreds of thousands of PhDs every year! PELL grants got cut back drastically a long time ago, homie.
LOL!! you havent heard of the u.s. embargo? dont you think that might have an affect on cuba's lack of medical supplies? i really dont want to go off on a tangent about america's health care system.
LOL!! you havent heard of socialism? the political system which has greatly impoverished every nation in which its ever been established? the embargo isnt an important economic factor for the simple reason that there isnt much americans would want to buy from cuba and there isnt much cuba can afford to buy from americans. Trade would be virtually nil even without the embargo, it exists as a political gesture and nothing more.
Castro has executed 1000's of people for 'political crimes' and people nonchalantly glance over this because he has provided 'free' healthcare and a 'great' education system. Though to call the education system great seems dubious since there would be no tangible benefit of a great education for a cuban even if the unveryfied statistics given by the cuban government are actually accurate and to call the healthcare free seems abominable considering the price cubans have paid for it is their liberty and their livelyhoods.
agreed. but many rationalize, disregard and are blind to immoral acts that the u.s. perpetuates. and i dont know of many countries that don't have their ugly instances and stories. depicting castro as a blood thirsty Baby Doc/Idi Amin madman is ridiculous. the u.s. has funded his assassination and overthrow for decades. if american presidents had to deal with that pressure, you dont think the FBI would step up surveillance, illegal detentions and police pressure up considerably? havent we?
That said, I've learnt that you could venture the argument that the revolution has worked to steadily decrease Cuba's cultural self-determination in the past decade.
of course. they have been stuck betwen a rock and a hard place for a long time
I don't know that it's fair to say that, but for American's meddling, Cubans would have the basic freedoms we expect. JFK was assasinated and I think most every President before and after carried on with their business with the knowledge that they were targets of internal and external forces. Hell, our Prime Minister was allegedly targeted for decapitation. Nonetheless, Americans and Candians still enjoy at least a semblence of the rights enshrined in their consitution (we certainly in do Canada). You can even take your government to court if you believe there's a cause of action. Besides, as you no doubt know, the Cubans were remarkably adept at parrying the Americans attacks. That's not necessarily saying much, at least in terms of America's attempts to assasinate Castro, since they were often pretty laughable (botulism infected cigars?). Anyway, my point is merely that I'm not comfortable apologising for Castro's abuses by attributing them to the fight against American aggression .
As for the cultural issue, I was saying that there's a strong argument that the revolution is doing nothing good for Cuban culture, at least in terms of music. It has nothing to do with the embargo or American hostility, but with crackpot domestic policies.
LOL!! you havent heard of socialism? the political system which has greatly impoverished every nation in which its ever been established? the embargo isnt an important economic factor for the simple reason that there isnt much americans would want to buy from cuba and there isnt much cuba can afford to buy from americans. Trade would be virtually nil even without the embargo, it exists as a political gesture and nothing more.
This is largely my sense of things, too. But I do know the state record label does a tonne of business with Americans, particularly in Miami, so there are clearly ways of circumventing the embargo.
Comments
danno, sorry for the lack of clarity. i meant for the island as a whole, not individuals on it, who of course have tragically limited rights. the island's power structure (whatever you think of them) has been able to set its own course ,much more independently (although not divorced from its wider political context) since the batista regime.
and i definitely hold elected leaders like salvador allende in a higher regard than the unelected castro,but allende didnt last too long (thanks in large part to CIA meddling and funding of his assassination). playing "what if" is just a game, but do you think american political interests could have been kept out of cuba for so long (and the notable public gains of the revolution would have been maintained) had castro not stubbornly stayed in power? i think the tragedy of the revolution is in fact that he decided to impose his own martial law on the island...but if he didnt, cuba would probably be enjoying the "freedoms" and economic inequalities of most other caribbean islands, which is not a good look.
anyway, doesnt america still beat cuba out when it comes to incarcerated citizens per capita? why is that? we have no political prisoners? or are you counting guantanamo as part of cuba?
familiar with this lady's story?
and for real, dont come at me or aaron on some condescending "lack of basic morality" shit. keep getting personal and i will come at your neck.
the moral thing to do!!!
Most of the fans of Castro I've spoken to are fans simply because he stood up to what they perceive is an evil imperialistic American government.
The pro-Castro sentiment in the U.S. is a fairly recent phenomena, put forth by those who don't necessarily hate America, but hate it's current leadership. Although I've yet to meet anyone who would prefer to live in Castro's Cuba vs. GW's America. I do know of one Ex-Black Panther who has made that choice so it's available to anyone who does indeed feel that way.
Unfortunately Castro doesn't have many fans amongst former Cuban residents nor current ones(although the latter are less likely to say so at the risk of being punished).
"fans"???? thanks for your anecdote, but dont trivialize how i am looking at castro. dont know if you read the other posts, but castro's revolution did take a third world, american government and mafia run state of coruption, racism and inequality and enhanced the living conditions of the majority of its citizens. Illiteracy was mashed out, everyone was given access to health care and quality education. while hardly eradicated, racism was addressed at all societal levels (keep in mind that this is the early 60s). so its not just a fruity, liberal "yay, he stood up to the imperialists!" sentiment. also, castro actively pursued strong relations with the u.s. after he took power. when u.s companies stopped getting the red carpet to completely exploit cuba's resources, americans forced castro to get aid from the soviets, and the cold war die was cast.
jesus christ rock, where the fuck have you been???? venceremos brigades and cuban sympathizers have been constant since the revolution. i am sure that there was a nadir of support during the missile crisis, but castro has always had his supporters among black americans, american leftists-liberals, academics, students, poor. dude has always been reeeeealllly good at playing the media to his side too.
if the panther youre talking about is assata shakur, she didnt really "make the choice" to go into exile. she was busted out of prison and granted asylum in cuba and wishes she could come back to her family and country of birth.
do you think castro would still be in power if the united states hadnt imposed a full trade embargo?
once again, stop simplifying. cubans who i have spoken to usually dont say "i am a fan" or "no, i am not a fan". but they generally have much more intelligent stances to take on the matter. as i wrote earlier in the thread, the most common responses i have heard from cubans regarding castro are that he has been in power far too long and that he has made many mistakes, although he has the best interests of cubans in mind. but then again, i dont live in miami and dont solicit their opinions.
Please to tell this to my grandfather (who I never got to meet) who died broke and in a metal institution in Havana in 86 because he was labeled a ???dissident???.
Thanks
The Black Panther I was referring to, hijacked a plane to Cuba(I linked a story about him earlier in the thread).
I have friends here in Texas who came to America as small children with their parents when Castro took power. The stories they tell about abuse, theft and destruction of personal property and treatment of those relatives left behind would make anyone ashamed to "support Castro".
Condolences....
This is the type of Government that motivated 100,000's of people to risk their lives and use what ever floatation device available to escape....sounds peachy.
with all due respect and condolences,
probably some sons,fathers and uncles in that crowd:
sadly, its peachy all around:
america hasnt been responsible for people leaving their homes/homelands?
i was chilling with some nice salvadorians last week who had to leave their country years ago to escape u.s. run death squads. not peachy at all.
Should we talk about Guantanamo? Abu Ghraib? COINTELPRO? Abner Louima? tuskeegee syphilis experiments? napalm in vietnam? fulgencio batista's prison and corruption? somosa and the contras? my country is far from innocent and has perpetuated any atrocity that the castro regime has.
u.s.a is indeed a land of opportunity and freedoms. does this give it a pass to incarcerate, assassinate, bomb, economically exploit, limit the freedoms of others? Should i not say anything about our skeletons in the closet simply because i grew up in a privileged white, middle class family? no, i think i will in fact hold my country to a higher standard than all others, because i hold it in such high esteem.
our country was founded with roots of slavery and genocide. we have people trapped in abject poverty that eclipses that of any cuban. our society is still struggling to emerge from under a legacy of prejudice and segregation. Should i not say a peep about that and be thankful that i have some guaranteed freedoms? (which are especially guaranteed to white males like myself)
I will keep saying that the tragedy of the cuban revolution is castro's unwillingness to give up power and the limitations that have been imposed on cubans' basic rights. but just like i have much to be proud and grateful for in america, i can look with thankfulness at many results of the cuban revolution and fidel castro's unwillingness to cave in to american hegemony in caribbean/central/latin america.
Do we have to get in to our history supporting banana republics that DID NOT have kind intentions for the majoity of their people?????? governments that hoarded all resources for the ultra rich and unleashed u.s. armed death squads on peasants to perpetuate their sick, gaudy, corrupt, morally bankrupt fantasy lives???? let me know if we want to get into all that. how lavish is castro living??? do you see him stockpiling hundreds of millions of dollars in his family's hands? dude has been in an economic war with the greatest super power in world history for fifty years and yall are surprised there has been jailing of dissidents???????? and dont get me wrong, i am not excusing castro's repressions. it is a true human and historical tragedy. just like all the good america has done for the world has been tarnished by our sad sad past and present abuses.
i'll check back in to the conversation tonight, but right now i am going to go out and enjoy some of the global warming.
be well, t
Wow, what a news flash.....
We all know who Abner Louima is because he's the EXCEPTION of how people are treated in this country, not the rule.
You can question and disagree with our foriegn policies, whine about Gitmo and other war-related "atrocities", and even point out injustice within our borders, but the bottom line is there is NO hope in Castro's Cuba and there is LOT's of hope in America.
Just ask the 14 million people who have come here in the last 5 years to help share your guilt and shame.
You respect Castro because America is not without disgressions??
That's pretty illogical from where I sit and is the same logic that has some Americans defending Hezbollah's actions.
You wanna call America and it's Government vs. Castro's Cuba the better of two evils, fine.
I'll take "better" everytime if I can't have "perfect", and unless there's some Utopia I haven't been told about, perfect don't exist.
I'll admit that maybe I can't have the same insight that you have since I didn't grow up "priviledged".
Could u move your family there? Or just yourself? Just wondering.
i disagree with many of your statements that you believe are facts.
and if i valued your opinion more, i would take offense at how you talk about my "guilt shame and whining". your reading interpretation skills are obviously a little rusty, so i wont be frustrated by your illogical inferences.
and you can have any insight you want and any opinion you want, whatever your personal background might be. and i am sure that despite afirmative action, the welfare state and other communist plots meant to rob you of your tax dollars, you most likely have enjoyed some of the privileges i have enjoyed while being white and male in this country.
i am not trying to compare, rank, or root for cuba or america. like with most things, i celebrate certain aspects of each country and deplore others. sorry if i cant bring myself to compartmentalize into "good" and "bad" like you manage to do.
respect and hope,
t
are you talking about would i move my family to cuba?
home is very important to me (that would be philly), so i'd be hesitant to move anywhere. but if i had to choose to live an average life in a third world country ,cuba would be considered.
but dont take that answer out of context. my fam grew up in south america and my parents are very leftist leaning. i get a sense of satisfaction working for the common good, gardening, modest lifestyles. my mother is worried about her health and my dad loves dancing. it would be the worst match.
why do you ask? am i coming off like i hate america? or am comparing the two?
We'll have to agree to disagree as I find nothing to celebrate in Fidel or his regime.....and I'm amazed that anyone can.
I didn't mean to criticise you personally . My comment about morality was meant only as an observation about the willingness of so many to rationalise, disregard, or be willfully blind to what are immoral acts. I know discussion of morality makes people uncomfortable, but I'm only talking about the moral precepts that form the core of our nations, i.e. (most of the time) you shouldn't murder, people are entitled to certain basic rights, etc.
Additionally, now that I understand what you meant by self-determination, on the whole, I agree with you. That said, I've learnt that you could venture the argument that the revolution has worked to steadily decrease Cuba's cultural self-determination in the past decade.
once again
you dont celebrate free health care?
you dont celebrate free access to top notch education?
you dont celebrate a literacy rate comparable to first world countries?
you dont celebrate attacks on segregation and racism and public pronouncements of pride in "afro cuban" roots?
you dont celebrate "exporting" the expertise of doctors throughout the world?
you dont celebrate urban agriculture projects that are curently managing to accounting for up to 50% of the needs of urban populations' food supply?
you dont celebrate attempts to gain independence from the agricultural dependence on oil by recently converting up to 75% of its farmland to small organic models?
damn, dog. i dream about the day when my country will have some of those things. DONT GET ME WRONG...we have many things that cubans can only dream of. i dream about a day when cubans will have more basic freedoms.
now please explain to me why you are so amazed that people celebrate the above list of achievements? (and for the tenth time: i still am very critical of castro and his administration)
Also, many people in Cuba attributed current economic woes governmental mismanagement instead of the embargo. I don't know enough about the subject to know how true this is, but it doesn't make much to see just how inept cuba's government has been in specific instances, certain cultural policies being an example.
Are you suggesting that the health care in Cuba is superior to that provided here in the U.S. to illegal aliens??
That our Public Hospitals and Emergency Rooms that CAN NOT turn away ANY patient by law, pale in comparison to Cuba's??
Did you not read about the gentleman who came here from Cuba and cried when he saw all the medicine available??
Let's put your celebration into perspective....
I know another place that provides...
FREE Health Care & Dental
Three FREE meals a day.
FREE Cable TV
Access to FREE High School & College Educations
It's the U.S. Prison System.....let's have a Celebration!!!
of course. they have been stuck betwen a rock and a hard place for a long time
maybe thats why we have such high rates of incarceration and why recidivism is so high. american prisons, turning out hundreds of thousands of PhDs every year!
PELL grants got cut back drastically a long time ago, homie.
And as far as the prison system goes you nailed it on the head....getting all that stuff for free sucks if you don't have your freedom.
I'm done.
one love,t
not old school ,
like the love shown for
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
Dude's sold more T-Shirts than Phil Collins!!!
Wish more cared about this record shit
LOL!! you havent heard of socialism? the political system which has greatly impoverished every nation in which its ever been established? the embargo isnt an important economic factor for the simple reason that there isnt much americans would want to buy from cuba and there isnt much cuba can afford to buy from americans. Trade would be virtually nil even without the embargo, it exists as a political gesture and nothing more.
Castro has executed 1000's of people for 'political crimes' and people nonchalantly glance over this because he has provided 'free' healthcare and a 'great' education system. Though to call the education system great seems dubious since there would be no tangible benefit of a great education for a cuban even if the unveryfied statistics given by the cuban government are actually accurate and to call the healthcare free seems abominable considering the price cubans have paid for it is their liberty and their livelyhoods.
I don't know that it's fair to say that, but for American's meddling, Cubans would have the basic freedoms we expect. JFK was assasinated and I think most every President before and after carried on with their business with the knowledge that they were targets of internal and external forces. Hell, our Prime Minister was allegedly targeted for decapitation. Nonetheless, Americans and Candians still enjoy at least a semblence of the rights enshrined in their consitution (we certainly in do Canada). You can even take your government to court if you believe there's a cause of action. Besides, as you no doubt know, the Cubans were remarkably adept at parrying the Americans attacks. That's not necessarily saying much, at least in terms of America's attempts to assasinate Castro, since they were often pretty laughable (botulism infected cigars?). Anyway, my point is merely that I'm not comfortable apologising for Castro's abuses by attributing them to the fight against American aggression .
As for the cultural issue, I was saying that there's a strong argument that the revolution is doing nothing good for Cuban culture, at least in terms of music. It has nothing to do with the embargo or American hostility, but with crackpot domestic policies.
This is largely my sense of things, too. But I do know the state record label does a tonne of business with Americans, particularly in Miami, so there are clearly ways of circumventing the embargo.
yo tony,
maters & pears are still a few weeks away
but
lancaster is next week !
coming to austin ?
we can have a real life rap session in the hear & now with rock
aleit can wear his fidel get up
&
a good time will be had by all !
fmu ?
philly revival nite show ?
plaese to come out & play...........