For all the people saying he makes "good" to even "great" beats (which I've always disagreed with)......
You know he's been getting EXTENSIVE help on his production since 2006, right? We're not talking session players and string sections, we're talking about shit like this:
There are four people credited to that beat. It's alright, but can someone explain to me why Kanye West needed three other people to make something that simple?
Oh and I'm kinda shocked how no one gives him credit as an MC in this day and age. He used to be almost exclusively cheesy on the mic in the College Dropout years, but he's definitely progressed in that lane. Might be the best mainstream rapper out today. For as much as I shit on his abilities as a producer, he earned his keep as a rapper IMO.
So he's dropping an album soon and says some crazy shit to garner attention. Y'all took the bait it seems.
He's hardly low-profile, album or not. Kanye stays drawing attention to himself, but what makes him different from other rappers is that he seems to operate without a filter. It's all coming directly from him instead of through a PR or a management lackey.
Indeed, he pretty much seems to let fly, regardless of whether he has an album coming or not. Although since it's highly unlikely that I'll buy it, I'm not sure if that actually counts as taking the bait.
DocMcCoy said:
In other words, if it's bullshit, at least it's sincere bullshit.
I will definitely take unedited bullshit over contrived bullshit any day.
DocMcCoy said:
I have to admit, though, I'm a little surprised to learn that displays of arrogance, egomania and self-aggrandisement now constitutes unacceptable behaviour for rappers.
No kidding, right? I think that's his real innovation though, that he's taken self-affirmation to new and eccentric heights. It's like some weird mashup of Jim Jones and Darryl Dawkins, without all the deaths and shattered basketball hoops.
Oh and I'm kinda shocked how no one gives him credit as an MC in this day and age. He used to be almost exclusively cheesy on the mic in the College Dropout years, but he's definitely progressed in that lane. Might be the best mainstream rapper out today. For as much as I shit on his abilities as a producer, he earned his keep as a rapper IMO.
I used to think he was a pretty weak MC but I agree he's much better now then people give him credit for and like it or not he is one of the few major deal rappers that is actually saying real life/socially conscious stuff at that high level of fame. Overall Kanye is good for rap and brings a balance to the Tygas and Rick Ross types of the current pop music landscape.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
Bowls said:
For all the people saying he makes "good" to even "great" beats (which I've always disagreed with)......
You know he's been getting EXTENSIVE help on his production since 2006, right? We're not talking session players and string sections, we're talking about shit like this:
There are four people credited to that beat. It's alright, but can someone explain to me why Kanye West needed three other people to make something that simple?
Oh and I'm kinda shocked how no one gives him credit as an MC in this day and age. He used to be almost exclusively cheesy on the mic in the College Dropout years, but he's definitely progressed in that lane. Might be the best mainstream rapper out today. For as much as I shit on his abilities as a producer, he earned his keep as a rapper IMO.
You seem to be implying that Kanye needs help with his beats, when just about everything he did prior to 2006 would seem to indicate otherwise.
What I think is the case here is that he simply isn't afraid to work with outside people and relinquish a degree of control over the creative process. Considering the extent to which hip-hop is a producer-driven medium - and to an extent it is, otherwise there wouldn't still be a string of indie rappers queuing up outside Premo's studio for a phoned-in beat in the vain hope of making their boring albums sound a little more interesting - that's a pretty brave and risky thing to do. Especially if you're a screaming egomaniac, as 'Ye supposedly is. It's not as if he's ever said, "Well, y'know, the reason [record x] kind of sucked was because of the other dude, I had nothing to do with that side of it." A set-up like the one he had with Jon Brion or Mike Dean or Just Blaze or anyone else on his side of the boards would enable him to do that pretty easily, I'd have thought.
As for the "three other people" remark, you're betraying a lack of familiarity with how that side of the game actually works. Everyone knows Dilla produced Janet Jackson's Got 'Til It's Gone, for example, but industry politics and Dilla's no-name status at the time meant there was no way he was getting even equal billing with Jam & Lewis or Tip. There are enduring rumours that Kanye had produced a number of international smash hits for Bad Boy long before he ever received a full "produced by" credit on one.
I've always liked him as a rapper. Not GOAT-status and never likely to be in truth, but consisently sharp, witty and entertaining. And yes, I'm a fan.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
white_tea said:
And, Harvey, if it would make you feel more comfortable, just get in here and say that UGK was too low in the Soulstrut #onehunna and exit the thread in peace.
Man, I'm larger than life
These motherfuckers ask, "Is it the bark or the bite?" It's both, chillin' on streets you scared to park on at night
Just forfeit just like I'm becoming part of the light
And you, man, you goin' to be the biggest mark at the fight
See, I never understood what made you think you was handlin'
You half-ass runnin' through my neighborhood vandlin'
Next time I'ma light your world up like a canon
Get some Italians to play your ass like a mandolin
It's nothing new though, he's been working his way to this point for years now. That's not to say he doesn't play it up somewhat. But I think he lost the line between mundane reality real life Kanye and crazy party all day every day greatest that ever was Kanye a long time ago.
I don't think you just wake up one morning and go from humble but talented dude, to claiming you're close to a god. Unless you're having some kind of manic episode. And with Kanye, like Doc said, those claims seem genuine enough.
This may be a bad example, but.. It's not like Lil B coming out with a lp titled 'I'm Gay', which he never truly seemed comfortable with. For all it's righteous intentions, it failed to come across as convincing, and he had to add 'I'm happy'. But when Kanye claims to be a god, or whatever, I can easily believe he means it.
Yer, I don't think it's some contrived publicity thing, he is just that crazy.
Yeah, he's just that crazy near the June 18th release date.
I think he's hamming it up and believes the things he says only to a degree. I know it's a funny thing to say about a guy who writers clever raps, but I feel like he is not that good at expressing himself in certain settings. It can't be easy articulating the jumble in his head for something as pedestrian and controlled as an interview.
You seem to be implying that Kanye needs help with his beats, when just about everything he did prior to 2006 would seem to indicate otherwise.
His solo MPC beats were always weak to me. Like they literally sounded cheap and flimsy. I can name a handful of really dope tracks he produced back then, namely "Grammy Family," but I was never one of those dudes who gave him a cookie just because he sampled old records (actually CDs he bought from Tower) in a post-Swizz Beats era. How are those "H to the Izzo" type beats sounding today? He was never able to make his drums bang (he used Dre's "Xxplosive" kit/pattern like six times), his sampling was rigid, and his sources were boring and obvious. He didn't know how to do it well enough, so.....
What I think is the case here is that he simply isn't afraid to work with outside people and relinquish a degree of control over the creative process. Considering the extent to which hip-hop is a producer-driven medium - and to an extent it is, otherwise there wouldn't still be a string of indie rappers queuing up outside Premo's studio for a phoned-in beat in the vain hope of making their boring albums sound a little more interesting - that's a pretty brave and risky thing to do. Especially if you're a screaming egomaniac, as 'Ye supposedly is. It's not as if he's ever said, "Well, y'know, the reason [record x] kind of sucked was because of the other dude, I had nothing to do with that side of it." A set-up like the one he had with Jon Brion or Mike Dean or Just Blaze or anyone else on his side of the boards would enable him to do that pretty easily, I'd have thought.
The Jon Brion collaboration was great and produced arguably his best work. Definitely the most musical, to my ears at least. But you knew immediately when the sound got thicker, because West was still supplying those anemic ass tracks that ALWAYS needed another element or two. Late Registration seemed like a natural expansion for Kanye's sound. But the shit he's been on the last few years? This latest "minimal" take on rap/pop? Why does this dude need five people to make a "minimal" sounding beat?
Oh and hip-hop is definitely producer driven, as is the electronic scene that Kanye's dabbled in. The thing is, damn near all these producers he employs can make those beats on their own. Besides a "vision" or whatever, I'm not exactly sure what Kanye himself can bring to the table production-wise. We're talking about a guy who had to farm out "Stronger" to Timbaland to "get the drums right."
As for the "three other people" remark, you're betraying a lack of familiarity with how that side of the game actually works. Everyone knows Dilla produced Janet Jackson's Got 'Til It's Gone, for example, but industry politics and Dilla's no-name status at the time meant there was no way he was getting even equal billing with Jam & Lewis or Tip. There are enduring rumours that Kanye had produced a number of international smash hits for Bad Boy long before he ever received a full "produced by" credit on one.
Dilla did that beat by himself and didn't get credit.
Kanye needed three other people to make a beat that involved drums, a piano sample, and a vocal drop - and he credited them all.
Different situations.
Oh and it's been confirmed that Kanye didn't do "All About The Benjamins." Curious to know which other beats his name has been attached to though.
I've always liked him as a rapper. Not GOAT-status and never likely to be in truth, but consisently sharp, witty and entertaining. And yes, I'm a fan.
Yeah I got on board after Late Registration. I thought College Dropout was average all-around so I'm glad he got good at something.
Yer, I don't think it's some contrived publicity thing, he is just that crazy.
Yeah, he's just that crazy near the June 18th release date.
I think he's hamming it up and believes the things he says only to a degree. I know it's a funny thing to say about a guy who writers clever raps, but I feel like he is not that good at expressing himself in certain settings. It can't be easy articulating the jumble in his head for something as pedestrian and controlled as an interview.
Is there any difference between Kanye's God talk and the %5 Nation MCs?
Or Jehovah - Jay-Z?
Yer, I don't think it's some contrived publicity thing, he is just that crazy.
Yeah, he's just that crazy near the June 18th release date.
I think he's hamming it up and believes the things he says only to a degree. I know it's a funny thing to say about a guy who writers clever raps, but I feel like he is not that good at expressing himself in certain settings. It can't be easy articulating the jumble in his head for something as pedestrian and controlled as an interview.
Is there any difference between Kanye's God talk and the %5 Nation MCs?
Or Jehovah - Jay-Z?
Yer, I don't think it's some contrived publicity thing, he is just that crazy.
Yeah, he's just that crazy near the June 18th release date.
I think he's hamming it up and believes the things he says only to a degree. I know it's a funny thing to say about a guy who writers clever raps, but I feel like he is not that good at expressing himself in certain settings. It can't be easy articulating the jumble in his head for something as pedestrian and controlled as an interview.
Is there any difference between Kanye's God talk and the %5 Nation MCs?
Or Jehovah - Jay-Z?
I dont get the OMG factor.
You beat me to it - it's not a new concept in rap. I guess because West doesn't fit the typical rap mould and it's couched in all the other stuff he's saying/doing that explains the OMG factor. Also, if enough people act like and treat you like you're a god, you might start believing it.
Yer, I don't think it's some contrived publicity thing, he is just that crazy.
Yeah, he's just that crazy near the June 18th release date.
Did the NYTimes call him or did his people call the Times to discuss the upcoming album?
C'mon Son.
When he played live in Sweden post MTDF, the show was 2 and a half hours long. About half an hour to an hour of that consisted of him giving long speeches of how the media treated him as a monster (especially irrelevant when he's halfway across the world, on stage in front of his fans), motivating the audience ("you can be a doctor! you can be a lawyer!" etc for WAY too long )and him "singing" distorted outros to songs (often a 5-10 minute sung outro to a 5 min song, while most of the audience cringed or looked at their watches).
I mean, it was still a good show, with ballerinas and extravagant craziness. But Kanye talks crazy in interviews building hype for his album AND on stage when he's already got your money. Yeah he might play it up a bit, but I don't think it's THAT calculated.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
Bowls said:
I was never one of those dudes who gave him a cookie just because he sampled old records (actually CDs he bought from Tower) in a post-Swizz Beats era. How are those "H to the Izzo" type beats sounding today? He was never able to make his drums bang (he used Dre's "Xxplosive" kit/pattern like six times), his sampling was rigid, and his sources were boring and obvious. He didn't know how to do it well enough, so.....
People jumped all over his ass on here when he posed on the cover of Scratch holding a copy of Let's Get It On with a $15 price tag - "Look at him, flossing dollar-bin records, fuckin' cornball..." I didn't give a fuck then and I don't give a fuck now. I couldn't care less whether he sampled old records, CDs, low-bitrate RealAudio files or field recordings. The Blueprint knocks pretty much front-to-back and is, IMO, one of the greatest albums ever made. Kanye had a lot to do with that.
The Jon Brion collaboration was great and produced arguably his best work. Definitely the most musical, to my ears at least. But you knew immediately when the sound got thicker, because West was still supplying those anemic ass tracks that ALWAYS needed another element or two. Late Registration seemed like a natural expansion for Kanye's sound. But the shit he's been on the last few years? This latest "minimal" take on rap/pop? Why does this dude need five people to make a "minimal" sounding beat?
Oh and hip-hop is definitely producer driven, as is the electronic scene that Kanye's dabbled in. The thing is, damn near all these producers he employs can make those beats on their own. Besides a "vision" or whatever, I'm not exactly sure what Kanye himself can bring to the table production-wise. We're talking about a guy who had to farm out "Stronger" to Timbaland to "get the drums right."
In other genres, the producer doesn't customarily produce every note of music on a record he or she produces. How many instruments do you think Phil Spector played on River Deep, Mountain High? How do you think it would have sounded if Ike Turner had produced it? Would it have been as big a hit? Would it have been one of the landmark pop records of the 1960s? This is where the vision comes in. That vision can involve bringing in a dude like Jon Brion, or it can mean that, when you're sat there thinking, "I need these drums to hit as hard as Timbaland's", you think, fuck it, let's just call Timbo. More significantly, he answers, because you're Kanye.
Having a "vision" can also mean that, if you've got five people in a room all chipping in on a project, you need to have a) an intimate enough knowledge of the politics of the game to know how important it is to the other four dudes that they get their name on the record too, and b) the wisdom to know that if you start acting all "I put this together! ME!!", demanding 100% of the shine/credit/royalties, they might not sign off on it, and you end up having to cut a track that's key to your record. It cuts the other way as well - "If I use your beat on my record, I want a co-producer credit too" - a lot of record producers do nothing more than push a few faders, shout a few instructions and make sure they're in the control room long enough to claim a credit.
Dilla did that beat by himself and didn't get credit.
That's what I said;
Everyone knows Dilla produced Janet Jackson's Got 'Til It's Gone, for example
Politics.
Kanye needed three other people to make a beat that involved drums, a piano sample, and a vocal drop - and he credited them all.
Different situations.
Well, yeah. It might have started out sounding completely different, for example. [Co-producer X]'s work might not have been used at all, even though he started work on the track. [Co-producer Y] might have been the one who brought in the piano sample. [Co-producer Z] might have been the dude who got the drums to knock just so. And Kanye might have been the dude that said, OK, now why don't we put it all together like this. The kind of thing a record producer might do, in other words. And everyone ends up being credited in the same way as contributors to the screenplay of a movie. Kanye might well have done very little of anything on the track. But the presence of other names in the credit field aren't irrefutable proof either way.
Oh and it's been confirmed that Kanye didn't do "All About The Benjamins." Curious to know which other beats his name has been attached to though.
Mo' Money, Mo' Problems was always rumoured to have been one of his.
He seems angrier than usual on the album. Not a bad thing, but man, I think he makes good music when he's in a more mellow mood too. I love that "White Dress" song he did last year. And that unreleased "Apologize" song from back in the day remains my favorite (mostly 'cause I relate to it).
???Yeezus??? is ambitious, but it???s blessedly free of the longueurs that attend so many Great Albums. Twenty years from now, West???s previous records will remain important, but a new generation may first gravitate to the lean vibrancy of this one. Pop musicians constantly claim not to give a fuck, and West used just those words before he started the playback at Milk Studios. He means it, though, and it could be said that ???Yeezus??? is his most satisfyingly narcissistic record. We get none of his soggy and insincere apologies (???Runaway???) or hemmed-in spiritual set pieces (???Jesus Walks???). The new album is all id, and that makes it easier to trust.
He wanted the music to take a stripped-down minimal direction. He was always examining what we could take out instead of put in. A good example would be the song that became ???Bound.??? When he first played it for me, it was a more middle of the road R&B song, done in an adult contemporary style. Kanye had the idea of combining that track with a cool sample he had found and liked ??? I removed all of the R&B elements leaving only a single note baseline in the hook which we processed to have a punk edge in the Suicide tradition.
Comments
You know he's been getting EXTENSIVE help on his production since 2006, right? We're not talking session players and string sections, we're talking about shit like this:
There are four people credited to that beat. It's alright, but can someone explain to me why Kanye West needed three other people to make something that simple?
Oh and I'm kinda shocked how no one gives him credit as an MC in this day and age. He used to be almost exclusively cheesy on the mic in the College Dropout years, but he's definitely progressed in that lane. Might be the best mainstream rapper out today. For as much as I shit on his abilities as a producer, he earned his keep as a rapper IMO.
They'd end up performing No Exit whether they wanted to or not.
Indeed, he pretty much seems to let fly, regardless of whether he has an album coming or not. Although since it's highly unlikely that I'll buy it, I'm not sure if that actually counts as taking the bait.
I will definitely take unedited bullshit over contrived bullshit any day.
No kidding, right? I think that's his real innovation though, that he's taken self-affirmation to new and eccentric heights. It's like some weird mashup of Jim Jones and Darryl Dawkins, without all the deaths and shattered basketball hoops.
I used to think he was a pretty weak MC but I agree he's much better now then people give him credit for and like it or not he is one of the few major deal rappers that is actually saying real life/socially conscious stuff at that high level of fame. Overall Kanye is good for rap and brings a balance to the Tygas and Rick Ross types of the current pop music landscape.
You seem to be implying that Kanye needs help with his beats, when just about everything he did prior to 2006 would seem to indicate otherwise.
What I think is the case here is that he simply isn't afraid to work with outside people and relinquish a degree of control over the creative process. Considering the extent to which hip-hop is a producer-driven medium - and to an extent it is, otherwise there wouldn't still be a string of indie rappers queuing up outside Premo's studio for a phoned-in beat in the vain hope of making their boring albums sound a little more interesting - that's a pretty brave and risky thing to do. Especially if you're a screaming egomaniac, as 'Ye supposedly is. It's not as if he's ever said, "Well, y'know, the reason [record x] kind of sucked was because of the other dude, I had nothing to do with that side of it." A set-up like the one he had with Jon Brion or Mike Dean or Just Blaze or anyone else on his side of the boards would enable him to do that pretty easily, I'd have thought.
As for the "three other people" remark, you're betraying a lack of familiarity with how that side of the game actually works. Everyone knows Dilla produced Janet Jackson's Got 'Til It's Gone, for example, but industry politics and Dilla's no-name status at the time meant there was no way he was getting even equal billing with Jam & Lewis or Tip. There are enduring rumours that Kanye had produced a number of international smash hits for Bad Boy long before he ever received a full "produced by" credit on one.
I've always liked him as a rapper. Not GOAT-status and never likely to be in truth, but consisently sharp, witty and entertaining. And yes, I'm a fan.
Man, I'm larger than life
These motherfuckers ask, "Is it the bark or the bite?"
It's both, chillin' on streets you scared to park on at night
Just forfeit just like I'm becoming part of the light
And you, man, you goin' to be the biggest mark at the fight
See, I never understood what made you think you was handlin'
You half-ass runnin' through my neighborhood vandlin'
Next time I'ma light your world up like a canon
Get some Italians to play your ass like a mandolin
Yeah, he's just that crazy near the June 18th release date.
Did the NYTimes call him or did his people call the Times to discuss the upcoming album?
C'mon Son.
I don't think you just wake up one morning and go from humble but talented dude, to claiming you're close to a god. Unless you're having some kind of manic episode. And with Kanye, like Doc said, those claims seem genuine enough.
This may be a bad example, but.. It's not like Lil B coming out with a lp titled 'I'm Gay', which he never truly seemed comfortable with. For all it's righteous intentions, it failed to come across as convincing, and he had to add 'I'm happy'. But when Kanye claims to be a god, or whatever, I can easily believe he means it.
I think he's hamming it up and believes the things he says only to a degree. I know it's a funny thing to say about a guy who writers clever raps, but I feel like he is not that good at expressing himself in certain settings. It can't be easy articulating the jumble in his head for something as pedestrian and controlled as an interview.
His solo MPC beats were always weak to me. Like they literally sounded cheap and flimsy. I can name a handful of really dope tracks he produced back then, namely "Grammy Family," but I was never one of those dudes who gave him a cookie just because he sampled old records (actually CDs he bought from Tower) in a post-Swizz Beats era. How are those "H to the Izzo" type beats sounding today? He was never able to make his drums bang (he used Dre's "Xxplosive" kit/pattern like six times), his sampling was rigid, and his sources were boring and obvious. He didn't know how to do it well enough, so.....
The Jon Brion collaboration was great and produced arguably his best work. Definitely the most musical, to my ears at least. But you knew immediately when the sound got thicker, because West was still supplying those anemic ass tracks that ALWAYS needed another element or two. Late Registration seemed like a natural expansion for Kanye's sound. But the shit he's been on the last few years? This latest "minimal" take on rap/pop? Why does this dude need five people to make a "minimal" sounding beat?
Oh and hip-hop is definitely producer driven, as is the electronic scene that Kanye's dabbled in. The thing is, damn near all these producers he employs can make those beats on their own. Besides a "vision" or whatever, I'm not exactly sure what Kanye himself can bring to the table production-wise. We're talking about a guy who had to farm out "Stronger" to Timbaland to "get the drums right."
Dilla did that beat by himself and didn't get credit.
Kanye needed three other people to make a beat that involved drums, a piano sample, and a vocal drop - and he credited them all.
Different situations.
Oh and it's been confirmed that Kanye didn't do "All About The Benjamins." Curious to know which other beats his name has been attached to though.
Yeah I got on board after Late Registration. I thought College Dropout was average all-around so I'm glad he got good at something.
Is there any difference between Kanye's God talk and the %5 Nation MCs?
Or Jehovah - Jay-Z?
I dont get the OMG factor.
I see what you did there.
You beat me to it - it's not a new concept in rap. I guess because West doesn't fit the typical rap mould and it's couched in all the other stuff he's saying/doing that explains the OMG factor. Also, if enough people act like and treat you like you're a god, you might start believing it.
I mean, it was still a good show, with ballerinas and extravagant craziness. But Kanye talks crazy in interviews building hype for his album AND on stage when he's already got your money. Yeah he might play it up a bit, but I don't think it's THAT calculated.
People jumped all over his ass on here when he posed on the cover of Scratch holding a copy of Let's Get It On with a $15 price tag - "Look at him, flossing dollar-bin records, fuckin' cornball..." I didn't give a fuck then and I don't give a fuck now. I couldn't care less whether he sampled old records, CDs, low-bitrate RealAudio files or field recordings. The Blueprint knocks pretty much front-to-back and is, IMO, one of the greatest albums ever made. Kanye had a lot to do with that.
In other genres, the producer doesn't customarily produce every note of music on a record he or she produces. How many instruments do you think Phil Spector played on River Deep, Mountain High? How do you think it would have sounded if Ike Turner had produced it? Would it have been as big a hit? Would it have been one of the landmark pop records of the 1960s? This is where the vision comes in. That vision can involve bringing in a dude like Jon Brion, or it can mean that, when you're sat there thinking, "I need these drums to hit as hard as Timbaland's", you think, fuck it, let's just call Timbo. More significantly, he answers, because you're Kanye.
Having a "vision" can also mean that, if you've got five people in a room all chipping in on a project, you need to have a) an intimate enough knowledge of the politics of the game to know how important it is to the other four dudes that they get their name on the record too, and b) the wisdom to know that if you start acting all "I put this together! ME!!", demanding 100% of the shine/credit/royalties, they might not sign off on it, and you end up having to cut a track that's key to your record. It cuts the other way as well - "If I use your beat on my record, I want a co-producer credit too" - a lot of record producers do nothing more than push a few faders, shout a few instructions and make sure they're in the control room long enough to claim a credit.
That's what I said;
Politics.
Well, yeah. It might have started out sounding completely different, for example. [Co-producer X]'s work might not have been used at all, even though he started work on the track. [Co-producer Y] might have been the one who brought in the piano sample. [Co-producer Z] might have been the dude who got the drums to knock just so. And Kanye might have been the dude that said, OK, now why don't we put it all together like this. The kind of thing a record producer might do, in other words. And everyone ends up being credited in the same way as contributors to the screenplay of a movie. Kanye might well have done very little of anything on the track. But the presence of other names in the credit field aren't irrefutable proof either way.
Mo' Money, Mo' Problems was always rumoured to have been one of his.
Doubly true for rappers.
Just for history's sake, River Deep Mountain High famously failed to crack the top 40.
Uh-huh. Good luck with that.
to be fair, he'd just bum rush the stage if I didn't.
Sasha Frere-Jones:
Lowrider oldies por vida!
Rick Rubin: