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  • edpowersedpowers 4,437 Posts

    Reports coming out today suggest that Homeland Security is a huge part of the problem. Their mandate was around terrorism and when FEMA got swallowed up into the Dept., they redirected a huge amount of resources from preparing for natural disasters to preparing for terrorism.

    I have to say, it's amazing how much kneejerk reactionism explains poor public policy. People were angry because they felt like we got suckered on 9/11 (and we were) but in response, they pushed tens (if not hundreds) of billions of dollars towards fighting terrorism - including allocating hundreds of millions to states where, no offense, but it's unlikely that terrorists would strike (unless Rhode Island has something I don't know about) and gutting FEMA in the process.

    In hindsight, it seems I N S A N E since the chances of a natural disaster are so much more likely than a terrorist attack but Americans - especially politicians - were so paranoid about looking like they were caught off guard again that they got blinded to other dangers.

    Btw, to note on another post: if C-N-fucking-N is herbing you, you KNOW shit is bad. All we need now is Fox to go on full blast mode and it's all over. I was reading Michelle Malkin's blog - she being Ann Coulter with black hair - and even she was taking some surprising positions of criticism on this whole deal.

    Just to be clear, it'd be a mistake to place this on Bush solely. He's part of the puzzle, but there's a WHOLE lot of people who deserve ass kicking down the chain.


  • volumenvolumen 2,532 Posts

    As to the guy that asked how racism played into this, imagine of you will if 20,000 suburban whites were trapped in a similar situation. The official (and unofficial) outrage and reaction would be on full blast. Turn on Fox news and watch how they not-so-subtly turn the focus back to Mississippi over and over again. Not that people there aren't suffering, but there's just no comparison.

    I hear ya Lar, and I think it's just different ways to see it. The situation you describe above would RARELY involve the word 'REFUGEE' on the media. It just wouldn't. the term 'SURVIVORS', 'VICTIMS'...yes, those would be used in abundance, and in fairness, they are currently as well. But a wall of displaced, European WASPs hurricane victims would not be overwhelmingly referred to repeatedly as 'REFUGEES'.
    It simply is a code for black and brown people, and it's overuse[/b] is my main gripe, not as a descriptor occasionally in terms of analogous situations. It is just an obvious case of code for one segment of the society that would not be in use for white people.


    I have to agree with this. White = survivor Black = refugee. Same as the "finders" and "looters" thing that came up a couple days ago. Refugee has no place to be used. At best it's lame sensationalism by the media who doesn't even have enough sence to look up a word and be sure they are useing it right. At worst is some racist shit!!!!!!! It totally implies these are people we were never connected to and for that matter never considered part of our society, and now we are stuck taking care of them until we can find someplace else to ship them off to.


  • fidel castro is offering

    1100 doctors

    2600 TONS of meds


    Hugo Chavez dissed Bush and offerred $1 million in aid

    http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/368/16100_Chavez.html

  • CosmoCosmo 9,768 Posts

    fidel castro is offering

    1100 doctors

    2600 TONS of meds


    Hugo Chavez dissed Bush and offerred $1 million in aid

    http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/368/16100_Chavez.html

    You know, thinking about how backwards this is, in 2001 I went to Havana for for the purpose of bring meds to the needy there, who can't get shit like nitroglycerine pills and insulin, because of the embargo. And now they're offering us meds that THEY CAN'T EVEN GET ON THE REGULAR because of the embargo.

    We should be so ashamed of ourselves. I'm ready to succede from the union.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I'm still not convinced about the semantic politics of "refugee" and I don't think anyone can accuse me of being racially insensitive. I think there are pros and cons of using the term of both sides. For me, calling these people refugees actually brings Americans closer to the rest of the world but on the flipside, I can appreciate that others would see a racialized element here. I don't know - the term itself originally referred largely to Europeans displaced by WW1 and 2 and in more recent times, outside of Asian and Africa, I think "Bosnian refugees" who were, technically speaking white (though Muslim).

    Also, 2.5 billion dollars is not chump change. I can't say if it was an unwise decision NOT to upgrade the levees to Level 5 status considering that a Level 5 storm is probably equivalent to a massive earthquake on a scale that's very rarely seen (but possible). They're retrofitting the Bay Bridge but I'm sure they did a cost benefit analysis of how much to put in it and I don't think the new Bridge could withstand the most powerful of the possible earthquakes that could get triggered around here. Is that a bad policy decision? It's hard to say. Look at all of us in our daily lives - do we spend the money it would take to insure our safety, as best to our ability? Of course we don't. We make choices and then pray. I don't think it's any more useful to look in hindsight and say, "well, of course we should have upgraded to Level 5." It's not that simple.

    HOWEVER, what they could have done is prepare better for the disaster in ways that wouldn't have cost 2.5 billion. Like having a realistic evacuation plan to move out those unable to afford their own transportation. Or stockpiling water/food. Or creating a power grid infrastructure that would have performed better. These were, in my opinion, financially affordable and reasonable steps that could have - and in hindsight, should have been taken.

    And yeah, more money into the levees = not a bad look either. But in all fairness, New Orleans was built in one shitty place to begin with.

    Just remember that it's not just the levees. We're talking about a city that's been subjet to urban neglect for decades. I think it and Detroit could have a run-off to see who's been more blighted and NO might take it. What we've seen is the culmination of all this. The levees are part of it, but only the most obvious part.

  • pasepase 89 Posts



    We should be so ashamed of ourselves. I'm ready to succede from the union.
    [color:red] [/color]


    secede.

  • I used to work with refugees of all colors. White, brown, yellow, black, whatever. What does race have to do with it?

  • I used to work with refugees of all colors. White, brown, yellow, black, whatever. What does race have to do with it?

    It's an overanalyzation.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    New Orleans was built in one shitty place to begin with.

    An ironic statement from someone living in the Bay Area.

  • New Orleans was built in one shitty place to begin with.

    An ironic statement from someone living in the Bay Area.




  • HOWEVER, what they could have done is prepare better for the disaster in ways that wouldn't have cost 2.5 billion. Like having a realistic evacuation plan to move out those unable to afford their own transportation.




  • SwayzeSwayze 14,705 Posts

    BULLSHIT is rising faster than the flood water.

    ---- REAL TALK

  • alieNDNalieNDN 2,181 Posts
    that footage showed me that damn...damn...damn...damn...damn...

    it hit me hard. what makes me sick too my stomach is that, that was something captured on film. how may times is this sort of sheit going on in every part of the world that we are a part of, without film recognition?. i sincerely think, that if we were accurately aware of ALL these travesties happening all over the world without a media outlet to reflect upon them, very few of us wouldn't succumb to slitting our own wrists....phuck.

    humans are phucking vile...but a part of me acknowledges those that do good. thank god for them.


  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts

    Wow

    I am at a restricted work station, can you elaborate on what this is???


  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts



    What?!

  • dayday 9,611 Posts



    Wow



    I am at a restricted work station, can you elaborate on what this is???



    http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.blame/



    New Orleans paper rips federal response

    Times-Picayune: Everybody at FEMA should be fired



    Sunday, September 4, 2005; Posted: 10:04 p.m. EDT (02:04 GMT)



    NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- Louisiana's largest newspaper printed a blistering editorial in Sunday's edition under the headline "An Open Letter to the President," criticizing the federal government's response to Hurricane Katrina.



    The Times-Picayune -- which abandoned its New Orleans headquarters and temporarily ceased its print publication last week -- called on every Federal Emergency Management Agency official to be fired, "Director Michael Brown especially." (Read the editorial)



    The editorial joined other voices criticizing the governmental response to the disaster, including New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin. Criticism has come from people affected on the ground as well as from politicians of both parties. (Full story)



    "We have been abandoned by our own country," said Aaron Broussard, the president of Jefferson Parish in New Orleans.



    He broke down in tears Sunday as he recounted how a colleague's mother drowned awaiting rescue from a nursing home.



    "Everyday, she called and she said, 'Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?' " Broussard told NBC's "Meet the Press."



    "And he said, 'Yeah, Mama, somebody's going to get you.



    " 'Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday.



    " 'Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday.



    " 'Somebody's coming to get you on Thursday.



    " 'Somebody's coming to get you on Friday,' and she drowned Friday night."



    "Nobody's coming to get her. The secretary's promised, everybody's promised; they've had press conferences. I'm sick of the press conferences.



    "For God's sake, shut up and send us somebody."[/b]



    The secretary to whom Broussard referred, Michael Chertoff of the Department of Homeland Security, on Sunday rejected criticism of his agency's work.



    "This was not just a hurricane; it was a hurricane that was followed by a flood," Chertoff told CNN's "Late Edition."



    "It was unprecedented and, I think, that created a challenge that, frankly, overwhelmed a lot of people -- state and local folks. We had people on the ground who were pre-positioned," he said, citing 50 Coast Guard helicopters as an example.



    Chertoff said federal authorities "moved as rapidly as we could," and added that he, too, was frustrated that the pace of the response was not quicker.



    "The fact of the matter is: It's never enough when there are still people suffering," he said.



    "But there's also a tremendous amount of credit to be given," he said, pointing to the Coast Guard, FEMA, state and local rescue workers, the National Guard and the military.

    Democrat to submit FEMA bill



    Also Sunday, the top Democrat on the House Department of Homeland Security Committee blasted the federal government for its response.



    "It was too little, too late," said Rep. Bennie Thompson, a Mississippi Democrat. "We missed the mark."



    Thompson said the blame can be traced to the merger of the Federal Emergency Management Agency with the Homeland Security Department, when domestic preparedness "took a back seat" to preparing for terrorist attacks.



    Rep. John D. Dingell said he will introduce legislation Tuesday that would remove FEMA from the Department of Homeland Security and make it, instead, an independent agency headed by a Cabinet-level executive.



    "I can clearly see that FEMA has lost its way," the Democrat from Michigan said in a written statement.



    James Lee Witt, a former FEMA director who has been brought in as an advisor by Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco, agreed that the agency "really needs to be put back as an independent agency."



    "Since 9/11, FEMA has been basically dissected and taken apart," he told CNN.



    FEMA, meanwhile, has refused to release 50 trucks carrying water and ice sitting at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, Hattiesburg Mayor Johnny DuPree said.



    "They're sitting down there right now because one person from FEMA won't make the call to say, 'Release those trucks,' " he said.[/b]



    Two-thirds of the residents of the southern Mississippi city have no power, and that figure was 100 percent for three-and-a-half days, he added.



    He said FEMA representatives did not arrive in Hattiesburg -- 95 miles from New Orleans -- until Saturday.



    "People from all over America have come in to help us," he said. "But the people who get paid to do this haven't done what I think they should have done."



    Rep. Bobby Jindal, a Louisiana Republican, added, "I think there's plenty of blame to go around at the state and federal levels."



    But, he told CNN, "It's not the time to blame; it's time to make sure somebody's in charge."

    Commander: 'This hurts to the heart'



    The military commander in charge of the relief efforts, Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, said authorities moved as quickly as possible, although he wished they could have moved faster.



    "This hurts to the heart," he told CNN. "If we could have done it faster ... it would have been done. This is America. This is why we have one of the best militaries in the world, but it took time to get there."



    Chertoff came to the defense of Brown, the FEMA director.



    "On Saturday [before the storm], he was on TV telling people in New Orleans they have to take it seriously," said Chertoff, who is Brown's boss.



    The secretary said disaster planners have long had a problem getting people to evacuate. He did not address the fact that lack of money, lack of transportation and physical problems prevented many from following the order to flee.



    But the time for self-criticism is not now, when life-saving work remains to be done, he said.



    "We're going to go back and look at all of this after-action, when we have time, but I've got to emphasize something: We are still in the middle of an emergency," Chertoff said.



    Asked about President Bush's comment Thursday to ABC News that, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees," Chertoff defended his boss.



    "I think that did catch people by surprise," the secretary said. "I don't think anybody has seen that kind of massive breach -- in fact, multiple, massive breaches."



    Scientists, federal officials and others had predicted for decades the potential for a Katrina-like disaster, with levees breaking and water swamping New Orleans, most of which sits below sea level.



    Chertoff said FEMA is not equipped to send large numbers of people to help during a disaster.



    Instead, he said, "FEMA basically plugs in to the existing state and local infrastructure. What happened here was, e ssentially, the demolishment of that state and local infrastructure and, I think, that really caused a cascading series of breakdowns."



    The lessons from Katrina may result in a change in the way FEMA responds to such emergencies, moving from playing a supportive role to playing a more central role, he said.



    "We're going to see a lot of things we put in place worked well," he said. "There are some things which did not work well."



    Sen. Mary Landrieu told CBS's "Face the Nation" that she had no time to consider blame while rescue operations are ongoing.



    "Quite frankly that discussion is getting in the way," the Louisiana Democrat said.



    Strangely, they ommited these comments he made this morning on Meet the Press, from the article:



    Broussard discussed difficulties local authorities had with FEMA, including one case where they actually posted armed guards to keep FEMA from cutting their communications lines: ???We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn???t need them. This was a week ago. FEMA, we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. When we got there with our trucks, FEMA says don???t give you the fuel. Yesterday FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines.???[/b]



    Really, you need to see him saying this for the full impact. It's one thing to read "he broke down" but it's another thing entirely to see it.

  • alieNDNalieNDN 2,181 Posts



    What?!


  • Really, you need to see him saying this for the full impact. It's one thing to read "he broke down" but it's another thing entirely to see it.

    Ditto. Not just shed some tears and turned away, he full out broke down and started crying and whining like a baby. And I'm not making fun, I'm just saying it to get it across: you could tell, he full out broke down and started crying like a child. It was raw emotion that is rarely seen anywhere, let alone in the media like that.

  • luckluck 4,077 Posts

    I saw this fifteen minutes ago, and it's taken me that long just to stop crying.
    I...........



  • JESUS FUCKING CHRIST



    of course, the contract is from 2004, but



    WHAT THE FUCK



    This is like some sort of psychedelic political nightmare.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts

    Wow

    I am at a restricted work station, can you elaborate on what this is???

    I watched this just before bed last night. Let me tell you it was a rough night.

    ???We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn???t need them. This was a week ago. FEMA, we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. When we got there with our trucks, FEMA says don???t give you the fuel. Yesterday FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines.???

    He kept saying these things and the Meet The Press anchor kept trying to say, Don't the locals who didn't evaquate share the blame?

    Then he would tell a story about local heroes and federal hubris.

    The Meet The Press said guy would say, what about your govenor?

    Finally He quite letting the MTP guy interupt and said what he wanted to say. Then he started telling what was clearly a personal story that will haunt him for his whole life.



    "We have been abandoned by our own country," said Aaron Broussard, the president of Jefferson Parish in New Orleans.

    He broke down in tears Sunday as he recounted how a colleague's mother drowned awaiting rescue from a nursing home.

    "Everyday, she called and she said, 'Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?' " Broussard told NBC's "Meet the Press."

    "And he said, 'Yeah, Mama, somebody's going to get you.

    " 'Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday.

    " 'Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday.

    " 'Somebody's coming to get you on Thursday.

    " 'Somebody's coming to get you on Friday,' and she drowned Friday night."

    "Nobody's coming to get her. The secretary's promised, everybody's promised; they've had press conferences. I'm sick of the press conferences.

    "For God's sake, shut up and send us somebody."

    If the press had not been in New Orleans there is no doubt in my mind that everyone would have been left to die. Don't call them refugees, call them Holocaust survivors. Bush, Chernoff and Brown should be tried for crimes against humanity.

    Dan

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    New Orleans was built in one shitty place to begin with.

    An ironic statement from someone living in the Bay Area.

    I'm not disrespecting. Building a city that lies at the center of a zillion fault lines isn't such a good look either.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Nagin's not looking so good here. This was originally run in 2004 after Ivan, before Katrina.


    Poor, Black, and Left Behind
    by Mike Davis

    The evacuation of New Orleans in the face of Hurricane Ivan looked sinisterly like Strom Thurmond's version of the Rapture. Affluent white people fled the Big Easy in their SUVs, while the old and car-less -- mainly Black -- were left behind in their below-sea-level shotgun shacks and aging tenements to face the watery wrath.

    New Orleans had spent decades preparing for inevitable submersion by the storm surge of a class-five hurricane. Civil defense officials conceded they had ten thousand body bags on hand to deal with the worst-case scenario. But no one seemed to have bothered to devise a plan to evacuate the city's poorest or most infirm residents. The day before the hurricane hit the Gulf Coast, New Orlean's daily, the Times-Picayune, ran an alarming story about the "large group???mostly concentrated in poorer neighborhoods" who wanted to evacuate but couldn't.

    Only at the last moment, with winds churning Lake Pontchartrain, did Mayor Ray Nagin reluctantly open the Louisiana Superdome and a few schools to desperate residents. He was reportedly worried that lower-class refugees might damage or graffiti the Superdome.

    In the event, Ivan the Terrible spared New Orleans, but official callousness toward poor Black folk endures.

    Over the last generation, City Hall and its entourage of powerful developers have relentlessly attempted to push the poorest segment of the population -- blamed for the city's high crime rates -- across the Mississippi river. Historic Black public-housing projects have been razed to make room for upper-income townhouses and a Wal-Mart. In other housing projects, residents are routinely evicted for offenses as trivial as their children's curfew violations. The ultimate goal seems to be a tourist theme-park New Orleans -- one big Garden District -- with chronic poverty hidden away in bayous, trailer parks and prisons outside the city limits.

    But New Orleans isn't the only the case-study in what Nixonians once called "the politics of benign neglect." In Los Angeles, county supervisors have just announced the closure of the trauma center at Martin Luther King Jr. Hospital near Watts. The hospital, located in the epicenter of LA's gang wars, is one of the nation's busiest centers for the treatment of gunshot wounds. The loss of its ER, according to paramedics, could "add as much as 30 minutes in transport time to other facilities."

    The result, almost certainly, will be a spate of avoidable deaths. But then again the victims will be Black or Brown and poor.

  • Nagin's not looking so good here. This was originally run in 2004 after Ivan, before Katrina.


    Poor, Black, and Left Behind
    by Mike Davis

    The evacuation of New Orleans in the face of Hurricane Ivan looked sinisterly like Strom Thurmond's version of the Rapture. Affluent white people fled the Big Easy in their SUVs, while the old and car-less -- mainly Black -- were left behind in their below-sea-level shotgun shacks and aging tenements to face the watery wrath.

    New Orleans had spent decades preparing for inevitable submersion by the storm surge of a class-five hurricane. Civil defense officials conceded they had ten thousand body bags on hand to deal with the worst-case scenario. But no one seemed to have bothered to devise a plan to evacuate the city's poorest or most infirm residents. The day before the hurricane hit the Gulf Coast, New Orlean's daily, the Times-Picayune, ran an alarming story about the "large group???mostly concentrated in poorer neighborhoods" who wanted to evacuate but couldn't.

    Only at the last moment, with winds churning Lake Pontchartrain, did Mayor Ray Nagin reluctantly open the Louisiana Superdome and a few schools to desperate residents. He was reportedly worried that lower-class refugees might damage or graffiti the Superdome.

    In the event, Ivan the Terrible spared New Orleans, but official callousness toward poor Black folk endures.

    Over the last generation, City Hall and its entourage of powerful developers have relentlessly attempted to push the poorest segment of the population -- blamed for the city's high crime rates -- across the Mississippi river. Historic Black public-housing projects have been razed to make room for upper-income townhouses and a Wal-Mart. In other housing projects, residents are routinely evicted for offenses as trivial as their children's curfew violations. The ultimate goal seems to be a tourist theme-park New Orleans -- one big Garden District -- with chronic poverty hidden away in bayous, trailer parks and prisons outside the city limits.

    But New Orleans isn't the only the case-study in what Nixonians once called "the politics of benign neglect." In Los Angeles, county supervisors have just announced the closure of the trauma center at Martin Luther King Jr. Hospital near Watts. The hospital, located in the epicenter of LA's gang wars, is one of the nation's busiest centers for the treatment of gunshot wounds. The loss of its ER, according to paramedics, could "add as much as 30 minutes in transport time to other facilities."

    The result, almost certainly, will be a spate of avoidable deaths. But then again the victims will be Black or Brown and poor.


    Not to switch subjects but MLK trauma center was the worst place to be taken in LA. You had a better chance of survival treating yourself than going to that hell hole. Even so it should not be closed it needed massive amounts of funding to bring it up to par and make it a viable solution. Overall the problem is a much bigger one than the trauma unit closing.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Nagin's not looking so good here. This was originally run in 2004 after Ivan, before Katrina.


    Poor, Black, and Left Behind
    by Mike Davis

    The evacuation of New Orleans in the face of Hurricane Ivan looked sinisterly like Strom Thurmond's version of the Rapture. Affluent white people fled the Big Easy in their SUVs, while the old and car-less -- mainly Black -- were left behind in their below-sea-level shotgun shacks and aging tenements to face the watery wrath.

    New Orleans had spent decades preparing for inevitable submersion by the storm surge of a class-five hurricane. Civil defense officials conceded they had ten thousand body bags on hand to deal with the worst-case scenario. But no one seemed to have bothered to devise a plan to evacuate the city's poorest or most infirm residents. The day before the hurricane hit the Gulf Coast, New Orlean's daily, the Times-Picayune, ran an alarming story about the "large group???mostly concentrated in poorer neighborhoods" who wanted to evacuate but couldn't.

    Only at the last moment, with winds churning Lake Pontchartrain, did Mayor Ray Nagin reluctantly open the Louisiana Superdome and a few schools to desperate residents. He was reportedly worried that lower-class refugees might damage or graffiti the Superdome.

    In the event, Ivan the Terrible spared New Orleans, but official callousness toward poor Black folk endures.

    Over the last generation, City Hall and its entourage of powerful developers have relentlessly attempted to push the poorest segment of the population -- blamed for the city's high crime rates -- across the Mississippi river. Historic Black public-housing projects have been razed to make room for upper-income townhouses and a Wal-Mart. In other housing projects, residents are routinely evicted for offenses as trivial as their children's curfew violations. The ultimate goal seems to be a tourist theme-park New Orleans -- one big Garden District -- with chronic poverty hidden away in bayous, trailer parks and prisons outside the city limits.

    But New Orleans isn't the only the case-study in what Nixonians once called "the politics of benign neglect." In Los Angeles, county supervisors have just announced the closure of the trauma center at Martin Luther King Jr. Hospital near Watts. The hospital, located in the epicenter of LA's gang wars, is one of the nation's busiest centers for the treatment of gunshot wounds. The loss of its ER, according to paramedics, could "add as much as 30 minutes in transport time to other facilities."

    The result, almost certainly, will be a spate of avoidable deaths. But then again the victims will be Black or Brown and poor.

    I'm ready to blame the Mayor and the Govenor. But the largest blame goes to those with the most power and rescorses, Brown, Chernoff, Bush.

    Dan
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