The end of Sugarhill records
Yemsky
710 Posts
In Waxpoetics #14 Greg Wilson reviews some records in the 12x12 section and writes about Grandmaster & Melle Mel's "White Lines":
Is this a correct summary of the end of Sugarhill (and 99 for that matter)?It wasn't until a few months later that I became aware the backing track was a re-recording of Liquid Liquid's "Cavern" with the problem being that its original writers weren'r credited, prompting a legal battle that would result in the demise of both Sugarhill and the influencial No Wave label, 99, for whom Liquid Liquid recorded
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I'm looking at the booklet for The Sugar Hill Records Story[/b] box set on Rhino, and it does establish that "White Lines" was their last big hit, although "We Don't Work For Free" and "Step Off" charted a bit after that, plus you also had Melle Mel doing his thing for awhile on the label as well ("Pump Me Up"). The label went on for at least three more years, and tried to get a distribution deal with MCA Records, which didn't quite work for them. I also think there was a lawsuit from the other Sugar Hill label, the ones which released country and bluegrass for years.
So consider that, along with Grandmaster Flash moving to Elektra, the rise of Run-DMC and eventually Def Jam, and Sugar Hill had no way of surviving. To me, it seems the formula that Sylvia Robinson found was kept for as long as possible, and in many ways she tapped into what she assumed was a trend. It's almost as if they did not have a plan for the possibility of changes, but one also has to consider that everything happening in rap music was new. The fall of Sugar Hill should have meant the end of the music, but then came 1984 and two important movies: Breakin'[/b] and Beat Street[/b], with Beat Street[/b] featuring a lot of Sugar Hill alumni. No one knew what was happening, and that could have easily saved Sugar Hill's ass. It didn't, and the label forever became stuck in time, yet providing some very important records.
Tommy Boy Records were also more in-tune with what was happening at the moment, while Sugar Hill would fall in the "one-step-behind" pattern. One can argue about authenticity between Afrika Bambaataa and the Sugar Hill Gang, and that being a primary reason behind Sugar Hill's downfall. With every "Pack Jam" there was a "Scorpio", so it went back and forth, but Sugar Hill would eventually find it hard to compete.
One might say it was karma.
For some reason I find it hard to believe that "We Don't Work For Free" charted higher than ANYTHING, let alone "White Lines".
That's how I felt, but the booklet says it went as high as #51. "White Lines" was #47, "Step Off" was #48. Last charting record for the label was "Ain't That Much Love In The World" by The Givens Family, at #74.
EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. I worded it wrong. It has been corrected.
Yes.
The legal battle over credit & compensation for Liquid Liquid/99 resulted in the eventual judgement against Sugarhill, at which point they declared bankrupcy and sold the company (back to themselves, now as Uni). Ed Bahlman (who was 99 records) became exhausted and reclusive and eventually stopped putting out records, also as a result of the trial.
Very short version of a pretty lengthy story fleshed in a mag called Tuba Frenzy several years ago... looks like they're planning on digitizing it soon.
you summarise a lot of important factors (no vision for the label, loosing the edge to DefJam, Tommy Boy, loosing artists to other labels) which I would also have mentioned as crucial to their downfall. But especially the fact that the label continued to exist for years after White Lines and (during that time ?) even bought catalogues like Chess made me wonder whether the downfall was in the end really down to this one law suit, especially if it also killed 99. Was it really only the lawyers who were laughing all the way to the bank?
Paul,
Like your avatar. Only heard some samples of your Muro collaboration so far. Nice one.
Even so. That is just shocking.
For "White Lines" & "We Don't Work For Free (??!!!!)" to chart within 4 positions?? That's insane.
I don't remember ANYBODY EVER playing "We Don't Work For Free". I always thought it was a throwaway cut.
And "White Lines" was HUGE!!!!
And btw, excellent observations re: Sugar Hill's last days. That took me back.
I think the last couple of Sugar Hill singles I ever bought were "Mosquito" by West Street Mob and "Feel It"
by Funky Four w/Whiz Kid.
Then they just started putting out constant crap like that Jesse Jackson rap.
"Let's talk about Jesse!, errrrrrRRRRAAHHH!!!"
Thanks. Muro-san put me on definite blast with his mix though!
I REALLY wanted to do mine over!
And that's just the R&B charts. The only one that charted pop was White Lines at #101. It goes to show how NY centric rap was. It also shows how out of touch Billboard and retailers were.
This is before sound scan. Remember when sound scan came in all the sudden the charts were dominated by rap, country and oldies, which were rarely on the pop charts previously. Billboard quickly made a separate chart for the oldies where Dark Side Of The Moon, Eagles Greatest Hits and Bat Out Of Hell are likely still in the top 5. Today we take it for granted that the top 10 is filled with rap, country and manufactured stars.
Back in the day promotors would ask retailers to tell billboard that certain records were selling. In exchange retailers would get promo items and other considerations. R&B and country were tracked on seperate charts. Oldies were not tracked at all.
Today the charts are unfairly scewed because the largest soundscan reported is Mall~Wart. WalMart refuse to stock many popular artists. Country artists tend to sell better at WalMart than at real record stores. Hip Hop, blues, punk and other styles that sell mostly at small independent stores are undercounted, as most of those stores do not report to soundscan.
Dan
Please do not cry for Sylvia Robinson. While Sugarhill was up and running she made lots of $$$. She bought Chess for almost nothing, (the idiots who owned it at the time did not know it had any value
With the Chess catalog in hand she was able to get the big $$ when she sold to MCA.
I think she already had Stang and related labels when she signed GMF&F5. The story I heard her tell was she was working A&R for A&M and tried to get A&M to sign GMF&F5. When A&M passed she put them out on Sugarhill. I have heard lots of other tellings that did not include A&M.
What do you say John Book?
Dan
PS Don't cry for Herb and Jerry, they made lots of $$$ too.
I don't know. I know nothing about him or the history of 99 beyond what is in this thread.
We should all cry for the music. The music would be better off with out all the sharks who battle for control.
Dan
What's the old music industry adage?
The artist don't know shit about the business and the business don't know shit about the art.
Or something like that.
i have been in contact with the robinson fam. they own quite a catalogue, all platinum, stang,turbo,vibration,chess,sugarhill....rojac, some gsf i think as well
unreleased whatnauts, rimshots, etc. last i spoke to k def, he was sorting thru masters.
$$ rich no doubt.
Own? I thought they sold to MCA? Did they only do a lease/distribution deal with MCA?
Not sure about the Grandmaster Flash story. But you are right about the Chess thing, because Chess became a big mess when Marshall Chess went to work for the Rolling Stones, thus resulting in the labels' demise as a label with new artists. I mean, we want Colonel Bagshot now because of DJ Shadow, but not too many people cared for it then.
I am sure she obtained Chess through some of the distribution deals she had with the labels she released music on. Plus with a hand in publishing (All Platinum, I believe), I think she made an impression on those whom she seeked to impress. By the time she obtained Chess, disco was king and "that blues shit" was probably not of interest to anyone. That is, anyone but the European and Japanese collectors who came to the U.S. and knew that sooner or later, people would come back to the music.
Fortunately, Andy McKaie was someone who had faith in the Chess catalog and helped in bringing the music to MCA's reissue division, which I believe came when a little California label named Rhino was making a name for themselves with their reissues and compilations.
It wouldn't surprise me about the A&M story, but how much of a success would they have been?
If this is true (and I'm not doubting you), I am surprised that they have yet to exploit this catalog, via reissues, placement on television and movies, putting it on oldies radio, etc? I would like to see a properly mastered Rimshots reissue. Or a good, Rojac 2CD compilation (or a series of compilations). Maybe it's in the works, maybe they're tapping into boards and seeing if there's any interest.
I think Sequel in the UK has released some of this stuff.
Thanks for the info. I mistyped. I meant to type Sugarhill Gang, the group the label was started for, not GMF&F5.
I bought lots of Sugarhill distributed Chess records at the time. The MCA vinyl pressings were some of the worse reissues ever done.
Dan
I probably believe the non-A&M version. All Platinum (Sylvia's previous label) wasn't gone very long when she started up Sugar Hill, so that had to be the shortest-lived A&R position in the history of history, if it really happened.
Joe & Sylvia Robinson meant well, but their Chess represses were straight from the shithouse. When they had All Platinum, they were reissuing older Chess albums with black and white covers. The Sugarhill/Chess LP's were marginally better, but it took MCA to really coordinate the whole program, with good sound (no fake stereo) and better sleeve designs.
Q: As far I know, there was a struggle between 99 recs and Sugarhill because of Optimo sample's in Grandmaster Flash song's White Lines. What's happened?
A: I knew you would get around to asking me about that. First, the song you're referring to is called "Cavern", my bassline was taken and used for "White Lines". (There is another song of ours called Optimo , it's the first track on the "Noise NY" CD.) I guess My initial reaction was that I was flattered we were already fans of Grandmaster Flash's. It got complicated very quickly. Sugarhill were already notorious for being evil, with rumors of Mob ties. I remember Ed (Bahlman, our producer and the head of 99 Records) telling me that Sugarhill called him and said they would be sending a car over to pick him up and they would " take a drive and talk about it" so Mafia like! It eventually led to a lawsuit which we won and then Sugarhill filled for bankruptcy so we never collected. Our label was exhausted financially by the experience and never recovered. A settlement only happened years later after. A DJ friend told me that Duran Duran had just covered White Lines and was about to release it that I hired a lawyer and went after THEM, which made the whole thing come to a head and everyone had to be brought to the table. An out of court deal was cut and we are all much more happy now. The song really refuses to die, it's gone on to be used in films and is on countless compilations. It's a bona fide Hip Hop classic and I'm proud of it, and the bassline continues to be sampled which continually amazes me!
FULL INTERVIEW: http://www.scaruffi.com/interv/liquid.html
Also, from the website of Glasgow club night 'Optimo':
This record (99 - 11 - Liquid Liquid - Optimo / Cavern / Scraper / Out. 12" 1983) is what ultimately destroyed 99 Records. This EP was Liquid Liquid's most accomplished recording so far and 'Optimo' and 'Cavern' became big club hits. 'Cavern' became a huge hit in the newly developing hip hop scene and the 99 shop was inundated with people looking for the record with THAT bassline. It would go on to sell almost 30 000 copies. At this point in time, sampling was a very new phenomenon and no one was really sure what the legal situation was with regards to sampling other people's records. 'Cavern' was such a big hit around New York that summer that it wasn't long before Sugarhill Records, the first label to commercially exploit hip hop, appropriated the bassline for the backing to Grand Master Flash's 'White Lines'. As they were fans, initially Liquid Liquid were delighted that Flash had used 'Cavern' but when it became a global hit their attitude changed somewhat. Ed in particular was outraged and contacted Sugarhill to try and get payment. Sugarhill hadn't actually sampled 'Cavern' but had got The Sugarhill Band (who would ironically later become Tackhead, the biggest band on his friend Adrian Sherwood's On U Sound label) to replay the bassline and also appropriated other elements of the song, right down to Sal's words (Sal's "slip in and out out of phenomena" was changed to "something like a phenomenon"). This was when the nightmare began.
Sugarhill were renowned for shady business practices. The raps on their first hit release 'Rappers Delight' were stolen from other rappers and they weren't known for paying out to anyone. Various stories have been told that indicate Ed was threatened and there are tales of Bahlman being 'taken for a ride in a car', Sugarhill people intimidating employees and customers at the 99 store and vague mentions of Mafia involvement. Nevertheless, despite intimidation, Bahlman pursued this through legal channels and eventually it came to court. In a case that would set precedents with regard to sampling law, the judge ruled in favour of 99 and Sugarhill were ordered to pay out. Unfortunately, partly due to their shady business practices, Sugarhill didn't have the money to pay and filed for bankruptcy. This was the final straw for Ed who had put all his energy and money into the case and by all accounts was now a broken man. He decided to get out of the music business and urged all the artists on 99 to do the same. Unfortunately, when Ed left the music business he also left ESG and Liquid Liquid somewhat in the lurch as they had no contracts with him and the rights to their records would remain in limbo for years. As Liquid Liquid were on the verge of imploding anyway, this wasn't too much of a problem for them but it would cause huge problems for ESG in the years that followed. To this day Ed still fiercely guards the master tapes to all the 99 releases that he regards as his.
The story doesn't quite end there. Some years later a dj friend of Richard McGuire's informed him that Duran Duran had covered 'White Lines' so McGuire hired a lawyer and went after them. An out of court settlement was agreed upon with Duran's lawyers and the Liquids finally got their payment. By this time Ed was long gone and it's not even known whether he is even aware that justice was finally served. 'Cavern' has gone on to become a bona fide hip hop classic and has been used in several films. That bassline is possibly one of the most famous and instantly recognisable in the history of music. For someone who never really considered himself that much of a musician, this is a fact that to this day amazes McGuire.
FULL PIECE ON 99 RECORDS: http://www.optimo.co.uk/99.html
Also- I believe Sugarhill called Bahlman up as soon as "Cavern" came out, asking if they could do their own version... and he said no. Almost immediately afterword he heard "White Lines" on the radio...