Yo, no one's answered my question. I understand the situation and the part race plays, but honestly, if he did in fact do what he suposedly did, why are people defending him? Does acts of right negate the wrongs of the past? I think they create the whole of a human being. Again, I don't think he should have died, but why are some of you mourning this man? I'm being fucking honest here, someone answer me...
A quote from Day. I wanted to take this to a different thread out of respect for peoples' opinions about the matter, an RIP thread, etc. I respect a person's rights to feel for someone and wish them well when they pass (however their passing occurs, unnatural or otherwise). Let's dispense with the death penalty discussions though. Seriously, why are headz on the board solemnly mourning the death of a murderer who failed to atone for his killings and founder of an organization that destroys lives, families, commits armed robberies, drivebys, etc? I understand that his work telling youth about the dangers and ills of being a gang member are quite exceptional and admirable, but does that nullify a man's deeds? Robbing and murdering are easy, being a good human being who respects other peoples' "right to be" is hard. If they had asked the families of the victims if he should live or die and they said he should live, then by all means, I feel his death sentence should be commuted. That was not the case though and no, I don't know if that option was explored. I would honestly like a civilized discussion as to why people are mourning the death of a man who (for all the evidence shown seems pretty damn sure to have done what he was convicted for doing) did despicable things?2 things struck me that have been repeated thoughts on my mind about this case. 1) Why do state and federal agencies continue to call them "correctional facilities?" Why not call them prisons and stick with it, because that is what they are. No one is getting rehabbed anymore, and if they are like Tookie supposedly was, their rehabilitation often comes out of an inner peace found by the fact that they are NEVER going to see the outside of a jail cell again. The Shawshank Redemption discussion of prisoners enjoying the safety of a familiar life in jail leading to inner peace and parole leading to disruption, discord and dissonance? 2) Think how many people in the United States would be unemployed if we didn't have a prison system that is uninterested in rehabilitating it's prison population. California alone has close to 50,000 people employed in the institution, parole and administration arms of its correctional facilities. I'm unsure if this includes all of the amenities, food and services needed to run a prison, but I'm leaning towards the fact that it does not account for that. Keep it civilized!PeaceT.N.
The_Non
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Really, a 180 degree turn-around from murderer to saint is an attractive story. Everyone wants to believe in that. I don't, really.
The thing about the Crips though is that at the point he departed they weren't huge and he probably didn't know that they would become huge. In that respect, you can't hold it against him, because for all he knew he was in a regular run of the mill dipshit gang.
The whole murdering four people thing... I'm with you on that.
If you're on death row, and in solitary for 6 years, WTF else are you going to do? Shit. Take an non-murdering person and stick them in solitary for 6 years and it's highly likely they'll come up with something worth something in all that time. IF they don't go nuts.
I don???t think we can get to a conversation about the morality of Tookie???s actions or the moral justification for subjecting his to capital punishment in the face this problem. Based on the a reasonable inference of the aforementioned there is, in the minds of many, reasonable doubt as to his guilt. Finally, capital punishment is irrevocable and any subsequent evidence about a person???s innocence will not be helpful once the state has killed him.
One final nit... the pundits are misusing the term ???cause celeb??? to mean ???a cause that celebrities advocate.??? It actually means ???a cause for which one is renounce.??? For example, among my friends, free jazz is my cause celeb.
I actually think it's more along the lines of "popular".
As far your meaning of it, you mean a cause for which one rejects or disclaims??? I don't understand.
In regards to your argument of criminal justice being retarded, as you said, they execute people all the time. This is an exceptional situation above and beyond just that... plenty of death row cases are "murky" without being as big an issue as this one (was).
i think that rather than mourning the man himself, the "average folk" are mourning over the fact that redemption is a lost cause... the fact that he turned his life around and tried to uses his status to change society for the better, should have been enough to spare his life. he may have done many more good things.
not saying his books should have gotten him a "get out of jail free card", by any means. however, killing the man did not make up for his crimes.
Peace and thanks.
T.N.
PS Thanx Blaz. Thoughts I had been thinking about as well, put succinctly.
this is a bad argument. the prison industry does not justify incarceration or execution.
are people born "bad" or does something make them "bad"? Maybe we should find the gene for "crime" and prescreen infants. Intervene real early. Maybe we should employ the prison industry (or the $ we put in it) for education, school lunch programs, and after school activities. hmmmm.
don't try so hard to come over my head. Your intellect weighs a ton.
What upset me more than anything is that you had this whole organized movement of celebrities and media savvy opportunists who made Tookie out to be some sort of victim,
while the people Tookie murdered in cold blood have no voices or celebrities to speak on their behalf.
There's just something about that which makes me physically ill.
And what's even more disgusting is how most people who've aligned themselves with Tookie and his "plight" have absolutely no idea what this man has done.
They tend to know little or nothing about his victims and the lives that he's forever destroyed as a result of his actions.
For example, I'm pretty confident that most of his supporters are unaware that his victim's families have been living in total fear for the last 26+ years.
The family members of Thsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang and Yee Chen Lin have, for fear of their lives, moved out of state, changed their identities and have refused to partake in any media interviews. All because of continued threats on their lives made by members of the Crips (threats which also extend to the families of Albert Owens).
As a result, the Yang family were also too shook to come to California to witness Tookie's execution.
Tookie himself meanwhile, had done nothing to try and intervene on their behalf, which would have surely been a sign of goodwill and at the very least would have leant some credence & credibility to his so-called "redemption" ("Redemption" that his supporters had so often loved to cite).
On another note, did anyone else think it was the ultimate
Owens and other family members broke down into tears.
You know, if she honestly feels that Tookie was innocent, fine.
Say that shit outside for the media.
Not in front of a woman who's stepson was murdered.
I almost wish Ms. Owens would've got up and slapped the shit out of that bitch.
Unfortunately she's got more class than that.
I think the reason this case became such a cause celebre is that Williams was eloquent and articulate enough to make a lot of 'thinking' people feel guilty. He didn't come across as a brutal menace to society in later years and if you didn't know his history then you might think he was simply a remorseful and intelligent man who was going to die the victim of a terrible injustice. People feel uneasy about executing folk who reflect their own values - it would have been easier if Williams had continued to act as the gang thug animal he built his original reputation on.
No RIP from me. Don't know enough about the guy or his case to make a valid judgement but the death penalty was not a good move.
cause celebre--a legal case that excites widespread interest
I hope this is some Swiftian satire here.
The reason I said it was a food for thought qs and to get at a key concept: America no longer rehabs its prison population, because it is not profitable to America's prison industrial complex to do so. Which is sad and should be rallied against, but won't be because the average American has a severe disdain for the incarcerated citizenry.
(except, of course, Pimp C)
anyways as food for thought, it works the other way too. imagine how many people wouldn't be in jail if unemployment wasn't so high.
I don't have to try
Alternatively, it can also mean a notorious person, thing, incident, or episode.
Refering to free jazz as your cause celebre doesn't work. Maybe it can be your cause celeb, but I'm not sure.
Don't you have to admit guilt first?
Again, I don't know all the details, but they had an AP article in the paper yesterday that said one of the witnesses testified in court that Tookie told him "you should of heard the sound he made when I shot him". Tookie then started growling and began laughing for 5 to 6 minutes in the courtroom.
I don't know man.
Forgiveness is something that must be asked for by a perpetrator. If a man who has committed an act of indiscretion not only 1)doesn't admit his guilt, but also 2)doesn't beg for forgiveness, then none should rightly be extended to him.
Important to note: I'm NOT talking about the death penalty here - just words and thoughts of interpersonal reconciliation.
For a person to be of a mindset that they WOULD extend a pardon - to someone who honestly begged for it - is commendable. But to forgive folks who unapologetically and cruelly murdered, say, your mother, is disrespectful to her legacy and smacks of escapism and denial on your part.
My guess is that in Williams' case - the books, the talks, all the work he's done since he's gone in - is viewed as an admission of wrong-doing and his way of asking to be forgiven.
I think this is not looking at the whole picture and is rather harsh - forgiveness is not just for the benefit of the person who did wrong. For some, it's the only way to get over it, to reconcile with themselves the horror and the sadness - to forgive can really help the person who has been hurt.
Legacy is not for the person who is gone, it's for the people who are left behind - why hang on to the memory of a loved one in anger? One can end up poisoning themselves and the memory.
I think forgive but not forget is a good tenet.
fuck, if you are trying to kill someone and use it as a deterrent. hang the motherfucker in front of the court as soon as the trial is over. don't be humanitarian over killing someone. don't be hypocritical.
after all is said and done i am anti death penalty.
But it's a gesture that is only demonstrative of an self-sustained action on the part of the wronged. It's a state of mind that is achieved either way. To be at peace is the desired effect for your sake, for their sake, and for society's sake. Regardless: either through active recollection, character change, or flashbacks, no one ever really forgets. That's a granted thing. The "forget" part in forgive and forget - it's a nice symbolic face to put on for your own psyche. Not that it's disingenuine.
I think the 'forget' part is not that literal. It doesn't simply mean don't let this slip your memory, but that one should also try to learn from what's happened and apply what they've learned. To relate it to another saying/cliche, I take the sentiment as being akin to "once bitten, twice shy".
I take issue with the idea that if someone forgives they are somehow disrespecting the life and death of the victim. If I was to be murdered tomorrow - I would not want anyone who loves me to stew in anger and direct their energy to hating and avenging, but to concentrate on the good things and getting on with healing.