He could tell the truth.
He could apologize to the family.
What would really impress me would be if the blue wall of silence came down.
Any of that would change my mind.
Maybe, but one side is dead and the other isn't talking.
i mean really,
do you actually think there is anything this cop could possibly say which would change people's minds?
"Oh wow Officer Wilson, why didn't you say so earlier! OK everyone, we can go home now... sorry for the mess!"
You're right, there is nothing you can say to rationalize killing an unarmed citizen. I don't care if the suspect is accused if cornholing a crippled kid, you arrest them. You do not execute them without trial. If 2 police officers cannot subdue/restrain a suspect without deadly force, then they are not fit to serve. simple.
do you actually think there is anything this cop could possibly say which would change people's minds?
Which people would you be referring to?
The ones who are pissed off because a kid was killed for no apparent reason, by the same people who are assigned to the protection of his community, with no cogent explanation and a lot of unanswered questions?;
Or the ones who don't think this is a problem because [insert variation of the "He must have done something to deserve it" or What about {some tangential issue} arguments here]?
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
BallzDeep said:
do you actually think there is anything this cop could possibly say which would change people's minds?
Which people would you be referring to?
The ones who are pissed off because a kid was killed for no apparent reason, by the same people who are assigned to the protection of his community, with no cogent explanation and a lot of unanswered questions?;
Or the ones who don't think this is a problem because [insert variation of the "He must have done something to deserve it" or What about {some tangential issue} arguments here]?
Hey Fred,
I love the questions you raised. The issue is that some White people need to believe in a just world because this myth justifies their privileged position in society. Obliteration of the myth forces the dominant group to acknowledge that privilege partially explains their higher status. These same folks subscribe to the 'bootstraps' ideology, but I always ask, "What if the folks you're referring to don't have boots?" All of these ideas are subconscious, and those who subscribe to the 'just world' myth will voraciously defend them. This explains why, in spite of the facts presented, these individuals will never be able to take the victim's perspective. It's like my conversation with the waitress I described in my earlier post. She cannot acknowledge that some police personnel mistreat Black folks without cause. It's a difficult worldview to shake and it keeps the races in this country divided and will continue to do so.
^ thank you for articulating thatBig Stacks from Kakalak. Sometimes it helps to think of social psychology from an organizational perspective...
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
ketan said:
^ thank you for articulating thatBig Stacks from Kakalak. Sometimes it helps to think of social psychology from an organizational perspective...
Hey Ketan,
Thanks!!! I have to remind some folks in my circle (who look like me) that we had some advantages that allowed us to achieve what we have. It's a lot easier to make it in the world when you have resources (and support) at your disposal. Personally, my extended family is a sociological experiment as the full gamut of social positions are represented, from drug addicts and current or ex-cons to businesspeople and doctors; however, there are astronomical differences in the beginning circumstances of people at those poles of the status continuum that (to a large degree) explain their current position in life. At the end of the day, it's about humility and being grateful for the breaks that we've received. The bigger point is that it would be grand if more people had access to the means of success in this country (check out this book related to the issue: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/savage-inequalities-jonathan-kozol/1100477164?ean=9780770435684) . Then, the 'myth of meritocracy' wouldn't be so mythical.
What I am about to say is in no way a defense of Officer Wilson nor justification for why this young man or anyone else is killed by a policeman. ItÔÇÖs not a claim that the police are always right or honest. It is simply an attempt on my part to try to understand this issue beyond ÔÇ£racist cop purposefully kills unarmed manÔÇØ. ItÔÇÖs difficult to simplify either side of a story like this. There are scumbag criminal cops who deserve to be and are in jail and there are scumbag criminals who deserve to be and are killed by law enforcement. If you donÔÇÖt agree with that statement you probably shouldnÔÇÖt read any further. And please realize that I have no idea what itÔÇÖs like to be a black man or woman anymore than I understand what itÔÇÖs like to be a cop.
So I have to ask myself if a person like Officer Wilson just woke up one day, after 6 years on the job, and decided he was going to kill someone that day. The obvious and reasonable answer is no. So why did it happen? This is a question I have asked many people over the last week, people of all races and ages and the consensus answer was that he was scared. So that begs the question why the fuck is a police officer who carries a gun scared in this, or any other situation. My conversations brought me to a few different conclusions.
1) Poor training: Police Academy typically takes anywhere from 6-24 weeks. This is not nearly enough time to teach an officer how to act in every possible situation. Nor is it really enough time to figure out the psyche or character of a person. To put this in perspective I look at the medical profession where there is 8-12 years of school and on the job training. This is also a profession where human lives are put in the hands of doctors who take a pledge to protect and serve. Yet every single doctor out there is mandated to have malpractice insurance because they WILL make a mistake at some point and it could very likely cost a human life.
2) Danger: Over the last 10 years a law enforcement agent has been killed on the job in the U.S. every 58 hours. I canÔÇÖt imagine knowing this and not thinking about it every day I go to work. Maybe thatÔÇÖs why I could never be a cop but these folks are human and I canÔÇÖt imagine this would not be the thoughts of any rational human who values their life. Our society holds police to a higher standard which I totally understand but at the end of the day they are humans and flawed like all the rest of us.
3) Adversarial position: In many cities and neighborhoods the police are ÔÇ£the enemyÔÇØ. I am certain that there have been many incidents that warrant this feeling. ItÔÇÖs echoed on this very site often. Sometimes they are the enemy for simply doing their job correctly and sometimes itÔÇÖs because they are scumbags on a power trip. If there are any ÔÇ£goodÔÇØ cops, and I believe that most are, they are included in the cries of ÔÇ£Kill The PigsÔÇØ and ÔÇ£Fuck The PoliceÔÇØ. This type of disrespect will NEVER turn a bad cop good but it certainly can turn a good cop bad as it becomes an ÔÇ£us against themÔÇØ mentality. In my mind this stereotypical treatment would make a good cop scared and when youÔÇÖre scared youÔÇÖre going to do stupid shit.
So how do you fix this problem? The first and easiest thing to do is identify the officers who are unfit for the job and eliminate them. Here in Dallas our police chief has terminated more than 20 officers for various violations which in itself is a sad commentary on the quality of officers. The number one police candidate is ex-military who come into the job having already been trained to kill the enemy. My goal would be to attract a better quality of candidate, but how? Most of us who recognize the problem and understand what it takes to be a good policeman would never take the job. Personally I would never take a job where my life is on the line daily and the community I am to serve hates me for $35K a year.no thanks.
The question I keep asking myself is why would someone want to become a cop. I keep coming up with three reasons. Because they are power hungry bullies, because they want to truly help a community and because they canÔÇÖt get a better job with their particular skill set. I donÔÇÖt see that changing anytime soon. You can try to weed out the first but at the end of the day the real solution is gaining a mutual respect between a community who sometimes looks up to the very criminals who the police are paid to arrest and a police force who have overstepped their bounds at times losing the respect of the law abiding citizens.
ItÔÇÖs easy and somehow empowering to sit behind your computer or be in the streets saying ÔÇ£Fuck The PoliceÔÇØ but what I am more interested in hearing are well thought out realistic ideas on how to solve the problem. And this solution would be one that would not only better protect the lives of us citizens but the lives of the police as well. If your attitude is ÔÇ£fuck the policeÔÇØ IÔÇÖm really not interested in what you have to say.
The loss of any innocent life at the hands of another human is tragic. It happens way too much in our society. ThatÔÇÖs the big picture we should be focused on in my opinion. The death of Michael Brown was a tragedy and I feel like many of you that justice needs to be served. But I also think we need to step back and try to understand both sides of the equation because if we donÔÇÖt the problem will never be solved and will probably get worse.
Those of you who want to take this opportunity to take potshots at me don't waste your time...I will not respond. The above are my honest thoughts on the situation after many discussions, not some article that I read online. . It's your right to disagree but I will not entertain your jackassery.
The police won't be scared of being shot, and the people won't be scared of being shot by the police. Everyone's happy, except for the same folks Staks identifies as those who are clinging to power, whether the unfair social position they hold or the power to kill somebody at their finger tips.
Other countries with tight gun laws have police that don't carry guns, and guess what, it's not total anarchy.
As America insists on being the world's biggest arms dealer, all of the guns confiscated will save the tax payer billions.
2) Danger: Over the last 10 years a law enforcement agent has been killed on the job in the U.S. every 58 hours. I canÔÇÖt imagine knowing this and not thinking about it every day I go to work.
That's a little misleading (and that stat comes from Michelle Malkin of all people?). 31 cops were shot in 2013. 28 died in car crashes. You get the picture.
This is an accurate breakdown of the last 10 years.
I guess the answer is as obvious as it is simple: Don't let any idiot become a cop. Weed out the sociopaths, the bullies, the mentally challenged and the emotionally disturbed, send them off to some war instead and hope they don't come back... and if they do come back, like the imbecile in the video below then give them a job at a car wash or some shit or lobotomize them and lock them away but don't give them a gun and a shield.
The main problem is that in order to have a qualified police force that's void of mental cases and to make the profession attractive for regular people you'd have to pay them much better...
Maybe, but one side is dead and the other isn't talking.
i mean really,
do you actually think there is anything this cop could possibly say which would change people's minds?
"Oh wow Officer Wilson, why didn't you say so earlier! OK everyone, we can go home now... sorry for the mess!"
You're right, there is nothing you can say to rationalize killing an unarmed citizen.
Who may have assaulted the cop? And may have charged at the cop before getting shot?
I mean, unless these eye witness accounts are incorrect or false, that's the information I'm reading.
And Browns friend who has seemed to completely change his story?
Are these incorrect?
And the "unarmed" part... how's the cop to know this without a pat down? Can cops see thru clothes?
Rock brings up some good points.
I'm all for eliminating the jerkoffs on the force and not hiring new ones,
but man, what a daunting task that would be.
Of course it's possible, but you've got a humongous number of people w/ issues that won't give 'em up without prising the guns from their cold dead hands.
2) Danger: Over the last 10 years a law enforcement agent has been killed on the job in the U.S. every 58 hours. I canÔÇÖt imagine knowing this and not thinking about it every day I go to work.
That's a little misleading (and that stat comes from Michelle Malkin of all people?). 31 cops were shot in 2013. 28 died in car crashes. You get the picture.
This is an accurate breakdown of the last 10 years.
I have no comment on the rest of your post, but thought it was important to clear that up.
I'm saying. I saw that one every 58 hour number and knew I was being fed nonsense.
Officer Wilson didn't act scared. He acted angry.
I think the military is very good training for police officers.
In the military soldiers are taught only to shoot the enemy.
In Afghanistan, and before in Iraq, the occupying forces were to only return fire.
They were to hold there fire if the were threatened or scared. And the were scared and threatened all the time.
Unlike the police force we have seen soldiers tried, and convicted, for murder, for shooting unarmed civilians.
PTSD and TBI are serious problems, but most vets are well qualified to be police.
I believe that most cops, most days, are good cops.
What makes most cops bad cops is the blue wall of silence.
In Portland when an officer has broken that wall they have been forced off the force.
Of course it's possible, but you've got a humongous number of people w/ issues that won't give 'em up without prising the guns from their cold dead hands.
I would like to hear how you would go about doing this. Not ever selling another gun ever again ... Piece of cake . But how would you go about confiscating the gazillion guns that are already out there in the hands of both legal and illegal owners ?
2) Danger: Over the last 10 years a law enforcement agent has been killed on the job in the U.S. every 58 hours. I canÔÇÖt imagine knowing this and not thinking about it every day I go to work.
That's a little misleading (and that stat comes from Michelle Malkin of all people?). 31 cops were shot in 2013. 28 died in car crashes. You get the picture.
This is an accurate breakdown of the last 10 years.
I have no comment on the rest of your post, but thought it was important to clear that up.
Just so we are on the same page I obtained that statistic from the IUPA, not Michelle Malkin. You are correct that during that time a cop has been murdered at the rate of "only" one a week. The other deaths came from car pursuits, being hit while on the side of the road and other accidents while in the process of performing their duties. I didn't claim otherwise. That same source reports that more than 65,000 police officers are assaulted each year and some 23,000 are injured annually. My point was not to use this as a comparative scorecard but to make the point that the job is dangerous and can induce fear.
Laserwolf - Why do you think this officer chose this time and place to exert anger after 6 years of an apparently clean tenure on the force? Do you know of any other instances where this officer was reported on by a citizen of showed anger towards one? I did find a story from February where he was given a commendation for restraining a suspect. I don't want police who are scared or angry...neither will have good results.
Duh Obama is gonna take all our guns (don't you read the internets)
Day's post is important. It is more dangerous to live as a citizen in Baltimore (to choose just one city) than to be a cop. Jobs that are more dangerous than policing include being a truck driver, a fisherman, a roofer and a garbage collector. I get that it is a dangerous job but it is the only job in the nation where you have a right to kill. That right requires far more caution, training, and reverence than is currently being exercised or asked.
Rich - if you have a couple hours free I recommend checking out the Corey "Life" Pegues episode of the Combat Jack podcast. Dude was a member of the Supreme Team (notorious drug gang in Southeast Queens), got out of the game and eventually joined the NYPD, rising to high ranks before his recent retirement.. Had some very nuanced and illuminating observations about the current situation.
Comments
I smell indictment.
http://mic.com/articles/97012/here-s-the-long-awaited-police-report-on-the-mike-brown-shooting
An incident report with nothing but the location and name of the victim?
A blank report.
You're giving them too much credit. It's a cover-up. The blue wall has gone up.
You're giving them too much credit. It's a cover-up. The blue wall has gone up.
yeah it's all horseshit on both sides.
i'm going to tune out of the whole debacle right quick.
Maybe, but one side is dead and the other isn't talking.
i mean really,
do you actually think there is anything this cop could possibly say which would change people's minds?
"Oh wow Officer Wilson, why didn't you say so earlier! OK everyone, we can go home now... sorry for the mess!"
He could apologize to the family.
What would really impress me would be if the blue wall of silence came down.
Any of that would change my mind.
You're right, there is nothing you can say to rationalize killing an unarmed citizen. I don't care if the suspect is accused if cornholing a crippled kid, you arrest them. You do not execute them without trial. If 2 police officers cannot subdue/restrain a suspect without deadly force, then they are not fit to serve. simple.
The ones who are pissed off because a kid was killed for no apparent reason, by the same people who are assigned to the protection of his community, with no cogent explanation and a lot of unanswered questions?;
Or the ones who don't think this is a problem because [insert variation of the "He must have done something to deserve it" or What about {some tangential issue} arguments here]?
Hey Fred,
I love the questions you raised. The issue is that some White people need to believe in a just world because this myth justifies their privileged position in society. Obliteration of the myth forces the dominant group to acknowledge that privilege partially explains their higher status. These same folks subscribe to the 'bootstraps' ideology, but I always ask, "What if the folks you're referring to don't have boots?" All of these ideas are subconscious, and those who subscribe to the 'just world' myth will voraciously defend them. This explains why, in spite of the facts presented, these individuals will never be able to take the victim's perspective. It's like my conversation with the waitress I described in my earlier post. She cannot acknowledge that some police personnel mistreat Black folks without cause. It's a difficult worldview to shake and it keeps the races in this country divided and will continue to do so.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Hey Ketan,
Thanks!!! I have to remind some folks in my circle (who look like me) that we had some advantages that allowed us to achieve what we have. It's a lot easier to make it in the world when you have resources (and support) at your disposal. Personally, my extended family is a sociological experiment as the full gamut of social positions are represented, from drug addicts and current or ex-cons to businesspeople and doctors; however, there are astronomical differences in the beginning circumstances of people at those poles of the status continuum that (to a large degree) explain their current position in life. At the end of the day, it's about humility and being grateful for the breaks that we've received. The bigger point is that it would be grand if more people had access to the means of success in this country (check out this book related to the issue: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/savage-inequalities-jonathan-kozol/1100477164?ean=9780770435684) . Then, the 'myth of meritocracy' wouldn't be so mythical.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
So I have to ask myself if a person like Officer Wilson just woke up one day, after 6 years on the job, and decided he was going to kill someone that day. The obvious and reasonable answer is no. So why did it happen? This is a question I have asked many people over the last week, people of all races and ages and the consensus answer was that he was scared. So that begs the question why the fuck is a police officer who carries a gun scared in this, or any other situation. My conversations brought me to a few different conclusions.
1) Poor training: Police Academy typically takes anywhere from 6-24 weeks. This is not nearly enough time to teach an officer how to act in every possible situation. Nor is it really enough time to figure out the psyche or character of a person. To put this in perspective I look at the medical profession where there is 8-12 years of school and on the job training. This is also a profession where human lives are put in the hands of doctors who take a pledge to protect and serve. Yet every single doctor out there is mandated to have malpractice insurance because they WILL make a mistake at some point and it could very likely cost a human life.
2) Danger: Over the last 10 years a law enforcement agent has been killed on the job in the U.S. every 58 hours. I canÔÇÖt imagine knowing this and not thinking about it every day I go to work. Maybe thatÔÇÖs why I could never be a cop but these folks are human and I canÔÇÖt imagine this would not be the thoughts of any rational human who values their life. Our society holds police to a higher standard which I totally understand but at the end of the day they are humans and flawed like all the rest of us.
3) Adversarial position: In many cities and neighborhoods the police are ÔÇ£the enemyÔÇØ. I am certain that there have been many incidents that warrant this feeling. ItÔÇÖs echoed on this very site often. Sometimes they are the enemy for simply doing their job correctly and sometimes itÔÇÖs because they are scumbags on a power trip. If there are any ÔÇ£goodÔÇØ cops, and I believe that most are, they are included in the cries of ÔÇ£Kill The PigsÔÇØ and ÔÇ£Fuck The PoliceÔÇØ. This type of disrespect will NEVER turn a bad cop good but it certainly can turn a good cop bad as it becomes an ÔÇ£us against themÔÇØ mentality. In my mind this stereotypical treatment would make a good cop scared and when youÔÇÖre scared youÔÇÖre going to do stupid shit.
So how do you fix this problem? The first and easiest thing to do is identify the officers who are unfit for the job and eliminate them. Here in Dallas our police chief has terminated more than 20 officers for various violations which in itself is a sad commentary on the quality of officers. The number one police candidate is ex-military who come into the job having already been trained to kill the enemy. My goal would be to attract a better quality of candidate, but how? Most of us who recognize the problem and understand what it takes to be a good policeman would never take the job. Personally I would never take a job where my life is on the line daily and the community I am to serve hates me for $35K a year.no thanks.
The question I keep asking myself is why would someone want to become a cop. I keep coming up with three reasons. Because they are power hungry bullies, because they want to truly help a community and because they canÔÇÖt get a better job with their particular skill set. I donÔÇÖt see that changing anytime soon. You can try to weed out the first but at the end of the day the real solution is gaining a mutual respect between a community who sometimes looks up to the very criminals who the police are paid to arrest and a police force who have overstepped their bounds at times losing the respect of the law abiding citizens.
ItÔÇÖs easy and somehow empowering to sit behind your computer or be in the streets saying ÔÇ£Fuck The PoliceÔÇØ but what I am more interested in hearing are well thought out realistic ideas on how to solve the problem. And this solution would be one that would not only better protect the lives of us citizens but the lives of the police as well. If your attitude is ÔÇ£fuck the policeÔÇØ IÔÇÖm really not interested in what you have to say.
The loss of any innocent life at the hands of another human is tragic. It happens way too much in our society. ThatÔÇÖs the big picture we should be focused on in my opinion. The death of Michael Brown was a tragedy and I feel like many of you that justice needs to be served. But I also think we need to step back and try to understand both sides of the equation because if we donÔÇÖt the problem will never be solved and will probably get worse.
Those of you who want to take this opportunity to take potshots at me don't waste your time...I will not respond. The above are my honest thoughts on the situation after many discussions, not some article that I read online. . It's your right to disagree but I will not entertain your jackassery.
The police won't be scared of being shot, and the people won't be scared of being shot by the police. Everyone's happy, except for the same folks Staks identifies as those who are clinging to power, whether the unfair social position they hold or the power to kill somebody at their finger tips.
Other countries with tight gun laws have police that don't carry guns, and guess what, it's not total anarchy.
As America insists on being the world's biggest arms dealer, all of the guns confiscated will save the tax payer billions.
That's a little misleading (and that stat comes from Michelle Malkin of all people?). 31 cops were shot in 2013. 28 died in car crashes. You get the picture.
This is an accurate breakdown of the last 10 years.
http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/causes.html
I have no comment on the rest of your post, but thought it was important to clear that up.
The main problem is that in order to have a qualified police force that's void of mental cases and to make the profession attractive for regular people you'd have to pay them much better...
the problem:
the solution:
Who may have assaulted the cop? And may have charged at the cop before getting shot?
I mean, unless these eye witness accounts are incorrect or false, that's the information I'm reading.
And Browns friend who has seemed to completely change his story?
Are these incorrect?
And the "unarmed" part... how's the cop to know this without a pat down? Can cops see thru clothes?
Is this even possible?
Rock brings up some good points.
I'm all for eliminating the jerkoffs on the force and not hiring new ones,
but man, what a daunting task that would be.
Of course it's possible, but you've got a humongous number of people w/ issues that won't give 'em up without prising the guns from their cold dead hands.
edited
I'm saying. I saw that one every 58 hour number and knew I was being fed nonsense.
Officer Wilson didn't act scared. He acted angry.
I think the military is very good training for police officers.
In the military soldiers are taught only to shoot the enemy.
In Afghanistan, and before in Iraq, the occupying forces were to only return fire.
They were to hold there fire if the were threatened or scared. And the were scared and threatened all the time.
Unlike the police force we have seen soldiers tried, and convicted, for murder, for shooting unarmed civilians.
PTSD and TBI are serious problems, but most vets are well qualified to be police.
I believe that most cops, most days, are good cops.
What makes most cops bad cops is the blue wall of silence.
In Portland when an officer has broken that wall they have been forced off the force.
but gangs, etc. will gladly hand them over?
Just so we are on the same page I obtained that statistic from the IUPA, not Michelle Malkin. You are correct that during that time a cop has been murdered at the rate of "only" one a week. The other deaths came from car pursuits, being hit while on the side of the road and other accidents while in the process of performing their duties. I didn't claim otherwise. That same source reports that more than 65,000 police officers are assaulted each year and some 23,000 are injured annually. My point was not to use this as a comparative scorecard but to make the point that the job is dangerous and can induce fear.
Laserwolf - Why do you think this officer chose this time and place to exert anger after 6 years of an apparently clean tenure on the force? Do you know of any other instances where this officer was reported on by a citizen of showed anger towards one? I did find a story from February where he was given a commendation for restraining a suspect. I don't want police who are scared or angry...neither will have good results.
Day's post is important. It is more dangerous to live as a citizen in Baltimore (to choose just one city) than to be a cop. Jobs that are more dangerous than policing include being a truck driver, a fisherman, a roofer and a garbage collector. I get that it is a dangerous job but it is the only job in the nation where you have a right to kill. That right requires far more caution, training, and reverence than is currently being exercised or asked.
Rich - if you have a couple hours free I recommend checking out the Corey "Life" Pegues episode of the Combat Jack podcast. Dude was a member of the Supreme Team (notorious drug gang in Southeast Queens), got out of the game and eventually joined the NYPD, rising to high ranks before his recent retirement.. Had some very nuanced and illuminating observations about the current situation.
Not by a million miles.