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  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    This I am positive about however, the U.S. takes IN far more money from foreign countries to support the government's deficit. Most of our debt is subsidized by foreign countries, not U.S. citizens or the government.

    An enormous concern, but the issue I brought up and this should be considered (IMO) independent of each other.

    If the U.S. wants to end illegal immigration they already have the laws to do it. Go after the companies that employ them and they will cut down on illegal immigration.

    Yes, they should get off their asses and do so.[/b]

    Whether their English writing skills progress will depend upon when they started going to school in the U.S. The later they started, the less they will learn of English.
    The majority of source errors for their essays involve only being able to communicate in "vocal" Spanish, with transcription errors, pronunciation errors, etc affecting the quality and content of the essays. This would be easily fixed if someone were teaching them something, be it forcing them to communicate in English, or writing English properly. Parents need to be more pro-active in Spanish speaking communities with their children's education, based on what I've read.[/b]

  • BigSpliffBigSpliff 3,266 Posts

    And by the way, Canadians were one of the top 5 illegal immigrant groups to the U.S. in the 1990s. Not sure if that's changed one way or the other.

    Williamsburg is full of this invisible menace! There's hardly an alt-techno-rock band in the area without at least 2 Canadian members. And when not touring upstate colleges they are taking coffeehouse barrista jobs away from college-bound midwesterners on account of them having cooler haircuts and coming off as less naive. Where's the outrage?!

    As always Motown, your analysis is thorough.

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts
    But what goal has been met? The goal that latinos can gather in great numbers? How is that a goal?

    This issue is election year 'divide and conquer' tactics, and it's WAY bigger stakes that the tired 'gay marriage' issue. The only thing this accomplishes is pitting people against one another and making rational folks act out of fear on both sides. If I hear one more pundit refer to someone as 'anti-immigration' because they voice an opinion that it might be wise to simply enforce EXISTING laws as opposed to creating new ones that felonize people, well, I might just flip my wig. It's getting out of hand and no one even knows what the fight is about.

    If I had a dollar for each person protesting who couldn't articulate(in whatever their language may be) exactly WHY they were there, I would be rich.

    goal #1 was to bring attention to HR4437 a bit of legislature that was to go before the senate a few weeks ago. it would have turned millions into felons. it not only impacted illegal aliens, but it also impacted social workers, care givers, health workers, teachers, clergy, etc. and the bill was specifically directed at central american illegal immigration. hence the "latinos gathering in great numbers" as a goal. to not only bring this disputed bill to the mainstream light, but to also rally the people that it was projected to impact the most.

    what i dont get is why youre asking about this here? i mean its been in the newspapers for the past months. and if you reread your own post, you pretty much answer your own question.

    simply enforce EXISTING laws as opposed to creating new ones that felonize people

    so what are you really upset about? that you have to pick a side? are you anti-this or pro-that? i mean, you live in DC, which im gonna assume isnt daly city but is in fact our capitol. and youre not used to this type of politicking? about "making rational folks act out of fear on both sides"? i mean, its practically the basis of modern bipartisan democracy.

    Sorry if I come off as angry, and yeah, I am aware of the scizo bills in the House AND the Senate, one would make being an illegal a felony and one wants to basically grant the entire population of Central America US citizenship. That's why I am confused as to people's goals, because as usual with almost any protest these days, there is a lot of co-option going on, andseemingly little focus beyond the activism. Well intentioned progressives and unions are backing amnesty like it actually fixes something(which it doesn't) and knuckleheaded righties actually believe that the same government that benefits from disposable labor and open borders will actually pass a COMPLETELY un-needed law that would round folks up and ship them out. Please. All these folks are deluded, and the only thing we can count on is confusing rhetoric until the mid-term elections. Then all the immigrant-supporting politicos will fade back into the woodwork with all the immigrant-bashing politicos.

    Maybe I am more angry that this issue has crystalised my cynicism which has been growing steady since Nov. 2000

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    This I am positive about however, the U.S. takes IN far more money from foreign countries to support the government's deficit. Most of our debt is subsidized by foreign countries, not U.S. citizens or the government.

    An enormous concern, but the issue I brought up and this should be considered (IMO) independent of each other.

    If the U.S. wants to end illegal immigration they already have the laws to do it. Go after the companies that employ them and they will cut down on illegal immigration.

    Yes, they should get off their asses and do so.[/b]

    Whether their English writing skills progress will depend upon when they started going to school in the U.S. The later they started, the less they will learn of English.

    The majority of source errors for their essays involve only being able to communicate in "vocal" Spanish, with transcription errors, pronunciation errors, etc affecting the quality and content of the essays. This would be easily fixed if someone were teaching them something, be it forcing them to communicate in English, or writing English properly. Parents need to be more pro-active in Spanish speaking communities with their children's education, based on what I've read.[/b]
    My point on the 1st is that many immigrants will send money home, but overall immigrants add more to the U.S. economy then they take away. If they're living in the U.S. they're spending all kinds of $$$ here as well like paying rent, gas, food, etc., not to mention making profits for some company.

    We pretty much agree on the 2nd point.

    On the 3rd, I think we would probably agree that they're probably in inner city or rural schools where they are getting a not so good education, even if they were U.S. citizens and offsprings of people who came here in the 1880s. Also, the poorer a famiy is, the less active they will be involved in their children's schooling. The poorer the family the less literate, the more likely to drop out of school, the less likely to go to college, etc. etc. These are points that apply to all Americans, not just immigrants.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts


    And by the way, Canadians were one of the top 5 illegal immigrant groups to the U.S. in the 1990s. Not sure if that's changed one way or the other.

    This is probably pretty much still true. Once we get in, it's almost impossible to get rid of us. We started with comedians. Be prepared...

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts


    And by the way, Canadians were one of the top 5 illegal immigrant groups to the U.S. in the 1990s. Not sure if that's changed one way or the other.

    This is probably pretty much still true. Once we get in, it's almost impossible to get rid of us. We started with comedians. Be prepared...

    I'm going to start my own Minuteman group, but aimed northward. We're going to check all lumberjacks and hockey players for their papers, and randomy throw in the term, "Eh" to see if they respond in kind.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts


    And by the way, Canadians were one of the top 5 illegal immigrant groups to the U.S. in the 1990s. Not sure if that's changed one way or the other.

    This is probably pretty much still true. Once we get in, it's almost impossible to get rid of us. We started with comedians. Be prepared...

    I'm going to start my own Minuteman group, but aimed northward. We're going to check all lumberjacks and hockey players for their papers, and randomy throw in the term, "Eh" to see if they respond in kind.

    Yeah, you can still catch us with "Eh", but we've been working on "aboot" for years now and have that one down pat.

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts


    And by the way, Canadians were one of the top 5 illegal immigrant groups to the U.S. in the 1990s. Not sure if that's changed one way or the other.

    This is probably pretty much still true. Once we get in, it's almost impossible to get rid of us. We started with comedians. Be prepared...

    I'm going to start my own Minuteman group, but aimed northward. We're going to check all lumberjacks and hockey players for their papers, and randomy throw in the term, "Eh" to see if they respond in kind.

    Yeah, you can still catch us with "Eh", but we've been working on "aboot" for years now and have that one down pat.

    We'll still find them, you?!?! I'll have my group watch old episodes of SCTV to find out your strange form of comedy that you referred to. All the better to help infiltrate your illegal communities here in the U.S. and then apprehend all the suspects.

  • sergserg 682 Posts


    Do you believe, as I do, that the U.S. Gov't is looking at these illegal aliens and their unrefundable tax/SS contributions as a band-aid solution to bail out a long suffering and soon to be extinct Social Security system.

    Sort of like stealing from Pedro to pay Paul??

    This actually gets brought up every now and then in CA. We're going to have the majority white baby boomers retiring soon and a growing Latino population in CA, which is already 1/3 of the total state population, paying for them in SS taxes. Most immigrants pay SS taxes out of their paychecks, but I don't think it'll fix the SS problem. There are simply going to be too many baby boomers retiring for the system to pay for itself anymore. Not to mention that Congress has been routinely taking out of the SS fund to pay for other government spending since at least the 1980s.

    I'm thinking the government is playing up the issue so that they can find a happy medium that translates into a shitload of cash. americans aren't going to go for full amnesty but they will go for fines. Shit if they pull the same shit as in 87 like only allow those that have been here for at least 5 or more years but up the fines that's a shitload of money. You figure out of the 11 million estimated illegals lets just say only 3 million qualify for residency, charge those three million one thousand in fines and application fees and you just raised 3 billion dollars without have to do shit but give out green cards. People haven't even been given citizenship, and you can charge more for that too. If a guest worker permit goes through then that's even more money. Shit if they come up with a plan to offer illegals a probation period (with mad fines of course) to pay their way up to residency eligibility then they might be able to pay for this fucking war that bush fucked up.

    as for the thousand dollars for residency, that may be higher but it sure as fuck won't be less. Especially considering that two weeks ago I was informed that's what I have to pay to get permenant residency and INS has had my fucking application for almost twenty goddamn years.

    the us isn't the only one hoping to bank off these immigrants. a shitload of companies are looking to cash in on all that money that immigrants don't put into banks. Business Week had a cutesy article on the matter last summer http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_29/b3943001_mz001.htm

  • mylatencymylatency 10,475 Posts

    Yup, a local post office worker just told me today that they process upwards of $8,000 worth of money orders a day at their single storefront towards the 1st of every month.

    Western Union (FDC) = BUY

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts
    Does anyone else feel that there should have been maybe some kinda of huge protest in Mexico City? Like to send a message that Mexicans aren't happy with the way their government is running the country. It's just a thought that maybe thats where most of this rallying should be directed.

  • funky16cornersfunky16corners 7,175 Posts


    And by the way, Canadians were one of the top 5 illegal immigrant groups to the U.S. in the 1990s. Not sure if that's changed one way or the other.

    This is probably pretty much still true. Once we get in, it's almost impossible to get rid of us. We started with comedians. Be prepared...

    I'm going to start my own Minuteman group, but aimed northward. We're going to check all lumberjacks and hockey players for their papers, and randomy throw in the term, "Eh" to see if they respond in kind.


    Offer them real[/b] bacon and see how they respond...

  • sergserg 682 Posts

    Yup, a local post office worker just told me today that they process upwards of $8,000 worth of money orders a day at their single storefront towards the 1st of every month.

    Western Union (FDC) = BUY

    anyone who thinks that money needs to be taxed needs to learn that what they think doesn't fucking matter. Western Union taking a loss is what makes a difference in this country and when they make 1.1 billion a year off money transfers they sure as fuck aren't going to let some crybaby conservatives have an impact.

    for those that think immigrants send out more than they put in, check it. immigrants actually pump in 7 Billion a year into social security. That doesn't even count what they put into this economy.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts

    Yup, a local post office worker just told me today that they process upwards of $8,000 worth of money orders a day at their single storefront towards the 1st of every month.

    Western Union (FDC) = BUY

    anyone who thinks that money needs to be taxed needs to learn that what they think doesn't fucking matter. Western Union taking a loss is what makes a difference in this country and when they make 1.1 billion a year off money transfers they sure as fuck aren't going to let some crybaby conservatives have an impact.

    for those that think immigrants send out more than they put in, check it. immigrants actually pump in 7 Billion a year into social security. That doesn't even count what they put into this economy.

    I've heard that figure a few times. But what are the cost to taxpayers in terms of social services, medical care, emergency room care, safety net costs come to around? I've heard that number to be anywhere around 40 to 50 billion dollars.

    And for a second, lets just say hypothetically speaking amnesty was the final outcome of some sorts (Be it full or maybe even fines to be paid). Does anyone not believe that you will end up with millions upon millions more immigrants from all around the world heading towards the United States with a message like that?

  • BigSpliffBigSpliff 3,266 Posts
    Does anyone else feel that there should have been maybe some kinda of huge protest in Mexico City? Like to send a message that Mexicans aren't happy with the way their government is running the country. It's just a thought that maybe thats where most of this rallying should be directed.

    No.

    DOR, sometimes your need to plug the thoughts that waft out of your brain cavity. Instead of posing everything as a rhetorical question, why don't you do some studying or apply for that passport?

    1. Act Now to Stop War and End Racism. This is a global issue, one facet of which impacts your life, so that's all you can grasp.

    2. "Mexicans" means Mexican, El Salvadorean, Honduran, Guatemalan, Ecuadorean, Paraguayan, Bosnian, Liberian, Romanian, Filipino, Korean, Laosian, Tamil, and on and on. Realise what that means when your army is stationed in 160+ countries around the planet

    3. The people you talk about are the next generation of "Only in America". This is undeniable.

  • funky16cornersfunky16corners 7,175 Posts
    2. "Mexicans" means Mexican, El Salvadorean, Honduran, Guatemalan, Ecuadorean, Paraguayan, Bosnian, Liberian, Romanian, Filipino, Korean, Laosian, Tamil, and on and on. Realise what that means when your army is stationed in 160+ countries around the planet

    Interesting point there sir.

    Plaese to add Irish*, Greek, residents of various and sundry African nations, Indian, Pakistani etc etc on and on ad infinitum.


    *Esp. in NYC where there are tons of Irish illegals.

  • BigSpliffBigSpliff 3,266 Posts
    OK, Irish, Israeli, British, Australian, Canadian, etc. etc.

    But you know, they are the "good" sort of illegal immigrant

    PS: deport all the illegal Israelis from NYC and you would instantly put an end to all the street markets that generate massive, under-taxed, revenue and attract thousands of tourists.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts
    Does anyone else feel that there should have been maybe some kinda of huge protest in Mexico City? Like to send a message that Mexicans aren't happy with the way their government is running the country. It's just a thought that maybe thats where most of this rallying should be directed.

    No.

    DOR, sometimes your need to plug the thoughts that waft out of your brain cavity. Instead of posing everything as a rhetorical question, why don't you do some studying or apply for that passport?

    1. Act Now to Stop War and End Racism. This is a global issue, one facet of which impacts your life, so that's all you can grasp.

    2. "Mexicans" means Mexican, El Salvadorean, Honduran, Guatemalan, Ecuadorean, Paraguayan, Bosnian, Liberian, Romanian, Filipino, Korean, Laosian, Tamil, and on and on. Realise what that means when your army is stationed in 160+ countries around the planet

    3. The people you talk about are the next generation of "Only in America". This is undeniable.

    Ahh shit. I wrote a reply and got hit with the time expired deal. I don't feel like writing it out all again, so maybe point form will do.

    -I used the term "Mexican" because it's the major nation involved. I didn't want to post out 160+ countries (Mine included) with people trying to get into the United States.

    -Be serious for a moment and just admit there were a few groups involved yesterday with clear motives that weren't just "Stand up for immigrant rights" Thats why you had a few major American immigrant groups not wanting to be involved with the whole "May 1st" deal.

    - Dude, discussion & debate are a good thing. I actually enjoy reading other peoples opinions on the matter. You will never see me tell someone with an opinion other than my own to "stfu". But I get ur clear message. Noted...


    PS- Just for a argument sake. Are you saying that Illegal immigrant rights are a more important issue, than say, their rights in their own countries? Wouldn't it have made more sense to have say 5 million+ protest on Mexico City sending a clear message of what might be the real issue at hand. Than say, protest on May 1st, which might just cause blacklash with many Americans.

    PSS- I have done the whole living and working in the US for $5 bucks an hour.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts
    OK, Irish, Israeli, British, Australian, Canadian, etc. etc.

    But you know, they are the "good" sort of illegal immigrant

    PS: deport all the illegal Israelis from NYC and you would instantly put an end to all the street markets that generate massive, under-taxed, revenue and attract thousands of tourists.

    And this argument isn't Anti-Immigration rhetoric. What is the problem with having a legal process to gaining entrance or citizenship into the United States? I don't think it's such a big thing to wish for.

  • funky16cornersfunky16corners 7,175 Posts
    -Be serious for a moment and just admit there were a few groups involved yesterday with clear motives that weren't just "Stand up for immigrant rights" Thats why you had a few major American immigrant groups not wanting to be involved with the whole "May 1st" deal.

    Keep in mind that those groups show up at EVERY demonstration. I've been going to protests since they brought back draft registration and there's always a hard-left/anarchist element. That doesn't mean they're running the show.

  • grandpa_shiggrandpa_shig 5,799 Posts
    i think anarchism is more aligned with the hard right, not the hard left.

  • funky16cornersfunky16corners 7,175 Posts
    i think anarchism is more aligned with the hard right, not the hard left.

    I think all of the white-boy dreadlock/ski mask types might not agree with you.

  • DJ_EnkiDJ_Enki 6,473 Posts
    i think anarchism is more aligned with the hard right, not the hard left.

    Interesting. How so?

  • edpowersedpowers 4,437 Posts

  • i think anarchism is more aligned with the hard right, not the hard left.

    I dont think its really very important. The only thing that really distinguishes the hard left and the hard right is the targets of their hate.

  • edpowersedpowers 4,437 Posts
    The only thing that really distinguishes the hard left and the hard right is the targets of their hate.

    who does each target/hate ?

  • grandpa_shiggrandpa_shig 5,799 Posts
    i think anarchism is more aligned with the hard right, not the hard left.

    Interesting. How so?

    the left is associated with socialism. social programs and the like. the right is about little to no centralized government. anarchism, by definition means the absence of any political authority. you cant have socialism without some sort of central government. therefore anarchy has more to do with the right than the left. of course, that's neither here nor there in the grander scope of immigration rights.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts
    -Be serious for a moment and just admit there were a few groups involved yesterday with clear motives that weren't just "Stand up for immigrant rights" Thats why you had a few major American immigrant groups not wanting to be involved with the whole "May 1st" deal.

    Keep in mind that those groups show up at EVERY demonstration. I've been going to protests since they brought back draft registration and there's always a hard-left/anarchist element. That doesn't mean they're running the show.

    It's just a coincidence that this fell on May 1st? And that it had promotion by many major groups?

  • funky16cornersfunky16corners 7,175 Posts
    -Be serious for a moment and just admit there were a few groups involved yesterday with clear motives that weren't just "Stand up for immigrant rights" Thats why you had a few major American immigrant groups not wanting to be involved with the whole "May 1st" deal.

    Keep in mind that those groups show up at EVERY demonstration. I've been going to protests since they brought back draft registration and there's always a hard-left/anarchist element. That doesn't mean they're running the show.

    It's just a coincidence that this fell on May 1st?


    It's actually part of the grand conspiracy between everyone in the world. They didn't tell you?

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,903 Posts
    -Be serious for a moment and just admit there were a few groups involved yesterday with clear motives that weren't just "Stand up for immigrant rights" Thats why you had a few major American immigrant groups not wanting to be involved with the whole "May 1st" deal.

    Keep in mind that those groups show up at EVERY demonstration. I've been going to protests since they brought back draft registration and there's always a hard-left/anarchist element. That doesn't mean they're running the show.

    It's just a coincidence that this fell on May 1st?


    It's actually part of the grand conspiracy between everyone in the world. They didn't tell you?

    No, I got the memo. But mine came from Juan Jose Gutierrez. I'm still waiting on learning the secret handshake tho.
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