OK, yes producers are supposed to disclose the sample. I was not clear, I meant that if the label doesn't ask about it or build it into the contract then it is not the producer's responsibility at that point. Although I'm sure the label would throw that back on the producer in question....
That said, I don't think Kanye was trying to get over. A dude of that stature just deals with clearance like regular BI. Hence my confusion.................
Also many times a label and/or group will place into the contract a non-indemnify(is that the right term?) clause in their deal. I know that evidence was popped for a sample on the linkin park reanimation album. He signed a contract that said there would be no samples.
i don't see how you "fucked up." it doesn't take an ethicist to see that what you did was just. what is this, some kind of "honor among thieves" bullshit? how lame. seriously, i don't get it. what i suspect is going on here is that you were justifiably proud of yourself, and rather than write something along the lines of "look at me! i am truly the superman of sample-spotting, and i have now exposed another injustice and ensured that some struggling artists will get paid for their work by the more successful artists who have ripped them off," you decided you'd look better, or appear to be more keepin'-it-realish, or something, by couching your story in a half-assed apology. well, it won't work. you did some good people a solid, and you deserve everyone's thanks and congratulations.
1. It is never the producer's responsibility to clear the sample. All the producer has to do is offer what he sampled if asked.
Is this a fact? All the record contracts I've seen read just the opposite; that it's the artists responsibility. It might be different over in the US, though.
Every contract I've ever seen has said: you are a producer, we are a label. If you get popped we are like huh? we didn't know and it's on you, very personally. I would like to recommend/suggest any producers out there releasing sampled ish on a semi-large scale to incorporate as soon as possible to protect your personal assets from an infringement lawsuit. BTW if the label gets a cease and desist (sp?) that's your ass playa, not the label's.
is it different when it's a bigger label involved? i read that Atlantic (or whoever Fabolous is signed to) got hit hard by Supertramp because they leaked "Breathe" to radio before the sample was cleared. Because the label fucked up, Supertramp demanded $100 grand and 100% of the publishing on that song. It was up to the label to clear that and not Just Blaze, right? Shouldn't the label go "Hold up, that sounds like a sample, we better talk to our clearance department." Blaze could have told them that it was Supertramp, but isn't it ultimately up to the label's legal department to get that handled?
i don't see how you "fucked up." it doesn't take an ethicist to see that what you did was just. what is this, some kind of "honor among thieves" bullshit? how lame. seriously, i don't get it. what i suspect is going on here is that you were justifiably proud of yourself, and rather than write something along the lines of "look at me! i am truly the superman of sample-spotting, and i have now exposed another injustice and ensured that some struggling artists will get paid for their work by the more successful artists who have ripped them off," you decided you'd look better, or appear to be more keepin'-it-realish, or something, by couching your story in a half-assed apology. well, it won't work. you did some good people a solid, and you deserve everyone's thanks and congratulations.
m
DING DING DING!!!
You are correct, sir! I'm sure anybody who "knows" me here knows I don't really feel bad about this. I thought it was a cool little story to share and figured the dramatic tone I took would make for better reading, hence the "Open Letter To Kanye West" as opposed to "Open Letter To Whoever's Responsible For Clearing Samples Over At J Records" thread title. I'm not COMPLETELY stupid, I know my little slip-up wasn't going to force Kanye to start poppin' - gasp! - clearance rack tags.
And I'm not advocating "'honor amongst thieves' bullshit", either. In my second post, I said clearly:
P.S. I hope Daptone was paid for this, especially since they're the smaller fish in this situation.
Best believe, if word comes out that Daptone Records (and, of course, the band) gets what's rightfully due, I WILL TAKE FULL CREDIT FOR IT!!! Ha ha!!!
A few other things:
1. I just realized that the dude I told is Bosco, the producer (and composer?) of the group and I believe the owner of Daptone. So I guess I told the right dude.
2. The "Brand New!" vocal sample is not Sharon Jones.
3. RootlessCosmo: Justin Timberlake is dope. (And my niece calls "Cry Me A River" the "Bug's Life" song 'cause that buzzing part reminds her of the waiting area of the 3D Bug's Life attraction in Disneyland. She's so on point.)
4. Big Stacks: I already emailed Alphonse Mouzon your mp3's. I told him you were triple platinum in the Netherlands. You best to get your legal on and INC., hoLmes!
5. ThesOne: If Kanye takes 'em on tour and makes them his backing band, best believe...I WILL TAKE FULL CREDIT FOR IT!!! Ha ha!!
6. DeeRock took Daze's name-dropping to the . Step ya rep up, Daze!
7. Dude that doubts that Kanye or Rhymefest will read this: Read up on your read-ups. Why do you think we have a Salma Hayek graemlin? I'm trying to summon fools!
[color:white]8. Thanks to Dr**n I have a temporary password to AssParade.com. So goodbye S.S. and hello A.S.S. Olivia O'Lovely, here I, ummm, come!!![/color]
first of all my band just did a show with sharon & the dap kings in cannes last month. i know the fee they got. they are BY NO MEANS struggling. they are also cool as hell and enjoy touring and have shows lined up through the middle of next year. jurassic 5 also used a sample of them for their "red hot" single. peace, stein. . .
if im not mistaken they are goin to be playing in asheville soon, so I thought maybe me and my girl, some friends,etc wanted to do. I have to admit I am not TOOO famiiar with her/their work, can someone purseude me why I MUST go? mp3 clips? i'd love show clips? whatever. Its about 45 min away in Asheville at the Orange Peel which means we'd be surrounded by lots of nasty hippie dudes doing those weird hippie dances.
I drove from Las Vegas to California in 3 hours to catch that show. The crowd was predominately white folks. We got ripped 6 extra bucks at the door. We missed all the sugarman three stuff. I'm still elated that we made it. It was soooo good. I was the only person there to go down on the drum break. That was incredible. Imagine getting to catch James brown and the JB's, before James got fat. That's the level of energy that was in the room. The band was just on point, and really you don't get shows like that anymore.
Trust me.
Get there on time. Bring your dancing shoes. If you end up enjoying the show send me some vinyl!!
(I ended up having to pay for gas, ($90) admission for 2, ($34) and roscoes chicken and waffles($30), so i couldn't bring home any vinyl. Still fuming about that.)
first of all my band just did a show with sharon & the dap kings in cannes last month. i know the fee they got. they are BY NO MEANS struggling.
They get waaay more $$$ in Yurp than in NYC. Something to do with people there who like to both dance like mofos and drink like fish.
Struggling is a relative term, they have been struggling for quite a few years and now finally a few things are falling into place. Doesn't mean they're gonna start nipping to the bodega in an H2 just yet.
It seems like this board feels like sampling is an art that should be supported, but conversely that sampling without clearance is a no-no. Where's the middle ground?
a. sampling is an art that should be supported
b. sampling without clearance is a no-no
not seeing the contradiction.
Does anyone really think samples shouldn't have to be cleared?
I drove from Las Vegas to California in 3 hours to catch that show. The crowd was predominately white folks. We got ripped 6 extra bucks at the door. We missed all the sugarman three stuff. I'm still elated that we made it. It was soooo good. I was the only person there to go down on the drum break. That was incredible. Imagine getting to catch James brown and the JB's, before James got fat. That's the level of energy that was in the room. The band was just on point, and really you don't get shows like that anymore.
Trust me.
Get there on time. Bring your dancing shoes. If you end up enjoying the show send me some vinyl!!
(I ended up having to pay for gas, ($90) admission for 2, ($34) and roscoes chicken and waffles($30), so i couldn't bring home any vinyl. Still fuming about that.)
- spidey
What are you doing buying Rosco's and Dap Kings Tickets? You still owe me. No computer for you for a week.
I flew to NY by myself last year just to see them. Didn't have a clue where to go, didn't know a soul. Wandered around NY till I found the Southpaw in BK, spent WAY too much for drinks out there (how do you all get drunk at $6 for a can of Highlife beer? Jesus.) and saw, with mabey the exception of The Flash Express, hands down the best show of my life. Sharon Jones & The Dap Kings AND Lee Feilds & The Sugerman Three.
plane ticket ($200), admission for 1 ($10), room and board ($200) and too much vinyl and a Grant Green - Alive CD with some bonus tracks that I bought off some dude on the sidewalk ($250)
It seems like this board feels like sampling is an art that should be supported, but conversely that sampling without clearance is a no-no. Where's the middle ground?
a. sampling is an art that should be supported
b. sampling without clearance is a no-no
not seeing the contradiction.
Does anyone really think samples shouldn't have to be cleared?
Sorry, should have explained it better - I am taking into account the idea that sampling as an artform can never be fully cleared, with examples from "3Ft High & Rising" to "Endtroducing...". I mean, I can't help but see that everyone on this board is making a huge exception for Sharon Jones (not passing judgment, just pointing it out). If artists had to clear everything they would be shackled and it would handicap their ability to express artistically using that medium.
I totally believe big 2-8 bar samples should be cleared (especially by big name artists) but I am not going to sit up and fight for the right of artists to sue rap producers over anything. Hence the question - where's the middle ground?
I'm kinda surprised that some are traveling long distances or haven't yet even had the opportunity to see SJ... she's probably played in my immediate area 4-6 times already in the past couple years (not counting shows in the state but too far like Asheville) and is about to appear here again... are we just lucky?
I'm kinda surprised that some are traveling long distances or haven't yet even had the opportunity to see SJ... she's probably played in my immediate area 4-6 times already in the past couple years (not counting shows in the state but too far like Asheville) and is about to appear here again... are we just lucky?
i think so. at the tucson show she said it was their first time here. don't think they've played anywhere else in az before either, but i might be wrong. it was a great turnout here though, so i think they'll be coming back.
It seems like this board feels like sampling is an art that should be supported, but conversely that sampling without clearance is a no-no. Where's the middle ground?
a. sampling is an art that should be supported
b. sampling without clearance is a no-no
not seeing the contradiction.
Does anyone really think samples shouldn't have to be cleared?
Sorry, should have explained it better - I am taking into account the idea that sampling as an artform can never be fully cleared, with examples from "3Ft High & Rising" to "Endtroducing...". I mean, I can't help but see that everyone on this board is making a huge exception for Sharon Jones (not passing judgment, just pointing it out). If artists had to clear everything they would be shackled and it would handicap their ability to express artistically using that medium.
I totally believe big 2-8 bar samples should be cleared (especially by big name artists) but I am not going to sit up and fight for the right of artists to sue rap producers over anything. Hence the question - where's the middle ground?
I think the ideal situation would be for all samples to be cleared, and the owners of the sampled master tapes to actually charge a fair amount for the usage instead of overcharging, so the producer can still make cash.
I think the ideal situation would be for all samples to be cleared, and the owners of the sampled master tapes to actually charge a fair amount for the usage instead of overcharging, so the producer can still make cash.
cosign, and the original artist should get more publishing instead of asking for mad loot up front. that way, their money is commensurate with what sells. if the artist/label releases without clearing, then all bets are off.
really ideally though, you shouldn't be sampling something so obvious that you would have to pay out the ass for it anyway. it's called digging. in an ideal world everyone would dig really deep and no one would take lame (pop) cultural shortcuts by sampling Diana Ross.
I'm kinda surprised that some are traveling long distances or haven't yet even had the opportunity to see SJ... she's probably played in my immediate area 4-6 times already in the past couple years (not counting shows in the state but too far like Asheville) and is about to appear here again... are we just lucky?
i think so. at the tucson show she said it was their first time here. don't think they've played anywhere else in az before either, but i might be wrong. it was a great turnout here though, so i think they'll be coming back.
I think the ideal situation would be for all samples to be cleared, and the owners of the sampled master tapes to actually charge a fair amount for the usage instead of overcharging, so the producer can still make cash.
cosign, and the original artist should get more publishing instead of asking for mad loot up front. that way, their money is commensurate with what sells. if the artist/label releases without clearing, then all bets are off.
really ideally though, you shouldn't be sampling something so obvious that you would have to pay out the ass for it anyway. it's called digging. in an ideal world everyone would dig really deep and no one would take lame (pop) cultural shortcuts by sampling Diana Ross.
There is nothing so obscure that you don't have to clear it anymore. Seriously, EVERYTHING is on the table at this point.
I think the ideal situation would be for all samples to be cleared, and the owners of the sampled master tapes to actually charge a fair amount for the usage instead of overcharging, so the producer can still make cash.
cosign, and the original artist should get more publishing instead of asking for mad loot up front. that way, their money is commensurate with what sells. if the artist/label releases without clearing, then all bets are off.
really ideally though, you shouldn't be sampling something so obvious that you would have to pay out the ass for it anyway. it's called digging. in an ideal world everyone would dig really deep and no one would take lame (pop) cultural shortcuts by sampling Diana Ross.
There is nothing so obscure that you don't have to clear it anymore. Seriously, EVERYTHING is on the table at this point.
Seriously, obscure shit is actually even more of a hassle because most times they dont have any organization set up for clearances. Diana Ross for example most definitely has the right kind of management to make sampling possible.
Recently I know of a case where SPACEY, that japanese shit was sampled and they tried to clear it for a major label project. Your first challenge is finding the original artist and getting their permission, in this case i dont think they even got that far.
When that process takes alot of time, it hold up the production of the album and most likely your song will either be cut from the project (most likely scenario), or they will drop the sample out of your beat entirely like they did to jake on that g-unit shit.
You have to clear samples. Its not even an argument. I dont really know a whole lot about up front fee's for specific artists, but i do know that most of the time, you as a producer get NO publishing. Which actually kinda makes sense seeing as how you didnt really WRITE the song.
I wouldnt say it severly hurts a producers creative process, cause you can still do it. But it really makes you think about if a sample is worth paying for, cause you will have to pay for it.
Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread. I can only sit at the computer for so long with my injury so, here's my thought on the matter. Sorry if it's been covered.
I wonder if Kanye & Co sampled it, or interpolated it. Either way, I feel the band or publisher should be credited and paid, especially if some big money is a part of the equation, which brings me to...I'm not familiar to "Rhymefest". Is he/they, huge? Maybe they had to pay Kanye to do the beat and Kanye never told them where he "bit" it from. As a producer that sells beats, I think it should be ones responsibility to disclose all used and interpolated samples to protect the buyer from future monetary grief. No matter how obscure it is.
That is my uneducAted take on this since I have no idea about the details. Thanks.
I think the ideal situation would be for all samples to be cleared, and the owners of the sampled master tapes to actually charge a fair amount for the usage instead of overcharging, so the producer can still make cash.
cosign, and the original artist should get more publishing instead of asking for mad loot up front. that way, their money is commensurate with what sells. if the artist/label releases without clearing, then all bets are off.
really ideally though, you shouldn't be sampling something so obvious that you would have to pay out the ass for it anyway. it's called digging. in an ideal world everyone would dig really deep and no one would take lame (pop) cultural shortcuts by sampling Diana Ross.
They already get all the publishing! Their should be a standard breakdown of some sort that is equal. Sampling producers make nothing on publishing for the most part.
as far as saying SJ and the Dap Kings arent struggling doesnt mean they havent...they have paid dues and are still paying them...shit, a 7 piece band crammed in a van driving all over God's green earth...and yes they do get some nice guarantees in SOME cities, but not all of them. I have put on Daptone shows in the past where they just played for the door and it was heartbreaking to hand Bosco, who was lying on down on the concrete because the weight of the bass was killing his back he injured in a car wreck, a measly ass $300...the dudes are one of the best touring bands of the last 20 years and they deserve EVERY fuggin penny coming to them.
Whenever I feel cranky about hauling around my DJ gear and records I think about live bands. What a labor of love. They have 5 times the equipment and have to cut the pie all up. Their set up time is gargantuan compared to mine. In other words, I tell myself to shut the fuck up.
Comments
Also many times a label and/or group will place into the contract a non-indemnify(is that the right term?) clause in their deal. I know that evidence was popped for a sample on the linkin park reanimation album. He signed a contract that said there would be no samples.
alba alba alba alba alba alba
i don't see how you "fucked up." it doesn't take an ethicist to see that what you did was just. what is this, some kind of "honor among thieves" bullshit? how lame. seriously, i don't get it. what i suspect is going on here is that you were justifiably proud of yourself, and rather than write something along the lines of "look at me! i am truly the superman of sample-spotting, and i have now exposed another injustice and ensured that some struggling artists will get paid for their work by the more successful artists who have ripped them off," you decided you'd look better, or appear to be more keepin'-it-realish, or something, by couching your story in a half-assed apology. well, it won't work. you did some good people a solid, and you deserve everyone's thanks and congratulations.
m
is it different when it's a bigger label involved? i read that Atlantic (or whoever Fabolous is signed to) got hit hard by Supertramp because they leaked "Breathe" to radio before the sample was cleared. Because the label fucked up, Supertramp demanded $100 grand and 100% of the publishing on that song. It was up to the label to clear that and not Just Blaze, right? Shouldn't the label go "Hold up, that sounds like a sample, we better talk to our clearance department." Blaze could have told them that it was Supertramp, but isn't it ultimately up to the label's legal department to get that handled?
DING DING DING!!!
You are correct, sir! I'm sure anybody who "knows" me here knows I don't really feel bad about this. I thought it was a cool little story to share and figured the dramatic tone I took would make for better reading, hence the "Open Letter To Kanye West" as opposed to "Open Letter To Whoever's Responsible For Clearing Samples Over At J Records" thread title. I'm not COMPLETELY stupid, I know my little slip-up wasn't going to force Kanye to start poppin' - gasp! - clearance rack tags.
And I'm not advocating "'honor amongst thieves' bullshit", either. In my second post, I said clearly:
Best believe, if word comes out that Daptone Records (and, of course, the band) gets what's rightfully due, I WILL TAKE FULL CREDIT FOR IT!!! Ha ha!!!
A few other things:
1. I just realized that the dude I told is Bosco, the producer (and composer?) of the group and I believe the owner of Daptone. So I guess I told the right dude.
2. The "Brand New!" vocal sample is not Sharon Jones.
3. RootlessCosmo: Justin Timberlake is dope. (And my niece calls "Cry Me A River" the "Bug's Life" song 'cause that buzzing part reminds her of the waiting area of the 3D Bug's Life attraction in Disneyland. She's so on point.)
4. Big Stacks: I already emailed Alphonse Mouzon your mp3's. I told him you were triple platinum in the Netherlands. You best to get your legal on and INC., hoLmes!
5. ThesOne: If Kanye takes 'em on tour and makes them his backing band, best believe...I WILL TAKE FULL CREDIT FOR IT!!! Ha ha!!
6. DeeRock took Daze's name-dropping to the
7. Dude that doubts that Kanye or Rhymefest will read this: Read up on your read-ups. Why do you think we have a Salma Hayek graemlin? I'm trying to summon fools!
[color:white]8. Thanks to Dr**n I have a temporary password to AssParade.com. So goodbye S.S. and hello A.S.S. Olivia O'Lovely, here I, ummm, come!!![/color]
Herm
heath
Trust me.
Get there on time. Bring your dancing shoes. If you end up enjoying the show send me some vinyl!!
(I ended up having to pay for gas, ($90) admission for 2, ($34) and roscoes chicken and waffles($30), so i couldn't bring home any vinyl. Still fuming about that.)
- spidey
you sure? isn't it her from "the dap dip" on the very same lp?
m
AYOOOOOOOO
naw seriously, check out the dapkings... its worth it
get up in front in asheville though so you don't have to see the dancing... unfortunately you will still smell the odor though
They get waaay more $$$ in Yurp than in NYC. Something to do with people there who like to both dance like mofos and drink like fish.
Struggling is a relative term, they have been struggling for quite a few years and now finally a few things are falling into place. Doesn't mean they're gonna start nipping to the bodega in an H2 just yet.
a. sampling is an art that should be supported
b. sampling without clearance is a no-no
not seeing the contradiction.
Does anyone really think samples shouldn't have to be cleared?
What are you doing buying Rosco's and Dap Kings Tickets? You still owe me. No computer for you for a week.
I flew to NY by myself last year just to see them. Didn't have a clue where to go, didn't know a soul. Wandered around NY till I found the Southpaw in BK, spent WAY too much for drinks out there (how do you all get drunk at $6 for a can of Highlife beer? Jesus.) and saw, with mabey the exception of The Flash Express, hands down the best show of my life. Sharon Jones & The Dap Kings AND Lee Feilds & The Sugerman Three.
plane ticket ($200), admission for 1 ($10), room and board ($200) and too much vinyl and a Grant Green - Alive CD with some bonus tracks that I bought off some dude on the sidewalk ($250)
- eddie brock
Sorry, should have explained it better - I am taking into account the idea that sampling as an artform can never be fully cleared, with examples from "3Ft High & Rising" to "Endtroducing...". I mean, I can't help but see that everyone on this board is making a huge exception for Sharon Jones (not passing judgment, just pointing it out). If artists had to clear everything they would be shackled and it would handicap their ability to express artistically using that medium.
I totally believe big 2-8 bar samples should be cleared (especially by big name artists) but I am not going to sit up and fight for the right of artists to sue rap producers over anything. Hence the question - where's the middle ground?
They have never played here, but then again, there isn't much of a market out here for them.
It's always a LA LA trip for me and mine.
i think so. at the tucson show she said it was their first time here. don't think they've played anywhere else in az before either, but i might be wrong. it was a great turnout here though, so i think they'll be coming back.
Well you know what? I wouldn't think they would be very appreciated here either... but I guess they get enough of a crowd that they keep coming back
I think the ideal situation would be for all samples to be cleared, and the owners of the sampled master tapes to actually charge a fair amount for the usage instead of overcharging, so the producer can still make cash.
I think the ideal situation would be for all samples to be cleared, and the owners of the sampled master tapes to actually charge a fair amount for the usage instead of overcharging, so the producer can still make cash.
cosign, and the original artist should get more publishing instead of asking for mad loot up front. that way, their money is commensurate with what sells. if the artist/label releases without clearing, then all bets are off.
really ideally though, you shouldn't be sampling something so obvious that you would have to pay out the ass for it anyway. it's called digging. in an ideal world everyone would dig really deep and no one would take lame (pop) cultural shortcuts by sampling Diana Ross.
You're in Tucson? Have we met?
Herm
cosign, and the original artist should get more publishing instead of asking for mad loot up front. that way, their money is commensurate with what sells. if the artist/label releases without clearing, then all bets are off.
really ideally though, you shouldn't be sampling something so obvious that you would have to pay out the ass for it anyway. it's called digging. in an ideal world everyone would dig really deep and no one would take lame (pop) cultural shortcuts by sampling Diana Ross.
There is nothing so obscure that you don't have to clear it anymore. Seriously, EVERYTHING is on the table at this point.
There is nothing so obscure that you don't have to clear it anymore. Seriously, EVERYTHING is on the table at this point.
Seriously, obscure shit is actually even more of a hassle because most times they dont have any organization set up for clearances. Diana Ross for example most definitely has the right kind of management to make sampling possible.
Recently I know of a case where SPACEY, that japanese shit was sampled and they tried to clear it for a major label project. Your first challenge is finding the original artist and getting their permission, in this case i dont think they even got that far.
When that process takes alot of time, it hold up the production of the album and most likely your song will either be cut from the project (most likely scenario), or they will drop the sample out of your beat entirely like they did to jake on that g-unit shit.
You have to clear samples. Its not even an argument. I dont really know a whole lot about up front fee's for specific artists, but i do know that most of the time, you as a producer get NO publishing. Which actually kinda makes sense seeing as how you didnt really WRITE the song.
I wouldnt say it severly hurts a producers creative process, cause you can still do it. But it really makes you think about if a sample is worth paying for, cause you will have to pay for it.
I wonder if Kanye & Co sampled it, or interpolated it. Either way, I feel the band or publisher should be credited and paid, especially if some big money is a part of the equation, which brings me to...I'm not familiar to "Rhymefest". Is he/they, huge? Maybe they had to pay Kanye to do the beat and Kanye never told them where he "bit" it from. As a producer that sells beats, I think it should be ones responsibility to disclose all used and interpolated samples to protect the buyer from future monetary grief. No matter how obscure it is.
That is my uneducAted take on this since I have no idea about the details. Thanks.
Taza
It definitely is.
cosign, and the original artist should get more publishing instead of asking for mad loot up front. that way, their money is commensurate with what sells. if the artist/label releases without clearing, then all bets are off.
really ideally though, you shouldn't be sampling something so obvious that you would have to pay out the ass for it anyway. it's called digging. in an ideal world everyone would dig really deep and no one would take lame (pop) cultural shortcuts by sampling Diana Ross.
They already get all the publishing! Their should be a standard breakdown of some sort that is equal. Sampling producers make nothing on publishing for the most part.