I understand people not liking Robin Thicke (I can barely look at the guy), but this verdict is complete, 100% bullshit.
These songs don't even have the same melody or chord progression, which are the accepted benchmarks for copyright claims.
The same groove? Since when is that a crime? Well, get ready for 10,000+ lawsuits on that basis wherein 95% of the songs people here ride for get taken off the market.
This x100000000000 (and also what Johnny said). This is a horrible precedent for music and really makes no sense (no matter how much you can't stand Thicke). This shouldn't be about him.
You can't even copyright a chord progression (think every blues song ever). Traditionally it's only melody and lyrics, neither of which apply in this case.
I'm still trying to figure out this ruling.
The Gaye family claimed the bassline and cowbell were copied (which should be meaningless legally even if that were true, which it's not), and the jury was told that it didn't have to be identical to be infringement.
Williams knew exactly what he was doing, which parts he could take and what had to be altered. He basically took GTGIU and removed the traditionally legally protected parts. It's what he does, and he's deft at it. I'm still in shock at this ruling.
This ruling is an overstep of the purpose of copyright and it comes within a long history of copyright-creep. It creates dis-incentives for cultural production without balancing it with meaningful incentives. No one is making music because they think some douchy pop singer is going to make a derivative song 35 years later. Instead, this ruling will likely inhibit creativity by pushing producers to rely on chord progressions, production techniques, instrumentation, and arrangements that are so commonplace at they are not reminiscent of any specific song or artist. A victory for blandness.
Sample, cover, and imitate to your hearts content, just make sure you (or your record company) can pay the bill.
Otherwise, "it aint a crime if you dont get caught".
Blurred lines is incredibly similar to Got to give it up; its the first thing I thought of when i first heard it, and thicke and co tried to get a little too slick. I happen to agree with this verdict. Wether or not this is 'a bad thing for music/creativity' remains to be seen. I call bullshit.
Record store guys circle jerking in smug mutual approvement on an old ass website, now there's a victory for blandness.
I have been informed:
"The Ninth Circuit's test for measuring similarity in copyright cases is whether the ordinary observer would consider the two works substantially similar in their 'total concept and feel.' "
Which is different from what I had read elsewhere.
Sample, cover, and imitate to your hearts content, just make sure you (or your record company) can pay the bill.
Otherwise, "it aint a crime if you dont get caught".
Blurred lines is incredibly similar to Got to give it up; its the first thing I thought of when i first heard it, and thicke and co tried to get a little too slick. I happen to agree with this verdict. Wether or not this is 'a bad thing for music/creativity' remains to be seen. I call bullshit.
Record store guys circle jerking in smug mutual approvement on an old ass website, now there's a victory for blandness.
LOL
You're the one who started by posting a video where the artist did give proper credit on the album for that particular track.
But by your standard all these songs are stolen because of similarity of some sort.
By your standards, a lot of artist are assholes. Example, Bruno Mars is fucked...
Oh crap Usher. Watch out for Homer suit.
That's a quick sample of easy arguments to be made for frivolous lawsuits and how ridiculous it all is.
thing is, this isn't a ruling. it's a jury decision, and it's common knowledge that it's a total crap shoot whether juries will actually apply the law anywhere close to correctly to the facts they're shown.
what'll really be interesting is if/when there's an opinion on this written from a Court of Appeals judge. if she upholds this verdict, that'll be big, big news.
everyone who says that "BL" immediately made them think of "GTGIU" misses the point. it only should've been about the compositions, & I don't see how the Gayes' expert musicologists could be convincing about how the compositions are substantially similar.
biggest takeaway: if the artist being sued is going to be extremely unlikable to a jury, just settle.
Sample, cover, and imitate to your hearts content, just make sure you (or your record company) can pay the bill.
Otherwise, "it aint a crime if you dont get caught".
Blurred lines is incredibly similar to Got to give it up; its the first thing I thought of when i first heard it, and thicke and co tried to get a little too slick. I happen to agree with this verdict. Wether or not this is 'a bad thing for music/creativity' remains to be seen. I call bullshit.
Record store guys circle jerking in smug mutual approvement on an old ass website, now there's a victory for blandness.
Rage on dude, but I guarantee you that at least 75% of the music you ride for is "incredibly similar" to some earlier music and could also get sued on the same grounds.
But you don't hate those people so that wouldn't be right.
like I said - whether or not this is in fact a copyright infringement under the letter of the law or not, Thicke has been covering/ripping off Gaye for a while now (even that trouble man rip off isnt touted a as a gaye cover, you have to read the small print to figure that out - hes still passing it off as his song imo), and blurred lines is just the latest bite in that vein. For him to flat-out deny and preemptively sue in this instance seems totally out of line and unnecessary as he should have just settled and move on.
So yeah, this bitch slap of an outcome seems well deserved imo.
I guess it will be a while before we hear the next gaye inspired thicke 'homage'.
like I said - whether or not this is in fact a copyright infringement under the letter of the law or not, Thicke has been covering/ripping off Gaye for a while now (even that trouble man rip off isnt touted a as a gaye cover, you have to read the small print to figure that out - hes still passing it off as his song imo), and blurred lines is just the latest bite in that vein. For him to flat-out deny and preemptively sue in this instance seems totally out of line and unnecessary as he should have just settled and move on.
So yeah, this bitch slap of an outcome seems well deserved imo.
I guess it will be a while before we hear the next gaye inspired thicke 'homage'.
as for Bruno Mars Usher et al getting sued -
Ahhh, got it, I misunderstood you.
I thought we were talking about copyright law and creative license. You're actually saying something much simpler -- it's ok to interpret and build on the sound of the artists that preceded you, just as long as Staxwax doesn't think you're a lame.
I thought we were talking about copyright law and creative license. You're actually saying something much simpler -- it's ok to interpret and build on the sound of the artists that preceded you, just as long as Staxwax doesn't think you're a lame.
That makes [em]much[/em] more sense.
'interpret and build on'
Ahaha, yup.
I take it the thread title ROBIN THICKE BURN IN HELL mislead you into thinking this would be a finely balanced debate on copyright law and creative license. Doh!
The opinions expressed here represent my own and [em]not[/em] those approved by a committee of musical legal eagles wringing their hands in agony at the misfortune this outcome represents for the arts. Ohh, the precedent, the precedent.
the reason for the pre-emptive suit was that the parties involved could not agree on a settlement amount. saying that "they just should've settled" is like saying "the Yankees would have won if only A-Rod had hit two more homers".
everyone knows the Gaye estate is extremely expensive. Even the original clearance being demanded was 5-10x what big, well-known publishing concerns charge. the pre-emptive suit was a bad idea but they were going to get taken to the cleaners regardless. obviously, they should've paid the exhorbitant clearance and kept it moving. I don't think you can blame them for having an what was up until this point an accurate understanding of copyright law, though.
Gaye's family apparently is going to go after "Happy" for sounding like "Ain't That Peculiar" now. Of course, the elements they share can be found in literally hundreds of soul songs. But that will be the legacy of this ridiculous verdict.
I am sure you are right about why this went to trail.
I agree that it is a ridiculous verdict in the common sense sense.
In the legal sense, if this is indeed a "ridiculous verdict" it will be over turned on appeal.
Even if it is not a RV the $ amount will most likely be lowered on appeal.
The MGE lawyers were most likely working on contingency. They would not have gone to trail unless they were convinced they had a strong case.
The defendants would not have gone to trail unless they (and their attorneys who were working for fee) thought they had a strong case.
Personally I think our copyright laws are due for an overhaul.
Copyrights are important. "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." says the Constitution.
Today's laws distort the meaning of 'limited'.
Today's laws hamper the 'progress of useful arts'.
Today's laws extend the meaning of authors to include their heirs.
IMO
"The Congress first exercised its copyright powers with the Copyright Act of 1790. This act granted authors the exclusive right to publish and vend "maps, charts and books" for a term of 14 years. This 14 year term was renewable for one additional 14 year term, if the author was alive at the end of the first time. With exception of the provision on maps and charts the Copyright Act of 1790 is copied almost verbatim from the Statute of Anne.[3]"
anyhow
didn't berry gordy extort and rob most of his artists?
I reckon that marvin must've had a sweetheart deal thru marriage for the estate to be gripping so hard?
The way I understand it, Gordy had a paternalistic control over many of his artists.
What Mary Wilson describes in her book is an example. After a string of hits the members of the Supremes were told to go find a house. They each found big house in an upscale neighborhood. Motown bought the houses for them. They were given credit cards to all the Detroit department stores. They could spend as much as they liked, and Motown picked up the bills. Of course a fair contract would have bought all that, plus put money in the bank.
HDH were paid millions by Motown. But they never received royalty checks. Just salary and bonuses. Around 1970 everyone started asking for accounting*. HDH sued for accounting and found they were owed millions more. They settled and left the company.
As record companies go they were better than most independents, not much worse than most majors.
Lots of Motown stars have different gripes, but I don't think any say extort and rob.
*There are no RIAA gold records for 60s Motown hits because RIAA demands documentation of units sold.
“Pharrell has readily admitted that Marvin Gaye is one of his idols, but it’s silk and rayon,” King said in his statement. “If this is the way the law is going to go, then the creator of rayon better look behind him for lawsuits from the owners of silk, because, even though they feel the same they are structurally, completely different just like these songs.”
I thought it sounded like Marvin the first time I herd it but assumed they had paid for some sort of sampling replay. Given that touble man song it seems pretty obvious thicke has to know he's ripping off Marvin. He didnt help his case saying he was too high to remember.
The bigger issue is that the judge established some sort of new precedent where you can sure for "feel" which is a very slippery slop. If that's the case James Browns estate can go ballistic on every funk band ever.
"The Ninth Circuit's test for measuring similarity in copyright cases is whether the ordinary observer would consider the two works substantially similar in their 'total concept and feel.' "
Personally I think our copyright laws are due for an overhaul.
Copyrights are important. "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." says the Constitution.
Today's laws distort the meaning of 'limited'.
Today's laws hamper the 'progress of useful arts'.
Today's laws extend the meaning of authors to include their heirs.
IMO
"The Congress first exercised its copyright powers with the Copyright Act of 1790. This act granted authors the exclusive right to publish and vend "maps, charts and books" for a term of 14 years. This 14 year term was renewable for one additional 14 year term, if the author was alive at the end of the first time. With exception of the provision on maps and charts the Copyright Act of 1790 is copied almost verbatim from the Statute of Anne.[3]"
I would support something along these lines.
You can thank Walt Disney for the extension of CR protection.
A few years ago I went to a 2 yr. old's birthday party at Alan Thicke's house in Hollywood. It was Alan's grandson. Not from Robin, but from Robin's brother, who was the voice of Dennis The Menace in the 1980s. It was a pool party. I swam, and even peed in Alan Thicke's toilet. His ex-wife was an actress on Days of Our Lives. I recognized her from when I was a kid and my mom used to watch that show.
Robin Thicke did not attend. Neither did kirk Cameron.
Comments
You can't even copyright a chord progression (think every blues song ever). Traditionally it's only melody and lyrics, neither of which apply in this case.
I'm still trying to figure out this ruling.
The Gaye family claimed the bassline and cowbell were copied (which should be meaningless legally even if that were true, which it's not), and the jury was told that it didn't have to be identical to be infringement.
Williams knew exactly what he was doing, which parts he could take and what had to be altered. He basically took GTGIU and removed the traditionally legally protected parts. It's what he does, and he's deft at it. I'm still in shock at this ruling.
Sample, cover, and imitate to your hearts content, just make sure you (or your record company) can pay the bill.
Otherwise, "it aint a crime if you dont get caught".
Blurred lines is incredibly similar to Got to give it up; its the first thing I thought of when i first heard it, and thicke and co tried to get a little too slick. I happen to agree with this verdict. Wether or not this is 'a bad thing for music/creativity' remains to be seen. I call bullshit.
Record store guys circle jerking in smug mutual approvement on an old ass website, now there's a victory for blandness.
"The Ninth Circuit's test for measuring similarity in copyright cases is whether the ordinary observer would consider the two works substantially similar in their 'total concept and feel.' "
Which is different from what I had read elsewhere.
LOL
You're the one who started by posting a video where the artist did give proper credit on the album for that particular track.
But by your standard all these songs are stolen because of similarity of some sort.
By your standards, a lot of artist are assholes. Example, Bruno Mars is fucked...
Oh crap Usher. Watch out for Homer suit.
That's a quick sample of easy arguments to be made for frivolous lawsuits and how ridiculous it all is.
what'll really be interesting is if/when there's an opinion on this written from a Court of Appeals judge. if she upholds this verdict, that'll be big, big news.
everyone who says that "BL" immediately made them think of "GTGIU" misses the point. it only should've been about the compositions, & I don't see how the Gayes' expert musicologists could be convincing about how the compositions are substantially similar.
biggest takeaway: if the artist being sued is going to be extremely unlikable to a jury, just settle.
Really unbelievable, especially from supposed hip hp fans. Shameful, reflexive sheet.
Rage on dude, but I guarantee you that at least 75% of the music you ride for is "incredibly similar" to some earlier music and could also get sued on the same grounds.
But you don't hate those people so that wouldn't be right.
So yeah, this bitch slap of an outcome seems well deserved imo.
I guess it will be a while before we hear the next gaye inspired thicke 'homage'.
as for Bruno Mars Usher et al getting sued -
Ahhh, got it, I misunderstood you.
I thought we were talking about copyright law and creative license. You're actually saying something much simpler -- it's ok to interpret and build on the sound of the artists that preceded you, just as long as Staxwax doesn't think you're a lame.
That makes [em]much[/em] more sense.
'interpret and build on'
Ahaha, yup.
I take it the thread title ROBIN THICKE BURN IN HELL mislead you into thinking this would be a finely balanced debate on copyright law and creative license. Doh!
The opinions expressed here represent my own and [em]not[/em] those approved by a committee of musical legal eagles wringing their hands in agony at the misfortune this outcome represents for the arts. Ohh, the precedent, the precedent.
Settling is what happens in 99.9% of copyright disputes.
We never hear or know about them.
There are claims filed against every hit song.
everyone knows the Gaye estate is extremely expensive. Even the original clearance being demanded was 5-10x what big, well-known publishing concerns charge. the pre-emptive suit was a bad idea but they were going to get taken to the cleaners regardless. obviously, they should've paid the exhorbitant clearance and kept it moving. I don't think you can blame them for having an what was up until this point an accurate understanding of copyright law, though.
Gaye's family apparently is going to go after "Happy" for sounding like "Ain't That Peculiar" now. Of course, the elements they share can be found in literally hundreds of soul songs. But that will be the legacy of this ridiculous verdict.
I am sure you are right about why this went to trail.
I agree that it is a ridiculous verdict in the common sense sense.
In the legal sense, if this is indeed a "ridiculous verdict" it will be over turned on appeal.
Even if it is not a RV the $ amount will most likely be lowered on appeal.
The MGE lawyers were most likely working on contingency. They would not have gone to trail unless they were convinced they had a strong case.
The defendants would not have gone to trail unless they (and their attorneys who were working for fee) thought they had a strong case.
Personally I think our copyright laws are due for an overhaul.
Copyrights are important. "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." says the Constitution.
Today's laws distort the meaning of 'limited'.
Today's laws hamper the 'progress of useful arts'.
Today's laws extend the meaning of authors to include their heirs.
IMO
"The Congress first exercised its copyright powers with the Copyright Act of 1790. This act granted authors the exclusive right to publish and vend "maps, charts and books" for a term of 14 years. This 14 year term was renewable for one additional 14 year term, if the author was alive at the end of the first time. With exception of the provision on maps and charts the Copyright Act of 1790 is copied almost verbatim from the Statute of Anne.[3]"
I would support something along these lines.
didn't berry gordy extort and rob most of his artists?
I reckon that marvin must've had a sweetheart deal thru marriage for the estate to be gripping so hard?
What Mary Wilson describes in her book is an example. After a string of hits the members of the Supremes were told to go find a house. They each found big house in an upscale neighborhood. Motown bought the houses for them. They were given credit cards to all the Detroit department stores. They could spend as much as they liked, and Motown picked up the bills. Of course a fair contract would have bought all that, plus put money in the bank.
HDH were paid millions by Motown. But they never received royalty checks. Just salary and bonuses. Around 1970 everyone started asking for accounting*. HDH sued for accounting and found they were owed millions more. They settled and left the company.
As record companies go they were better than most independents, not much worse than most majors.
Lots of Motown stars have different gripes, but I don't think any say extort and rob.
*There are no RIAA gold records for 60s Motown hits because RIAA demands documentation of units sold.
How you gonna go against Stevie.
Pharrell's lawyer came up with a helluva analogy:
“Pharrell has readily admitted that Marvin Gaye is one of his idols, but it’s silk and rayon,” King said in his statement. “If this is the way the law is going to go, then the creator of rayon better look behind him for lawsuits from the owners of silk, because, even though they feel the same they are structurally, completely different just like these songs.”
The bigger issue is that the judge established some sort of new precedent where you can sure for "feel" which is a very slippery slop. If that's the case James Browns estate can go ballistic on every funk band ever.
You can thank Walt Disney for the extension of CR protection.
Robin Thicke did not attend. Neither did kirk Cameron.
Blurred Lines: Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams to pay $5m in final verdict