Election Predictions?

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  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,871 Posts
    Jimster said:
    The left are unarmed because assault rifles are hard to come by over here.
    Unless you are a nonce with friends in the right places.



    kicks79

  • DuderonomyDuderonomy Haut de la Garenne 7,555 Posts
    Right wing Euro dudes need to get their gun ownership rates up if they really want to compete in the coming wars. 
    Oh.


  • JuniorJunior 4,853 Posts
    bassie2 said:
    Not everyone who votes for these people are racists and sexists. 
    Humour me - what is the point of attempting to make this distinction?


    Hi Bassie,

    Sorry for the late reply, I know people have replied to this since but it was a very throwaway comment so I'll try to explain a bit more what I meant by this.

    Before Brexit, there was an assumption in the "Centre" and "Left" (and I use these terms very generally) media and political figures that when it came to the crunch people would vote for what the governing elite recommended, the sensible choice. To vote for what was good for the population on a whole and to trust them to know best, especially as the alternative was steeped in unpleasant rhetoric and finger pointing, something that we as a nation know better than to fall for.

    As part of this assumption there was a continued dismissal of the very vocal and very visible people offering the other view. They were led by obnoxious, slightly farcical, (generally) men who spouted a mixture of lies and mock indignation about the state of the country, where the jobs were going, etc. It wasn't steeped in such shocking terms as Trump and his white power manifesto but it wasn't that far off with fingers being pointed at eastern Europeans, the refugees and so on (this was a vote on immigration despite it having very little to do with the topic on hand).
    These people actually actively railed against the governing elite (despite being members themselves) and came up with lines such as "I think people are tired of experts" when their fake statistics were challenged by people who knew better. This kind of statement was widely mocked in the media but actually rang true to a lot of people - when your personal situation is crap you get tired of hearing experts telling you how we have to pull together for other people, tired of people ignoring the genuine issues that come from high levels of immigration, tired of eloquent speeches calmly made, you want anger and you want to be heard. You also don't want to be belittled everytime you turn on the tv and see people mocking you or sniggering at your genuine anger and feelings of helplesness. 

    Stacks covered this beautifully above so I won't go over it in more detail again but to me this is where the issue lies. I'm certainly not saying that a majority of these people aren't racist or sexist at least on some level and I also don't deny that, by empowering Trump (which is an abhorrent act and genuinely frightening) the others who voted for him aren't also endorsing these views. I just feel that people, including myself, assumed that because we were ok and made small personal sacrifices, everyone else would also be happy with that. And they're not. And the only way they could show that was to vote for the people who were also angry and appeared to speak to or for them on some level. To stop this we have to work out how to reflect the needs of the many. I have no idea how to do that but it's the reason for the increasing rise of populism across the whole western world right now and stepping out of the echo chamber is a good first step.

    kicks79

  • dukeofdelridgedukeofdelridge urgent.monkey.mice 2,441 Posts
    Again, please: people who didn't vote for Donald Trump are more to blame for Donald Trump than people who did vote for Donald Trump? That's what you're telling me? 

    At at least we can agree that President Donald Trump is a problem. Right? 

  • JuniorJunior 4,853 Posts
    I don't think that's what I'm implying above. This isn't just handwringing about how the enlightened were unable to properly tutor the ignorant masses.

    I'm saying that this has been building for some time and there was the standard assumption that the angry and disillusioned would suck it up or that it wouldn't matter as they are all mental and backwards. And this has backfired massively. This doesn't remove any of the blame from the fuck ups that voted for Trump, but the ignoring of the situation to this point didn't help matters. And continuing to just blame this decision on rednecks is not going to make things better. The fact that people weren't motivated to vote to keep Trump out speaks high volumes to me.

    Anyway, yes, Trump is a massive problem. Not only for what he does but what he represents an endorsement of. I can only hope that he turns out to be more hot air and populism than an evangelist like Cruz.

  • sticky_dojahsticky_dojah New York City. 2,131 Posts
    Junior said:

    And the only way they could show that was to vote for the people who were also angry and appeared to speak to or for them on some level. To stop this we have to work out how to reflect the needs of the many. I have no idea how to do that but it's the reason for the increasing rise of populism across the whole western world right now and stepping out of the echo chamber is a good first step.

    I agree, but this is so difficult. I don't know who phrased it - it's been going around in my echo chamber, but the statement was "Not all of Trump supporters are racist, but all of them decided that racism isn't a deal breaker." That pretty much summed it up for me. Makes it very hard to "reach out and debate" with these people.

  • JimsterJimster Let go me ting, duppy, let go me hand 6,532 Posts
    I read an informative piece on why he got in here:

    http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

    Well worth a read.

    Doesn't change the fact that he has no idea of how to miraculously turn around the fortunes of these folks, or that his election endorses insert-ophobia and insert-ism and validates pussy grabbing and tax evasion as locker room banter, but that helped me to understand why he's in.

    tl;dr : BREXIT

  • foefoe turo de la peira 189 Posts
    Junior said:

    And the only way they could show that was to vote for the people who were also angry and appeared to speak to or for them on some level. To stop this we have to work out how to reflect the needs of the many. I have no idea how to do that but it's the reason for the increasing rise of populism across the whole western world right now and stepping out of the echo chamber is a good first step.

    I agree, but this is so difficult. I don't know who phrased it - it's been going around in my echo chamber, but the statement was "Not all of Trump supporters are racist, but all of them decided that racism isn't a deal breaker." That pretty much summed it up for me. Makes it very hard to "reach out and debate" with these people.
    you should try being real poor. suddenly racism stops being a deal breaker all together as long as you are not the victim of it. it's a matter of perception of real choices in the end. the problem is that they are are willing as you to reach out and debate.

  • sticky_dojahsticky_dojah New York City. 2,131 Posts
    foe said:
    Junior said:

    And the only way they could show that was to vote for the people who were also angry and appeared to speak to or for them on some level. To stop this we have to work out how to reflect the needs of the many. I have no idea how to do that but it's the reason for the increasing rise of populism across the whole western world right now and stepping out of the echo chamber is a good first step.

    I agree, but this is so difficult. I don't know who phrased it - it's been going around in my echo chamber, but the statement was "Not all of Trump supporters are racist, but all of them decided that racism isn't a deal breaker." That pretty much summed it up for me. Makes it very hard to "reach out and debate" with these people.
    you should try being real poor. suddenly racism stops being a deal breaker all together as long as you are not the victim of it. it's a matter of perception of real choices in the end. the problem is that they are are willing as you to reach out and debate.
    Poverty, just like wealth, never justifies being an asshole.

  • It may not justify it but it makes it a lot more likely/possible in people who would otherwise not vote for/be assholes.

  • foefoe turo de la peira 189 Posts
    foe said:
    Junior said:

    And the only way they could show that was to vote for the people who were also angry and appeared to speak to or for them on some level. To stop this we have to work out how to reflect the needs of the many. I have no idea how to do that but it's the reason for the increasing rise of populism across the whole western world right now and stepping out of the echo chamber is a good first step.

    I agree, but this is so difficult. I don't know who phrased it - it's been going around in my echo chamber, but the statement was "Not all of Trump supporters are racist, but all of them decided that racism isn't a deal breaker." That pretty much summed it up for me. Makes it very hard to "reach out and debate" with these people.
    you should try being real poor. suddenly racism stops being a deal breaker all together as long as you are not the victim of it. it's a matter of perception of real choices in the end. the problem is that they are are willing as you to reach out and debate.
    Poverty, just like wealth, never justifies being an asshole.
    i just don't see any point in empathy if you can't handle that people have fundamentally different opinions than you. if you want to reach out and debate then you have to talk to them on their terms. dismissing then before you start is just about making it comfy for yourself.



  • DuderonomyDuderonomy Haut de la Garenne 7,555 Posts
    Also, South Park season 20 is killing it. I thought Trump was beyond satire.
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