This is kinda silly IMO. We are suppose to be heading into 2006. I mean, damn... At one time women in Japan weren't aloud to play male roles. I could care less if the actors were thai or even Indian. I'll wait to watch the film before I make judgements on anything.
Pedant... 'People', then... You the king of semantics?
I'm just saying... Sheesh... settle petal...
Anything that helps in conveying a world as authentically as possible is not a bad thing. Saying... Otherwise one would just stick to theatre or experimental art films.
Please to return to original topic: Casting Chinese chicks to play Japanese chicks in a movie...
This sounds like a possible factor:
(comment from a dude working in the film industry in tokyo, posted on my friend's site)
"The number of actresses in Japan who are beautiful, can act, and can speak English is almost 0, so casting all Japanese wasn't an option. They would've had to have made an entirely subtitled movie, which brings us back to the old debate about North Americans not wanting to watch subtitled movies on a wide scale (art house is fine). I don't think that's true, but producers are too afraid to test the waters with budgets as high as Sayuri's (around 100 million dollars!)"
There are several issues that this film raises, none of which necesarily means that the work itself is bad, or even lacking. I mean, hey, I love watching Orson Welles play Othello...and he was NOT of Moorish heitage. That's why I say, if you want to be a purist about mainstream entertainment representing historically and culturally, you are due for A LOT of disappointment.
She is of Chinese heritage as is approximately 25% of the overall population of that country; there are enough Japanese actresses around - is there any reason why any of 'em couldn't have been picked for these roles? Other than trying to CASH in on the name recognition of Zhang and Yeoh from 'Crouching...' and Li from being director Zhang Yimou's muse?
Please to return to original topic: Casting Chinese chicks to play Japanese chicks in a movie...
This sounds like a possible factor:
(comment from a dude working in the film industry in tokyo, posted on my friend's site)
"The number of actresses in Japan who are beautiful, can act, and can speak English is almost 0, so casting all Japanese wasn't an option. They would've had to have made an entirely subtitled movie, which brings us back to the old debate about North Americans not wanting to watch subtitled movies on a wide scale (art house is fine). I don't think that's true, but producers are too afraid to test the waters with budgets as high as Sayuri's (around 100 million dollars!)"
bottom line: hollywood production.
Gong Li + Ziyi Zhang -> English skills: stilted would be a compliment... See above for $$$ considerations...
Cassel is Jewish? I know he portrays a Frenchman of North African Jewish heritage in 'La haine' and his best friend is director/actor Matthieu Kassovitz ('La haine'/'Amelie'), who is of Jewish descent... But I don't think Cassel himself is; could be wrong tho'...
I don't think this is really that big of a deal given that the whole movie (and book it's based off of) is already. I mean, a book by a white guy about geishas (turned into a film no less) is about as interesting or novel as white dudes looking at Asian porn.
That said, there's a few layers to unstack here:
1) For American films set in America, cross-ethnic casting isn't any new or that controversial. Cross-racial Charlie Chan shit is one thing (i.e. white actors taping their eyelids on some yellow-face nonsense is bullshit) but otherwise, every Asian American actor I know has played some other Asian (other than their ethnicity) at some point or other. That's just the reality of having limited roles. Moreover, it's not like that many people complained with Coppola or Scorsece casted non-Italians in Italian roles or vice versa. We accept that as part of the fiction of storytelling as many pointed out, in many of these cases, it's the quality of the acting, not the casting, that makes the most important difference.
2) However, it's something else entirely when you have a film about Japanese culture, set in Japan, and ALL THREE OF THE LEADS go to non-Japanese actors. What you're basically saying is that you either didn't work hard enough or care hard enough to find AT LEAST ONE Japanese actress to play a lead. Considering that Japan has a fairly big movie industry, that seems pretty fucking strange to me. I don't buy the excuse that they couldn't find a Japanese actress who could speak English. Gong Li was never that fluent in English and she had to learn the language phonetically in order to play the part. What it came down to is that they wanted "name" Asian actresses and in the Western world, Gong Li, Ziyi Zhang and Michelle Yeoh are far, far better known than any equivalent Japanese actress.
Frankly, I think Hollywood was too chickenshit to subtitle this film - as it should have been. It's a fucked up day when Mel Gibson has the balls to make a film where everyone's speaking Aramaic (sp?) (and in his next film, I think everyone's speaking in pre-Columbian indigenous Mayan languages) but they don't dare make a film out of a best-selling book and actually have people speaking Japanese (let alone casting Japanese).
In any case, it'd be really weird if a film like, say, The Godfather had NO Italian Americans cast in the lead roles, though, if I recall, only Pacino and DeNiro, were right? Or if My Big Fat Greek Wedding was played by all French actors. I'm not saying that'd be racist. But it'd be a legitimate beef to say, "uh, that's kind of wrong."
3) For the record, Yeoh is Malaysian by nationality but Chinese by ethnicity which is pretty significant given that, in Malaysia, she wouldn't even be considered "really Malaysian" by the Malay majority. That's a whole 'nother story but Yeoh is pretty much identified as Chinese professionally-speaking. A small aside, but while I think Yeoh is awesome, her Mandarin was pretty wack in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" though not as bad as Chow Yun Fat. (The two actors are Cantonese-speaking).
4) The whole "Chinese people are mad at Ziyi for taking the role" - I get it on one level...there are a lot of Chinese hella pissed off at Japan for what Japan did to China during the first half of the 20th century. It's not really comparable to the Jewish experience under Nazism. Atrocities? Yes. Full scale genocide and destruction of heritage/culture? Not remotely close.
i want to know what the casting director was on and how i can get some. Maybe the fact that i grew up with a chinese family as nextdoor neighbors for 17 years, and 2 of my best freinds are veitnemese & thai respectively, means i have LEARNED the vast, vast difference in appearance within Asian races. But i have white freinds that seriously cant tell dick from looking at someone. I dated a philipino/english girl and i had one guy think she was brazillian. So aparently its not confined to mixing up Asian races, but just plain white-middle ignorance.
I mean, Ziyi Zhang can probably slip by. If you told me she was mixed i would buy that. And sacrificing the lead becuase you wanted a particular actors skills, thats ok. But the ensemble?
I hear you but dude, seriously, ethnic differences are pretty subtle amongst Asians. Most Asians can't tell Asians apart so I really get kind of eye-rolly when someone else wants to get on some Larry David, "wait, you're Vietnamese right? I knew it" shit.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad folks aren't on some, "you are all alike b/c you look alike" nonsense but on the other hand, do we all look alike? Yeah, sort of, kind of. I've been confused for Japanese...by CHINESE PEOPLE and my wife could pass for Chinese (and she's ethnically Japanese). My daughter is half of each and she's part of what will be a growing generation of intra-Asian ethnic kids who will be Korean/Chinese or Filipino/Thai or Japanese/Vietnamese and that'll just fuck up everyone's Asian-dar.
This said, none of the actresses in the movie "look Japanese" per se, but shit, put a pound of white pancake make-up on anyone and they'd "pass" for geisha.
i want to know what the casting director was on and how i can get some. Maybe the fact that i grew up with a chinese family as nextdoor neighbors for 17 years, and 2 of my best freinds are veitnemese & thai respectively, means i have LEARNED the vast, vast difference in appearance within Asian races. But i have white freinds that seriously cant tell dick from looking at someone. I dated a philipino/english girl and i had one guy think she was brazillian. So aparently its not confined to mixing up Asian races, but just plain white-middle ignorance.
I mean, Ziyi Zhang can probably slip by. If you told me she was mixed i would buy that. And sacrificing the lead becuase you wanted a particular actors skills, thats ok. But the ensemble?
But seriously... This to me is like getting pissed off that Antonio Banderas playing the part of an Italian. I wonder if people would have cared as much if it was Kim Yoon-jin (Who I believe was asked early on to play the part).
I mean, damn... She's Korean (Eventhough she was raised in NYC) and is trained in Peking Opera Dance and published a Japanese photobook and is a spokesperson for a Japanese cosmetics company.
Some people should maybe just come out and tell others where their place is in life.
I don't think it's worth boycotting the film over or anything but c'mon, you can allow for the fact that it's a little weird that you have:
A) A film set in Japan, B) About Japanese women C) About a very renown part of Japanese culture
D) Without a single Japanese woman cast in any of the THREE LEADS?
If there was only one lead, ok fine. But three?
We're not talking about one role, we're talking about ALL the major leads.
I don't understand why folks can't accept that this is rather suspect. I don't recommend anyone complain to the UN about it but jesus, it's a legit gripe.
In any case, like I said, I find the whole film suspect on principle but given that my sister-in-law (who is ethnically Japanese) is in it, I suppose I'll have to go watch.
But seriously... This to me is like getting pissed off that Antonio Banderas playing the part of an Italian. I wonder if people would have cared as much if it was Kim Yoon-jin (Who I believe was asked early on to play the part).
I mean, damn... She's Korean (Eventhough she was raised in NYC) and is trained in Peking Opera Dance and published a Japanese photobook and is a spokesperson for a Japanese cosmetics company.
Some people should maybe just come out and tell others where their place is in life.
I hear you but dude, seriously, ethnic differences are pretty subtle amongst Asians. Most Asians can't tell Asians apart so I really get kind of eye-rolly when someone else wants to get on some Larry David, "wait, you're Vietnamese right? I knew it" shit.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad folks aren't on some, "you are all alike b/c you look alike" nonsense but on the other hand, do we all look alike? Yeah, sort of, kind of. I've been confused for Japanese...by CHINESE PEOPLE and my wife could pass for Chinese (and she's ethnically Japanese). My daughter is half of each and she's part of what will be a growing generation of intra-Asian ethnic kids who will be Korean/Chinese or Filipino/Thai or Japanese/Vietnamese and that'll just fuck up everyone's Asian-dar.
This said, none of the actresses in the movie "look Japanese" per se, but shit, put a pound of white pancake make-up on anyone and they'd "pass" for geisha.
yeah for sure, and theres some people who just look nothing like you would expect by background. But i think its certainly a learning curve effected by exposure. One of my friends is Cherokee, but since in australia thats an anomally, she gets indian, egyptian, south american etc all the time. I don't think that would be the case in the US (well i would like to think it wouldnt anyway)
on a side note O, your daughter is hands down one of the cutest kids i have ever seen. You should make a book with those pics man!
But seriously... This to me is like getting pissed off that Antonio Banderas playing the part of an Italian. I wonder if people would have cared as much if it was Kim Yoon-jin (Who I believe was asked early on to play the part).
I mean, damn... She's Korean (Eventhough she was raised in NYC) and is trained in Peking Opera Dance and published a Japanese photobook and is a spokesperson for a Japanese cosmetics company.
Some people should maybe just come out and tell others where their place is in life.
B -
You know I got your back and all, but this is a sensitive issue for some folks, especially the Japanese - a lot of uninformed people outside of Japan tend to regard geisha as just high paid escorts/prostitutes and while that facet is/was indeed in certain instances, the role of the geisha in historical Japan is part and parcel of the cultural fabric...
Japan's a relatively xenophobic society as well (good or bad is contingent on your vantage point - ask Sheep for examples) - and the furor about casting non-Japanese in these roles is pretty much an affront to a lot of the population given the conventions there (e.g. prefecture is important, people born in Japan of Korean descent still need to carry alien registration cards)...
What I'm advancing here more than anything else is a little more awareness when it comes to issues as such - not everything elsewhere is viewed or opined from an American prism...
Oh, and the really real? The book and film were never meant to be big in Japan (BIJ). As long as white folk see it, that's all they care about.
But seriously... This to me is like getting pissed off that Antonio Banderas playing the part of an Italian. I wonder if people would have cared as much if it was Kim Yoon-jin (Who I believe was asked early on to play the part).
I mean, damn... She's Korean (Eventhough she was raised in NYC) and is trained in Peking Opera Dance and published a Japanese photobook and is a spokesperson for a Japanese cosmetics company.
Some people should maybe just come out and tell others where their place is in life.
B -
You know I got your back and all, but this is a sensitive issue for some folks, especially the Japanese - a lot of uninformed people outside of Japan tend to regard geisha as just high paid escorts/prostitutes and while that facet is/was indeed in certain instances, the role of the geisha in historical Japan is part and parcel of the cultural fabric...
Japan's a relatively xenophobic society as well (good or bad is contingent on your vantage point - ask Sheep for examples) - and the furor about casting non-Japanese in these roles is pretty much an affront to a lot of the population given the conventions there (e.g. prefecture is important, people born in Japan of Korean descent still need to carry alien registration cards)...
What I'm advancing here more than anything else is a little more awareness when it comes to issues as such - not everything elsewhere is viewed or opined from an American prism...
A small aside, but while I think Yeoh is awesome, her Mandarin was pretty wack in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" though not as bad as Chow Yun Fat. (The two actors are Cantonese-speaking).
4) The whole "Chinese people are mad at Ziyi for taking the role" - I get it on one level...there are a lot of Chinese hella pissed off at Japan for what Japan did to China during the first half of the 20th century. It's not really comparable to the Jewish experience under Nazism. Atrocities? Yes. Full scale genocide and destruction of heritage/culture? Not remotely close.
Dude, you're being kind - wack doesn't even come close; clumsy would also be diplomatically euphemistic...
As for the Chinese grudge against Japan, I don't know O - but older generations of my family are still sore as hell about Nanking and Manchuria... Like in yesterday angry... And this doesn't even take into account my grandfather being interned and tortured by the Japanese in Malaysia...
I don't think it's worth boycotting the film over or anything but c'mon, you can allow for the fact that it's a little weird that you have:
A) A film set in Japan, B) About Japanese women C) About a very renown part of Japanese culture
D) Without a single Japanese woman cast in any of the THREE LEADS?
If there was only one lead, ok fine. But three?
We're not talking about one role, we're talking about ALL the major leads.
I don't understand why folks can't accept that this is rather suspect. I don't recommend anyone complain to the UN about it but jesus, it's a legit gripe.
In any case, like I said, I find the whole film suspect on principle but given that my sister-in-law (who is ethnically Japanese) is in it, I suppose I'll have to go watch.
But seriously... This to me is like getting pissed off that Antonio Banderas playing the part of an Italian. I wonder if people would have cared as much if it was Kim Yoon-jin (Who I believe was asked early on to play the part).
I mean, damn... She's Korean (Eventhough she was raised in NYC) and is trained in Peking Opera Dance and published a Japanese photobook and is a spokesperson for a Japanese cosmetics company.
Some people should maybe just come out and tell others where their place is in life.
Thats just the thing. You haven't even seen the movie yet... And already you are casting your opinion.
But what would have made you happy? Hollywood taking the story and setting it in America in modern day and casting all white people? Would that have been any better?
Bollywood is the biggest film industry in the world. Is Jane Austen or anyone (insert whatever here) upset at who they put in the lead parts? No
I don't think it's worth boycotting the film over or anything but c'mon, you can allow for the fact that it's a little weird that you have:
A) A film set in Japan, B) About Japanese women C) About a very renown part of Japanese culture
D) Without a single Japanese woman cast in any of the THREE LEADS?
If there was only one lead, ok fine. But three?
We're not talking about one role, we're talking about ALL the major leads.
I guess the point is, why would they go out of their way to do this? I can't really see what the purpose would be. It's not like they cast white people in blackface.
Most likely they chose whoever they thought would bring in the most bank. Is it really necessary that actors roles and their heritage line up? I don't think so.
If you could make a logical point why this would be such a conspiracy that would benefit Hollywood I would bite, but I just don't see it. Honestly, if it's for an American audience they could cast just about anybody with traditional "Asian" features and 99% wouldn't know the difference.
But what would have made you happy? Hollywood taking the story and setting it in America in modern day and casting all white people? Would that have been any better?
Bollywood is the biggest film industry in the world. Is Jane Austen or anyone (insert whatever here) upset at who they put in the lead parts? No
So much for bringing down walls...
I think O would applaud a Hollywood production w/ Japanese actresses in the leads is all... As for Bollywood - anecdote: travelling through India demonstrated to me that North America other than Punjabi enclaves here and there is pretty much ignorant to the overall range of product that emerges from the subcontinent - seeing a Bollywood action film in an older movie theater in the middle of the arid and desert-like state of Rajasthan w/ families all around: priceless... The story I think you're citing was pretty much transposed to an Indian setting (plot was malleable) - whereas '... Geisha' is still set in Japan, drawing upon a Japanese tradition...
Also, if anyone is looking for Hollywood to keep (it real) anything cultural or a historically correct, ur gonna have to throw out 95% of the films made.
I'm not saying that it's not a legitimate gripe for Chinese people to be angry at Chinese actresses taking Japanese leads. My point is that someone else was trying to make the comparison between China:Japan = Jews:Nazis and I'm sorry but that's just not a fair analogy. If anything, that kind of glib "all atrocities = each other" is ahistorical to the point of doing violence to history itself.
Did China suffer under Japan? Yeah, absolutely. But were tens of millions of Chinese rounded up and executed in an attempt to EXTERMINATE CHINESE SOCIETY/CULTURE? No.
All I'm asking for is some perspective. Japan's wartime atrocities in China do not equal the Holocaust. That doesn't diminish the suffering of Chinese under Japan but they're apples and oranges. And just for the record, my grandfather lost most of his siblings to the Japanese in the 1940s so yeah, I know the human cost involved. But then again, under Mao's misguided leadership, something between 10-20,000,000 Chinese died which far, far outstrips the number who died during WWII.
The issue here isn't over the quality of the movie - it has to do with the politics of casting and if you can't separte the two, I'm not sure we're even having the same conversation.
I don't even get the Bollywood analogy you're pushing here. What are you saying?
I don't think it's worth boycotting the film over or anything but c'mon, you can allow for the fact that it's a little weird that you have:
A) A film set in Japan, B) About Japanese women C) About a very renown part of Japanese culture
D) Without a single Japanese woman cast in any of the THREE LEADS?
If there was only one lead, ok fine. But three?
We're not talking about one role, we're talking about ALL the major leads.
I don't understand why folks can't accept that this is rather suspect. I don't recommend anyone complain to the UN about it but jesus, it's a legit gripe.
In any case, like I said, I find the whole film suspect on principle but given that my sister-in-law (who is ethnically Japanese) is in it, I suppose I'll have to go watch.
But seriously... This to me is like getting pissed off that Antonio Banderas playing the part of an Italian. I wonder if people would have cared as much if it was Kim Yoon-jin (Who I believe was asked early on to play the part).
I mean, damn... She's Korean (Eventhough she was raised in NYC) and is trained in Peking Opera Dance and published a Japanese photobook and is a spokesperson for a Japanese cosmetics company.
Some people should maybe just come out and tell others where their place is in life.
Thats just the thing. You haven't even seen the movie yet... And already you are casting your opinion.
But what would have made you happy? Hollywood taking the story and setting it in America in modern day and casting all white people? Would that have been any better?
Bollywood is the biggest film industry in the world. Is Jane Austen or anyone (insert whatever here) upset at who they put in the lead parts? No
A small aside, but while I think Yeoh is awesome, her Mandarin was pretty wack in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" though not as bad as Chow Yun Fat. (The two actors are Cantonese-speaking).
wait dude, I thought you said you can't even speak any cantonese or mandarin at all.....
A small aside, but while I think Yeoh is awesome, her Mandarin was pretty wack in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" though not as bad as Chow Yun Fat. (The two actors are Cantonese-speaking).
wait dude, I thought you said you can't even speak any cantonese or mandarin at all.....
I have a basic understanding in Mandarin, enough to know that when a non-Mandarin speaker sounds lousy speaking it. But hey, my Cantonese sucks (I took lessons) so it's all wavy gravy.
But then again, under Mao's misguided leadership, something between 10-20,000,000 Chinese died which far, far outstrips the number who died during WWII.
O -
I'd also advocate for a little more sophistication when it comes to details of differing atrocities; just wanted to point out that it's still a source of much tension... I'd expound on Mao, but time constraints beckon...
But then again, under Mao's misguided leadership, something between 10-20,000,000 Chinese died which far, far outstrips the number who died during WWII.
O -
I'd also advocate for a little more sophistication when it comes to details of differing atrocities; just wanted to point out that it's still a source of much tension... I'd expound on Mao, but time constraints beckon...
Comments
I'm just saying... Sheesh... settle petal...
Anything that helps in conveying a world as authentically as possible is not a bad thing. Saying...
Otherwise one would just stick to theatre or experimental art films.
This sounds like a possible factor:
(comment from a dude working in the film industry in tokyo, posted on my friend's site)
"The number of actresses in Japan who are beautiful, can act, and can speak English is almost 0, so casting all Japanese wasn't an option. They would've had to have made an entirely subtitled movie, which brings us back to the old debate about North Americans not wanting to watch subtitled movies on a wide scale (art house is fine). I don't think that's true, but producers are too afraid to test the waters with budgets as high as Sayuri's (around 100 million dollars!)"
bottom line: hollywood production.
She is of Chinese heritage as is approximately 25% of the overall population of that country; there are enough Japanese actresses around - is there any reason why any of 'em couldn't have been picked for these roles? Other than trying to CASH in on the name recognition of Zhang and Yeoh from 'Crouching...' and Li from being director Zhang Yimou's muse?
Gong Li + Ziyi Zhang -> English skills: stilted would be a compliment... See above for $$$ considerations...
Cassel is Jewish? I know he portrays a Frenchman of North African Jewish heritage in 'La haine' and his best friend is director/actor Matthieu Kassovitz ('La haine'/'Amelie'), who is of Jewish descent... But I don't think Cassel himself is; could be wrong tho'...
That said, there's a few layers to unstack here:
1) For American films set in America, cross-ethnic casting isn't any new or that controversial. Cross-racial Charlie Chan shit is one thing (i.e. white actors taping their eyelids on some yellow-face nonsense is bullshit) but otherwise, every Asian American actor I know has played some other Asian (other than their ethnicity) at some point or other. That's just the reality of having limited roles. Moreover, it's not like that many people complained with Coppola or Scorsece casted non-Italians in Italian roles or vice versa. We accept that as part of the fiction of storytelling as many pointed out, in many of these cases, it's the quality of the acting, not the casting, that makes the most important difference.
2) However, it's something else entirely when you have a film about Japanese culture, set in Japan, and ALL THREE OF THE LEADS go to non-Japanese actors. What you're basically saying is that you either didn't work hard enough or care hard enough to find AT LEAST ONE Japanese actress to play a lead. Considering that Japan has a fairly big movie industry, that seems pretty fucking strange to me. I don't buy the excuse that they couldn't find a Japanese actress who could speak English. Gong Li was never that fluent in English and she had to learn the language phonetically in order to play the part. What it came down to is that they wanted "name" Asian actresses and in the Western world, Gong Li, Ziyi Zhang and Michelle Yeoh are far, far better known than any equivalent Japanese actress.
Frankly, I think Hollywood was too chickenshit to subtitle this film - as it should have been. It's a fucked up day when Mel Gibson has the balls to make a film where everyone's speaking Aramaic (sp?) (and in his next film, I think everyone's speaking in pre-Columbian indigenous Mayan languages) but they don't dare make a film out of a best-selling book and actually have people speaking Japanese (let alone casting Japanese).
In any case, it'd be really weird if a film like, say, The Godfather had NO Italian Americans cast in the lead roles, though, if I recall, only Pacino and DeNiro, were right? Or if My Big Fat Greek Wedding was played by all French actors. I'm not saying that'd be racist. But it'd be a legitimate beef to say, "uh, that's kind of wrong."
3) For the record, Yeoh is Malaysian by nationality but Chinese by ethnicity which is pretty significant given that, in Malaysia, she wouldn't even be considered "really Malaysian" by the Malay majority. That's a whole 'nother story but Yeoh is pretty much identified as Chinese professionally-speaking. A small aside, but while I think Yeoh is awesome, her Mandarin was pretty wack in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" though not as bad as Chow Yun Fat. (The two actors are Cantonese-speaking).
4) The whole "Chinese people are mad at Ziyi for taking the role" - I get it on one level...there are a lot of Chinese hella pissed off at Japan for what Japan did to China during the first half of the 20th century. It's not really comparable to the Jewish experience under Nazism. Atrocities? Yes. Full scale genocide and destruction of heritage/culture? Not remotely close.
I mean, Ziyi Zhang can probably slip by. If you told me she was mixed i would buy that. And sacrificing the lead becuase you wanted a particular actors skills, thats ok. But the ensemble?
def
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad folks aren't on some, "you are all alike b/c you look alike" nonsense but on the other hand, do we all look alike? Yeah, sort of, kind of. I've been confused for Japanese...by CHINESE PEOPLE and my wife could pass for Chinese (and she's ethnically Japanese). My daughter is half of each and she's part of what will be a growing generation of intra-Asian ethnic kids who will be Korean/Chinese or Filipino/Thai or Japanese/Vietnamese and that'll just fuck up everyone's Asian-dar.
This said, none of the actresses in the movie "look Japanese" per se, but shit, put a pound of white pancake make-up on anyone and they'd "pass" for geisha.
I mean, damn... She's Korean (Eventhough she was raised in NYC) and is trained in Peking Opera Dance and published a Japanese photobook and is a spokesperson for a Japanese cosmetics company.
Some people should maybe just come out and tell others where their place is in life.
A) A film set in Japan,
B) About Japanese women
C) About a very renown part of Japanese culture
D) Without a single Japanese woman cast in any of the THREE LEADS?
If there was only one lead, ok fine. But three?
We're not talking about one role, we're talking about ALL the major leads.
I don't understand why folks can't accept that this is rather suspect. I don't recommend anyone complain to the UN about it but jesus, it's a legit gripe.
In any case, like I said, I find the whole film suspect on principle but given that my sister-in-law (who is ethnically Japanese) is in it, I suppose I'll have to go watch.
yeah for sure, and theres some people who just look nothing like you would expect by background. But i think its certainly a learning curve effected by exposure. One of my friends is Cherokee, but since in australia thats an anomally, she gets indian, egyptian, south american etc all the time. I don't think that would be the case in the US (well i would like to think it wouldnt anyway)
on a side note O, your daughter is hands down one of the cutest kids i have ever seen. You should make a book with those pics man!
B -
You know I got your back and all, but this is a sensitive issue for some folks, especially the Japanese - a lot of uninformed people outside of Japan tend to regard geisha as just high paid escorts/prostitutes and while that facet is/was indeed in certain instances, the role of the geisha in historical Japan is part and parcel of the cultural fabric...
Japan's a relatively xenophobic society as well (good or bad is contingent on your vantage point - ask Sheep for examples) - and the furor about casting non-Japanese in these roles is pretty much an affront to a lot of the population given the conventions there (e.g. prefecture is important, people born in Japan of Korean descent still need to carry alien registration cards)...
What I'm advancing here more than anything else is a little more awareness when it comes to issues as such - not everything elsewhere is viewed or opined from an American prism...
Dude, you're being kind - wack doesn't even come close; clumsy would also be diplomatically euphemistic...
As for the Chinese grudge against Japan, I don't know O - but older generations of my family are still sore as hell about Nanking and Manchuria... Like in yesterday angry... And this doesn't even take into account my grandfather being interned and tortured by the Japanese in Malaysia...
Did you get mad that Mike Meyers is Canadian and not British when he was in Austin Powers?
Or that Mel Gibson is Australian playing a US cop in Die Hard?
On and on. Acting homes.
Myers is actually pretty proud of his Liverpudlian heritage - family/dad is from there so...
Thats just the thing. You haven't even seen the movie yet... And already you are casting your opinion.
But what would have made you happy? Hollywood taking the story and setting it in America in modern day and casting all white people? Would that have been any better?
Bollywood is the biggest film industry in the world. Is Jane Austen or anyone (insert whatever here) upset at who they put in the lead parts? No
So much for bringing down walls...
I guess the point is, why would they go out of their way to do this? I can't really see what the purpose would be. It's not like they cast white people in blackface.
Most likely they chose whoever they thought would bring in the most bank. Is it really necessary that actors roles and their heritage line up? I don't think so.
If you could make a logical point why this would be such a conspiracy that would benefit Hollywood I would bite, but I just don't see it. Honestly, if it's for an American audience they could cast just about anybody with traditional "Asian" features and 99% wouldn't know the difference.
I think O would applaud a Hollywood production w/ Japanese actresses in the leads is all... As for Bollywood - anecdote: travelling through India demonstrated to me that North America other than Punjabi enclaves here and there is pretty much ignorant to the overall range of product that emerges from the subcontinent - seeing a Bollywood action film in an older movie theater in the middle of the arid and desert-like state of Rajasthan w/ families all around: priceless... The story I think you're citing was pretty much transposed to an Indian setting (plot was malleable) - whereas '... Geisha' is still set in Japan, drawing upon a Japanese tradition...
I'm not saying that it's not a legitimate gripe for Chinese people to be angry at Chinese actresses taking Japanese leads. My point is that someone else was trying to make the comparison between China:Japan = Jews:Nazis and I'm sorry but that's just not a fair analogy. If anything, that kind of glib "all atrocities = each other" is ahistorical to the point of doing violence to history itself.
Did China suffer under Japan? Yeah, absolutely. But were tens of millions of Chinese rounded up and executed in an attempt to EXTERMINATE CHINESE SOCIETY/CULTURE? No.
All I'm asking for is some perspective. Japan's wartime atrocities in China do not equal the Holocaust. That doesn't diminish the suffering of Chinese under Japan but they're apples and oranges. And just for the record, my grandfather lost most of his siblings to the Japanese in the 1940s so yeah, I know the human cost involved. But then again, under Mao's misguided leadership, something between 10-20,000,000 Chinese died which far, far outstrips the number who died during WWII.
The issue here isn't over the quality of the movie - it has to do with the politics of casting and if you can't separte the two, I'm not sure we're even having the same conversation.
I don't even get the Bollywood analogy you're pushing here. What are you saying?
wait dude, I thought you said you can't even speak any cantonese or mandarin at all.....
my landlord just heard me blasting laura nyro and labelle - wind
and called me a pimp
lol
I have a basic understanding in Mandarin, enough to know that when a non-Mandarin speaker sounds lousy speaking it. But hey, my Cantonese sucks (I took lessons) so it's all wavy gravy.
O -
I'd also advocate for a little more sophistication when it comes to details of differing atrocities; just wanted to point out that it's still a source of much tension... I'd expound on Mao, but time constraints beckon...
M**k -
Phonetics, it's all phonetics... Lol...
See, in sonning me, you've also made my point.