even if there's no significant changes in legislature, there is still a very huge outcome that resulted in the first march. and that is the fact that people that arent even considered citizens of "this great nation" can reappropriate american ethics and culture and utilize our neglected rights that most of us take for granted. i think the immigrant working class has gained a huge amount of respect and politica muscle. they were able to organize and mobilize underneath the very nose of america and nary a single "english speaker" was privy to it because it was delivered by the spanish speaking media.
Santa Fe has a huge Spanish-speaking population that are regularly offered classes in English. I work at a restaurant where people refuse to learn English. They're offered promotions based on their desire to learn English, so they can communicate with the waitstaff. This isn't small-mindedness--I see it every day.
I work part-time at an urban hospital in DC....in any given shift I see at least one family that has been here for years(based on how long there children have been in the system) that know zero english. These may be citizens for all I know, but regardless they don't learn english. The sadder part is that a large number of the younger immigrant parents seem to not be able to READ spanish (or english when they speak it) well or at all on top of poor language skills.
I'm curious to see what the outcome of this will be.
In terms of financial or economic impact, probably nothing. These sorts of protests or boycotts or whatever don't really work unless a significant percentage of the population all engages in it.
However, as far as speaking up, demonstrating that they're actual people and not just political footballs, all that kind of stuff, I think (and hope) that a real impact was made today.
**Edit** Yeah, the impact is basically what Shig said a couple posts up.
Santa Fe has a huge Spanish-speaking population that are regularly offered classes in English. I work at a restaurant where people refuse to learn English. They're offered promotions based on their desire to learn English, so they can communicate with the waitstaff. This isn't small-mindedness--I see it every day.
I work part-time at an urban hospital in DC....in any given shift I see at least one family that has been here for years(based on how long there children have been in the system) that know zero english. These may be citizens for all I know, but regardless they don't learn english. The sadder part is that a large number of the younger immigrant parents seem to not be able to READ spanish (or english when they speak it) well or at all on top of poor language skills.
Chr*s, you're a rational guy... do you think they're just lazy or "refusing" to learn?
Based on my experience, these are people that don't have time - or money - to take language classes.
I'm curious to see what the outcome of this will be.
In terms of financial or economic impact, probably nothing. These sorts of protests or boycotts or whatever don't really work unless a significant percentage of the population all engages in it.
However, as far as speaking up, demonstrating that they're actual people and not just political footballs, all that kind of stuff, I think (and hope) that a real impact was made today.
**Edit** Yeah, the impact is basically what Shig said a couple posts up.
to revisit the Angela Davis piece a while back, it takes more than a protest. I imagine a lot of work will keep being done in the same way this was organized...like Shig said...quietly...watching folks make hundreds of phone calls isn't that interesting!
The marches are right outside my office in Oakland--there's a shitload of people out there walking, carrying both American and Mexican flags. It's a pretty dope thing to see, and good for them for speaking up.
But what exactly are they speaking out ABOUT? This is the question that never gets answered! Is it just to show force? Why should that make anybody think twice or feel good about it? Is it to assert their rights? What rights are being infringed? Is it to show concern about lousy US Immigration policy(which is essentially no policy at all)? I think people get completely sidetracked by the circus of protest and have NO IDEA what this whole 'immigration issue' is even about. And how do you solve a problem that is 25 problems rolled into one? How is there a right side to this issue?
The marches are right outside my office in Oakland--there's a shitload of people out there walking, carrying both American and Mexican flags. It's a pretty dope thing to see, and good for them for speaking up.
But what exactly are they speaking out ABOUT? This is the question that never gets answered! Is it just to show force? Why should that make anybody think twice or feel good about it? Is it to assert their rights? What rights are being infringed? Is it to show concern about lousy US Immigration policy(which is essentially no policy at all)? I think people get completely sidetracked by the circus of protest and have NO IDEA what this whole 'immigration issue' is even about. And how do you solve a problem that is 25 problems rolled into one? How is there a right side to this issue?
i think the important thing here is that people are now talking about it. the issues, whether it be immigration policy, immigrant rights, mandating a language requirement, the economic impact. whatever you want to talk about concerning this issue is now being talked about. the goal, in my opinion, has probably been met. maybe nobody has a solution, but its important that you get folks talking before you start making any hasty decisions.
And how do you solve a problem that is 25 problems rolled into one? How is there a right side to this issue?
That's really a major point here because often, the loudest voices are the ones who want to treat this issue as being one simple thing with one simple solution. At the very least, the debate has to be broken into two main subjects:
1) What do we do about people trying to come into the U.S.? And
2) What do we do about the 10-12 million undocumented folks who are already here?
And then those can even be further subdivided. But they need to be recognized as needing solutions unto themselves instead of just searching for the Magic Answer to All Immigration Issues.
Santa Fe has a huge Spanish-speaking population that are regularly offered classes in English. I work at a restaurant where people refuse to learn English. They're offered promotions based on their desire to learn English, so they can communicate with the waitstaff. This isn't small-mindedness--I see it every day.
I work part-time at an urban hospital in DC....in any given shift I see at least one family that has been here for years(based on how long there children have been in the system) that know zero english. These may be citizens for all I know, but regardless they don't learn english. The sadder part is that a large number of the younger immigrant parents seem to not be able to READ spanish (or english when they speak it) well or at all on top of poor language skills.
Chr*s, you're a rational guy... do you think they're just lazy or "refusing" to learn?
Based on my experience, these are people that don't have time - or money - to take language classes.
The problem is one of isolation and of the system creating a semi-permanent lower class. The US government is not any more interested in helping poor latino kids (or their parents) learn than they want any other lower class kids educated well. This is why groups of (mostly undocumented)immigrants group together and then do not HAVE to speak anything besides Spanish. I never said they were lazy....I do often think some are definetly uninterested, based soley on their attitudes. Not most, most can communicate well or understand the fact that most of the staff doesn't speak english. It's just frustrating when you can see how their illegal status often leads to their being so limited in the US and knowing that it is still a far cry better for them here than in Mexico or Central America, well, it speaks volumes of their own countries failures where their people are concerned. And yes, I understand that the US has often had it's hand in interfereing with a lot of these nations, but how will any of these countries situations improve while the US takes on many of their poorest citizens?
I guess I look at these demonstrations and wonder why the US takes it on the chin when they are all looking at the US as the solution to all their problems, and why are they not protesting why their nations of origin don't do more to help them or provide better conditions and opportunities?
The marches are right outside my office in Oakland--there's a shitload of people out there walking, carrying both American and Mexican flags. It's a pretty dope thing to see, and good for them for speaking up.
But what exactly are they speaking out ABOUT? This is the question that never gets answered! Is it just to show force? Why should that make anybody think twice or feel good about it? Is it to assert their rights? What rights are being infringed? Is it to show concern about lousy US Immigration policy(which is essentially no policy at all)? I think people get completely sidetracked by the circus of protest and have NO IDEA what this whole 'immigration issue' is even about. And how do you solve a problem that is 25 problems rolled into one? How is there a right side to this issue?
i think the important thing here is that people are now talking about it. the issues, whether it be immigration policy, immigrant rights, mandating a language requirement, the economic impact. whatever you want to talk about concerning this issue is now being talked about. the goal, in my opinion, has probably been met. maybe nobody has a solution, but its important that you get folks talking before you start making any hasty decisions.
But what goal has been met? The goal that latinos can gather in great numbers? How is that a goal?
This issue is election year 'divide and conquer' tactics, and it's WAY bigger stakes that the tired 'gay marriage' issue. The only thing this accomplishes is pitting people against one another and making rational folks act out of fear on both sides. If I hear one more pundit refer to someone as 'anti-immigration' because they voice an opinion that it might be wise to simply enforce EXISTING laws as opposed to creating new ones that felonize people, well, I might just flip my wig. It's getting out of hand and no one even knows what the fight is about.
If I had a dollar for each person protesting who couldn't articulate(in whatever their language may be) exactly WHY they were there, I would be rich.
But what goal has been met? The goal that latinos can gather in great numbers? How is that a goal?
This issue is election year 'divide and conquer' tactics, and it's WAY bigger stakes that the tired 'gay marriage' issue. The only thing this accomplishes is pitting people against one another and making rational folks act out of fear on both sides. If I hear one more pundit refer to someone as 'anti-immigration' because they voice an opinion that it might be wise to simply enforce EXISTING laws as opposed to creating new ones that felonize people, well, I might just flip my wig. It's getting out of hand and no one even knows what the fight is about.
If I had a dollar for each person protesting who couldn't articulate(in whatever their language may be) exactly WHY they were there, I would be rich.
goal #1 was to bring attention to HR4437 a bit of legislature that was to go before the senate a few weeks ago. it would have turned millions into felons. it not only impacted illegal aliens, but it also impacted social workers, care givers, health workers, teachers, clergy, etc. and the bill was specifically directed at central american illegal immigration. hence the "latinos gathering in great numbers" as a goal. to not only bring this disputed bill to the mainstream light, but to also rally the people that it was projected to impact the most.
what i dont get is why youre asking about this here? i mean its been in the newspapers for the past months. and if you reread your own post, you pretty much answer your own question.
simply enforce EXISTING laws as opposed to creating new ones that felonize people
so what are you really upset about? that you have to pick a side? are you anti-this or pro-that? i mean, you live in DC, which im gonna assume isnt daly city but is in fact our capitol. and youre not used to this type of politicking? about "making rational folks act out of fear on both sides"? i mean, its practically the basis of modern bipartisan democracy.
Just wondering: do illegal immigrants in the us get paid a proper living wage or does the minimum wage not apply to them? In quebec, the minimum wage is 7.75 per hour. The illegals I know here get paid about 3-4 dollars per hour. Is it the same in the us?
Just wondering: do illegal immigrants in the us get paid a proper living wage or does the minimum wage not apply to them? In quebec, the minimum wage is 7.75 per hour. The illegals I know here get paid about 3-4 dollars per hour. Is it the same in the us?
Just wondering: do illegal immigrants in the us get paid a proper living wage or does the minimum wage not apply to them? In quebec, the minimum wage is 7.75 per hour. The illegals I know here get paid about 3-4 dollars per hour. Is it the same in the us?
dude, this is america.
does that answer your question?
In my company, our janitorial staff get paid a starting wage of 15.00 bucks an hour. People who have been with us for a few years make over 20.00 and I'm sure its hard to make ends meet in a family when getting paid 25.00 per hour, what with tax deductions and all. Sometimes, I have to call in contractors to handle big cleaning jobs & they usually have illegals working for them & pay them a quarter of what we pay our guys. Its crazy shit.
Just wondering: do illegal immigrants in the us get paid a proper living wage or does the minimum wage not apply to them? In quebec, the minimum wage is 7.75 per hour. The illegals I know here get paid about 3-4 dollars per hour. Is it the same in the us?
Please don't confuse a minimum wage with a living wage. The term living wage I'm sure actually came into use because the minimum wage falls well short of adequate for the vast majority of people who receive it.
having just finished my final 15 page paper on the effects of mexican immigration in the 20th century, may i add a few comments....US farmers/growers actively encouraged mexicans to immigrate in the early 20th century...this was the case actually until the depression when euro-americans were then willing to pick grapes for a dime a day...when WWII broke out, americans were sent away and again mexican labor(ie.cheap labor) was again sought...one might say that the history of the mexican in the US is the history of adaptation to the needs of the american labor market--whether in agriculture, mining, construction, etc...also, these businesses have a long track record of abuse, neglect, and outright obstinancy in rekoginizing the value of the immigrant's contribution to the US economy....thus, la lucha continua.....paz
First time I've ever held a U.S. flag. And it felt like it actually meant some of the things it's supposed to be about.
Happy Mayday indeed!
Started with a rally at Union Sq and then a march down Broadway to Federal Plaza / Court House. Apart from the eyes in the sky, police presence was minimal. Yes, cheap flags were sold, but of course you could bargain
PS: Union Square was named for all the Union HQs there, but now more famous as home of DSW and Whole Foods The Commish hanging out by the hot dogs... too easy
1) No matter what decade or where immigrants come from, the 1st generation of immigrants speak little to no English. They simply don't have to because most immigrants are living in immigrant communities where they can get most of their basic necessities like shopping from people of their own nationality that speak their language. They also usually work in jobs with many other immigrants, many of which are their same nationality. The change since the 1990s is that many more middle and upper class immigrants are coming to the U.S. especially in the high-tech and science fields and many of these first generationers are highly educated and speak English before they even come here. For example, Indians.
2) For immigrant kids, the earlier they begin learning English the better chance they have to become fluent. The later they start, the less they learn. Adults have a very hard time learning English. Not to mention that English is THE hardest language to learn in the world. The main reason being that there are very few rules of English that actually apply so most of the learning is just rote memorization.
3) In California they outlawed bi-lingual education. They just released an in-depth study of the effect of this policy change on California's children. The results: kids that are put in English only classes do not do any better. In some cases they do worse. Again, the deciding factor is when children START learning English.
4) The 2nd generation, if born in the U.S., is almost completely bi-lingual. They learn English in school and speak Spanish at home and with friends. By the 3rd generation, their lucky if they speak any of their home language at all.
On immigrants impact on U.S. economy
1) Overall, immigrants have a positive effect upon the U.S. in terms of work, helping production in the U.S. and American culture.
2) Where immigrants have a negative impact is upon the 5 states that receive the most immigrants: CA, TX, NY, IL, FL. In those states immigrants take more from social services, especially medical care, then they put in simply because they are a larger percentage of the population. In CA I think 1 in 4 in the state are immigrants.
3) Immigrants, whether legal or illegal, DO pay taxes. Unless they are paid under the table, which happens to be a very small percentage of the U.S. work force, they are given pay checks which the businesses deduct state, federal and social security taxes from. If they didn't they would be in big trouble with the IRS.
4) Immigrants have very little impact upon the pay of U.S. workers. A recent study found that illegal immigrants reduce pay for low wage workers in the U.S. by only 5%. The study didn't break it down by state, but I would assume, that illegal immigrants would have a larger impact upon those same 5 states that have the largest immigrant populations because their numbers are so much larger there.
On changing U.S. immigration law
1) If Bush got his bill passed for a temporary worker law and legalizing illegals it would increase immigration to the U.S. in the long run. I think the last time they had an amnesty law in the U.S. was about 1996 or so. What happened then was that many of these newly legalized immigrants wanted to do is bring in their other family members, which was now easier because they were citizens. In terms of temporary workers, it would simply legalize what is already existing in the U.S. There are a large number of legal and illegal immigrants that come to the U.S. and return home. The U.S. also has a history of immigrant worker laws such as the Bracero Program for Mexican workers from 1942-1965. That program brought in roughly 400,000 Mexican workers to CA alone each year during WWII. They worked for about 6 months and then went home. There are also current laws that fast track highly skilled immigrant workers to the U.S. and Congress has been pushing to increase the number of visas issued to these workers and make it easier for them to immigrate. 9/11 slowed that process down.
If the U.S. government truly wanted to crack down on illegal immigration all they have to do is enforce current laws and go after companies. Many illegals are concentrated in restaurants and food processing, farm work, construction, home care/baby sitting, and a few other fields. If they cracked down on all those companies they would greatly reduce the main draw of ALL immigrants to the U.S.: jobs. In 2005 I think the U.S. government only fined ONE company for using illegal immigrants.
Just wondering: do illegal immigrants in the us get paid a proper living wage or does the minimum wage not apply to them? In quebec, the minimum wage is 7.75 per hour. The illegals I know here get paid about 3-4 dollars per hour. Is it the same in the us?
my family has rental property and have been recently employing a guy named hector from guadalajara. we pay hector 10 dollars an hour for doing random stuff from gardening type stuff to painting. if we dont have things to do then he waits by a lumbar yard in berkeley for work where sometimes, when the weather is good, he can get 15 an hour from contractors. but he usually chooses a steady 10 from us instead of going for the gamble. hector has mentioned that he tries to send at least 100 dollars a week to his family (a wife and two sons), and that while it isnt much here, it goes a long way to pay for rent food and bills.
when he had a job as a bus driver in guadalajara he was making something like a couple hundred a month. and that was by working upwards of 50 hours a week. while here, a work day can be anywhere from 4 to 8 hours. and even though there may be times when he can't get work here, he still makes enough to live here and send money back.
1) No matter what decade or where immigrants come from, the 1st generation of immigrants speak little to no English. They simply don't have to because most immigrants are living in immigrant communities where they can get most of their basic necessities like shopping from people of their own nationality that speak their language. They also usually work in jobs with many other immigrants, many of which are their same nationality. The change since the 1990s is that many more middle and upper class immigrants are coming to the U.S. especially in the high-tech and science fields and many of these first generationers are highly educated and speak English before they even come here. For example, Indians.
2) For immigrant kids, the earlier they begin learning English the better chance they have to become fluent. The later they start, the less they learn. Adults have a very hard time learning English. Not to mention that English is THE hardest language to learn in the world. The main reason being that there are very few rules of English that actually apply so most of the learning is just rote memorization.
3) In California they outlawed bi-lingual education. They just released an in-depth study of the effect of this policy change on California's children. The results: kids that are put in English only classes do not do any better. In some cases they do worse. Again, the deciding factor is when children START learning English.
4) The 2nd generation, if born in the U.S., is almost completely bi-lingual. They learn English in school and speak Spanish at home and with friends. By the 3rd generation, their lucky if they speak any of their home language at all.
On immigrants impact on U.S. economy
1) Overall, immigrants have a positive effect upon the U.S. in terms of work, helping production in the U.S. and American culture.
2) Where immigrants have a negative impact is upon the 5 states that receive the most immigrants: CA, TX, NY, IL, FL. In those states immigrants take more from social services, especially medical care, then they put in simply because they are a larger percentage of the population. In CA I think 1 in 4 in the state are immigrants.
3) Immigrants, whether legal or illegal, DO pay taxes. Unless they are paid under the table, which happens to be a very small percentage of the U.S. work force, they are given pay checks which the businesses deduct state, federal and social security taxes from. If they didn't they would be in big trouble with the IRS.
4) Immigrants have very little impact upon the pay of U.S. workers. A recent study found that illegal immigrants reduce pay for low wage workers in the U.S. by only 5%. The study didn't break it down by state, but I would assume, that illegal immigrants would have a larger impact upon those same 5 states that have the largest immigrant populations because their numbers are so much larger there.
On changing U.S. immigration law
1) If Bush got his bill passed for a temporary worker law and legalizing illegals it would increase immigration to the U.S. in the long run. I think the last time they had an amnesty law in the U.S. was about 1996 or so. What happened then was that many of these newly legalized immigrants wanted to do is bring in their other family members, which was now easier because they were citizens. In terms of temporary workers, it would simply legalize what is already existing in the U.S. There are a large number of legal and illegal immigrants that come to the U.S. and return home. The U.S. also has a history of immigrant worker laws such as the Bracero Program for Mexican workers from 1942-1965. That program brought in roughly 400,000 Mexican workers to CA alone each year during WWII. They worked for about 6 months and then went home. There are also current laws that fast track highly skilled immigrant workers to the U.S. and Congress has been pushing to increase the number of visas issued to these workers and make it easier for them to immigrate. 9/11 slowed that process down.
If the U.S. government truly wanted to crack down on illegal immigration all they have to do is enforce current laws and go after companies. Many illegals are concentrated in restaurants and food processing, farm work, construction, home care/baby sitting, and a few other fields. If they cracked down on all those companies they would greatly reduce the main draw of ALL immigrants to the U.S.: jobs. In 2005 I think the U.S. government only fined ONE company for using illegal immigrants.
Do you believe, as I do, that the U.S. Gov't is looking at these illegal aliens and their unrefundable tax/SS contributions as a band-aid solution to bail out a long suffering and soon to be extinct Social Security system.
Do you believe, as I do, that the U.S. Gov't is looking at these illegal aliens and their unrefundable tax/SS contributions as a band-aid solution to bail out a long suffering and soon to be extinct Social Security system.
Sort of like stealing from Pedro to pay Paul??
This actually gets brought up every now and then in CA. We're going to have the majority white baby boomers retiring soon and a growing Latino population in CA, which is already 1/3 of the total state population, paying for them in SS taxes. Most immigrants pay SS taxes out of their paychecks, but I don't think it'll fix the SS problem. There are simply going to be too many baby boomers retiring for the system to pay for itself anymore. Not to mention that Congress has been routinely taking out of the SS fund to pay for other government spending since at least the 1980s.
hector has mentioned that he tries to send at least 100 dollars a week to his family (a wife and two sons), and that while it isnt much here, it goes a long way to pay for rent food and bills.
when he had a job as a bus driver in guadalajara he was making something like a couple hundred a month. and that was by working upwards of 50 hours a week. while here, a work day can be anywhere from 4 to 8 hours. and even though there may be times when he can't get work here, he still makes enough to live here and send money back.
Yet another problem. Money being made in the United States that is not being re-spent in the US. This is not foreign currency trading or foreign stock market investiture and taking profits elsewhere, this is investing American dollars elsewhere[/b]. This is not a beneficial relationship for the American economy.
I am very liberal leaning when it comes to most things, but flouting the law and saying, "Well, they're already here and they're trying to make it" is not good enough. Dudes are breaking the law and should be treated as such. There are correct methods and standards for becoming a citizen, and there is "the other route." The other route should not be dismissed because "they're already here." Fuck that. What's fair is fair. Come here legal or don't come. This is also the methodology for tons of illegal activity being undertaken in the US. Sex slaves, drug running, "virtual" farm slavery where illegal immigrants have the fear of deportation being held over their heads by their bosses,15 to a room Chinese laborers, all this shit has roots in illegal immigration.
I don't think it's cool how this has become a Mexican thing. It's an illegal thing, Mexican, Caribbean, Chinese, African, all need to get the boot if not here and not documented in the US for legitimate reasons.
Waving Mexican flags does not win the hearts and minds of Americans who Mexicans are saying should accept them as a viable part of America. If you want to be an American, show a modicum amount of loyalty and/or patriotism by leaving the Mexican flag out of it and/or maybe having an American flag to denote being an "American," if not in spirit, in essence and ethic.
One final note to cosign what Birdman was discussing, I grade tests for a living (at this point in time) besides record slanging. I've graded Spanish essays from students who, for whatever reason, can't reply in English or don't feel confident enough to do so. When these students choose to write in Spanish, they are unable to write correct Spanish.[/b] A huge problem. If they cannot communicate effectively in English or Spanish, where does that leave them? These are important issues that need to be addressed.
My 2c. Keep in mind this is not Shabadadabadada saying this, this is a very liberal leaning dude with a conservative view on this matter. Peace T.N.
Most immigrants pay SS taxes out of their paychecks, but I don't think it'll fix the SS problem.
How do they pay taxes? Aren't they paid in cash & aren't the services they render part of an underground economy? Also, if they can pay tax & they are illegal, the government presumably knows of their whereabouts. Why aren't they detained/deported because of their illegal status? Boy, the american goverment has its head up its ass, Iraq, katrina & they can't secure their borders or maintain control over enters & stays in their country. What kind of government is this?
Yet another problem. Money being made in the United States that is not being re-spent in the US. This is not foreign currency trading or foreign stock market investiture and taking profits elsewhere, this is investing American dollars elsewhere[/b]. This is not a beneficial relationship for the American economy.
There are plenty of immigrants that send money home but I'm not sure of its impact on the overall U.S. economy. I would take a wager that the U.S. government and corporations send FAR more money overseas in foreign investments and U.S. foreign aid. This I am positive about however, the U.S. takes IN far more money from foreign countries to support the government's deficit. Most of our debt is subsidized by foreign countries, not U.S. citizens or the government.
I don't think it's cool how this has become a Mexican thing. It's an illegal thing, Mexican, Caribbean, Chinese, African, all need to get the boot if not here and not documented in the US for legitimate reasons.
If the U.S. wants to end illegal immigration they already have the laws to do it. Go after the companies that employ them and they will cut down on illegal immigration. No one in the government is willing to mess with business however in this way, so they go after immigrants who have no real voice in the U.S. instead. And the government does a pretty shitty job of this anyways because the INS is completely underfunded and undermanned to do anything effective at all.
Waving Mexican flags does not win the hearts and minds of Americans who Mexicans are saying should accept them as a viable part of America. If you want to be an American, show a modicum amount of loyalty and/or patriotism by leaving the Mexican flag out of it and/or maybe having an American flag to denote being an "American," if not in spirit, in essence and ethic.
In California this was actually an issue with the pro-immigrant groups. They had a lot of people, especially Spanish speaking DJs telling people to put away Mexican and other Latin flags and wave American ones instead. Still, it's a free country, if they want to fly their home country flag it really doesn't bother me one way or another.
One final note to cosign what Birdman was discussing, I grade tests for a living (at this point in time) besides record slanging. I've graded Spanish essays from students who, for whatever reason, can't reply in English or don't feel confident enough to do so. When these students choose to write in Spanish, they are unable to write correct Spanish.[/b] A huge problem. If they cannot communicate effectively in English or Spanish, where does that leave them? These are important issues that need to be addressed.
The kids are probably from poor families in Latin America where they never leanred to write properly. Living in America, they don't really have to write in Spanish though so it won't improve. And as I stated above, if they're 1st generation in this country, they'll most likely end up working in a job where they'll be other home language speakers and they won't have to learn that much English. Latinos already have the highest drop out rates in the U.S. Mainly because they get drawn into work and forfeit school. Whether their English writing skills progress will depend upon when they started going to school in the U.S. The later they started, the less they will learn of English.
Most immigrants pay SS taxes out of their paychecks, but I don't think it'll fix the SS problem.
How do they pay taxes? Aren't they paid in cash & aren't the services they render part of an underground economy? Also, if they can pay tax & they are illegal, the government presumably knows of their whereabouts. Why aren't they detained/deported because of their illegal status? Boy, the american goverment has its head up its ass, Iraq, katrina & they can't secure their borders or maintain control over enters & stays in their country. What kind of government is this?
Getting paid in cash is a very small part of the overall U.S. economy. The majority of immigrants get pay checks just like everyone else. They can go to a check cashing place to get their money because most don't have a bank account. If they're paid with a pay check, the business will put it in its books. If they put it in their books, they must deduct the 3 taxes everyone has deducted from their paychecks, state, federal and social security. If they paid all these people, put it in their books, and didn't deduct taxes, they'd be flagged by the IRS probably every single year and get busted which is too much of a hassle. Illegal immigrants also pay all kind of day to day taxes like sales taxes, taxes on gas, etc. What illegal immigrants will NOT pay is their yearly taxes that are due in April here in the U.S.
Just because the business marks down that they paid taxes on all these workers there is no way for the government to tell whether they are legal immigrants, illegal immigrants or just plain U.S. citizens. It just says they taxed so and so's pay check out of hundreds and thousands of others.
And by the way, Canadians were one of the top 5 illegal immigrant groups to the U.S. in the 1990s. Not sure if that's changed one way or the other.
Comments
VIVA LA HUELGA!!![/b]
I work part-time at an urban hospital in DC....in any given shift I see at least one family that has been here for years(based on how long there children have been in the system) that know zero english. These may be citizens for all I know, but regardless they don't learn english. The sadder part is that a large number of the younger immigrant parents seem to not be able to READ spanish (or english when they speak it) well or at all on top of poor language skills.
In terms of financial or economic impact, probably nothing. These sorts of protests or boycotts or whatever don't really work unless a significant percentage of the population all engages in it.
However, as far as speaking up, demonstrating that they're actual people and not just political footballs, all that kind of stuff, I think (and hope) that a real impact was made today.
**Edit** Yeah, the impact is basically what Shig said a couple posts up.
Chr*s, you're a rational guy... do you think they're just lazy or "refusing" to learn?
Based on my experience, these are people that don't have time - or money - to take language classes.
to revisit the Angela Davis piece a while back, it takes more than a protest. I imagine a lot of work will keep being done in the same way this was organized...like Shig said...quietly...watching folks make hundreds of phone calls isn't that interesting!
But what exactly are they speaking out ABOUT? This is the question that never gets answered! Is it just to show force? Why should that make anybody think twice or feel good about it? Is it to assert their rights? What rights are being infringed? Is it to show concern about lousy US Immigration policy(which is essentially no policy at all)? I think people get completely sidetracked by the circus of protest and have NO IDEA what this whole 'immigration issue' is even about. And how do you solve a problem that is 25 problems rolled into one? How is there a right side to this issue?
i think the important thing here is that people are now talking about it. the issues, whether it be immigration policy, immigrant rights, mandating a language requirement, the economic impact. whatever you want to talk about concerning this issue is now being talked about. the goal, in my opinion, has probably been met. maybe nobody has a solution, but its important that you get folks talking before you start making any hasty decisions.
peep dude's shirt on the far right edge of the pic.
That's really a major point here because often, the loudest voices are the ones who want to treat this issue as being one simple thing with one simple solution. At the very least, the debate has to be broken into two main subjects:
1) What do we do about people trying to come into the U.S.? And
2) What do we do about the 10-12 million undocumented folks who are already here?
And then those can even be further subdivided. But they need to be recognized as needing solutions unto themselves instead of just searching for the Magic Answer to All Immigration Issues.
The problem is one of isolation and of the system creating a semi-permanent lower class. The US government is not any more interested in helping poor latino kids (or their parents) learn than they want any other lower class kids educated well. This is why groups of (mostly undocumented)immigrants group together and then do not HAVE to speak anything besides Spanish. I never said they were lazy....I do often think some are definetly uninterested, based soley on their attitudes. Not most, most can communicate well or understand the fact that most of the staff doesn't speak english. It's just frustrating when you can see how their illegal status often leads to their being so limited in the US and knowing that it is still a far cry better for them here than in Mexico or Central America, well, it speaks volumes of their own countries failures where their people are concerned.
And yes, I understand that the US has often had it's hand in interfereing with a lot of these nations, but how will any of these countries situations improve while the US takes on many of their poorest citizens?
I guess I look at these demonstrations and wonder why the US takes it on the chin when they are all looking at the US as the solution to all their problems, and why are they not protesting why their nations of origin don't do more to help them or provide better conditions and opportunities?
But what goal has been met? The goal that latinos can gather in great numbers? How is that a goal?
This issue is election year 'divide and conquer' tactics, and it's WAY bigger stakes that the tired 'gay marriage' issue. The only thing this accomplishes is pitting people against one another and making rational folks act out of fear on both sides. If I hear one more pundit refer to someone as 'anti-immigration' because they voice an opinion that it might be wise to simply enforce EXISTING laws as opposed to creating new ones that felonize people, well, I might just flip my wig. It's getting out of hand and no one even knows what the fight is about.
If I had a dollar for each person protesting who couldn't articulate(in whatever their language may be) exactly WHY they were there, I would be rich.
goal #1 was to bring attention to HR4437 a bit of legislature that was to go before the senate a few weeks ago. it would have turned millions into felons. it not only impacted illegal aliens, but it also impacted social workers, care givers, health workers, teachers, clergy, etc. and the bill was specifically directed at central american illegal immigration. hence the "latinos gathering in great numbers" as a goal. to not only bring this disputed bill to the mainstream light, but to also rally the people that it was projected to impact the most.
what i dont get is why youre asking about this here? i mean its been in the newspapers for the past months. and if you reread your own post, you pretty much answer your own question.
so what are you really upset about? that you have to pick a side? are you anti-this or pro-that? i mean, you live in DC, which im gonna assume isnt daly city but is in fact our capitol. and youre not used to this type of politicking? about "making rational folks act out of fear on both sides"? i mean, its practically the basis of modern bipartisan democracy.
Just wondering: do illegal immigrants in the us get paid a proper living wage or does the minimum wage not apply to them? In quebec, the minimum wage is 7.75 per hour. The illegals I know here get paid about 3-4 dollars per hour. Is it the same in the us?
dude, this is america.
does that answer your question?
In my company, our janitorial staff get paid a starting wage of 15.00 bucks an hour. People who have been with us for a few years make over 20.00 and I'm sure its hard to make ends meet in a family when getting paid 25.00 per hour, what with tax deductions and all. Sometimes, I have to call in contractors to handle big cleaning jobs & they usually have illegals working for them & pay them a quarter of what we pay our guys. Its crazy shit.
Please don't confuse a minimum wage with a living wage. The term living wage I'm sure actually came into use because the minimum wage falls well short of adequate for the vast majority of people who receive it.
I agree though that minimum wage is wholly unlivable. Its never been adjusted correctly according to inflation.
having just finished my final 15 page paper on the effects of mexican immigration in the 20th century, may i add a few comments....US farmers/growers actively encouraged mexicans to immigrate in the early 20th century...this was the case actually until the depression when euro-americans were then willing to pick grapes for a dime a day...when WWII broke out, americans were sent away and again mexican labor(ie.cheap labor) was again sought...one might say that the history of the mexican in the US is the history of adaptation to the needs of the american labor market--whether in agriculture, mining, construction, etc...also, these businesses have a long track record of abuse, neglect, and outright obstinancy in rekoginizing the value of the immigrant's contribution to the US economy....thus, la lucha continua.....paz
Happy Mayday indeed!
Started with a rally at Union Sq and then a march down Broadway to Federal Plaza / Court House. Apart from the eyes in the sky, police presence was minimal. Yes, cheap flags were sold, but of course you could bargain
PS: Union Square was named for all the Union HQs there, but now more famous as home of DSW and Whole Foods
The Commish hanging out by the hot dogs... too easy
Yeah, I don't get why this was done and with the likes of A.N.S.W.E.R.
Immigrant movement indeed.
1) No matter what decade or where immigrants come from, the 1st generation of immigrants speak little to no English. They simply don't have to because most immigrants are living in immigrant communities where they can get most of their basic necessities like shopping from people of their own nationality that speak their language. They also usually work in jobs with many other immigrants, many of which are their same nationality. The change since the 1990s is that many more middle and upper class immigrants are coming to the U.S. especially in the high-tech and science fields and many of these first generationers are highly educated and speak English before they even come here. For example, Indians.
2) For immigrant kids, the earlier they begin learning English the better chance they have to become fluent. The later they start, the less they learn. Adults have a very hard time learning English. Not to mention that English is THE hardest language to learn in the world. The main reason being that there are very few rules of English that actually apply so most of the learning is just rote memorization.
3) In California they outlawed bi-lingual education. They just released an in-depth study of the effect of this policy change on California's children. The results: kids that are put in English only classes do not do any better. In some cases they do worse. Again, the deciding factor is when children START learning English.
4) The 2nd generation, if born in the U.S., is almost completely bi-lingual. They learn English in school and speak Spanish at home and with friends. By the 3rd generation, their lucky if they speak any of their home language at all.
On immigrants impact on U.S. economy
1) Overall, immigrants have a positive effect upon the U.S. in terms of work, helping production in the U.S. and American culture.
2) Where immigrants have a negative impact is upon the 5 states that receive the most immigrants: CA, TX, NY, IL, FL. In those states immigrants take more from social services, especially medical care, then they put in simply because they are a larger percentage of the population. In CA I think 1 in 4 in the state are immigrants.
3) Immigrants, whether legal or illegal, DO pay taxes. Unless they are paid under the table, which happens to be a very small percentage of the U.S. work force, they are given pay checks which the businesses deduct state, federal and social security taxes from. If they didn't they would be in big trouble with the IRS.
4) Immigrants have very little impact upon the pay of U.S. workers. A recent study found that illegal immigrants reduce pay for low wage workers in the U.S. by only 5%. The study didn't break it down by state, but I would assume, that illegal immigrants would have a larger impact upon those same 5 states that have the largest immigrant populations because their numbers are so much larger there.
On changing U.S. immigration law
1) If Bush got his bill passed for a temporary worker law and legalizing illegals it would increase immigration to the U.S. in the long run. I think the last time they had an amnesty law in the U.S. was about 1996 or so. What happened then was that many of these newly legalized immigrants wanted to do is bring in their other family members, which was now easier because they were citizens. In terms of temporary workers, it would simply legalize what is already existing in the U.S. There are a large number of legal and illegal immigrants that come to the U.S. and return home. The U.S. also has a history of immigrant worker laws such as the Bracero Program for Mexican workers from 1942-1965. That program brought in roughly 400,000 Mexican workers to CA alone each year during WWII. They worked for about 6 months and then went home. There are also current laws that fast track highly skilled immigrant workers to the U.S. and Congress has been pushing to increase the number of visas issued to these workers and make it easier for them to immigrate. 9/11 slowed that process down.
If the U.S. government truly wanted to crack down on illegal immigration all they have to do is enforce current laws and go after companies. Many illegals are concentrated in restaurants and food processing, farm work, construction, home care/baby sitting, and a few other fields. If they cracked down on all those companies they would greatly reduce the main draw of ALL immigrants to the U.S.: jobs. In 2005 I think the U.S. government only fined ONE company for using illegal immigrants.
my family has rental property and have been recently employing a guy named hector from guadalajara. we pay hector 10 dollars an hour for doing random stuff from gardening type stuff to painting. if we dont have things to do then he waits by a lumbar yard in berkeley for work where sometimes, when the weather is good, he can get 15 an hour from contractors. but he usually chooses a steady 10 from us instead of going for the gamble. hector has mentioned that he tries to send at least 100 dollars a week to his family (a wife and two sons), and that while it isnt much here, it goes a long way to pay for rent food and bills.
when he had a job as a bus driver in guadalajara he was making something like a couple hundred a month. and that was by working upwards of 50 hours a week. while here, a work day can be anywhere from 4 to 8 hours. and even though there may be times when he can't get work here, he still makes enough to live here and send money back.
Do you believe, as I do, that the U.S. Gov't is looking at these illegal aliens and their unrefundable tax/SS contributions as a band-aid solution to bail out a long suffering and soon to be extinct Social Security system.
Sort of like stealing from Pedro to pay Paul??
This actually gets brought up every now and then in CA. We're going to have the majority white baby boomers retiring soon and a growing Latino population in CA, which is already 1/3 of the total state population, paying for them in SS taxes. Most immigrants pay SS taxes out of their paychecks, but I don't think it'll fix the SS problem. There are simply going to be too many baby boomers retiring for the system to pay for itself anymore. Not to mention that Congress has been routinely taking out of the SS fund to pay for other government spending since at least the 1980s.
Yet another problem. Money being made in the United States that is not being re-spent in the US. This is not foreign currency trading or foreign stock market investiture and taking profits elsewhere, this is investing American dollars elsewhere[/b]. This is not a beneficial relationship for the American economy.
I am very liberal leaning when it comes to most things, but flouting the law and saying, "Well, they're already here and they're trying to make it" is not good enough. Dudes are breaking the law and should be treated as such. There are correct methods and standards for becoming a citizen, and there is "the other route." The other route should not be dismissed because "they're already here." Fuck that. What's fair is fair. Come here legal or don't come. This is also the methodology for tons of illegal activity being undertaken in the US. Sex slaves, drug running, "virtual" farm slavery where illegal immigrants have the fear of deportation being held over their heads by their bosses,15 to a room Chinese laborers, all this shit has roots in illegal immigration.
I don't think it's cool how this has become a Mexican thing. It's an illegal thing, Mexican, Caribbean, Chinese, African, all need to get the boot if not here and not documented in the US for legitimate reasons.
Waving Mexican flags does not win the hearts and minds of Americans who Mexicans are saying should accept them as a viable part of America. If you want to be an American, show a modicum amount of loyalty and/or patriotism by leaving the Mexican flag out of it and/or maybe having an American flag to denote being an "American," if not in spirit, in essence and ethic.
One final note to cosign what Birdman was discussing, I grade tests for a living (at this point in time) besides record slanging. I've graded Spanish essays from students who, for whatever reason, can't reply in English or don't feel confident enough to do so. When these students choose to write in Spanish, they are unable to write correct Spanish.[/b] A huge problem. If they cannot communicate effectively in English or Spanish, where does that leave them? These are important issues that need to be addressed.
My 2c. Keep in mind this is not Shabadadabadada saying this, this is a very liberal leaning dude with a conservative view on this matter.
Peace
T.N.
How do they pay taxes? Aren't they paid in cash & aren't the services they render part of an underground economy? Also, if they can pay tax & they are illegal, the government presumably knows of their whereabouts. Why aren't they detained/deported because of their illegal status? Boy, the american goverment has its head up its ass, Iraq, katrina & they can't secure their borders or maintain control over enters & stays in their country. What kind of government is this?
There are plenty of immigrants that send money home but I'm not sure of its impact on the overall U.S. economy. I would take a wager that the U.S. government and corporations send FAR more money overseas in foreign investments and U.S. foreign aid. This I am positive about however, the U.S. takes IN far more money from foreign countries to support the government's deficit. Most of our debt is subsidized by foreign countries, not U.S. citizens or the government.
If the U.S. wants to end illegal immigration they already have the laws to do it. Go after the companies that employ them and they will cut down on illegal immigration. No one in the government is willing to mess with business however in this way, so they go after immigrants who have no real voice in the U.S. instead. And the government does a pretty shitty job of this anyways because the INS is completely underfunded and undermanned to do anything effective at all.
In California this was actually an issue with the pro-immigrant groups. They had a lot of people, especially Spanish speaking DJs telling people to put away Mexican and other Latin flags and wave American ones instead. Still, it's a free country, if they want to fly their home country flag it really doesn't bother me one way or another.
The kids are probably from poor families in Latin America where they never leanred to write properly. Living in America, they don't really have to write in Spanish though so it won't improve. And as I stated above, if they're 1st generation in this country, they'll most likely end up working in a job where they'll be other home language speakers and they won't have to learn that much English. Latinos already have the highest drop out rates in the U.S. Mainly because they get drawn into work and forfeit school. Whether their English writing skills progress will depend upon when they started going to school in the U.S. The later they started, the less they will learn of English.
Getting paid in cash is a very small part of the overall U.S. economy. The majority of immigrants get pay checks just like everyone else. They can go to a check cashing place to get their money because most don't have a bank account. If they're paid with a pay check, the business will put it in its books. If they put it in their books, they must deduct the 3 taxes everyone has deducted from their paychecks, state, federal and social security. If they paid all these people, put it in their books, and didn't deduct taxes, they'd be flagged by the IRS probably every single year and get busted which is too much of a hassle. Illegal immigrants also pay all kind of day to day taxes like sales taxes, taxes on gas, etc. What illegal immigrants will NOT pay is their yearly taxes that are due in April here in the U.S.
Just because the business marks down that they paid taxes on all these workers there is no way for the government to tell whether they are legal immigrants, illegal immigrants or just plain U.S. citizens. It just says they taxed so and so's pay check out of hundreds and thousands of others.
And by the way, Canadians were one of the top 5 illegal immigrant groups to the U.S. in the 1990s. Not sure if that's changed one way or the other.