also, her videos WERE submitted to MTV/MTV2 and they were going to play it as long as she changed one little PLO reference and she refused and that was the end of that. I think it's pretty stupid, considering she wasn't bigging up the PLO, just mentioning how they "don't give up" which is true regardless of how you feel about them.
anyways, that's why she's not on MTV now. but we'll see what her next single is.
and while one of you mentioned that it seems like you can't admit you don't MIA, I feel it's getting so bad with the hype that I feel like I can't admit I DO like MIA.
also, her videos WERE submitted to MTV/MTV2 and they were going to play it as long as she changed one little PLO reference and she refused and that was the end of that. I think it's pretty stupid, considering she wasn't bigging up the PLO, just mentioning how they "don't give up" which is true regardless of how you feel about them.
anyways, that's why she's not on MTV now. but we'll see what her next single is.
and while one of you mentioned that it seems like you can't admit you don't MIA, I feel it's getting so bad with the hype that I feel like I can't admit I DO like MIA.
Anna, I don't think you understand - what with this amount of hype, and lackluster sales, and the debacle with the first video, interscope may not EVER get fully involved. There is speculation that interscope is already pulling out.
This whole conversation is not about whether or not she's cool or fucking rocks your world or whatever. It's strictly about whether or not the record industry is going to give a fuck two or three weeks - let alone months - from now whether or not MIA had a big buzz back in February or March.
also, her videos WERE submitted to MTV/MTV2 and they were going to play it as long as she changed one little PLO reference and she refused and that was the end of that. I think it's pretty stupid, considering she wasn't bigging up the PLO, just mentioning how they "don't give up" which is true regardless of how you feel about them.
anyways, that's why she's not on MTV now. but we'll see what her next single is.
and while one of you mentioned that it seems like you can't admit you don't MIA, I feel it's getting so bad with the hype that I feel like I can't admit I DO like MIA.
Anna, I don't think you understand - what with this amount of hype, and lackluster sales, and the debacle with the first video, interscope may not EVER get fully involved. There is speculation that interscope is already pulling out.
This whole conversation is not about whether or not she's cool or fucking rocks your world or whatever. It's strictly about whether or not the record industry is going to give a fuck two or three weeks - let alone months - from now whether or not MIA had a big buzz back in February or March.
Touring is a good look though, word to Reynaldo.
I hear what you're saying. The hype has a serious downside it appears.
MIA was recently number one on Live 105's (shitty bay are alternative station) saturday dance show. She's not on their top40 bullshit but I was surprised she was on commercial radio at all.
I feel you on some of your critiques below but I also think you're making a few assumptions that need to be addressed.
1) No sane music critic actually thinks that people BUY records based on their recommendations. I mean, a few might be gassed up on some bullshit to think that, but most of the people I know and work with all recognize that their tastes do NOT conform with populist tastes.
The most obvious example is comparing Billboard's year end charts with the Village Voice's Pazz and Jop poll. It's VERY rare that the two have much in common with the exception of maybe, 2-3 albums. For example, Pazz and Jop loved Lauryn Hill and Kanye West - so did the buying public. For the most part though, the albums that critics (rock critics - hip-hop critics are a whole thing altogether) get all galang galang about are rarely the same albums that the Walmart crowd gives a fuck about.
I 'M NOT SURE I AGREE WITH THAT. I THINK THAT A SANE PERSON LIKE YOU, OR CATCHDINI, OR MY MAIN MIZZLE CARAMANICA IS AWARE OF THE LIMIT OF THE SCOPE OF HIS INFLUENCE, BUT I THINK YOU DOODS MIGHT BE IN THE MINORITY. LOOK AT SOMEONE LIKE THAT SHITHEAD CHRISTGAU WITH HIS "CONSUMERS GUIDE'" IN THE VILLAGE VOICE, THIS SEEMS TO ME TO BE CLEARLY INTENDED TO INFLUENCE THE READER TO BUY CERTAIN DISCS. ALSO I'VE HEARD MANY OF YOUR "COLLEAGUES" AT THE URBAN MAGS PROFESS TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT THEY "BLEW UP" A CERTAIN RECORD OR ARTIST... I THINK ALL THAT THE COMPARISON BETWEEN PAZZ AND JOP AND BILLBOARD PROVES IS THAT PEOPLE LIKE OL' BOB C NEED TO GET OFF THEIR OWN DICKS.
[2) Moreover, aren't you taking a rather limited perspective on trying to equate hype with record sales? It's one thing to have three articles written on you in the Village Voice. That's the type of hype that will sell records out of Other Music. It's another thing to be a multi-platinum artist, kick out a member of your crew on the radio, then pop shots outside the station, then announce a truce a week later. That kind of hype gets you 2.3 million out the box.
I don't think anyone who's hyped M.I.A. thought she'd sell bushels of the records out the gate. Again, see my very first point.
I THINK YOU'RE MISSING MY ADMITTEDLY CONVOLUTED POINT: I [color:red] NEVER [/color] EQUATED HYPE WITH RECORD SALES, IN FACT, I'M [color:red] CONTRASTING [/color] HYPE AND RECORD SALES AND SAYTING THAT DESPITE THE FACT THAT I HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO COUNTLESS PROGNOSTICATIONS THAT "THIS IS THE ACT THAT WILL FINALLY BREAK UK URBAN MUSIC IN THE US" AND "MIA IS ALREADY THE BIGGEST NEW ACT OF THIS YEAR" OR WHATEVER SIMILAR BLATHER, ALL OF THESE SO-CALLED "INFLUENTIAL" PEOPLE REALLY GOT NO PULL. LESS THAN LIKE A COLLEGE RADIO PROMOTER IN FACT (OUCH!).
THEN, WITH THE INVOLVMENT OF INTERSCOPE, WHO MIGHT I ADD HAS ALSO SIGNED SUCH NON-STARTERS AS HOT KARL AND AHMAD'S CHRISTIAN RAP GROUP FOURTH AVENUE JONES, THE SHIT JUST JUMPED FURTHER INTO OVERDRIVE AND PEOPLE WERE FORCASTING A MASSIVE MAINSTREAM BLOW-UP.
3) To expand on that for a second, recognize that anyone who's cocky enough to call themselves a "tastemaker" isn't interested in making the tastes of Joe Average in Middle America. He or she is trying to set the trend among other trendsters. By the time the bridge and tunnel crowd get a hold of it, that's a sign that said trend is over and done.
You're conflating wanna-be tastemakers with industry strategists. The latter are trying to find artists they can retire off of. The former just want to be able to say they were the first to put an artist on their mix-CD. Two different ambitions.
I just think the idea that bloggers and critics think they can will anything to become popular doesn't exist within those communities.
I SEE YOUR POINT, BUT AGAIN, I THINK THAT YOU ARE ASCRIBING YOUR OWN HUMILITY TO OTHERS WHO DON'T SHARE IT. EITHER WAY, ALOT OF THESE PEOPLE WANT ALOT OF ATTENTION AND RESPECT FROM THE INDUSTRY AND MUSIC LISTENING PUBLIC AT-LARGE AND I'M KIND OF NOT SURE WHY THEY ARE DESERVING OF IT.
4) I think it's totally cool that you hate blogger hype. Yeah, it is an insular community, yeah, it is a circle jerk. But why pay it any mind? It's not like bloggers are really being afforded a special place in the culture industry except by other bloggers. You might have a tiny, tiny amount of celebs out there - like Wonkette or whatever - but complaining about blog hype is like complaining about Okayplayer hype - I think everyone (including those of us inside of it) recognize that our opinions are pretty insular and that the main trends we think we're tracking is amongst ourselves.
SEE ABOVE. I'M ALSO NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT BLOGGING HYPE, I'M (IN A VERY BLOG-LIKE FASHION) BRINGING ATTENTION TO A PHENOMENON, OR WHATEVER. I TOLD OUR MUTUAL FRIEND CARAMANICA A COUPLE MONTHS AGO THAT I THINK BLOGS HAVE BECOME AN ONLINE HALL OF MIRRORS, SO-TO-SPEAK: PEOPLE MAKING COMMENTS ON THE COMMENTS OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMENTING ON THE COMMENTS OF THE ARTICLE THEY WROTE ABOUT THE ARTICLE THAT SOMEONE ELSE WROTE. IF THAT PLEASES SOMEONE, THEY SHOULD GO RIGHT ON AHEAD AND KEEP KEYSTROKING THEIR WAY TO CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME. IT JUST SEEMS LIKE A FRUITLESS PURSUIT TO ME. AREN'T MOST OF YOU BLOGGERS JOURNALISTS (REAL OR ASPIRING)? WOULDN'T YOUR TIME BE BETTER SERVED ATTEMPTING TO REACH OUTSIDE OF THE CIRCLE-JERK AND ENGAGE WITH THE GENERAL CONSUMER/READER?
5) My thing on M.I.A. is this:
I like her album, I like her music. Shit is catchy, it's fun to dance to. And that's about as far as I'll go. I don't find her political sloganeering very affecting but if I can shake my ass to it, that's good enough.
What I don't like about her hype is what my man Jon Caramanica lays down here:
DBC - don't get me wrong, I'm tired of the M.I.A. hype too because I think it too glibly treats her as this cute 3rd World revolutionary - Neneh Cherry meets Che Guevera. That's partly M.I.A.'s fault - I mean, she sells herself as such to a certain extent, but you read something like Rob Sheffield's review in Rolling Stone, where he talks about "jump rope rhymes in a war zone" and you just roll your eyes.
AS FRED DURST WOULD SAY, WE ARE "IN AGREEANCE ON THIS", WELL MINUS THE PART ABOUT LIKING THE MUSIC (AND THE PART ABOUT YOU SHAKING YOUR ASS, WHICH FRANKLY SIR, IS TOO MUCH INFORMATION ). CARAMANICA IS ON POINT AS USUAL (EVEN IF HE DOES LIKE AESOP ROCK). I'M NOT GOING TO CONDMEN THE TIGERS, OR PRAISE THEM, BUT I DO KNOW FROM MY CURSORY ACQUAINTANCE WITH THEM THROUGHOUT THE YEARS THROUGH THE NEWS MEDIA, THAT CALLING THEM "FREEDOM FIGHTERS", WHILE NOT UNTRUE, DOESN'T DO JUSTICE TO THE SHEER BRUTALITY OF THEIR METHODS. THAT'S ALL GOOD TOO, I'M NOT A BIG PLO FAN BUT I SEE WHERE THEY COME FROM. WHAT I OBJECT TO, SAME AS YOU, IS THE GLIB EXOTICIFICATION OF HOT THIRD-WORLD MUSICIANS...I MEAN THAT SHEFFIELD QUOTE MAKES ME WANNA BARF.
I'm not remotely mad at Xgau - keep in mind, his column was called "Consumer's Guide" for a long, long time - perhaps at a time when places like the Voice and Rolling Stone actually held some clout in terms of helping push an artist. I know that a lot of folks don't like him too. I used to be more skeptical of his work until I actually bothered to read more of it and having worked with him on a few occassions at the Voice, I've learned to appreciate what he's contributed to the craft of music criticism. That doesn't mean, however, that I agree with his tastes and as someone who came into writing vis a vis thinking about hip-hop (rather than rock), I think there will always be a philosophical distance.
This is important because, as you point out, urban mags like to brag about how they "blew up" certain artists. Rock criticism and hip-hop criticism is very different in this respect...just to reassert this point again, I don't think most rock critics believe that their reviews translates into commercial success. If anything, I've heard most of them bemoan how their opinions seem to make no difference at all since what people buy at the stores is often times, very different from what the writers promote in their reviews.
Now - hip-hop criticism is altogether different because 1) you have artists complaining ALL THE FUCKING TIME that a bad review = "taking money out of my pocket", perhaps one of my all-time favorite whines, 2) the distance b/t criticism and commercialism is far closer, these days, in hip-hop than it is in rock, and 3) writers themselves want to believe that their cheerleading can help blow up an artist.
I do think rap mags can help an artist out: being put on the cover of XXL is not going to hurt your sales. However, I feel that, more and more, the back of the book -w here the reviews are - is practically superfluous to most readers. Maybe you can blame The Source for this: I feel like they watered down their "mics" to the point where no one took that shit seriously anymore and as a result, no one really uses the reviews as a consumer guide. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But these days, I think rap fans have so many other resources to hear an album before buying it (or, ha, downloading it) rather than having to rely on some two-bit hack like me telling them, "The Game is the truth!"
Back to hype/record sales, etc.
My point to you is that I don't think looking at "Arular's" first week of sales in necessarily indicative of anything. I REALLY don't think any of the reviewers who slobbered over M.I.A. actually thought she'd sell a lot of records. What they did hope was that there'd be enough other people out there who'd nod and say, "yeah, you were right, she is cool."
I mean, there's no satisfaction - as a tastemaker - in saying, "hey, maybe you should check out Good Charlotte." However, someone like M.I.A. is hip and different enough from the mainstream that she's the perfect candidate for blogger and critic hype because her sound is different from mainstream pop yet it totally is pop (and let's be honest - her sound might be derivative of other genres like electro, bass, bhangra, baile funk, hip-hop, dancehall, etc. but I think her and her producers put it together beautifully). Throw in the fact that she's brown, exotic/sexy, and rhymes with an accent and she could have been reciting nursery rhymes (oh wait, she kind of is) and she would have gotten all these white male critics/bloggers drooling over her.
SEE NORTHERN STATE. OKAAAAAAY? (and they're not even brown)
I'm still not convinced that M.I.A. won't do better down the road, but her's will be slow build, not a rocket to the top.
Back to hype one last time -
what annoys me, and perhaps this is what you're responding to as well, is that blog hype - in particular - often takes on this haughty attitude of, "oh, you didn't know about M.I.A. [or any other artist clocking time on the hipster dime] already? Dear boy, where have you been...?"
I'm not remotely mad at Xgau - keep in mind, his column was called "Consumer's Guide" for a long, long time - perhaps at a time when places like the Voice and Rolling Stone actually held some clout in terms of helping push an artist. I know that a lot of folks don't like him too. I used to be more skeptical of his work until I actually bothered to read more of it and having worked with him on a few occassions at the Voice, I've learned to appreciate what he's contributed to the craft of music criticism. That doesn't mean, however, that I agree with his tastes and as someone who came into writing vis a vis thinking about hip-hop (rather than rock), I think there will always be a philosophical distance.
[color:purple] WORD, IT IS SOMEWHAT TANGENTIAL OF ME TO LASH OUT AT XGAU..I AM AWARE OT HIS IMPORTANCE IN THE PANTHEON OF MUSIC WRITERS, BUT I REALLY THINK HE SHOULD NEVER WRITE ABOUT HIP-HOP EVER. HE SEEMS TO LOOOOOOOVE ANY PRETENTIOUS WHITE INDY RAP THAT COMES HIS WAY AND RECENTLY WROTE THIS ABSURD ARTICLE REGARDING THE PERCEPTIONISTS WHERE HE DECRIED THE WHITE PUBLIC'S LOVE OF VIOLENT RAP, MAKING THE VALID POINT THAT MOST OF US HONKIES BUY RAP THAT CONFORMS WITH OUR STEREOTYPES OF BLACK FOLKS (IN THIS CASE VIOLENT, GREEDY), BUT HE FAILED ENTIRELY TO SEE THAT HIS OWN ARTICLE WAS GUILTY OF THE SAME REDUCTIVE TENDENCY: IN THIS CASE HE WAS BASICALLY APPOINTING SOME "GOOD NEGROES" WHOSE WORLD-VIEW ECHOES THAT OF THE WRITER AND OF THE BUCK65-TYPE CRAP THAT HE LAUDS. BUT LEAVING THIS OLD JERK ASIDE...[/color]
This is important because, as you point out, urban mags like to brag about how they "blew up" certain artists. Rock criticism and hip-hop criticism is very different in this respect...just to reassert this point again, I don't think most rock critics believe that their reviews translates into commercial success. If anything, I've heard most of them bemoan how their opinions seem to make no difference at all since what people buy at the stores is often times, very different from what the writers promote in their reviews.
Now - hip-hop criticism is altogether different because 1) you have artists complaining ALL THE FUCKING TIME that a bad review = "taking money out of my pocket", perhaps one of my all-time favorite whines, 2) the distance b/t criticism and commercialism is far closer, these days, in hip-hop than it is in rock, and 3) writers themselves want to believe that their cheerleading can help blow up an artist.
I do think rap mags can help an artist out: being put on the cover of XXL is not going to hurt your sales. However, I feel that, more and more, the back of the book -w here the reviews are - is practically superfluous to most readers. Maybe you can blame The Source for this: I feel like they watered down their "mics" to the point where no one took that shit seriously anymore and as a result, no one really uses the reviews as a consumer guide. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But these days, I think rap fans have so many other resources to hear an album before buying it (or, ha, downloading it) rather than having to rely on some two-bit hack like me telling them, "The Game is the truth!"
[color:purple]HERE WE ARE IN ABSOLUTE AGREEMENT. I THINK HIP-HOP CRITICISM IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALLGAME, AND I THINK IT WAS FAR MORE VALID BEFORE THE SOURCE DID THINGS LIKE GIVE SMIF AND WESSON TWO-AND-A-HALF MICS. I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO PAYS ATTENTION TO THAT SHIT. BUT AGAIN, I THINK YOU GIVE ROCK CRITICS TOO MUCH LEEWAY. I HAVE WITNESSED FIRST-HAND A GREAT DEAL OF SELF-IMPORTANT BEHAVIOR BY THESE FOLKS OVER THE YEARS, AND THEY CERTAINLY ACT LIKE THEY SHOULD BE KOWTOWED TO BECAUSE OF THEIR INFLUENCE (SEE THROWING TANTRUMS AT PARTIES/CONCERTS, I WAS WORKING THE DOOR AT/THROWING OR WITNESSING THE INTERACTIONS BETWEEN LABEL PUBLICISTS AND WRITERS...A SORDID DANCE IF EVER THERE WAS ONE). [/color]
Back to hype/record sales, etc.
My point to you is that I don't think looking at "Arular's" first week of sales in necessarily indicative of anything. I REALLY don't think any of the reviewers who slobbered over M.I.A. actually thought she'd sell a lot of records. What they did hope was that there'd be enough other people out there who'd nod and say, "yeah, you were right, she is cool."
[color:purple] WELL NO OLIVER, IT'S INDICATIVE OF MY POINT: THAT ALL OF THIS HYPE DOESN'T INFLUENCE SHIT. SO WHETHER THE REVIEWERS INTENT WAS TO INFLUENCE SALES OR NOT, I'M SIMPLY STATING THAT ALL OF THIS GAS HAS, SO FAR, NOT AMOUNTED TO A HILL OF BEANS. THAT WAS MY ONLY CONTENTION: THAT IT IS SILLY TO THINK THESE FOLKS HAVE PULL OUTSIDE OF THEIR GATED COMMUNITY OF THE TOO-COOL. [/color]
I mean, there's no satisfaction - as a tastemaker - in saying, "hey, maybe you should check out Good Charlotte." However, someone like M.I.A. is hip and different enough from the mainstream that she's the perfect candidate for blogger and critic hype because her sound is different from mainstream pop yet it totally is pop (and let's be honest - her sound might be derivative of other genres like electro, bass, bhangra, baile funk, hip-hop, dancehall, etc. but I think her and her producers put it together beautifully). Throw in the fact that she's brown, exotic/sexy, and rhymes with an accent and she could have been reciting nursery rhymes (oh wait, she kind of is) and she would have gotten all these white male critics/bloggers drooling over her.
SEE NORTHERN STATE. OKAAAAAAY? (and they're not even brown)
[color:purple] I TOTALLY SEE WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM HERE, IT WOULD BE REAL BORING TO WRITE ABOUT KELLY CLARKSON ALL DAY LONG. BUT, NORTHERN STATE IS ALSO A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF MY POINT: THAT PEOPLE LIKE XGAU AND ALL THE OTHER FOLLS AND IDOITS WHO JUMPED ON THE BANDWAGON ARE JUST OUT OF TOUCH AND FRANKLY HAVE TASTE THAT IS SO POLITICIZED (RATHER THAN BEING BASED MERELY ON THE QUALITY OF THE MUSIC, CUZ CMON IT'S HARD TO ARGUE THAT NORTHERN STATE DON'T SUCK), THAT I DON'T KNOW WHY ANYONE TAKES 'EM SERIOUSLY. [/color]
I'm still not convinced that M.I.A. won't do better down the road, but her's will be slow build, not a rocket to the top.
[color:purple] AGREED, I SAID THE SAME THING. I JUST THINK FOLKS (ON THIS SITE FOR INSTANCE) REALLY BELEIVED THAT THIS CHICK WOULD COME OUT IN TO THE MARKET LIKE GANGBUSTERS. AS I SAID, IF INTERSCOPE PUTS THEIR MUSCLE BEHIND IT, IT WILL SELL. HOWEVER, EVEN THE MIGHTY INTERSCOPE WILL HAVE TO CONTEND WITH HER POOR SHOWING AT RETAIL AND THAT WILL MEAN THROWING A HUGE AMOUNT INTO CO-OPS WITH THE CHAINS AND HUGE AMOUNTS INTO RADIO...WHICH WILL MEAN THAT MS. MIA WILL BE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS UNRECOUPED (PLUS ADVANCE) AND SO EVEN IF SHE DOES SELL, SHE'LL BE A FINANCIAL LOSS, WHICH JUST KIND OF SUCKS. IF THIS HADN'T BEEN BLOWN UP SO BIG AND SHE HADN'T SIGNED WITH A MAJOR, THESE SALES WOULD HAVE BEEN SEEN AS A (QUALIFIED) SUCCESS AND SHE MIGHT MAKE SOME MONEY AT THE END OF THE DAY. [/color]
Back to hype one last time -
what annoys me, and perhaps this is what you're responding to as well, is that blog hype - in particular - often takes on this haughty attitude of, "oh, you didn't know about M.I.A. [or any other artist clocking time on the hipster dime] already? Dear boy, where have you been...?"
[color:purple] UH HUH, AND MY RESPONSE IS "WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU, AND WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN"...THE BLOGOSPHERE (GOD, I GOTTA STOP USING THAT WORD) IS FILLED WITH NEWJACKS TRYING TO ASSERT THEIR POSITION AS EXPERTS, AND FRANKLY SIR, I'M JUST NOT BUYING IT. [/color]
I THINK YOU GIVE ROCK CRITICS TOO MUCH LEEWAY. I HAVE WITNESSED FIRST-HAND A GREAT DEAL OF SELF-IMPORTANT BEHAVIOR BY THESE FOLKS OVER THE YEARS, AND THEY CERTAINLY ACT LIKE THEY SHOULD BE KOWTOWED TO BECAUSE OF THEIR INFLUENCE (SEE THROWING TANTRUMS AT PARTIES/CONCERTS, I WAS WORKING THE DOOR AT/THROWING OR WITNESSING THE INTERACTIONS BETWEEN LABEL PUBLICISTS AND WRITERS...A SORDID DANCE IF EVER THERE WAS ONE). [/color]
Oh dude, you do misunderstand me. I'm not forgiving rock critics at all - I frankly can't stand most of them and that little diva-ass behavior you describe is some shit I've witnessed more times than I can care for. I'd MUCH rather hang out with a hip-hop writer any day of the week since most of them tend to be far more humble, down-to-earth, and passionate about rap than any ironic rock critic I know. Not to say there aren't some asshole hip-hop writers or some cool rock writers - far from it.
My point though is that rock critics - THESE DAYS - have resigned themselves to the fact that their opinions don't move in the marketplace. I'm sure someone like Jim DeRogatis has wet dreams that his Ryan Adams screeds actually influence people not to go to his shows (and to his dumb ass credit, Adams responds to DeRogatis as if that were true too) but the dudes I talk to are all well-aware that their opinions don't mean jack when it comes to the buying tastes of the average 17 year old, except on those rare occassions when they manage to pick something populist to cheer, like Kanye.
That doesn't mean rock critics aren't overblown on ego. But rather, their ego is focused other places. That was my whole breakdown of the difference between a tastemaker for hipsters and a strategist for the mass market. Rock critics fancy themselves the arbitrators of good taste but a necessary corollary to that is their belief that THE PUBLIC DOESN'T HAVE GOOD TASTE, and to prove this, they point their finger at the fact that Britney and Nelly sell lots of records while The Streets and Northern State do not.
Z-man - believe me, we're in complete agreement about most of this. I'm just splitting a hair though and arguing that M.I.A.'s hype machine never proceeded on the belief that she'd be a hit with the general public, but rather, that she's going to be the "It" girl for all the cool people. And I PROMISE YOU that her album will be Top 10 of the Pazz and Jop 2005.
This goes back to your point here:
[color:purple] WELL NO OLIVER, IT'S INDICATIVE OF MY POINT: THAT ALL OF THIS HYPE DOESN'T INFLUENCE SHIT. SO WHETHER THE REVIEWERS INTENT WAS TO INFLUENCE SALES OR NOT, I'M SIMPLY STATING THAT ALL OF THIS GAS HAS, SO FAR, NOT AMOUNTED TO A HILL OF BEANS. THAT WAS MY ONLY CONTENTION: THAT IT IS SILLY TO THINK THESE FOLKS HAVE PULL OUTSIDE OF THEIR GATED COMMUNITY OF THE TOO-COOL.
Well, I agree but again, I'm not sure which folks actually think they have pull outside of their gated community of the too-cool. My argument is that said folks are trying to speak to other people in that little cluster fuck but aren't trying to connect to too many folks outside of that circle.
NORTHERN STATE IS ALSO A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF MY POINT: THAT PEOPLE LIKE XGAU AND ALL THE OTHER FOLLS AND IDOITS WHO JUMPED ON THE BANDWAGON ARE JUST OUT OF TOUCH AND FRANKLY HAVE TASTE THAT IS SO POLITICIZED (RATHER THAN BEING BASED MERELY ON THE QUALITY OF THE MUSIC, CUZ CMON IT'S HARD TO ARGUE THAT NORTHERN STATE DON'T SUCK), THAT I DON'T KNOW WHY ANYONE TAKES 'EM SERIOUSLY.
Yeah man, Northern State was a great example of how badly many rock critics hate hip-hop that they'll go to any lengths to champion rap music that doesn't conform to their worst stereotypes about "what rap music sounds like today." That's why I'm really feeling Kalefah's hustle at the NYT. This is a guy, writing for the most powerful daily in the nation, big upping 50 Cent and Killa. That's pretty fucking wild to me, at least compared to the years that came before.
A good read, Gentlemen. Nice to see a discussion on here that doesn't immediately devolve into someone being called a "wetmouth."
what annoys me, and perhaps this is what you're responding to as well, is that blog hype - in particular - often takes on this haughty attitude of, "oh, you didn't know about M.I.A. [or any other artist clocking time on the hipster dime] already? Dear boy, where have you been...?"
[color:purple] UH HUH, AND MY RESPONSE IS "WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU, AND WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN"...THE BLOGOSPHERE (GOD, I GOTTA STOP USING THAT WORD) IS FILLED WITH NEWJACKS TRYING TO ASSERT THEIR POSITION AS EXPERTS, AND FRANKLY SIR, I'M JUST NOT BUYING IT. [/color]
Judging by the above statements, one could very convincingly argue that SoulStrut is in fact the world's largest online music blog.
And you both make an excellent point about the Source and their watered-down mic ratings. Honestly, I don't even like the star/mic system to begin with. Years ago, I had an editor at a copywriting job who had a well-founded disdain for exclamation points. His stance was that the sentence itself, if well-penned, should be the exclamation. That's how I feel about putting three stars directly above an actual review of a record. What, is 100 words just too much for you to read?
Then again, as a writer often saddled with the task of having to sum up an entire LP--sometimes two--in 100 words or less, I can see how writers might want to lean on just such a crutch. But back to O-Dub's very salient point: Who reads these reviews, anyways? I think it's safe to say that they're read by:
1. DJs 2. Other musicians/artists 3. Writers and/or bloggers 4. PR folks 5. Me and other patients in the waiting room
I don't think that people are consulting Rolling Stone to see how to spend that $15 they have earmarked for their weekly CD purchase. (Wait, do people still pay for CDs? Oh, yeah...people only buy "mixtapes," right? )
And finally: Why is that, after reading this thread, I seem to be responding in a DBC/O-Dub style and fashion?
- Ross (a wetmouth)
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
One more thing, whoever made that Des Moines comment, I would probably play her music if I had still lived there.
That was me. I wasn't trying to dis Des Moines - I've never been there, so it could be a fine town for all I know. I just picked it as a random example of somewhere well away from the established cultural and artistic hubs, if you will, of the US music scene. In other words, the kind of place where you need to be selling a lot of records to even have a chance of blowing up.
Judging by the above statements, one could very convincingly argue that SoulStrut is in fact the world's largest online music blog.
So for real.
Well, actually, OKP would disagree with that but I think we can all agree...
Soul Strut has better taste. (Now watch the ST and GP forums fire back).
And you both make an excellent point about the Source and their watered-down mic ratings. Honestly, I don't even like the star/mic system to begin with.
I think ratings can be useful when:
1) The ratings and copy actually coincide. There are so many cases where a writer will clearly describe an album with middling language but it still gets 4 stars or whatever. Or vice versa: albums that are clearly being lauded but the ratings are mediocre.
2) A magazine has enough credibility to make their ratings trustworthy. I don't think Ego Trip ever had a ratings system, but if they had, I would have been confident that a 2 star album would have gotten 2 stars.
Question: has any album ever gotten 1 mic or a "S" in the Source or XXL respectively? Is that when the guns come out?
Question: has any album ever gotten 1 mic or a "S" in the Source or XXL respectively? Is that when the guns come out?
I don't know that I've ever seen that in the Source or XXL. It used to be that ultra-indie shit--i.e. releases that the magazines could afford to pan without jeopardizing their relationships with the label--would occasionally get those really low ratings in Vibe, but they don't really even bother to review that type of thing anymore.
Question: has any album ever gotten 1 mic or a "S" in the Source or XXL respectively? Is that when the guns come out?
I'm pretty sure both Chilly Tee's album and Young MC's second album got 1.5 mics in The Source. I would also venture a guess that guns did not come out as a result (Jesse Washington, hold ya head).
Question: has any album ever gotten 1 mic or a "S" in the Source or XXL respectively? Is that when the guns come out?
I'm pretty sure both Chilly Tee's album and Young MC's second album got 1.5 mics in The Source. I would also venture a guess that guns did not come out as a result (Jesse Washington, hold ya head).
b, 21Funny thing is, MIA is now a certified pop hit (thanks to "Pineapple Express").
b, 21
>> rock journalists b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Yeah, she basically was saved by a stoner movie. Great movie. The DFA remix is real good. But I also remember at the time that critics where starting to "be over" her (Emperor's Clothes coupled with the same journalists trying to gush over that new new new new). I even want to say I read and where told first hand accounts (!!!!) that her opening for Gwen Stefani proved how much she really isn't what's really.
b, 21you hear that song at basketball games and shit...
b, 21
b, 21but, i guess one hit wonder status is not next big thing...
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21lol at "one hit wonder status," as if she were some obscure artist before "Paper Planes" or is destined to drop back into the sidelines. It's not like she's the Bahama Men.
b, 21lol at "one hit wonder status," as if she were some obscure artist before "Paper Planes" or is destined to drop back into the sidelines. It's not like she's the Bahama Men.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21I think her career arc will follow the Fine Young Cannibals'.
Maybe i'm looking at it from a DJ perspective, but Pull Up the People, Galang etc. are dope. There's some good songs on that album.
I think this album is tight. I guess I am a 22 year old city living college student so I am Target Audience for this shit, but I have elegant taste, so it's difficult to throw me for a curve and all. But I'm all chilling in the living room like what you want for ten dollars? ANYTHING YOU WANT because that song is kinda chill dudes. but shit that hello this is MIAAAAA song just sounds better over Goodies on that mixtape. and I think maybe Fire Fire is the tightest shit on the record
AND SERIOUSLY that CMurder single is SO BAD I am like dying. Actually in my eyes I start to SEE MURDER when I hear it I'm going down to the vinyl pressing plant and murdering all the people who are like HAHHAHAHA WE WILL PRESS THIS FOR YOU FOR MONEY
I have elegant taste I have elegant taste I have elegant taste I have elegant taste I have elegant taste
b, 21you hear that song at basketball games and shit...
b, 21
b, 21but, i guess one hit wonder status is not next big thing...
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1
b, 21
b, 21lol at "one hit wonder status," as if she were some obscure artist before "Paper Planes" or is destined to drop back into the sidelines. It's not like she's the Bahama Men.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21um, yeah, to mainstream america (ie. the people you have to sell records to in order to be "the next big thing") she was totally obscure b4 Paper Planes... don't debate this, please...
Comments
also, her videos WERE submitted to MTV/MTV2 and they were going to play it as long as she changed one little PLO reference and she refused and that was the end of that. I think it's pretty stupid, considering she wasn't bigging up the PLO, just mentioning how they "don't give up" which is true regardless of how you feel about them.
anyways, that's why she's not on MTV now. but we'll see what her next single is.
and while one of you mentioned that it seems like you can't admit you don't MIA, I feel it's getting so bad with the hype that I feel like I can't admit I DO like MIA.
Anna, I don't think you understand - what with this amount of hype, and lackluster sales, and the debacle with the first video, interscope may not EVER get fully involved. There is speculation that interscope is already pulling out.
This whole conversation is not about whether or not she's cool or fucking rocks your world or whatever. It's strictly about whether or not the record industry is going to give a fuck two or three weeks - let alone months - from now whether or not MIA had a big buzz back in February or March.
Touring is a good look though, word to Reynaldo.
I hear what you're saying. The hype has a serious downside it appears.
I feel you on some of your critiques below but I also think you're making a few assumptions that need to be addressed.
1) No sane music critic actually thinks that people BUY records based on their recommendations. I mean, a few might be gassed up on some bullshit to think that, but most of the people I know and work with all recognize that their tastes do NOT conform with populist tastes.
The most obvious example is comparing Billboard's year end charts with the Village Voice's Pazz and Jop poll. It's VERY rare that the two have much in common with the exception of maybe, 2-3 albums. For example, Pazz and Jop loved Lauryn Hill and Kanye West - so did the buying public. For the most part though, the albums that critics (rock critics - hip-hop critics are a whole thing altogether) get all galang galang about are rarely the same albums that the Walmart crowd gives a fuck about.
I 'M NOT SURE I AGREE WITH THAT. I THINK THAT A SANE PERSON LIKE YOU, OR CATCHDINI, OR MY MAIN MIZZLE CARAMANICA IS AWARE OF THE LIMIT OF THE SCOPE OF HIS INFLUENCE, BUT I THINK YOU DOODS MIGHT BE IN THE MINORITY. LOOK AT SOMEONE LIKE THAT SHITHEAD CHRISTGAU WITH HIS "CONSUMERS GUIDE'" IN THE VILLAGE VOICE, THIS SEEMS TO ME TO BE CLEARLY INTENDED TO INFLUENCE THE READER TO BUY CERTAIN DISCS. ALSO I'VE HEARD MANY OF YOUR "COLLEAGUES" AT THE URBAN MAGS PROFESS TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT THEY "BLEW UP" A CERTAIN RECORD OR ARTIST... I THINK ALL THAT THE COMPARISON BETWEEN PAZZ AND JOP AND BILLBOARD PROVES IS THAT PEOPLE LIKE OL' BOB C NEED TO GET OFF THEIR OWN DICKS.
[2) Moreover, aren't you taking a rather limited perspective on trying to equate hype with record sales? It's one thing to have three articles written on you in the Village Voice. That's the type of hype that will sell records out of Other Music. It's another thing to be a multi-platinum artist, kick out a member of your crew on the radio, then pop shots outside the station, then announce a truce a week later. That kind of hype gets you 2.3 million out the box.
I don't think anyone who's hyped M.I.A. thought she'd sell bushels of the records out the gate. Again, see my very first point.
I THINK YOU'RE MISSING MY ADMITTEDLY CONVOLUTED POINT: I [color:red] NEVER [/color] EQUATED HYPE WITH RECORD SALES, IN FACT, I'M [color:red] CONTRASTING [/color] HYPE AND RECORD SALES AND SAYTING THAT DESPITE THE FACT THAT I HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO COUNTLESS PROGNOSTICATIONS THAT "THIS IS THE ACT THAT WILL FINALLY BREAK UK URBAN MUSIC IN THE US" AND "MIA IS ALREADY THE BIGGEST NEW ACT OF THIS YEAR" OR WHATEVER SIMILAR BLATHER, ALL OF THESE SO-CALLED "INFLUENTIAL" PEOPLE REALLY GOT NO PULL. LESS THAN LIKE A COLLEGE RADIO PROMOTER IN FACT (OUCH!).
THEN, WITH THE INVOLVMENT OF INTERSCOPE, WHO MIGHT I ADD HAS ALSO SIGNED SUCH NON-STARTERS AS HOT KARL AND AHMAD'S CHRISTIAN RAP GROUP FOURTH AVENUE JONES, THE SHIT JUST JUMPED FURTHER INTO OVERDRIVE AND PEOPLE WERE FORCASTING A MASSIVE MAINSTREAM BLOW-UP.
3) To expand on that for a second, recognize that anyone who's cocky enough to call themselves a "tastemaker" isn't interested in making the tastes of Joe Average in Middle America. He or she is trying to set the trend among other trendsters. By the time the bridge and tunnel crowd get a hold of it, that's a sign that said trend is over and done.
You're conflating wanna-be tastemakers with industry strategists. The latter are trying to find artists they can retire off of. The former just want to be able to say they were the first to put an artist on their mix-CD. Two different ambitions.
I just think the idea that bloggers and critics think they can will anything to become popular doesn't exist within those communities.
I SEE YOUR POINT, BUT AGAIN, I THINK THAT YOU ARE ASCRIBING YOUR OWN HUMILITY TO OTHERS WHO DON'T SHARE IT. EITHER WAY, ALOT OF THESE PEOPLE WANT ALOT OF ATTENTION AND RESPECT FROM THE INDUSTRY AND MUSIC LISTENING PUBLIC AT-LARGE AND I'M KIND OF NOT SURE WHY THEY ARE DESERVING OF IT.
4) I think it's totally cool that you hate blogger hype. Yeah, it is an insular community, yeah, it is a circle jerk. But why pay it any mind? It's not like bloggers are really being afforded a special place in the culture industry except by other bloggers. You might have a tiny, tiny amount of celebs out there - like Wonkette or whatever - but complaining about blog hype is like complaining about Okayplayer hype - I think everyone (including those of us inside of it) recognize that our opinions are pretty insular and that the main trends we think we're tracking is amongst ourselves.
SEE ABOVE. I'M ALSO NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT BLOGGING HYPE, I'M (IN A VERY BLOG-LIKE FASHION) BRINGING ATTENTION TO A PHENOMENON, OR WHATEVER. I TOLD OUR MUTUAL FRIEND CARAMANICA A COUPLE MONTHS AGO THAT I THINK BLOGS HAVE BECOME AN ONLINE HALL OF MIRRORS, SO-TO-SPEAK: PEOPLE MAKING COMMENTS ON THE COMMENTS OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMENTING ON THE COMMENTS OF THE ARTICLE THEY WROTE ABOUT THE ARTICLE THAT SOMEONE ELSE WROTE. IF THAT PLEASES SOMEONE, THEY SHOULD GO RIGHT ON AHEAD AND KEEP KEYSTROKING THEIR WAY TO CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME. IT JUST SEEMS LIKE A FRUITLESS PURSUIT TO ME. AREN'T MOST OF YOU BLOGGERS JOURNALISTS (REAL OR ASPIRING)? WOULDN'T YOUR TIME BE BETTER SERVED ATTEMPTING TO REACH OUTSIDE OF THE CIRCLE-JERK AND ENGAGE WITH THE GENERAL CONSUMER/READER?
5) My thing on M.I.A. is this:
I like her album, I like her music. Shit is catchy, it's fun to dance to. And that's about as far as I'll go. I don't find her political sloganeering very affecting but if I can shake my ass to it, that's good enough.
What I don't like about her hype is what my man Jon Caramanica lays down here:
http://slate.com/id/2115958/
DBC - don't get me wrong, I'm tired of the M.I.A. hype too because I think it too glibly treats her as this cute 3rd World revolutionary - Neneh Cherry meets Che Guevera. That's partly M.I.A.'s fault - I mean, she sells herself as such to a certain extent, but you read something like Rob Sheffield's review in Rolling Stone, where he talks about "jump rope rhymes in a war zone" and you just roll your eyes.
AS FRED DURST WOULD SAY, WE ARE "IN AGREEANCE ON THIS", WELL MINUS THE PART ABOUT LIKING THE MUSIC (AND THE PART ABOUT YOU SHAKING YOUR ASS, WHICH FRANKLY SIR, IS TOO MUCH INFORMATION
I'm not remotely mad at Xgau - keep in mind, his column was called "Consumer's Guide" for a long, long time - perhaps at a time when places like the Voice and Rolling Stone actually held some clout in terms of helping push an artist. I know that a lot of folks don't like him too. I used to be more skeptical of his work until I actually bothered to read more of it and having worked with him on a few occassions at the Voice, I've learned to appreciate what he's contributed to the craft of music criticism. That doesn't mean, however, that I agree with his tastes and as someone who came into writing vis a vis thinking about hip-hop (rather than rock), I think there will always be a philosophical distance.
This is important because, as you point out, urban mags like to brag about how they "blew up" certain artists. Rock criticism and hip-hop criticism is very different in this respect...just to reassert this point again, I don't think most rock critics believe that their reviews translates into commercial success. If anything, I've heard most of them bemoan how their opinions seem to make no difference at all since what people buy at the stores is often times, very different from what the writers promote in their reviews.
Now - hip-hop criticism is altogether different because 1) you have artists complaining ALL THE FUCKING TIME that a bad review = "taking money out of my pocket", perhaps one of my all-time favorite whines, 2) the distance b/t criticism and commercialism is far closer, these days, in hip-hop than it is in rock, and 3) writers themselves want to believe that their cheerleading can help blow up an artist.
I do think rap mags can help an artist out: being put on the cover of XXL is not going to hurt your sales. However, I feel that, more and more, the back of the book -w here the reviews are - is practically superfluous to most readers. Maybe you can blame The Source for this: I feel like they watered down their "mics" to the point where no one took that shit seriously anymore and as a result, no one really uses the reviews as a consumer guide. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But these days, I think rap fans have so many other resources to hear an album before buying it (or, ha, downloading it) rather than having to rely on some two-bit hack like me telling them, "The Game is the truth!"
Back to hype/record sales, etc.
My point to you is that I don't think looking at "Arular's" first week of sales in necessarily indicative of anything. I REALLY don't think any of the reviewers who slobbered over M.I.A. actually thought she'd sell a lot of records. What they did hope was that there'd be enough other people out there who'd nod and say, "yeah, you were right, she is cool."
I mean, there's no satisfaction - as a tastemaker - in saying, "hey, maybe you should check out Good Charlotte." However, someone like M.I.A. is hip and different enough from the mainstream that she's the perfect candidate for blogger and critic hype because her sound is different from mainstream pop yet it totally is pop (and let's be honest - her sound might be derivative of other genres like electro, bass, bhangra, baile funk, hip-hop, dancehall, etc. but I think her and her producers put it together beautifully). Throw in the fact that she's brown, exotic/sexy, and rhymes with an accent and she could have been reciting nursery rhymes (oh wait, she kind of is) and she would have gotten all these white male critics/bloggers drooling over her.
SEE NORTHERN STATE. OKAAAAAAY? (and they're not even brown)
I'm still not convinced that M.I.A. won't do better down the road, but her's will be slow build, not a rocket to the top.
Back to hype one last time -
what annoys me, and perhaps this is what you're responding to as well, is that blog hype - in particular - often takes on this haughty attitude of, "oh, you didn't know about M.I.A. [or any other artist clocking time on the hipster dime] already? Dear boy, where have you been...?"
I'm not remotely mad at Xgau - keep in mind, his column was called "Consumer's Guide" for a long, long time - perhaps at a time when places like the Voice and Rolling Stone actually held some clout in terms of helping push an artist. I know that a lot of folks don't like him too. I used to be more skeptical of his work until I actually bothered to read more of it and having worked with him on a few occassions at the Voice, I've learned to appreciate what he's contributed to the craft of music criticism. That doesn't mean, however, that I agree with his tastes and as someone who came into writing vis a vis thinking about hip-hop (rather than rock), I think there will always be a philosophical distance.
[color:purple] WORD, IT IS SOMEWHAT TANGENTIAL OF ME TO LASH OUT AT XGAU..I AM AWARE OT HIS IMPORTANCE IN THE PANTHEON OF MUSIC WRITERS, BUT I REALLY THINK HE SHOULD NEVER WRITE ABOUT HIP-HOP EVER. HE SEEMS TO LOOOOOOOVE ANY PRETENTIOUS WHITE INDY RAP THAT COMES HIS WAY AND RECENTLY WROTE THIS ABSURD ARTICLE REGARDING THE PERCEPTIONISTS WHERE HE DECRIED THE WHITE PUBLIC'S LOVE OF VIOLENT RAP, MAKING THE VALID POINT THAT MOST OF US HONKIES BUY RAP THAT CONFORMS WITH OUR STEREOTYPES OF BLACK FOLKS (IN THIS CASE VIOLENT, GREEDY), BUT HE FAILED ENTIRELY TO SEE THAT HIS OWN ARTICLE WAS GUILTY OF THE SAME REDUCTIVE TENDENCY: IN THIS CASE HE WAS BASICALLY APPOINTING SOME "GOOD NEGROES" WHOSE WORLD-VIEW ECHOES THAT OF THE WRITER AND OF THE BUCK65-TYPE CRAP THAT HE LAUDS. BUT LEAVING THIS OLD JERK ASIDE...[/color]
This is important because, as you point out, urban mags like to brag about how they "blew up" certain artists. Rock criticism and hip-hop criticism is very different in this respect...just to reassert this point again, I don't think most rock critics believe that their reviews translates into commercial success. If anything, I've heard most of them bemoan how their opinions seem to make no difference at all since what people buy at the stores is often times, very different from what the writers promote in their reviews.
Now - hip-hop criticism is altogether different because 1) you have artists complaining ALL THE FUCKING TIME that a bad review = "taking money out of my pocket", perhaps one of my all-time favorite whines, 2) the distance b/t criticism and commercialism is far closer, these days, in hip-hop than it is in rock, and 3) writers themselves want to believe that their cheerleading can help blow up an artist.
I do think rap mags can help an artist out: being put on the cover of XXL is not going to hurt your sales. However, I feel that, more and more, the back of the book -w here the reviews are - is practically superfluous to most readers. Maybe you can blame The Source for this: I feel like they watered down their "mics" to the point where no one took that shit seriously anymore and as a result, no one really uses the reviews as a consumer guide. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But these days, I think rap fans have so many other resources to hear an album before buying it (or, ha, downloading it) rather than having to rely on some two-bit hack like me telling them, "The Game is the truth!"
[color:purple]HERE WE ARE IN ABSOLUTE AGREEMENT. I THINK HIP-HOP CRITICISM IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALLGAME, AND I THINK IT WAS FAR MORE VALID BEFORE THE SOURCE DID THINGS LIKE GIVE SMIF AND WESSON TWO-AND-A-HALF MICS. I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO PAYS ATTENTION TO THAT SHIT. BUT AGAIN, I THINK YOU GIVE ROCK CRITICS TOO MUCH LEEWAY. I HAVE WITNESSED FIRST-HAND A GREAT DEAL OF SELF-IMPORTANT BEHAVIOR BY THESE FOLKS OVER THE YEARS, AND THEY CERTAINLY ACT LIKE THEY SHOULD BE KOWTOWED TO BECAUSE OF THEIR INFLUENCE (SEE THROWING TANTRUMS AT PARTIES/CONCERTS, I WAS WORKING THE DOOR AT/THROWING OR WITNESSING THE INTERACTIONS BETWEEN LABEL PUBLICISTS AND WRITERS...A SORDID DANCE IF EVER THERE WAS ONE). [/color]
Back to hype/record sales, etc.
My point to you is that I don't think looking at "Arular's" first week of sales in necessarily indicative of anything. I REALLY don't think any of the reviewers who slobbered over M.I.A. actually thought she'd sell a lot of records. What they did hope was that there'd be enough other people out there who'd nod and say, "yeah, you were right, she is cool."
[color:purple] WELL NO OLIVER, IT'S INDICATIVE OF MY POINT: THAT ALL OF THIS HYPE DOESN'T INFLUENCE SHIT. SO WHETHER THE REVIEWERS INTENT WAS TO INFLUENCE SALES OR NOT, I'M SIMPLY STATING THAT ALL OF THIS GAS HAS, SO FAR, NOT AMOUNTED TO A HILL OF BEANS. THAT WAS MY ONLY CONTENTION: THAT IT IS SILLY TO THINK THESE FOLKS HAVE PULL OUTSIDE OF THEIR GATED COMMUNITY OF THE TOO-COOL. [/color]
I mean, there's no satisfaction - as a tastemaker - in saying, "hey, maybe you should check out Good Charlotte." However, someone like M.I.A. is hip and different enough from the mainstream that she's the perfect candidate for blogger and critic hype because her sound is different from mainstream pop yet it totally is pop (and let's be honest - her sound might be derivative of other genres like electro, bass, bhangra, baile funk, hip-hop, dancehall, etc. but I think her and her producers put it together beautifully). Throw in the fact that she's brown, exotic/sexy, and rhymes with an accent and she could have been reciting nursery rhymes (oh wait, she kind of is) and she would have gotten all these white male critics/bloggers drooling over her.
SEE NORTHERN STATE. OKAAAAAAY? (and they're not even brown)
[color:purple] I TOTALLY SEE WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM HERE, IT WOULD BE REAL BORING TO WRITE ABOUT KELLY CLARKSON ALL DAY LONG. BUT, NORTHERN STATE IS ALSO A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF MY POINT: THAT PEOPLE LIKE XGAU AND ALL THE OTHER FOLLS AND IDOITS WHO JUMPED ON THE BANDWAGON ARE JUST OUT OF TOUCH AND FRANKLY HAVE TASTE THAT IS SO POLITICIZED (RATHER THAN BEING BASED MERELY ON THE QUALITY OF THE MUSIC, CUZ CMON IT'S HARD TO ARGUE THAT NORTHERN STATE DON'T SUCK), THAT I DON'T KNOW WHY ANYONE TAKES 'EM SERIOUSLY. [/color]
I'm still not convinced that M.I.A. won't do better down the road, but her's will be slow build, not a rocket to the top.
[color:purple] AGREED, I SAID THE SAME THING. I JUST THINK FOLKS (ON THIS SITE FOR INSTANCE) REALLY BELEIVED THAT THIS CHICK WOULD COME OUT IN TO THE MARKET LIKE GANGBUSTERS. AS I SAID, IF INTERSCOPE PUTS THEIR MUSCLE BEHIND IT, IT WILL SELL. HOWEVER, EVEN THE MIGHTY INTERSCOPE WILL HAVE TO CONTEND WITH HER POOR SHOWING AT RETAIL AND THAT WILL MEAN THROWING A HUGE AMOUNT INTO CO-OPS WITH THE CHAINS AND HUGE AMOUNTS INTO RADIO...WHICH WILL MEAN THAT MS. MIA WILL BE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS UNRECOUPED (PLUS ADVANCE) AND SO EVEN IF SHE DOES SELL, SHE'LL BE A FINANCIAL LOSS, WHICH JUST KIND OF SUCKS. IF THIS HADN'T BEEN BLOWN UP SO BIG AND SHE HADN'T SIGNED WITH A MAJOR, THESE SALES WOULD HAVE BEEN SEEN AS A (QUALIFIED) SUCCESS AND SHE MIGHT MAKE SOME MONEY AT THE END OF THE DAY. [/color]
Back to hype one last time -
what annoys me, and perhaps this is what you're responding to as well, is that blog hype - in particular - often takes on this haughty attitude of, "oh, you didn't know about M.I.A. [or any other artist clocking time on the hipster dime] already? Dear boy, where have you been...?"
[color:purple] UH HUH, AND MY RESPONSE IS "WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU, AND WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN"...THE BLOGOSPHERE (GOD, I GOTTA STOP USING THAT WORD) IS FILLED WITH NEWJACKS TRYING TO ASSERT THEIR POSITION AS EXPERTS, AND FRANKLY SIR, I'M JUST NOT BUYING IT. [/color]
Oh dude, you do misunderstand me. I'm not forgiving rock critics at all - I frankly can't stand most of them and that little diva-ass behavior you describe is some shit I've witnessed more times than I can care for. I'd MUCH rather hang out with a hip-hop writer any day of the week since most of them tend to be far more humble, down-to-earth, and passionate about rap than any ironic rock critic I know. Not to say there aren't some asshole hip-hop writers or some cool rock writers - far from it.
My point though is that rock critics - THESE DAYS - have resigned themselves to the fact that their opinions don't move in the marketplace. I'm sure someone like Jim DeRogatis has wet dreams that his Ryan Adams screeds actually influence people not to go to his shows (and to his dumb ass credit, Adams responds to DeRogatis as if that were true too) but the dudes I talk to are all well-aware that their opinions don't mean jack when it comes to the buying tastes of the average 17 year old, except on those rare occassions when they manage to pick something populist to cheer, like Kanye.
That doesn't mean rock critics aren't overblown on ego. But rather, their ego is focused other places. That was my whole breakdown of the difference between a tastemaker for hipsters and a strategist for the mass market. Rock critics fancy themselves the arbitrators of good taste but a necessary corollary to that is their belief that THE PUBLIC DOESN'T HAVE GOOD TASTE, and to prove this, they point their finger at the fact that Britney and Nelly sell lots of records while The Streets and Northern State do not.
Z-man - believe me, we're in complete agreement about most of this. I'm just splitting a hair though and arguing that M.I.A.'s hype machine never proceeded on the belief that she'd be a hit with the general public, but rather, that she's going to be the "It" girl for all the cool people. And I PROMISE YOU that her album will be Top 10 of the Pazz and Jop 2005.
This goes back to your point here:
Well, I agree but again, I'm not sure which folks actually think they have pull outside of their gated community of the too-cool. My argument is that said folks are trying to speak to other people in that little cluster fuck but aren't trying to connect to too many folks outside of that circle.
Yeah man, Northern State was a great example of how badly many rock critics hate hip-hop that they'll go to any lengths to champion rap music that doesn't conform to their worst stereotypes about "what rap music sounds like today." That's why I'm really feeling Kalefah's hustle at the NYT. This is a guy, writing for the most powerful daily in the nation, big upping 50 Cent and Killa. That's pretty fucking wild to me, at least compared to the years that came before.
Judging by the above statements, one could very convincingly argue that SoulStrut is in fact the world's largest online music blog.
And you both make an excellent point about the Source and their watered-down mic ratings. Honestly, I don't even like the star/mic system to begin with. Years ago, I had an editor at a copywriting job who had a well-founded disdain for exclamation points. His stance was that the sentence itself, if well-penned, should be the exclamation. That's how I feel about putting three stars directly above an actual review of a record. What, is 100 words just too much for you to read?
Then again, as a writer often saddled with the task of having to sum up an entire LP--sometimes two--in 100 words or less, I can see how writers might want to lean on just such a crutch. But back to O-Dub's very salient point: Who reads these reviews, anyways? I think it's safe to say that they're read by:
1. DJs
2. Other musicians/artists
3. Writers and/or bloggers
4. PR folks
5. Me and other patients in the waiting room
I don't think that people are consulting Rolling Stone to see how to spend that $15 they have earmarked for their weekly CD purchase. (Wait, do people still pay for CDs? Oh, yeah...people only buy "mixtapes," right?
And finally: Why is that, after reading this thread, I seem to be responding in a DBC/O-Dub style and fashion?
- Ross (a wetmouth)
That was me. I wasn't trying to dis Des Moines - I've never been there, so it could be a fine town for all I know. I just picked it as a random example of somewhere well away from the established cultural and artistic hubs, if you will, of the US music scene. In other words, the kind of place where you need to be selling a lot of records to even have a chance of blowing up.
So for real.
Well, actually, OKP would disagree with that but I think we can all agree...
Soul Strut has better taste. (Now watch the ST and GP forums fire back).
I think ratings can be useful when:
1) The ratings and copy actually coincide. There are so many cases where a writer will clearly describe an album with middling language but it still gets 4 stars or whatever. Or vice versa: albums that are clearly being lauded but the ratings are mediocre.
2) A magazine has enough credibility to make their ratings trustworthy. I don't think Ego Trip ever had a ratings system, but if they had, I would have been confident that a 2 star album would have gotten 2 stars.
Question: has any album ever gotten 1 mic or a "S" in the Source or XXL respectively? Is that when the guns come out?
I don't know that I've ever seen that in the Source or XXL. It used to be that ultra-indie shit--i.e. releases that the magazines could afford to pan without jeopardizing their relationships with the label--would occasionally get those really low ratings in Vibe, but they don't really even bother to review that type of thing anymore.
I'm pretty sure both Chilly Tee's album and Young MC's second album got 1.5 mics in The Source. I would also venture a guess that guns did not come out as a result (Jesse Washington, hold ya head).
Yeah, I remember the Chilly Tee for sure.
I would love to see that dude's shoe collection. It must be absurd.
you dudes are on biter status.
happy sunday.
I have elegant taste
I have elegant taste
I have elegant taste
I have elegant taste
I have elegant taste