english will not stop being the working/de facto language of Canada or the States anytime soon, so all this alarmist talk is unfounded.
My company just hired two French speaking Technical Service representitives to service our sales people in the French Provinces of Canada.
We moved this department from Canada to the States and someone mistakenly thought that English alone would suffice in servicing these folks.
We were told that the French speaking sales people, while they could all speak at least a little English, would only conduct business in French.
My company's thoughts were if we go to their country to do business, we should speak their language, and asking them to learn or use English would be disrespectful.
From the experiences of those of you in Canada, is this true or did we get fed a giant helping of bullshit??
half the people singing it at a game dont even know the words.
My late grandfather, god rest his soul, a decorated general in WWII, I swear to friggin God had his own lyrics to that shit. I could never figure out what he was singing.
haha, my family does the same thing. back in grade school days I was sounding like a mess having 2 deaf americans trying to help me learn the words.
My company's thoughts were if we go to their country to do business, we should speak their language, and asking them to learn or use English would be disrespectful.
I'm willing to bet that in truth, if the situation were reversed, your crew would be in Canada saying "jeez you think they would have some people who speak English for us to deal with, why do they expect us to speak French?"
My company's thoughts were if we go to their country to do business, we should speak their language, and asking them to learn or use English would be disrespectful.
I'm willing to bet that in truth, if the situation were reversed, your crew would be in Canada saying "jeez you think they would have some people who speak English for us to deal with, why do they expect us to speak French?"
Huh??
All of these people work FOR my company....I'm sure if they wanted to, they could hire English speaking salepeople in the French Provinces...they didn't.
english will not stop being the working/de facto language of Canada or the States anytime soon, so all this alarmist talk is unfounded.
My company just hired two French speaking Technical Service representitives to service our sales people in the French Provinces of Canada.
We moved this department from Canada to the States and someone mistakenly thought that English alone would suffice in servicing these folks.
We were told that the French speaking sales people, while they could all speak at least a little English, would only conduct business in French.
My company's thoughts were if we go to their country to do business, we should speak their language, and asking them to learn or use English would be disrespectful.
From the experiences of those of you in Canada, is this true or did we get fed a giant helping of bullshit??
It depends on the individual. I live in a French speaking province. People will speak to you in either language, but knowledge of English can be limited for some french folks because of provincial laws which limit the amount of English that can be taught in schools. If you speak to a french speaker in french, but have a poor grasp of the language, many will switch to english to save themselves the headache of hearing you speak. I think there is an appriciation of the effort, though. There are militant types that will bust your ass. It depends on the individual. I don't think many people here can appriciate the complexity of this language issue. People here are like "americans should know another language." I think they could benifit just as well from knowing about political situations outside of their scope of interest. If the americans on this board knew more about my provinces language laws, they'd crap themselves. Its not a simple debate. I've seen it almost destroy the place I call home. If I were the president, I'd start talking about the oil crisis/middle east/environment. Anything but this anthem/language business. That's a can of worms you don't want to open.
I still say this has nothing (really) to do with language. All that is, is just a cover for the real problem. Pride... On both sides.
I mean, if this really was about language, wouldn't we all be learning some form of Chinese? Since about 1/6TH of the world speaks some form of a dialect of Mandarin or Cantonese.
But in truth, English is the dominant world language. I don't mean it's the best or greatest. I just mean, throughout the world, in most countries (besides their native language) there are people speaking English. Mostly due to the export of American culture and commerce throughout the world.
You do know that in "early America" there were MANY different languages spoken and the only reason that Americans had to adapt to the English language was due to English mandate under colony law.
It was bullshit then, and it's just as bullshit now.
Is it at all ironic that the ruling family of that country is of German heritage and most probably can't speak their native tongue?
I will say this, it's kinda crazy that a lil song can cause so much BLAH BLAH BLAH. I don't even remember there being anywhere close to this amount of a shit storm in my country when the Quebec government made it illegal to have any signs posted in anything other than French (Even Chinese characters outside a Chinese restaurant were illegal and you would get fined).
I think we can all agree that the Star Spangled Banner sucks. Melody, lyrics, the whole thing. It's a celebration of the war of 1812. A war that made freedom safe for the world, and ended all wars, or maybe not.
The only really good version I have ever heard was Aretha Franklin at the 1992 Democratic Convention. But she could sing the menu at the Prescott Diner and I would think it was great.
Greatest performance of a national anthem. The French National Anthem (Marsellies?) in the movie Casablanca. My mother tells me that she saw it in the theater in the 40s the audience stood and sang during that sceen.
I think we can all agree that the Star Spangled Banner sucks. Melody, lyrics, the whole thing. It's a celebration of the war of 1812. A war that made freedom safe for the world, and ended all wars, or maybe not.
The only really good version I have ever heard was Aretha Franklin at the 1992 Democratic Convention. But she could sing the menu at the Prescott Diner and I would think it was great.
Greatest performance of a national anthem. The French National Anthem (Marsellies?) in the movie Casablanca. My mother tells me that she saw it in the theater in the 40s the audience stood and sang during that sceen.
Dan
My gurl just said she liked when Whitney sang it at the superbowl.
CNN just showed different people screwing up the lyrics. Was pretty good, until they showed Rosanne singin.
im always suspicious towards the end of the song when everyone starts clapping. its like theyre already anticipating the end of the song and everyone's like "WOOHOOOOOO!!!! ITS ALMOST OVER!!!!!"
HIT SOMEBODDDYYYYY!!!
and yeah, while I agree that it's a good idea for immigrants coming into the US to learn English (just like it's a good idea for all US born English-speaking citizens to learn Spanish and/or other languages, unfortunately a lot of our schools don't offer second language courses until high school and by then the window of opportunity for the human brain to take on another language is pretty much closed), the idea that the fucking president is speaking out about a song on a CD is fucking ludicrous and like someone said totally transparent pandering. Bleh.
I used to like singing songs in different languages. "Anarchy In The UK" sounds good in french: "Je Suis Un Anti-Christ. Je Suis Un Anarchiste! Je sais pas ce que je veux mais je sais l'obtenir!" Also, "Yesterday" or "вчера" sounds great in Russian.
I used to like singing songs in different languages. "Anarchy In The UK" sounds good in french: "Je Suis Un Anti-Christ. Je Suis Un Anarchiste! Je sais pas ce que je veux mais je sais l'obtenir!" Also, "Yesterday" or "вчера" sounds great in Russian.
why do you hate freedom? you're either with us or against us!
Now that this thread has been revived, did anyone catch the stories on Bush being a complete hypocrite for having sung the national anthem in spanish back when he was campaigning!!!!
Here is the white house's reply: Bush can't speak spanish that good! haha.
Now that this thread has been revived, did anyone catch the stories on Bush being a complete hypocrite for having sung the national anthem in spanish back when he was campaigning!!!!
Here is the white house's reply: Bush can't speak spanish that good! haha.
1) Singing the Nat'l Anthem in Spanish is no big deal.
2) Bush is a hypocrite and political pander-er.
3) Learning English if you live in America is a good idea.
4) Learning a second language, especially Spanish, if you live in America is an even better idea.
Questionable Assertions (most made by Rockadelic):
1) If the American public voted to make Swahili the national language tomorrow, Rockadelic would be "fine with that."
I really, really doubt that you'd be "fine" with that. I also want to point out that English was never voted in as the official language of the U.S. This doesn't matter much since by 2100, we'll all be speaking Span-Mandarin anyways.
2) New Zealand has mandated that English is their official language and no one is complaining.
Well, actually, this might be a good time to brush up on your Maori sovereignty movement lit. The acceptance of a bilingual society is foremost amongst their demands. And from what I understand, the New Zealand gov't hasn't come out blasting it.
1) Singing the Nat'l Anthem in Spanish is no big deal.
2) Bush is a hypocrite and political pander-er.
3) Learning English if you live in America is a good idea.
4) Learning a second language, especially Spanish, if you live in America is an even better idea.
1. Completely agree. Unless of course, you change the lryics.
2. Completely agree. But that would go for 99.9% of all politicians.
3. Completely agree.
4. Completely agree. But then, learning French might be a good idea also. Since Canadians & the US are doing billions in trade everyday. Far more than anyone else on the planet.
The airing last week on Hispanic radio stations of "Nuestro Himno," a Spanish-language adaptation of the American national anthem, has been greeted with an unprecedented and, indeed, astonishing wave of denunciations all over the United States.
Talk show hosts and academics have indignantly called this loving rendition by a group of Latino artists a desecration of a national symbol. Senators -- both the conservative Lamar Alexander and the liberal Edward M. Kennedy -- have declared that "The Star-Spangled Banner" should be sung exclusively in English. And they have been joined by President Bush, who has used the occasion to remind the citizenry that "one of the important things here is, when we debate this issue, that we not lose our national soul."
The national soul? In danger of being lost? Because Haitian American singer Wyclef Jean and Cuban American rapper Pitbull are crooning " a la luz de la aurora" instead of "by the dawn's early light"? Would such an outcry have erupted over a Navajo version of the national anthem? Or if the words had been rendered into Basque or Farsi or Inuit? Would anybody have cared if some nostalgic band had decided to recover and record the legendary 1860s translations of the song into Yiddish or Latin?
Of course not.
There's a reason for the current uproar. The streets of America are not filled with marching Eskimos or Basque patriots, and certainly not with scholars ardently shouting against discrimination in the lost language of Virgil. What resonated in Los Angeles and Atlanta, Chicago and New York, as recently as last Monday were the voices of hundreds of thousands of protesters demanding that the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States be granted amnesty. And the language in which they were chanting was the same sacrilegious Spanish of "Nuestro Himno."
No wonder the Spanish version of the national anthem caused such alarm: It was a reminder that, along with their swarthy and laboring bodies, those immigrants had smuggled into El Norte the extremely vivacious language of Miguel de Cervantes and Octavio Paz. They weren't coming here merely to work, bake bread, lay bricks, change diapers, wash dishes, pick strawberries, work, work, work; Dios m??o , they might decide to speak! And not necessarily in English.
Although English is what most immigrant parents have always wanted for their children, what distinguishes these recent arrivals from earlier huddled masses is that they're not prepared to abandon la lengua materna, the mother tongue. Spanish is not going to fade away like Norwegian or Italian or German did during previous assimilative waves. It is not only whispered by the largest minority group in the United States, but is also being spoken and written and dreamed, right now, at this very moment, by hundreds of millions of men and women in the immense neighboring Latino South. Spanish is a language that has come to stay.
I believe this is why "Nuestro Himno" has been received with such trepidation. By infiltrating one of the safest symbols of U.S. national identity with Spanish syllables, this version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" has crossed a line. It has inadvertently announced something many Americans have dreaded for years: that their country is on its way to becoming a bilingual nation.
If I'm right about this, and America will sometime soon be articulating its identity in two languages, then the question looms: How will the citizens of the United States react to this monumental challenge?
One possibility, of course, is a nativist backlash, with more vigilante Minutemen swilling beer in the Arizona sun, more calls for deporting all illegal workers, more demands that an impenetrable wall be built against the foreign hordes, more attempts to dismantle bilingual education in U.S. schools.
But others may tell themselves that the United States has been built on diversity and tolerance and that, at a time when the national soul is indeed being tested, at a time when the democratic ideals at the heart of American identity are truly in danger of being sacrificed on the altar of false security, our better angels should welcome the wonders of Spanish to the struggle and the debate.
For those who are afraid and claim it can't be done and believe that the United States can only endure if it is monolingual, there's a simple answer. It comes in words that have been heard on the streets of America in recent days, sung and imagined by men and women who crossed deserts and risked everything to live the American dream. In words that the nation's founders and pioneers might have embraced, and that have now become part of the national vocabulary:
Comments
My company just hired two French speaking Technical Service representitives to service our sales people in the French Provinces of Canada.
We moved this department from Canada to the States and someone mistakenly thought that English alone would suffice in servicing these folks.
We were told that the French speaking sales people, while they could all speak at least a little English, would only conduct business in French.
My company's thoughts were if we go to their country to do business, we should speak their language, and asking them to learn or use English would be disrespectful.
From the experiences of those of you in Canada, is this true or did we get fed a giant helping of bullshit??
haha, my family does the same thing. back in grade school days I was sounding like a mess having 2 deaf americans trying to help me learn the words.
I'm willing to bet that in truth, if the situation
were reversed, your crew would be in Canada saying
"jeez you think they would have some people who speak
English for us to deal with, why do they expect us
to speak French?"
Huh??
All of these people work FOR my company....I'm sure if they wanted to, they could hire English speaking salepeople in the French Provinces...they didn't.
It depends on the individual. I live in a French speaking province. People will speak to you in either language, but knowledge of English can be limited for some french folks because of provincial laws which limit the amount of English that can be taught in schools. If you speak to a french speaker in french, but have a poor grasp of the language, many will switch to english to save themselves the headache of hearing you speak. I think there is an appriciation of the effort, though. There are militant types that will bust your ass. It depends on the individual. I don't think many people here can appriciate the complexity of this language issue. People here are like "americans should know another language." I think they could benifit just as well from knowing about political situations outside of their scope of interest. If the americans on this board knew more about my provinces language laws, they'd crap themselves. Its not a simple debate. I've seen it almost destroy the place I call home. If I were the president, I'd start talking about the oil crisis/middle east/environment. Anything but this anthem/language business. That's a can of worms you don't want to open.
I mean, if this really was about language, wouldn't we all be learning some form of Chinese? Since about 1/6TH of the world speaks some form of a dialect of Mandarin or Cantonese.
But in truth, English is the dominant world language. I don't mean it's the best or greatest. I just mean, throughout the world, in most countries (besides their native language) there are people speaking English. Mostly due to the export of American culture and commerce throughout the world.
Is it at all ironic that the ruling family of that country is of German heritage and most probably can't speak their native tongue?
I will say this, it's kinda crazy that a lil song can cause so much BLAH BLAH BLAH. I don't even remember there being anywhere close to this amount of a shit storm in my country when the Quebec government made it illegal to have any signs posted in anything other than French (Even Chinese characters outside a Chinese restaurant were illegal and you would get fined).
C???est La Vie
The only really good version I have ever heard was Aretha Franklin at the 1992 Democratic Convention. But she could sing the menu at the Prescott Diner and I would think it was great.
Greatest performance of a national anthem. The French National Anthem (Marsellies?) in the movie Casablanca. My mother tells me that she saw it in the theater in the 40s the audience stood and sang during that sceen.
Dan
My gurl just said she liked when Whitney sang it at the superbowl.
CNN just showed different people screwing up the lyrics. Was pretty good, until they showed Rosanne singin.
HIT SOMEBODDDYYYYY!!!
and yeah, while I agree that it's a good idea for immigrants coming into the US to learn English (just like it's a good idea for all US born English-speaking citizens to learn Spanish and/or other languages, unfortunately a lot of our schools don't offer second language courses until high school and by then the window of opportunity for the human brain to take on another language is pretty much closed), the idea that the fucking president is speaking out about a song on a CD is fucking ludicrous and like someone said totally transparent pandering. Bleh.
why do you hate freedom? you're either with us or against us!
cosign
Here is the white house's reply: Bush can't speak spanish that good! haha.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060504/pl_n...jRtBHNlYwMxNjk5
IMPEACH!!
1) Singing the Nat'l Anthem in Spanish is no big deal.
2) Bush is a hypocrite and political pander-er.
3) Learning English if you live in America is a good idea.
4) Learning a second language, especially Spanish, if you live in America is an even better idea.
Questionable Assertions (most made by Rockadelic):
1) If the American public voted to make Swahili the national language tomorrow, Rockadelic would be "fine with that."
I really, really doubt that you'd be "fine" with that. I also want to point out that English was never voted in as the official language of the U.S. This doesn't matter much since by 2100, we'll all be speaking Span-Mandarin anyways.
2) New Zealand has mandated that English is their official language and no one is complaining.
Well, actually, this might be a good time to brush up on your Maori sovereignty movement lit. The acceptance of a bilingual society is foremost amongst their demands. And from what I understand, the New Zealand gov't hasn't come out blasting it.
1. Completely agree. Unless of course, you change the lryics.
2. Completely agree. But that would go for 99.9% of all politicians.
3. Completely agree.
4. Completely agree. But then, learning French might be a good idea also. Since Canadians & the US are doing billions in trade everyday. Far more than anyone else on the planet.
Oh yeah. He was fir it before he was agin' it. People should throw flip-flops at him or something.
Sunday, May 7, 2006
Waving the Star-Spanglish Banner
By Ariel Dorfman
The airing last week on Hispanic radio stations of "Nuestro Himno," a Spanish-language adaptation of the American national anthem, has been greeted with an unprecedented and, indeed, astonishing wave of denunciations all over the United States.
Talk show hosts and academics have indignantly called this loving rendition by a group of Latino artists a desecration of a national symbol. Senators -- both the conservative Lamar Alexander and the liberal Edward M. Kennedy -- have declared that "The Star-Spangled Banner" should be sung exclusively in English. And they have been joined by President Bush, who has used the occasion to remind the citizenry that "one of the important things here is, when we debate this issue, that we not lose our national soul."
The national soul? In danger of being lost? Because Haitian American singer Wyclef Jean and Cuban American rapper Pitbull are crooning " a la luz de la aurora" instead of "by the dawn's early light"? Would such an outcry have erupted over a Navajo version of the national anthem? Or if the words had been rendered into Basque or Farsi or Inuit? Would anybody have cared if some nostalgic band had decided to recover and record the legendary 1860s translations of the song into Yiddish or Latin?
Of course not.
There's a reason for the current uproar. The streets of America are not filled with marching Eskimos or Basque patriots, and certainly not with scholars ardently shouting against discrimination in the lost language of Virgil. What resonated in Los Angeles and Atlanta, Chicago and New York, as recently as last Monday were the voices of hundreds of thousands of protesters demanding that the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States be granted amnesty. And the language in which they were chanting was the same sacrilegious Spanish of "Nuestro Himno."
No wonder the Spanish version of the national anthem caused such alarm: It was a reminder that, along with their swarthy and laboring bodies, those immigrants had smuggled into El Norte the extremely vivacious language of Miguel de Cervantes and Octavio Paz. They weren't coming here merely to work, bake bread, lay bricks, change diapers, wash dishes, pick strawberries, work, work, work; Dios m??o , they might decide to speak! And not necessarily in English.
Although English is what most immigrant parents have always wanted for their children, what distinguishes these recent arrivals from earlier huddled masses is that they're not prepared to abandon la lengua materna, the mother tongue. Spanish is not going to fade away like Norwegian or Italian or German did during previous assimilative waves. It is not only whispered by the largest minority group in the United States, but is also being spoken and written and dreamed, right now, at this very moment, by hundreds of millions of men and women in the immense neighboring Latino South. Spanish is a language that has come to stay.
I believe this is why "Nuestro Himno" has been received with such trepidation. By infiltrating one of the safest symbols of U.S. national identity with Spanish syllables, this version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" has crossed a line. It has inadvertently announced something many Americans have dreaded for years: that their country is on its way to becoming a bilingual nation.
If I'm right about this, and America will sometime soon be articulating its identity in two languages, then the question looms: How will the citizens of the United States react to this monumental challenge?
One possibility, of course, is a nativist backlash, with more vigilante Minutemen swilling beer in the Arizona sun, more calls for deporting all illegal workers, more demands that an impenetrable wall be built against the foreign hordes, more attempts to dismantle bilingual education in U.S. schools.
But others may tell themselves that the United States has been built on diversity and tolerance and that, at a time when the national soul is indeed being tested, at a time when the democratic ideals at the heart of American identity are truly in danger of being sacrificed on the altar of false security, our better angels should welcome the wonders of Spanish to the struggle and the debate.
For those who are afraid and claim it can't be done and believe that the United States can only endure if it is monolingual, there's a simple answer. It comes in words that have been heard on the streets of America in recent days, sung and imagined by men and women who crossed deserts and risked everything to live the American dream. In words that the nation's founders and pioneers might have embraced, and that have now become part of the national vocabulary:
S??, se puede.
Yes, it can be done.
Off the topic: This is pretty cool. You can find out what languages are spoken where, etc.
http://www.mla.org/census_map
Post from BoingBoing about a translation of the anthem into Spanish from 1919, and Bush's previous willingness to sing the anthem in Espanol.
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/05/02/star_spanglish_banne.html