tookie has passed, are you still against death?
spaceghost
605 Posts
LA WEEKLY Time???s Up, Clarence[/b] Why the crowds aren???t shouting to spare an aged death-row inmate by MICHAEL KRIKORIAN Unless Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger???s recent motorcycle accident jarred him into a different mentality, a 75-year-old blind and feeble man will be pushed in his wheelchair into the death chamber at San Quentin and, on January 17, become the second man in five weeks to be executed at the infamous prison.And while the debate for clemency of the last man lethally injected at San Quentin, the notorious Westside Crips leader and later anti-gang spokesman and children???s book author Stanley ???Tookie??? Williams, made national headlines, little is being made of the impending death of Clarence Ray Allen.Part of the reason is Allen is not a charismatic leader of an infamous street gang, nor a symbol of redemption to many, nor a Nobel Peace Prize nominee, like Williams was. Another reason is that Allen, though old and weak, is in many ways the poster boy for death-penalty advocates. He gives them the single best reason to extort the virtues of the death penalty over a life sentence.While serving a life sentence at Folsom State Prison for a murder for hire in Fresno, he arranged for the killings of the witnesses in his case. His apparent rationale was that he would get a retrial and, boom, voil??, there would be no witnesses because they had all been mysteriously murdered. Not the brightest guy in the joint, this Allen.The tragedy starts in 1974. According to court documents, he enlisted the help of his son Roger and two employees to rob Fran???s Market, a store east of Fresno owned by Ray and Fran Schletewitz, whom Allen had known for years.Roger Allen invited the Schletewitz???s son, Bryon, to a party. While Bryon was swimming, someone took his keys. The Allen clan then robbed the store. Later, Roger???s 17-year-old girlfriend, Mary Sue Kitts, confessed to Bryon that she helped cash money orders stolen from the store. Bryon confronted Roger Allen, and also mentioned that Kitts had told him what happened.Clarence Ray Allen then ordered that Kitts be killed. She was strangled. When Bryon learned Kitts was missing, he went to the authorities.In 1977, a jury convicted Clarence Ray Allen of burglary, conspiracy and first-degree murder. He was sentenced to life without parole.In Folsom State Prison, Allen befriended fellow inmate Billy Ray Hamilton, who was soon to be paroled. Allen told him his plans to kill the witnesses, and arranged for Hamilton to be supplied with guns and $25,000.Not long after his release, Hamilton entered Fran???s Market, brandished a sawed-off shotgun and led Bryon Schletewitz and other employees into the stockroom as he searched for a safe. According to documents, Hamilton shot and killed Bryon Schletewitz, Douglas White, 18, and Josephine Rocha, 17. Hamilton also shot a 17-year-old clerk, who was left for dead but survived. A neighbor who heard the shotgun blasts went to investigate. Hamilton shot the neighbor, who then shot Hamilton. Days later, a wounded Hamilton was arrested while robbing a liquor store. Police found a list of names and information on eight people who had testified against Allen, including Bryon Schletewitz and his father, Ray Schletewitz.Both Allen and Hamilton were eventually convicted of the killings and sentenced to death row at San Quentin. They both have outlived the parents of Bryon Schletewitz. ???Bryon???s mom, Francis, she just went into shock,??? said Clayton Schletewitz, first cousin to Bryon???s father, Ray. ???She set up a shrine to Bryon. Her and Ray turned gray. They became reclusive. They just fell apart.???Francis died several years ago, but Ray hung on, propelled by the January 17 death date for the man who ordered the death of his son.???The only thing I???m living for is January 17,??? the 71-year-old Ray Schletewitz told his cousin Clayton about four months ago. He had planned on going to the death chamber to witness the execution.It was not to be. In fall 2005, while riding a bicycle, Ray Schletewitz was struck and killed by a car. ???He had expected to be there,??? said Clayton Schletewitz. ???I wasn???t going to go up there, but the only reason I would go would be to represent Ray and Francis.???Allen is the oldest inmate on death row in San Quentin. He would be the second-oldest inmate executed since the U.S. Supreme Court made capital punishment legal again in 1976, according to the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. The oldest was John Nixon, who was 77 when he died by lethal injection on December 14 for a 1985 Mississippi murder.And that???s basically the foundation for his attorney???s appeal for clemency.???He???s been reduced to an incapacitated old man, near death already,??? Allen???s appeals attorney, Michael Satris, told USA Today. ???To put him to death on top of that is beyond the borders of civilized behavior.???Bryon Schletewitz???s family doesn???t see it that way. ???If justice would have been done 25 years ago, if he was given the death sentence for his first murder, Bryon would be alive today and he would be the one who could have grown old,??? said Clayton Schletewitz, 71, a farmer and former Quaker minister. ???The administration of justice is so long in coming, it???s become an injustice. This whole thing has been outrageous. The death penalty doesn???t seem to be working because we really aren???t implementing it.???
Comments
Clarence Ray Allen out!
Hitler would have one day become old and feeble too. Living a long life as a cold blooded does not excuse you from your sentence. Repentence and helping society is the only redemption I think there is.
May he rot in hell
thats why I'm against the current death penalty. Too many appeals clogging up the system. Not saying that there aren't some innocent ones out there but its the ones that are guilty and just wasting the court & taxpayers time that piss me off. I wish they would just DNA test peoples and end the appeal process for those that are guilty of 1st degree without a shadow of doubt.
No one gave the victim a stay of exectuion
however, this guy already had a life sentence. already had his chance to live the rest of his life (granted in jail) and die when he was ready. but he is still able to reach outside the jail and kill some more people.
so what do you do?
the death penalty in my opinion is a black or white issue. either you are for it or against it. there is no ???well it is ok to kill this guy because he was particularly bad.???
i believe that it is a larger issue than the death penalty, it is an issued of the justice system and the penal system. i don???t know how to correct any of this. my guess is it starts with spending more on schools, less on jails. but im one of those dreamers that believes education can fix most problems.
Unfortunately DNA testing isn't quite as foolproof as the police/authorities would have us believe.
Although the possiblitiy of two people having the same match are 1 in a million or even greater,there is still a chance and this is not even taking into account that evidence can be contaminated accidentaly or with intent.
I feel if the state desires to take someones life that the evidence should be absolute and unquestionable.
I personally am against the death penalty.
I know a guy in his 30's that I used to work with when he was in his teens. Nicest guy in the world.....one of those "give you the shirt off his back" no bullshit guys......about 8 years ago he was hit by a drunk driver and is a quadrapelgic as a result. Can't do much although he does use a computer, listens to alot of music and is into sports....he has an amazing attitude and never seems to be "down"......looks forward to each day and is thankful for just being alive(at least on the surface)even though he never leaves his room and is attached to a modern "iron lung"-like device.
About 10 years ago there was a case here in the Dallas area where a guy killed his 11 year old stepdaughter after sexually abusing her for over 5 years with glass bottles and power tools. Even videotaped the shit. He avoided the Death Penalty by using the burial sites of two other children as his "free pass".
This perverted murderer, by his actions, has earned getting the BIG BAN....he needs to be killed....because for this guy to be able to wake up every day and live better than my paralyzed buddy is just wrong. For him to be able to wake up and live the same life as my totally innocent friend is an insult(imo). He gave up the right be a human and needs to get the ULTIMATE punishment for what he did.
I don't expect many of you to agree with me although I know at least a few of you do. I understand the argument of possibly executing an innocent man, and while I think our appeals system minimizes that possibility, I know it's not perfect. But nothing is. Flu shots kill more innocent people each year than are executed and no one suggests stopping them.
Don't really want to argue it any further than had already been done on the Tookie thread but I do appreciate you allowing me to give my above reasoning...even if you don't agree with it, maybe now you can respect it a little more??
Don't expect you to see it....it's my personal opinion based on personal experience and it's my way to justify/rationalize the Death Penalty....and he was a child murderer not to minimize this scum.
I agree with you.
But to me, the Death Penalty is not a black and white issue. It needs to be determined on a case by case basis. You can't just say "hey, you killed someone so you die".
For example:
A. A 19 year old drug addict robs a store. There's a scuffle and he shoots and kills the security guard.
He should not get the Death Penalty.
B. See Rockadelic's case above for the textbook definition as to why some people should die.
When I was in my early 20's I was against the Death Penalty.
One summer I went on a long road trip with my father and the topic came up. I told him how hypocritical it was and how no one has the right to take another person's life. Period.
Then he told me about a story about a girl who was raped, burned with acid, had both her arms cut off and was thrown out of a moving car on the freeway. The guy was out on parole.
As I've become more aware of the realities in this world, I've come to the conclusion (as bad as it may be) that some people don't belong on this Earth.
ill you have to consider the people who were killed? The guy who killed your best friend should die. The dude who killed the bums in Florida shouldn't die. The dude who killed your best friend because he was robbing the corner store and the gun went off by accident shouldn't die... Different gradients of murder and rape?
And therin lies the problem.
This is a very polarizing issue and by no means do I have the "right" answers.
But I believe there are cases that are cut and dry in their horror and maliciousness that make the issue of who should die easier to answer.
I think ultimately what we need to focus on in this country is intervention. So many young people make mistakes, get put in YA or jail and are basically thrown away and forgotten about. It's terrible and we as a society all suffer for it.
I guess I had some facts wrong (or my pops embellished a bit)
He was in prison from Oct. 9, 1978 to April 25, 1987 for the brutal attack of Mary Vincent: Singleton, picked up 15-year-old Mary Vincent in Berkeley and drove her to an isolated area a few miles west of Patterson and not far from Interstate 5. There he bludgeoned her, then raped her and then used a hatchet to chop off her arms just below the elbows. Then he dragged her down into a culvert, where he left her, apparently thinking she would die from the trauma he had just inflicted on her body. But she didn't die. She managed to get out of the culvert and started walking toward the distant noise of I-5 traffic, her bloody stumps hanging down from her shoulders. People in the first car that saw her were so horrified they turned around and fled. People in the second car stopped and got her to a hospital. Mary was able to give a description of her attacker and the vehicle was driving.
Singleton is arrested in Sparks; Nev. Oct. 9, 1978. In March 1979, a San Diego jury convicted Singleton of kidnapping, mayhem, attempted murder, forcible rape, sodomy and forced oral copulation. He received 14 years. He served only 8 years.[/b]
YOU decide....you should be taught that if you take a life, the penalty is death. And then if YOU decide to kill someone you should know what the penalty is. And if by some technicality or circumstance your life is spared you should consider yourself lucky....but I have no problem at all being the guy to decide that Mr. Rape My Stepdaughter With Power Tools And Then Kill Her gets to DIE....but ultimately it's YOUR responsibility.......don't commit murder.
Yes. But I'm afraid intervention won't stop it all either. I mean there is always going to be fucked up shit that makes absoloutely no sense even if we educate and try to intervene. There will be people that will refuse treatment.
Not everyone has the ability to do "redeeming" things in prison...a lot of people on death row are mentally disabled or psychologically disturbed.
And personally I think it's kind of sick to talk about someone doing "redeeming" acts, it doesn't change what they went to jail for and I don't think it should even enter the equation let alone determine whether someone lives or dies.
I've always been against the death penalty, and still am. Not sure how this is supposed to "test" my beliefs, I don't believe in becoming a bad guy in order to prevent the bad guys from doing bad things if that makes any sense.
What do you propose as an alternative?
Why should people who commit horrific crimes be spared?
I propose life in prison as an alternative.
They shouldn't be killed because no one has the right to take another person's life, and that includes the government. They shouldn't be killed because the US court system is flawed in too many ways to list and the fact that innocent people might've been executed in the name of justice (it's never been proven but come on the odds are pretty good that it's happened) makes me sick to my stomach.
And the ultimate punishment should be something worse than what any living innocent person should endure.
And that's death....swiftly and fairly.
What percentage of convicted murderers do you think are on Death Row???
"fairly" is a big word in there, and it's not anywhere as simple as you make it seem. Do mentally retarded people deserve death? Are charismatic, "redeemed" people like Tookie more deserving of life than others? What happens when you find out someone you execute was innocent? It's just an "oops!"??? What makes you (or anyone else) think it's their place to judge who lives and dies?
Life in solitary confinement.
I think for the majority of people you may as well kill them. Humans are social animals, to do that would drive them insane.